male inequality and why I don't feel comfy as a man anymore.

[Akashic_Librarian]

This is mostly for British and American men:

We, as a society, have slowly and methodically poisoned our young womens minds into believing Men are the root of all Evil, and our young Mens mind into believing they are wrong for being masculine. A (sadly) common thing to happen, more in the US of A than in Britain, but it still does occur over here, is that when a man holds a door for woman, rather than a polite "Thank you" and the reply "Your welcome" a good natured smile and a brighter day, you get "I don't need a man holding the door for me", "Chauvunist(sp?) Pig" etc...etc...

Further more, and far more seriously, Men are constantly dehumanised in family courts, Feminist ideals have meant that men are seen as incompetent parents, and at worst an optional thing to have in a family, Single Mothers, once the image of unfortunate circumstances, accidents, or just downright unwholesome people, are now seen as pioneers, casting of the shackles of the opressive man, forging a new path for the little child who will no doubt grow up with some kind of social dysfunction, sexually confused, or a man hater. (Not my opinion, actual figures show that Children are more likely to be sexually confused, disruptive or have defective Schema when it comes to men and women).

Why is this? Why are men being so opressed. Is it because feminists (and lets admit it boys, most women) think we are inferior? Or is it just the social conditioning we have all undergone - and as a matter of interest, I have yet to see an Episode of Two and Half Men, Everybody Loves Raymond, King of Queens, Fraiser, Lab Rats, The IT crowd, Peep Show, Family Guy, The Simpsons etc...etc... where the man was not stupid, evil, incompetent, crass, rude, lazy, boring, drole, or [insert favourite insult].

Secondly our education system is heavily geared towards women. It is psychologically and scientifically proven men and women have different wiring in their heads, we think differently and learn differently, Men respond better to male teachers, and women respond better to female teachers, yet schools are going out of their way to make sure MORE women are being hired. That despite a deluge of evidence, the Governments of our respective countries refuse to change the teaching methods to provide equal balance to boys and girls, and leave it favouring Girls, which can no longer be ignored because the academic achievment gap is growing steadily, and alarmingly, vast between men and women - women scoring higher.

I don't feel comfortable being a man anymore, I don't feel comfortable expressing male emotions such as strength, courage, anger and instead have to wonder, might my sexual jokes offend the women around me?

Further more, I have to make sure I don't seem TOO dominant, because that might, again, upset the women around me.

TV tells me and the 6 billion others on the planet, that - as a male - I am not allowed to make decisions without a womans consent, I am not intelligent enough to look after children, and I am far too insensetive to ever understand the complex emotions of a woman.

However and I am excluded from deciding if a baby I have, in part concieved, should be aborted or not. However, should the baby be born, without my consent, should I not wish to stay with the mother I have to pay dutifully through the nose to pay for said baby, while the mother can live comfortably on my earings. But wait...theres more folks....

My government, the Feminist loving cowards that they are, are quite happy to give every single mother a free home, and constant benefits until the mother is ready to go back to work. Should a man have the child on his own, its tough. Should a man want time off from work to raise his newborn, then he's being unreasonable and is not allowed.

But the most beautiful thing is whenever this argument is raised, all I am seen to be is a stupid man who doesn't know that women have equal rights now, and do you know what? It makes me sick to live in a world where I have to cower in fear everytime a women deems me a sexist, where I can't hold doors open, or offer to do heavy lifting, because its not fair, and the most horrifying thing is, as far as society is concerned my role in parenthood is negligible if not obselete.

Now I know most people on this forum are smart enough to recognize men and womens differences and celebrate it - but I am not talking about the smart ones here, I am talking about the millions of sheep out There, what can we do, as both men and women, to stop the stereotyping of men and perhaps see our way back to true equality - the real goal of early feminism, before it became the Female Supremacy farce it is today.

[Angela]

I am sorry for your pain. What are you going to do with it?

[Alexjstrandberg]

great post. I wrote this for my website and posted it on this forum and got arguments and sarcasm thrown my way. It wasn't an oppressive article just one to get men to be men again but without the abuse of the 1950's.

[ns123]

Akashic_Librarian:

You are not alone. There is a whole community of people (many women) who agree with you, including me. Yes, everything you talk about, the demonizing of men, the biasness in the family courts, the feminizing of th public schools, these things are recognized as problems now.

There is a whole movement out there, and there are women championing that cause. There are swathes of women, mostly of conservative and libertarian persuasion, who are creating awareness of this and championing this cause.

Dr. Helen - Dr. Helen is one.
There are many others, but no name comes to mind except hers at the moment.

Have faith. Step 1 is admitting we have a problem, and there are men AND women out there who have done this. And many of them are already working towards changing this attitude about men.

There is hope.

[songwriter]

Yeah, well, feminist turned into sexism too so not it's like male chauvinism vs female chauvinism... instead of equality we have double trouble. Very sad.

What I do? not to be a sexist man or to be much with them and not be much with sexist women or to have a sexist couple.

It's like racism but about gender. I think it's even worse than racism these days, there seem to be even kind of gender alliances in some groups of people to fight each other...

I guess not here, lol...

If you notice there are for man and woman similar barriers that there were for race. We go into different public toilets. Yes!, I think it's silly... or different dressing rooms... or there are laws with different effect depending on sex. We are separated in many things for rules.

There are even schools for women and for men, etc. It's the racism that MLK fought, but turned into sexism.

"I have a dream" though.

[Dannyboy1]

When I walk in the room, my wife hands over the remote.

It's true, she literally does, but don't tell her I said that.

[AndreiR]

Completely agree. With a twist: you SHOULD feel "comfy" as a man. What other people think about you is their problem, not yours. Everyone has the right to pursue happiness, remember?
The constitution doesn't say "except if you're a man!"

Yes, there's a lot of brainwashing out there in the media.
Part of the problem is probably the fact that women basically "hold the strings to the purse" in the average household -- well basically 85% of the consumer money is in women's hands (can't remember where I read this figure, but there is a strong bias). Thus, high-rating shows with their high-paid commercial space, are geared towards female audiences. Left unchecked over a large number of years, a small bias at first turned into the ugly picture that we see today. Double standards abound.
Plus, a good woman knows and appreciates a good man. A good woman is happy when a man is a man! So I'd also say: stop complaining! Be a man! Regardless of what people will say about you. That's what I do, and I couldn't be happier (I'd also suggest reading Steve's post about being a man).

Now, if only we could get some tens or hundreds of millions of people not to trust TV shows so much... I've seen too many of them trusting the tube, and personally I've come to realize that everything on TV is agenda-driven. So I never watch it anymore.

[songwriter]

Hey, you could notice one thing.

In a situation of mistreat (like a man mistreating a woman)... who's suffering?, the agressor or the mistreated person? Both!

I mean even if there are a majority of women mistreating men, you wouldn't be better being a women and mistreating men, you know.
I don't like it if I ever mistreat people.
we all suffer for this, like racism was bad for black and for whites.

Being a women you would have to suffer the sexist, mistreating men anyway... I think lots of women here could tell you not very funny stories about it...

I don't think there are more women mistreating men than viceversa. So I think you're still lucky anyway. And I'm lucky, still there is **** around for women and men, I mean in both ways. And maybe thinking the other option (if you were a woman) is not much better or doesn't mean being happier may not uplift you at all.

It's like, hey I'm poor, but he's poor too. What a relief... but well, today women (I mean averages) have more depressions than men. They're less happy with their lifes, etc. Even in The Simpsons and Family guy, the guys are happier than the women too.

[Akashic_Librarian]

I appreciate there is a large group of people championing TRUE equality for the sexes, but still I don't think is high-profile enough.

Something i have just remember now that highlights the bias of the media more than anything is a women was falsely accused of being a Peadophile because a Criminal Background check was done incorrectly and someone else file came up, well all the little village geared up behind her and she got her job as a school assistant and all was well as far as the BBC was concerned, in fact it took the precious time to condone the Government for being so careless.

Of course a little before this happened a man, in a similar situation, was forced into police protection from the media and angry citizens of a small village in herefordshire (or some such place) and was refused his job as a janitor, DESPITE the falsified criminal records check, and even after being apologised too and fulled removed of all blame and guilt, he was STILL refused his job because Parents didn't feel safe with him in the school.

Bias or what?

[Angela]

...what can we do, as both men and women, to stop the stereotyping of men and perhaps see our way back to true equality - the real goal of early feminism, before it became the Female Supremacy farce it is today.

So would you like to make a difference, or would you just like to complain?

If you are uncomfortable being a man or being a woman, well, that's reality, baby, and even if you got a sex change operation you'd still be dealing with some heavy angst, probably worse than now. Maybe you'd just like to feel heard, and that's fine and it probably makes a contribution to make others who share your view feel like they're not alone.

But being on the attack, like referring to feminists as being part of a Female Supremacy farce, I guarantee you, is not going to get women aligned with your quest of stopping the stereotyping of men and seeing our way to true equality. Just the opposite, I think, as you are boldly creating the very thing you object to -- unfair stereotyping. Just like when women go on the offensive about their gender discomfort and unleash vile comments about the nastiness of men in general.

You may see yourself as powerless in the depths of despair about this topic, but in reality you have all the power in the world -- to generate inspiration, or to generate resistance. You get to choose.

And I'm with you either way.

[Dannyboy1]

I believe it's okay for us to be different. People take some things way too seriously. Two and a Half men makes fun of both men and women, as do most sitcoms. It's your decision to watch it or not and how you interpret it is up to you as well. If you want to spend your time angry about things, that's your prerogative. I understand your points and many of them are true, but I'm not going to let it make my life any less wonderful by stewing about it.

[Geiger]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

A (sadly) common thing to happen, more in the US of A than in Britain, but it still does occur over here, is that when a man holds a door for woman, rather than a polite "Thank you" and the reply "Your welcome" a good natured smile and a brighter day, you get "I don't need a man holding the door for me", "Chauvunist(sp?) Pig" etc...etc...

Have you actually experienced this for yourself?

I think that once you start to play the victim card, then it's really going downhill. Be secure in yourself, and don't bother what everybody else thinks - hold the door open because you want to, not because you want to please her. If she reacts badly it's her problem, not yours.

[Wet]

This first problem I see is the thread title...

"I don't feel comfy as a man anymore"

Comfy?



When did being a "real man" ever have anything to do with being comfortable?

When did being a person have to do with not overcoming challenges and just being comfortable?

Further more, I have to make sure I don't seem TOO dominant, because that might, again, upset the women around me.

You aren't dominant, you are "seeming" to be dominant, theres the problem.

That "Might" upset someone? "Might" as in "maybe" as in you actually don't know but are just going to play it on the safe side and stay "comfy"?

How many times have you ever upset someone by being dominant? Actually, whats your definition of dominate?


I dance, In fact I'm going to a dance tonight, I'm going to be dominant throughout the entire dance, in fact, I'm not going to let the woman lead ONCE. I'll let you know how it turns out.


Could you give us examples of when this Male/Female inequality has effected you? Other than of course giving you a reason not take risks.

[Tigerlilly]

I wonder when would you be happy? When the whole world looked like Sparta from the movie 300?

And then, if you actually took King Leonidas, plucked him right out of Sparta and put him into the present times, what would he do? Go about bemoaning men's inequality and how he doesn't feel comfy being a man?

And if I remember correctly(at least from the movie) they sent the Spartans into the wild out on their own (repeat: out on their own, as in not with a keep-your-bum-comfy back-up) and only if they made it out there, were they real warriors and kings. Being out in the wild in modern times includes the whole show, all of the daily living survival stuff, and doing it all without bemoaning your fate in life.

I can't imagine the moan&groan coming from a guy who's self-reliant and self-sufficient and just does his own thing and doesn't need or want a back-up to keep his life comfy while he's doing whatever he's doing. To me the ones doing the moan&groan are not the ones who got their spores out in the wild, not the warriors and kings, it's the ones who feel they can't do it or simply don't want to do it without the keep-you-comfy back-up.

And it's from this corner that I also see the voice coming that actually then goes and takes female back-up of the keep-things-comfy kind as a God-granted privilege, and then, one step even further down that road, the voice that women only lived to serve men and men's mission in life.

Just my personal pov, nothing "we" about it.

[ns123]

Originally Posted by Tigerlilly

I wonder when would you be happy?
...

Tigerlilly,

since you quoted me above, were you referring to me?
If you were referring to me, I object as to where you would infer that I am not happy.
If you were not referring to me, ok, I was just confused and have no objection.

-NS

[Tigerlilly]

Originally Posted by ns123

Tigerlilly,

since you quoted me above, were you referring to me?
If you were referring to me, I object as to where you would infer that I am not happy.
If you were not referring to me, ok, I was just confused and have no objection.

-NS

Nope, I wasn't referring to you. Sorry, but I'd edited the text and then the quote really didn't fit anymore so I removed it now to avoid further misunderstanding.

Reading what has been written here on true equality I also wonder whether I really caught the meaning that AL wanted to express in his original post.

Fact is I just don't see men as being oppressed these days, and getting a smile&thank you for holding the door open to a woman has nothing to do with equality in my eyes. What does expressing emotions such as strength, courage, anger have to do with making sexual jokes? What does equality have to do with pointing out that in past times women leaving men were marked as outcasts?

Nothing of it sounds like a call for true equality in my ears, but a call for the "good old days", when male polarity ruled society. Now, if Spartan guys really lived like in the movies, they must have been total psychos, but it is the most male energy polarised society I can think of right now. Like if you secretly dream of your wife rolling out the red carpet on your way to the bathroom and strewing rose petals before your feet, I guess it'd be the kind of total male dominance you're gunning for.

And the way I see it, in that world going on about how hard life is for guys would be out of question. Going on a moan&groan trip has nothing to do with expressing strength, has it? You wouldn't get understanding and compassion, you'd get kicked in the bum and told to get your act together and stop being a sissy.

[lasti]

I can't agree with anything you said.
Man opressed? Who does lead the most countries of the world? Who does lead the most enterprises of the world?
In fact, women aren't even equal yet: In Germany (!) women earn 22% less then men in the same jobs... This is just another point of view. You see the problem is maybe bigger than you think...
There are always problems in society with groups. Black and white, male and female, natives and strangers, protestants and catholics. One mistreats the other and vice versa (aggresion produces agression) and both are unhappy (like songwriter said).
We can discuss a lot about all the facts and problems but the only solution is unconditional love and acceptance. We're all one. When we have understood this, we don't need these wars anymore.

Your problem doesn't arise from some outer conditions or from an equality issue. It's actually you: I feel that you have problems with stereotypes and the expectations of society.
The thing is, no one feels comfortable with stereotypes. So if you want to feel comfortable, you have to free yourself from them. Be the one who you are! You can't wait for the society to stop judging or you might have to wait another few thousand years of history (and that's quite long...). If you want that to happen a bit faster, you could learn to love unconditionally.

[songwriter]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Bias or what?

Bias, of course. For being a criminal men are always most suspected to be, also to be leaders or to be in charge of anything.
How many of the most watched movies (of Hollywood, US movies) have a woman as the main character... ... well... "Gone With The Wind"... and that's all. If you want to do a movie that earns a lot the superhero has to be a man... Scarlett is alone against Superman, Indiana Jones, Neo, Luke Skywalker, Frodo, Batman, Harry Potter, Jack Sparrow, Spiderman, Shrek, James Bond, Rambo, Forrest Gump...

bias? are men better to... "save the world" and things like that...

[lasti]

Originally Posted by songwriter

Bias, of course. For being a criminal men are always most suspected to be, also to be leaders or to be in charge of anything.
How many of the most watched movies (of Hollywood, US movies) have a woman as the main character... ... well... "Gone With The Wind"... and that's all. If you want to do a movie that earns a lot the superhero has to be a man... Scarlett is alone against Superman, Indiana Jones, Neo, Luke Skywalker, Frodo, Batman, Harry Potter, Jack Sparrow, Spiderman, Shrek, James Bond, Rambo, Forrest Gump...

bias? are men better to... "save the world" and things like that...

And women who save the world have often men's traits: Like Alice from Resident Evil (love that film ).

[ns123]

I, for one, loved the movie 300.

I saw it as a movie about freedom, about principles, and about true courage - when you have everything to lose. Others may not see it so, but of course, we all frame our interpretations from our views of the world. Just because they end up going to war is of no consequence to me. The process is the same. A small group of individuals standing up for what they believe in.

I disagree with the poster that deny that a male disadvantage does not exist. Just because you have not experienced it does not mean it does not exist. Just because the captains of industry have normally been male does not mean male disadvantage does not exist in other areas. Maybe it doesn't exist in business in those particular industries, but it does exist in other areas.


That said, what can be done about it? It's not my calling, so I'm actually not taking any action to do anything about it. Hey, we can't be everything, we all have our priorities. But there are people out there where this is their calling and they are trying to balance the scales. And some of them happen to be women.

[Tigerlilly]

Originally Posted by ns123

I, for one, loved the movie 300.

I saw it as a movie about freedom, about principles, and about true courage - when you have everything to lose. Others may not see it so, but of course, we all frame our interpretations from our views of the world. Just because they end up going to war is of no consequence to me. The process is the same. A small group of individuals standing up for what they believe in.

Yes, of course the aim portrayed in the movie to protect freedom was right, the methods portrayed though were in dire need of refinement, and made me wish all these folks had put more strain on developing their minds and less on developing their muscles.

But then I do as well feel that these fellows were warriors and kings, and did express strength and courage, so I felt sad and angry at all these guys marching off on a suicide mission when better sense and a little more subtlety could have prevented that outcome and still got Sparta saved. Such a waste...

[Erock]

Originally Posted by lasti

I can't agree with anything you said.
Man opressed? Who does lead the most countries of the world? Who does lead the most enterprises of the world?
In fact, women aren't even equal yet: In Germany (!) women earn 22% less then men in the same jobs... This is just another point of view. You see the problem is maybe bigger than you think...
There are always problems in society with groups. Black and white, male and female, natives and strangers, protestants and catholics. One mistreats the other and vice versa (aggresion produces agression) and both are unhappy (like songwriter said).
We can discuss a lot about all the facts and problems but the only solution is unconditional love and acceptance. We're all one. When we have understood this, we don't need these wars anymore.

I agree with you that as far as the workplace is concerned men probably have an advantage, and at the top levels of companies you'll definitely see more men than women, but socially speaking I think men have lost some ground, and I think this is what Akashic_Librarian was referring to.

I, for one, feel very disempowered when it comes to sex and birth control. Literally, the only thing men can use is a condom, and if that slips up, then it's entirely up to women how to deal with the pregnancy. I'm a cautious guy, but that thought still plagues me when I'm pursuing the opposite sex. I wish there was some kind of male pill or something...

The worst part of this is the hypocritical nature of the feminist movement. The "we want equal rights and strong women," and then 6 months later "why are men such wimps?" What these women didn't realize is that the traditional roles of men working and women staying at home gave men confidence, which attracts women, because they felt like they had something to offer, and that's how it's been since the caveman days (Man hunts deer, gives him confidence because he has something to provide, attracts women). Now regular men have NOTHING left to give women so they have no confidence. Is this a bad thing? Absolutely not. I think it's a great thing, because it forces men to be confident in themselves and not having that confidence lie in something external.

However, and this a big however, I think it's going to take awhile before men figure this out, so right now, women are kind of in trouble. Also, because men are so confused right now and so sexually frustrated, there might be a rise in sexual crimes and generally self-hating men. The dating game is just not as simple as it used to be.

Erock

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Erock

Literally, the only thing men can use is a condom, and if that slips up, then it's entirely up to women how to deal with the pregnancy. I'm a cautious guy, but that thought still plagues me when I'm pursuing the opposite sex. I wish there was some kind of male pill or something...

Hey, Erock, I haven't seen you in awhile! Nice to see you.

You know condoms are not your only choice. You can also choose to abstain, get snipped, or stick to non-reproductive sex. I remember a study on the male pill some years ago, and across the board the found that women wouldn't trust their men to take it conscientiously. Sorry about that! But it could still give you some peace of mind, if not the women. I'm surprised men haven't made the development of a male pill more of a priority.

[rho]

Getting snipped is a huge commitment. It can be reversed in some cases, but it is not something to take lightly, and is certainly not a viable form of birth control for a single man. What if you eventually want to have children? It should be compared to a woman having her tubes tied. The operations are different but the result is the same. It's not something you'd get for the weekend.

Abstinence and engaging in reproductive sex are also poor options. These do not address the real issue, but avoid it entirely. They only remove penetrative sex, which highlights what Erock was saying. When it comes to pregnancy, men have no control at all. The best they can hope for is influencing the decision.

[Akashic_Librarian]

I think there is a good bit of healthy debate going on here.

Some poster, (sorry I can't find it now) said that Women aren't even equal to men yet, in the business and cinematic sense.

Untrue! The Sound of Music? Resident Evil? Cat Women? The Devil Wears Prada? Sex and The City?

These are just a small example of movies where girls kick arse! (Not always literally of course)

Furthermore, I have to disagree with the comment about business, I have a part time job, working in the hospitality industry, which is a fancy way of saying I am a Waiter thrice a week

That industry is dominated by women, female managers, female team leaders, female cleaners...all of it is female oriented.

Furthermore schools are female oriented, teachers, cleaning staff and management.

What I am trying to highlight here is that 20 years, yes it was a bit different, men where more preffered to women, now that argument holds little water.

Besides, that wasn't even what I was talking about. I was talking about in a social environ. Things such as home-life, more and more men are less trusted with money, less trusted with tasks such as gardening, cleaning, and yes even providing for the family, apparently I am a patriarchal dictator-tyrant-slash-new-hitler for wanting to be the provider in my family. Go figure...

[songwriter]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

I
Some poster, (sorry I can't find it now) said that Women aren't even equal to men yet, in the business and cinematic sense.

Untrue! The Sound of Music? Resident Evil? Cat Women? The Devil Wears Prada? Sex and The City?

me and what are the movies with more "success" (money, income...) is it Cat Women or is it Batman?... is it The Matrix or Resident Evil?... that's what I mean.

[Angela]

@Rho, Erock said condoms were "literally the only thing a man can use." You may not like the alternatives, but there certainly are several alternatives in preventing yourself from conceiving a child.

You know, if you don't find any of those ideal, consider that women are in the same boat -- there are no ideal forms of birth control that women can use either.

[yossarian]

Robert Crowley who was 3rd in command in the CIA from 1947 to 2000 has claimed that the CIA and it's associates created feminism with the express purpose of demonizing men and breaking up the family unit.

Their goal was to individualize people - separate them from feeling safe through family - and therefore make them extra susceptible the media conditioning which has been so prevalent for the last 100 years.

He claims that the CIA secretly funded thousands of feminist activists and feminist movements, authored and pushed sexist legislation that would disempower men, and inserted agents into Hollywood and funded feminist TV shows and movies that would show men as incompetent.

After a few decades of pushing this as hard as they could, it eventually took on a life of it's own and became a social norm.

But I guess you don't have to trust the #3 guy in the CIA from 1947-2000 on this. His whistleblowing is probably just evidence of him being insane, right?

The very word "feminism" is unbalanced. It should be "humanism".

[rho]

I'll concede that he did use the word 'literally'. As you say, they will prevent conception. However, I stand by my argument that none of those options are reasonable, let alone ideal forms of birth control for the reasons listed in my previous post. They do not give the man choice. An analogy would be if women were only allowed to vote for the Republican party (ridiculous, I know, but bear with me). Imagine that they voice their dismay at having no choice, only to be told "that's not true, you do have a choice. You can vote for the Republican party or you can abstain from voting". It's not really a choice at all.

Health issues aside, women do have a pill they can pop to turn their fertility off an on. Men have no such option. Then there's the option of abortion, but that's another can of worms.

[Angela]

The options that are available to women are just as "unreasonable" as the ones available to men, rho. That little pill? Various studies show that it either causes or prevents breast cancer -- so we have to gamble. It definitely causes migraines and strokes, and in many cases it removes the sex drive completely. You have to remember to take it at the same time every day. Other side effects can be extremely yucky, painful, uncomfortable, and dangerous.

Condoms can hurt, and you have to trust your partner to use it properly.
IUD's can cause all kinds of trouble, comfort, health, and permanent effects-wise.
Female contraceptive surgery is invasive, risky, and even harder to reverse than male.

Your analogy is only valid if you add, "Women, you can vote for whomever you want, but any one of those votes might kill you or leave you permanently ill or sterile."

What I'm saying is: women are no better off than men in the realm of "reasonable" birth control.