male inequality and why I don't feel comfy as a man anymore.

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by ThoughtAddict

Akashic, I just don't see it man. You've spoken about negative stereotypes, the decrease of male importance in family life, the feminization of men, and the decline of chivalry. All respect, since you're a smart guy, but I just don't see it. Guys have a pretty nice situation.

The white-board of importance is wide open. In the US, for example, we are doing pretty solidly in terms of government and business leadership, as well as professional fields. We've got the monopoly on presidencies so far. Women business leaders are stuck with an interesting balancing act, since being too aggressive makes them look unappealing and cruel, while being too nice makes them look diminutive and weak. Guys, on the other hand, can easily go the aggressive route without gender coming into the picture. And going nice can work, as long as you don't do so in an effeminate way. There's a wider range of effective strategies there...



Not sure what you mean here. I have many friends who are feminists. There isn't much of a power-hungry mentality. Perhaps you're hanging around the wrong women, who get offended when you hold a door? I held a door for one of these feminists before I knew her, and she asked if I thought she was too delicate to open her own door. My response (which instantly started the friendship) was to smile, wink, and tell her that she could hold the door for me next time. It isn't a question of power, but of play. Instead of resenting her for focusing on her own power and individuality, I affirmed it while asserting my own.
Rather than seeing it in terms of superior and inferior, why not just see it as equal. Instead of viewing men as victims of culture, why not recognize that both genders have their own challenges which people handle in their own unique ways?

For every negative male stereotype, there's a negative female stereotype. The male buffoon and the female ditz. The male sex-crazed jock and the manipulative female who uses sex as a weapon. The financially incompetent male and the shopaholic female. The deadbeat dad and the crackwhore. The effeminate male and the butch. Why listen to any of them? Why waste energy best used to be a better you?

If you want to assert your masculinity, do so. Some people won't like it. So what?
If you want to be sensitive and talk about feelings, do so. Some people won't like it. So what?

And in addition to doing those things, we should bring up the issue of anti-male sentiment in public and courageously defend the boys who are growing up in schools with anti-male perspectives. We should boycott TV shows that reinforce those stereotypes and we should point out these things when we see them.

You are advocating a course of action that does everything BUT acknowledge the problem. That does everything BUT talk about it. Men have been conditioned to do exactly that - to suck it up and not complain.

The conditioning is so strong that when men bring it up, other men tell them to "shut up and deal with it!" or when men express their frustration at living under the current system, they're told that expressing themselves is pointless whining.

Issues involving the Presidency are not statistically relevant. Far more men are homeless, men die sooner, men receive less medical treatment per capita, there is less money invested into research on male diseases like prostate cancer, more men die in wars, men are given harsher sentences for the same crimes, men are almost entirely marginalized when it comes to divorce and child-related laws... these are things that effect everyone. The small number of Power Elite who run the world and select the leaders from the Skull & Bones is not relevant to everyday life.

Angela, the one thing you're missing is that Akashic can't instantly change who he is on a dime. And until he is "different" he should express his current self honestly.

Are people in this thread asking him to suffer in silence? Over and over again the theme is that he is just whining and shouldn't complain. The implicit statement is that he should get off the boards, stop making these threads and suffer in silence. That he should stop rocking the boat, stop annoying the status quo, etc etc.

Yes, he should stand up and be who he wants to be. This probably includes talking about his honest viewpoints on internet forums.

Every thread always turns into a discussion about the author. Why can't we ever discuss the actual issues? When it comes to this anti-male stuff, why can't we ever get some solidarity?

Instead of railing against the posters for victim mentality, why not support the initiative and be an example?

So here's the challenge:

1. Everytime you see an anti-male stereotype posted on the boards, point it out.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by yossarian

The implicit statement is that he should get off the boards, stop making these threads and suffer in silence. That he should stop rocking the boat, stop annoying the status quo, etc etc.

Not at all, I never said or implied any of that. You seem to have been so busy reading things in to what I say that you are completely unable or unwilling to hear that I have said several times -- at the very least you will not acknowledge it -- it's about how weak and ineffectual you make yourself when you blame others and declare yourself a victim, and create for others the exact same mistreatment you complain is being heaped on you.

And that, my friend, you certainly can change on a dime. Not that anyone *should.*

1. Everytime you see an anti-male stereotype posted on the boards, point it out.

What, not anti-female too?

(Playlife, that was for you, my sweet.)

[ThoughtAddict]

Originally Posted by yossarian

You are advocating a course of action that does everything BUT acknowledge the problem. That does everything BUT talk about it. Men have been conditioned to do exactly that - to suck it up and not complain.

Hardly. I'm not telling him to suck it up. I'm simply saying that I don't see the problem. I don't see big bad feminists whose goals are to emasculate men. The system isn't stacked against guys. The problems he's bringing up, I just don't see. What I see is a world in which both genders have some advantages, with guys having the more significant ones and the ones I prefer.

Originally Posted by yossarian

Issues involving the Presidency are not statistically relevant. Far more men are homeless, men die sooner, men receive less medical treatment per capita, there is less money invested into research on male diseases like prostate cancer, more men die in wars, men are given harsher sentences for the same crimes, men are almost entirely marginalized when it comes to divorce and child-related laws... these are things that effect everyone. The small number of Power Elite who run the world and select the leaders from the Skull & Bones is not relevant to everyday life.

The most powerful are irrelevant? I disagree, as the term "glass ceiling" still holds meaning.
But assuming arguendo that the highest are irrelevant, my point was not limited to that. More women are raped, women make less per capita, are less likely to be promoted, are more likely to face sexual harassment and domestic violence.
This isn't saying that women have it worse. My point isn't that one side has it worse. My point is that men are not subjugated to irrelevance or oppressed by the system. Basically, you're not a victim of society merely because you're a member of the "Y" club. The stereotypes don't evidence an inequality to me, either, as I pointed out.

If you're in favor of reducing violence, risk-taking behavior, homelessness, and disease, then we stand on the same side. Those issues aren't gender inequality issues, though. Those aren't cases of one gender being oppressed or marginalized. Angela brought up self-victimization for a good reason, I think. Making this a gender issue promotes a sense of "us vs. them", "men vs. women". That, frankly, is irrelevant to solving the problems, since the problems are not of a type where either gender is the creator or sustainer of the problem.

Far from asking Akashic to be quiet and go away, I'm asking him to embrace his own power. My last two lines were my advice to him. Be you, grow, evolve, let the chips fall where they may. You won't be able to please everyone anyway, so don't break yourself trying.

[Playlife]

Originally Posted by Angela

What, not anti-female too?

(Playlife, that was for you, my sweet.)

Yes, of course. In fact, I believe that my duty as a male is to point out those anti-female stereotypes. Men are here(on earth, not on these forums) to love women, to hold and protect them. Women are here(on earth, not on these forums) to love men, to hold and protect them. I think the biggest problem isn't even that much the inequality, but the lost love(was it ever there?). Even when women get the full rights and all equality and all the power men have etc, the love is still missing. Or substitute "love" for "closeness" - we might become equals, but not close.

love = sqrt(closeness² + power²)

I imagine some people might say that once women and men are on equal footing, they will work on that issue too, or that it solves naturally. But I'm not convinced about it. Two CEOs might also have equal power, yet are not close at all. Of course that's business setting and all but......

It's time we stop fighting against each other, we should fight for each other instead.

I don't know if this here made any sense.

[Akashic_Librarian]

Good post Playlife!

Thanks to the people who understand and support me, not so much thanks to the people who just told me, (in various forms of disguised Peace and Love rubbish) to shut up and stop moaning about it.

Its a real issue, and as Yossarian pointed out, this is my only platform at the moment. There aren't that many serious disucssions on his forums, alot of trivial ones, a lot of important but only very niche discussions, and finally ones that just don't make sense...

However I hope this is one of the those posts that brings up a real issue, the sort of issue we as an intelligent and, on average, more enlightened group of people than the Herd, should be tackling.

The point I want to give most significance too is that Man are being segregated in the classroom, in the workplace and of course in everyday life.

Politicans who are passionate and act with fervour (the male ones), are ripped apart in the media for being too masculine, too strong, or just being a man.

Men are being made a joke of on the world stage, men are pig-headed, egotistical ba****ds who quite frankly aren't worth the air they breathe. This attitude is reflected in the female oriented magazines which constantly release articles informing women how to "control her man" and "Make him work for you!", whilst in the male oriented magazines... I know sadly of only 2 or 3 I can think of, off the top of my head, Men's Health, Nuts, Zoo are scared - yes, scared - of printing similar articles but geared for men, for fear of being branded sexists by the feminist censor groups in Government. They print articles in jest sure, and they show topless women, Mens Health does it more artfully I'm sure, but if they ever released a serious article, like the womens magazines do, there would be a sexist uproar, and that is the issue I want to make important.

I won't accept and "stop moaning" answer, this is the answer of the coward too afraid to confront the real issue, I am a Man, I complain, its genetic, get used to it!

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

The point I want to give most significance too is that Man are being segregated in the classroom, in the workplace and of course in everyday life.

Politicians who are passionate and act with fervor (the male ones), are ripped apart in the media for being too masculine, too strong, or just being a man.

Men are being made a joke of on the world stage, men are pig-headed, egotistical ba****ds who quite frankly aren't worth the air they breathe. This attitude is reflected in the female oriented magazines which constantly release articles informing women how to "control her man" and "Make him work for you!", whilst in the male oriented magazines... I know sadly of only 2 or 3 I can think of, off the top of my head, Men's Health, Nuts, Zoo are scared - yes, scared - of printing similar articles but geared for men, for fear of being branded sexists by the feminist censor groups in Government. They print articles in jest sure, and they show topless women, Mens Health does it more artfully I'm sure, but if they ever released a serious article, like the womens magazines do, there would be a sexist uproar, and that is the issue I want to make important.

Let's assume you're right. (not saying you're right or wrong, just saying let's assume you're right)

Why should that influence how you feel about being a man, about what kind of action you should take?

Let's take segregation in the U.S. about 40 years ago when black were segregated, by law, into being in the back of the bus, or into inferior schools and jobs and all of that. By law, they were meant to be treated inferior, and probably a lot of them did feel inferior. Yet, some of them, such as Martin Luther King refused to accept that, refused to feel inferior, and rose up to the situation and became very strong leaders, leaders who demanded equality. They didn't complain that they felt inferior though, they didn't complain that they weren't comfortable being black because of those laws. Instead, the complained and demanded that they be treated equally, and fairly. Yet, regardless of how those leaders were treated - whether equally or segregated, there was no mistaking that they felt very comfortable about who they were, as black men and women. Despite the fact that the very laws of the nation specifically held them to be inferior.

What I see you doing Akashic_Librarian, is you're demanding/complaining, without feeling comfortable about yourself. If you're not feeling comfortable being yourself, being a man as you are, then that's not society's fault, that's your fault. I don't think you can initiate a change in society without feeling comfortable about yourself, about who you are.

So, I'd say, if you feel men are treated unjustly, you might be right. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying that for you to feel comfortable as a man, you best look within yourself and not at society. In fact, I'd guess to venture that once you've felt comfortable with yourself as a man, THEN, you will be much more powerful to go out and create the change in society you wish to see - do like Martin Luther King and lead a kind of society revolution to change how your society is treating men.

But just like Marting Luther King had to be comfortable as a black man before he could lead that change against the nation treating blacks as inferior, I think you have to be comfortable as a man before you can lead the change against how men are treated.

[AndreiR]

Akashic_Librarian, what you are describing here is what you see on TV and in the media. And I agree with you, and I see your problem, it's a biased representation, and it's not realistic. But let me stress that last point: it's not realistic -- which means it has nothing to do with real life. So what the others are trying to tell you is don't get hung up on what you see in a TV show, or about what you read in a magazine. Who cares about what they say on TV anyway? Don't you get it? It's not important.
Yes, there are no male role models. But so what? TV and society are not responsible for you becoming a real man. YOU ARE. Now you understand why everyone tells you to stop moaning about it? Among other things, moaning and pouting aren't manly!
If you really want something close to a male role model, try watching some Cary Grant movies. Hopefully, you'll see what I mean.

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by Angela

Not at all, I never said or implied any of that. You seem to have been so busy reading things in to what I say that you are completely unable or unwilling to hear that I have said several times -- at the very least you will not acknowledge it -- it's about how weak and ineffectual you make yourself when you blame others and declare yourself a victim, and create for others the exact same mistreatment you complain is being heaped on you.

And that, my friend, you certainly can change on a dime. Not that anyone *should.*

I did hear that, and I realize your main message is about blame. I wasn't responding to only you. You weren't addressing only his blame however, you said stuff like, "It sounds like you're just whining" as well.

Not that there is anything wrong with you pointing that out, but I personally want to stand up for Akashic when I get the impression that he is being pressured to "change or stop whining". If whining is where a person is at I think they should do it. The anti-whining sentiment is exactly another aspect of the anti-male conditioning. Men are taught that any kind of criticism or dissatisfaction coming from them is inauthentic and not allowed. Men are taught that they have "white male privilege" and so are not allowed to speak out, but rather should take punishment quietly like a silent dartboart. Suppression is undertaken by telling men that they are just whining and they are making it all up, by condescending to them saying "poor you!" and things like that.

In my estimation, that is the majority of the response that Akashic has received in this thread.

I agree with you on the specific subject of blame, but you weren't only talking about blame initially and most people in this thread aren't talking about blame.

Still, while I want everyone to move past blame I want to do it through example rather than criticism because criticism can very easily be seen as blame itself. I don't think this is specifically legitimate but it is a widespread stumbling block.

What, not anti-female too?

You didn't apply this same criteria to the thread on female violence. You said that counteracting one form of violence does not necessitate speaking out against another form. And you made highly logic-based arguments to support that.

Personally I think we should address the whole gamut to achieve balance, but since female stereotypes are already widely condemned in popular culture, academia, literature, the boards, Oprah, etc -- the people who still perpetuate the stereotypes are well-aware they are doing so and have chosen that they're going to be sexist anyway.

Whereas most people are still completely unaware of male stereotypes, so pointing them out is highly effective. There are lots of people who wouldn't perpetuate male stereotypes if they knew they were doing it. Most of the anti-male sexists in society do it unconsciously. I have met extreme cases of anti-male discrimination in the workplace and the perpetrator was honestly totally unconscious of their behavior. In schools, anti-male bias is considered normal and is shared by the far majority of school employees. Suggesting that these people are acting in discriminatory ways is more difficult than telling them that aliens live on Earth. They are completely unaware of it and think it is perfectly normal and OK. This includes male educators.

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by ThoughtAddict

The most powerful are irrelevant? I disagree, as the term "glass ceiling" still holds meaning.

These are all basically urban myths. The data doesn't back them up. You are running off of propaganda that was true 40 years ago but is not true today, though the media still continues to present it as truth.

First of all, the glass ceiling is a ceiling not only to women but to black people, to people from poor families, to people in general who were not born into an exclusive club of privilege that is shrouded in secrecy. All authentic studies of the Power Elite show that it is a highly incestuous, highly controlled world. Yes, the power elite are sexist. They are also racist, they are also elitists in that they honestly believe that poor people are inferior.

There is a certain level of power in society that can be achieved purely by talent, and at that level women hold many of the positions of power. Past a certain level however, it is what could be called a Good Old Boys network. This is an extremely degenerate group of people and they are indeed sexist. But they are not representative.

If you think that being born as some average male you could join their group, you are simply mistaken. You have been injected with false hopes. They are no more open to men born into poor families than they are to women born in rich families.

Society in general will not be able to solve the issue of sexism in the power elite until we solve the power elite totally... they do far worse things than keep women out of their ranks. They're responsible for millions upon millions of deaths.. sexism is the least of their sins.

Anyway, moving on to things that affect 99.99% of the population:

More women are raped, are more likely to face sexual harassment and domestic violence.

The truth is that we don't even know how many men are raped because the justice system, police, and media don't consider male rape to even exist. Many police departments won't and aren't equipped to even receive rape claims from men.

The same goes for sexual harassment and domestic violence. When they are committed against men it's extremely hard to get authorities to even recognize that men can be victims of these things.

Preliminary studies done by researches who are trying to compensate for these effects have shown that domestic violence against men is extremely high and almost entirely unreported and not dealt with. It is literally taboo for a man to bring up claims of domestic violence against his wife, even when she uses weapons to harm him or coerce him.

Sexual harassment again is completely unreported by men. We are currently seeing a media surge in sexual abuse of male minors by adult women. These activities are just a small sample of the behemoth of abuse that has not yet been unearth, that has been largely kept in the dark by taboos against men speaking out.

women make less per capita,

As of today this is a myth. Women, as of today, make equal pay for equal time for equal jobs. However, women are more likely to choose to work less and to choose to take time off to raise/birth children. So while they earn the same per-hour as a man, they choose to work less overtime and to work fewer hours in general. This is where the 70% figure comes from - it doesn't represent gender bias it represents the fact that women choose to work fewer hours in the same job description. Indeed, many countries have laws that MANDATE that women are allowed to choose to work fewer hours. For instance in Canada it is mandated by the government that all women are to receive the option of maternity leave with a certain amount of pay. This is naturally going to mean that women make less money, but it is entirely their free will choice and most women consider it a boon to be given the option to work fewer hours anyway.

My point is that men are not subjugated to irrelevance or oppressed by the system.

The data really doesn't support this. How do you explain the fact that since 1970 boys have doing worse and worse in school, to the point where right now girls far far outperform boys in every subject including the hard sciences, have far higher university attendance, have far higher admission to graduate studies for equal marks, etc?

The school system is the #1 oppressor of the male gender. The divorce court is the next worst, and many workplaces are a distant 3rd.

This is the status quo as of today. Women have heaps of protection under the law that, when used by a vindictive woman, translates into ammunition with which to attack her enemies. Lucky for men that most women aren't vindictive.

I'm sure you've heard the horror stories of girls that have literally put multiple men in jail by having sex with them and then claiming rape. The reason we know they are lying is because they often come clean later on... of the course the court system is set up so that the men who were falsely accused are STILL labeled sex offenders for life.

There are even more horror stories of women abusing the court system to punish their ex-husbands. You don't have to look far to find one of these.

Basically, you're not a victim of society merely because you're a member of the "Y" club.

Every man who has gone through public education has been affected by anti-male bias even if they don't realize it. This doesn't mean we should forever wallow in pity, but perhaps mourning is the first step to healing for some people.

If you're in favor of reducing violence, risk-taking behavior, homelessness, and disease, then we stand on the same side. Those issues aren't gender inequality issues, though. Those aren't cases of one gender being oppressed or marginalized. Angela brought up self-victimization for a good reason, I think. Making this a gender issue promotes a sense of "us vs. them", "men vs. women". That, frankly, is irrelevant to solving the problems, since the problems are not of a type where either gender is the creator or sustainer of the problem.

In order to reduce homelessness (basically a male phenomenon) we have to first admit to ourselves there is an issue. In order to step out of a mud-puddle, we have to first accept that we are stuck in the mud.

In order to address many of the issues we're talking about, we have to first come to grips with the fact that the feminist movement has gone overboard into territory where active suppression of the male principle is now considered politically correct. Until we admit this fact we are working from a place of delusion and so efforts will be unsuccessful.

Until we recognize the fact that homelessness is entirely caused by a lack of government support for poor males (poor women receive welfare, poor men become homeless) we aren't going to put a dent in homelessness.

Far from asking Akashic to be quiet and go away, I'm asking him to embrace his own power.

It would be nice if this was your entire message, but laced into your message is a denial of the facts which he is trying to lament.

An evocative analogy would be a women comes to you saying, "Ever since I was raped I feel awful about being a woman" and you tell her that she wasn't actually raped and that she needs to embrace her own power.

When men speak out about the victimization they've encountered, this is the response they get. And so because of it only a certain type of man EVER brings it up as an issue - ESPECIALLY in public where they will be mocked.

Me and Akashic are both the type of people who were put here to be iconoclasts. We both feel the whips of oppression, but we also feel a responsibility to address the issues and brave the fires of public scorn.

It's been my experience that older men are entirely conditioned to deny that this exists because to accept it for what it is would instantly cause chaos in their life of submission to various females in their life. The women in their live are majority unconscious of their own behavior as well. With age comes rigidity. There are few old men who will address these problems.

The entire movement comes from two places:

1. Old men - these are men who have had their lives completely and utterly ruined - by ex-wives, by false accusations of rape, by false or exaggerated accusations of sexual harassment, and by accusations of pedophilia. With those 3 crimes an accusation is enough to completely ruin the lives of many men. With divorce, it is trivial for a vindictive woman to completely take away a man's will to live by denying him his children and draining him of the means to start another family.

2. Young men - these are men like me and Akashic who are recently out of the school system and are hyper-aware of the extreme depths of bias that are current in the school system. Since the phenomena is new to us, being fairly young humans, we are more sensitive to it and find more outrage since we have more recent memories of a plane of existence that is more harmonious and where our masculine principle was not suppressed. Since we have the alternative media, the mainstream media conditioning has far less sway over us. Since people like me and Akashic have in common that we are intelligent, free-thinker archetypes, we are iconoclasts and find fault in many institutions, anti-male discrimination being only one of the walls that we want to tear one.

Most of the men I've met in daily life who don't fall into one of the above categories will completely deny that it is happening and ridicule me for even mentioning it. Women of all stripes are generally blind to it, and often are unconscious perpetrators. They genuinely mean well but social conditioning is a powerful force.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by yossarian

I agree with you on the specific subject of blame, but you weren't only talking about blame initially

You're right. I was also talking about the insistence on being a victim. But my very first response after asking him what he was going to do was:

But being on the attack, like referring to feminists as being part of a Female Supremacy farce, I guarantee you, is not going to get women aligned with your quest of stopping the stereotyping of men and seeing our way to true equality. Just the opposite, I think, as you are boldly creating the very thing you object to -- unfair stereotyping. Just like when women go on the offensive about their gender discomfort and unleash vile comments about the nastiness of men in general.

Still, while I want everyone to move past blame I want to do it through example rather than criticism because criticism can very easily be seen as blame itself. I don't think this is specifically legitimate but it is a widespread stumbling block.

Right, that's what I think you're doing -- seeing my criticism as blame, and blaming me for it. Time to lead by example!

You didn't apply this same criteria to the thread on female violence. You said that counteracting one form of violence does not necessitate speaking out against another form. And you made highly logic-based arguments to support that.

You are right; it was a joke, denoted by a smiley, to refer back to that thread. I thought you, of all people, would get that one.

And to sum up my thoughts on this, counteracting the oppression you feel does not necessitate blaming others and declaring yourself to be a victim, and in fact, you end up alienating those who would have been your allies by doing so. As an illustration of that, I'm done in this thread. Good luck moving past society's limiting stereotypes -- and your own.

[Akashic_Librarian]

You say true yossarian, and I say thankya!

Its about time we stopped hiding from the opressive feminist regime now firmly established into western culture and instead reassert our male value.

We are afraid to show what it means to be a man for fear of being put down, patronized and legally molested by feminist pressure groups present in our governments.

The school system is so much geared to nurture the "female" attributes of the psyche, kindness, sharing, good will, turning the other cheek. , nurturing and that eternal mothering instinct. All valuable, but only half what is needed for boys, girls might be able to get along with that, and thats fine, but boys are not genetically designed to be able to run on those things, they can but its a kind of warped manliness that is more feminine than anything, rather what should be taught alongside those attributes are courage, strength, fearlessness, Godlessness, individuality, identity, power, true masculinity that we have forgotten because of a wash of poitical correctness, feminist nonsense, and cowardly apologists so afraid of being themselves.

I implore that any forum members out there currently afraid that they might be attacked for wanting to be a real man, and not a cowardly apologist, to stand forward and say true, "I am me, and what I am is Man".

Now is the time to say it, now is the time to really show the world that if women can stand up and say it, then so can we, the Men, The Forgotten Opressed.

Please, for the sake of our children, don't be a cowardly excuse for a man, be a man, and let the woman be a woman and maybe our kids or our grand kids, or our great grand kids won't be as confused as the ones alive today are.

[songwriter]

Originally Posted by Angela

Yossarian, I'm not saying anger is wrong, or that anyone should repress their anger. In fact, I'm all for expressing my own anger. No, what I'm saying is it's Blame and Believing You are a Victim that works against you (by "you" I mean a person who operates from a place of blame, not you personally.) I capitalize those words because it seems apparent that there are some people who entirely missed what I was saying before -- Songwriter, this means you.

lol and what I'm a victim of? I don't see it. Actually the ones that I perceive as victims are the man suffering those women (and the women suffering "those" man) but not me, well somehow too, as everyone, we're all afected by that, but in the list of degree of victimism I would be in the lowest places.

by they way, once a person starts doing kind of personal attacks, I mean focusing on a person that brings a point, instead of topic, I just forget his/her point of view. Cause that's an "anti-people" behaviour, man, woman or whatever. And now here is pointed.

[lasti]

There's anti-male, there's anti-female. There are anti-female sterotypes, anti-male stereotypes. There are bad men and bad women and a lot of "horror stories". As most people belong to one of these two genders, we all can complain about our situation. But what is the point? We get more and more distant. But if we want to end inequality, stereotypes, and anti-agendas we have to come closer. So if you really want to do something, Akashic_Librarian and anybody else, you might work on this. The first way to change your circumstances is to change yourself. The circumstances will never be able to comfy you!

[Angela]

I'm back. I think Akashic took a big step forward in his most recent post, by creating power and an inspiring call to action.

Sounds like you are realizing you can't change others by attacking and blaming, but you can make a huge difference by being power and being inspiration.

I'm inspired!

[Fullcrum]

You're 17 Librarian? I'm 16 and, though these problems do of course exist in the world, it is quite possible to not fall prey to them. In my experience, if a woman ever pulled this stuff on me, I'd just not notice it and continue being my dominant self. And then it's solved because I have GOOD intentions and I know that will eventually come through. Good intentions include having fun, spreading a good vibe, amusing myself, connecting with others and things like that.

Now it's perfectly awesome to be aware of these problems and take steps to make others more aware of them as well as doing something about it. But there's anger, resentment, and sarcasm in your posts that tells me you might have been on the receiving end of this. Even if you weren't, the mode of your posts isn't in "let's solve this mode" but "let's commiserate" mode. Which is definitely not cool, though of course you have every right to. Let's stop that. Let's become better men.

If you are a certain kind of guy, this is not a problem for him. If you are doing any of these things (carrying stuff, opening doors) trying to get approval or to get noticed for it and identified as a "strong man", then it's likely, unless they're highly conscious individuals (which is rare in any case), that they'll be offended or just not notice it. If you are a more conscious person, with purer intentions, they'll be more likely to positively react.

Now that doesn't mean you should open the door expecting a positive response. Do it because that is, on the external level, "Who you are." It's just a natural tendency for you, from the thought processes you undergo and the emotions you feel through your body, that you would do something like open doors for women.

If you go through the world thinking "How can I make this fun?", "How can I make these other people more present and enjoying of themselves while staying true to myself?" and other similar thoughts, I think sexism will be a very rare occurrence for you.

Hope this helps.

And BTW your last post was awesome.

[ThoughtAddict]

Originally Posted by yossarian

The truth is that we don't even know how many men are raped because the justice system, police, and media don't consider male rape to even exist. Many police departments won't and aren't equipped to even receive rape claims from men.

The same goes for sexual harassment and domestic violence. When they are committed against men it's extremely hard to get authorities to even recognize that men can be victims of these things.

I'm working off of the US DoJ Crime Victimization Survey, where people anonymously report what crimes have been committed against them in the past 6 months in response to a survey form they are provided. If men report it, it gets added to the statistic. No subjectivity, no insensitive cops, just self-reported stats.

The stats in the UK may be different. In the US, women are roughly 10 times more likely to be a victim of rape or sexual assault than men, according to anonymous self-reports.

Originally Posted by yossarian

This is the status quo as of today. Women have heaps of protection under the law that, when used by a vindictive woman, translates into ammunition with which to attack her enemies. Lucky for men that most women aren't vindictive.

. . .

There are even more horror stories of women abusing the court system to punish their ex-husbands. You don't have to look far to find one of these.

My job involves helping lawyers represent clients. Some of these clients are men in the midst of divorce. Let me say very briefly that both genders try to abuse to law in divorce. Largely, the law in the States analyzes both parents carefully, and neither gender has significant ammunition over the other. The one inequality is that judges default to women for custody, which is a topic the legal community is actively addressing (see, e.g. among many, the Wake Forest L. Rev. Summer 2008 and Harv. J. L. & Gender, Winter 2008). Even today, dual custody is more common when the child's best interests are even.

[QUOTE=yossarian;218231]In order to address many of the issues we're talking about, we have to first come to grips with the fact that the feminist movement has gone overboard into territory where active suppression of the male principle is now considered politically correct. Until we admit this fact we are working from a place of delusion and so efforts will be unsuccessful.

What is "the male principle"? How, in concrete terms, is it being actively suppressed? Who, and I mean individually who, is suppressing it?

Originally Posted by yossarian

An evocative analogy would be a women comes to you saying, "Ever since I was raped I feel awful about being a woman" and you tell her that she wasn't actually raped and that she needs to embrace her own power.

This is so far off base, I'm not going to dignify it with a refutation.

Originally Posted by yossarian

2. Young men - these are men like me and Akashic who are recently out of the school system and are hyper-aware of the extreme depths of bias that are current in the school system. Since the phenomena is new to us, being fairly young humans, we are more sensitive to it and find more outrage since we have more recent memories of a plane of existence that is more harmonious and where our masculine principle was not suppressed.

See, I'm in the same demographic. I have done and plan to continue to do well in my educational pursuits. I'm only a few years older than Akashic, and have sniped at the system in my own various ways. And, yeah, I've faced some serious opposition for it.
My point is that I don't see it. Beyond a few male stereotypes (which, I've already mentioned, have their corresponding female stereotype), I don't see what the complaint is. There isn't some pervasive oppression that I experience. I don't feel disadvantaged in education, career, or in any court proceeding. I don't feel afraid to be me, to make jokes, to hold doors, to speak freely. There is no big scary feminist regime that makes me worry I'm being offensive when I tell a dumb blonde joke. I just don't see it, guy.

[Wet]

My point is that I don't see it. Beyond a few male stereotypes (which, I've already mentioned, have their corresponding female stereotype), I don't see what the complaint is. There isn't some pervasive oppression that I experience. I don't feel disadvantaged in education, career, or in any court proceeding. I don't feel afraid to be me, to make jokes, to hold doors, to speak freely. There is no big scary feminist regime that makes me worry I'm being offensive when I tell a dumb blonde joke. I just don't see it, guy.

I'm curious what REAL LIFE experience Akashic has had with this as well, I asked once but I didn't get a reply, however I think it might not be as BIG of a problem (at least to him) as he thinks it is.

[Holistic Star]

I agree Wet, I tried to post earlier but my internet connection dropped out.

When AL says that polititians are ridiculed for displaying masculine characteristics - which polititians does he mean and what was said about them. I'm struggling to think of male politians that are ridiculed for being masculine as opposed to their policies?

Who are these scary strident feminists going around indimidating men? Are they in the public realm (ie. celebrities / public figures - if so which ones, what are they saying), if not and they are people AL knows personally, what are they saying and doing?


I have to say his writing in this and a few other posts I have read of his, reads like a rant from a newspaper we have over here called the Daily Mail. It tends to be full of reactionary bile about the poor persecuted white male. I would feel confident putting on a bet that AL reads that paper (or something similar).

[yossarian]

My point is that I don't see it. Beyond a few male stereotypes (which, I've already mentioned, have their corresponding female stereotype), I don't see what the complaint is. There isn't some pervasive oppression that I experience. I don't feel disadvantaged in education, career, or in any court proceeding. I don't feel afraid to be me, to make jokes, to hold doors, to speak freely. There is no big scary feminist regime that makes me worry I'm being offensive when I tell a dumb blonde joke. I just don't see it, guy.

Do you see how insensitive this is? This is where my analogy about rape comes in. Just because you personally aren't aware of it or haven't experienced it doesn't mean others haven't.

You didn't really disagree with any of the facts I presented either you just said "well, they aren't so bad."

While Akashic presents his own experience you reply by saying, "Surely it's not so bad! Surely you weren't really raped, and it was actually consensual sex that you wanted all along! You were probably wearing a short skirt anyway!"

It's blaming the victim.

I don't have time to dig in to every stat, so I'll just go into the school system stats which I'm most familiar with.

Saskatchewan’s Gender Gap in Academic Achievement

This website presents a purely statistical argument for gender bias in schools. Unless you believe that boys are genetically inferior you can't deny the gender bias in that particular school district where the study was done. (Which is the district I was educated in and still live in)

Similar numbers have been collected for other school systems. In my particular district the schoolboard is completely unwilling to even consider that there is a problem.

There are teachers whose job it is to report educational issues to the schoolboard. I've brought it up face-to-face with these teachers and they have decided to not even present the facts. In fact it was an incredible ordeal to even get them to LOOK at the facts. One teacher in particular - her job description was to submit educational issues to the schoolboard - and it took me three weeks to coax her into even reading that website. She had all sorts of agendas that she was spending hours preparing reports on relating to other things, but when it comes to anti-male gender bias it was like how people react in regression hypnosis when they are asked to confront a deeply seated personality schism. Deflect, deny, marginalize, say "surely it's no big deal" over and over. "I just don't see it!" while refusing to look at the facts, etc.

Anyway I guess it's just a trend on this forum that every topic has to come back to a discussion on the delusion of the original poster, so I shouldn't be so annoyed when people don't address the issues and would rather talk about the psychological patterns of the poster. In Akashic's case I don't think he is generating victimization, I think he is being honest as a stepping stone towards solutions. I don't agree with everything he says - in fact I don't really agree with his ideas on masculinity - but I respect the fact that he has these ideas, I respect the fact that he is brave enough to come forward with his feelings on his own "victimization".

To wallow in oppression is not productive, but would someone who is honestly wallowing in oppression share their feelings on a forum like this? I strongly doubt it. Confronting your own feelings is not reinforcing them, it is shining the light of consciousness on them. By confronting your own true feelings you work through them and you can inspire others to do the same.

I don't think it's right to even say he is blaming women, but rather that he is venting. The very fact that he's able to post about this stuff honestly to me represents a positive initiative towards taking responsibility and consciously choosing growth.

This is likely the schism between Angela and myself - Angela you see Akashic blaming people and wallowing in victimhood but I see him confronting his demons without reservation and working through them. I did get your joke - and sorry if I seem callous - but my agenda is to work on the issues and my primary audience is the people who are unconsciously propagating anti-male bias. So I'm pointing things out instead of letting them go unsaid. I'm stating the obvious rather than enjoying inside jokes. When I see people suffering I turn pretty serious and I guess this is one of my torches :P

I personally don't feel oppressed because in a sense I've thrown off my shackles. But I feel deeply for the men who have committed suicide after being horribly abused by the courts. For the boys (and I know many personally) who have their spirits crushed by a school system that considers them innately criminal. For the boys whose natural exuberance is considered a medical condition and are given drugs to zombify them because their female teachers can't handle and don't understand masculine energy.

For the poor men who are sent to jail and forgotten for crimes that are barely punished when they happen to rich men or to any women. ( Chicago Journals - The Journal of Law and Economics ) ( GlennSacks.com » Blog Archive » More Anti-Male Domestic Violence Insanity )

For the men whose child support payments are higher than their actual income, but the courts won't reduce the payments and so they end up in jail or on the run - or the all-too-often case where they end up committing suicide. ( GlennSacks.com » Blog Archive » Another Draconian Child Support Case ) ( Just another disenfranchised father: The murderer-suicide in our midst )

For the men who want to be elementary school teachers but then discover that the slightest sign of warmth towards a child will be considered evidence of pedophilia, and a single accusation without evidence or conviction will put them on a permanent sex offenders list and they will be unable to work with children for the rest of their lives. ( Looking for a few good men | MenTeach - Recruiting male teachers for education )

If you don't believe a word I'm saying, just spend 15 minutes on Mens' Rights to discover a bunch of men who are indeed victims.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by yossarian

Angela you see Akashic blaming people and wallowing in victimhood but I see him confronting his demons without reservation and working through them.

Yes, and perhaps that's because you don't belong to the group that he was blaming for his victimhood.

Akashic seems to have made a transformation to his approach, and I cheer him on.

There's a world of difference between Akashic's new approach of:
"I am hurting, and my brothers are hurting, because of something going on here. Let's talk about this, because I'd like people to know about it. Let's see what we can come up with to make things better for everyone."

And:

"I am suffering because of women and all the crimes they injustly perpetrate on me and my brothers! Those Female Supremacist farcical "power hungry bitches" and their organized assault on my manhood! Here are all kinds of statistics that prove we have it much worse than women do! They should change, those power hungry bitches!"

One approach will get women on your side, and one will garner only disdain. You can feel compassion all you want for men who express their pain in this way, Yossarian; you can encourage them to speak up with this kind of vitriol in the interest of "responsibly and consciously choosing growth." (!)

But if you speak that way, please don't expect a whole lot of unbridled cooperation or commiseration from us power hungry female supremacist bitches -- otherwise known as "women."

[ThoughtAddict]

Originally Posted by yossarian

Do you see how insensitive this is? This is where my analogy about rape comes in. Just because you personally aren't aware of it or haven't experienced it doesn't mean others haven't.

. . .

It's blaming the victim.

No. It's asking for evidence of oppression. You're accusing me of ignoring something as egregious as rape. If someone, male or female, tells me about being raped or sexually abused, I'll be the first to offer whatever support I can. What you and he are talking about is systemic oppression. I don't see it, so I asked you to show me who is oppressing and how. Instead, you've falsely accused me of emotionless callousness and compared unequal academic achievement to rape.

Originally Posted by yossarian

Saskatchewan’s Gender Gap in Academic Achievement

This website presents a purely statistical argument for gender bias in schools. Unless you believe that boys are genetically inferior you can't deny the gender bias in that particular school district where the study was done. (Which is the district I was educated in and still live in)

Actually, there are myriad other explanations, as anyone who understands research methods would attest, but I won't mention them for fear of being accused of callousness. Instead, my question is the same as it has been: Who is oppressing and how are they oppressing? In the case of education, you must admit that teachers probably aren't intentionally causing such a disparity, right? Then the question is one of education reform, not oppression. It is a question of teaching methods, not scary feminists. The articles you've pointed to show that male teachers have it harder gaining acceptance. This is not oppression, unless you're willing to concede that female construction workers, football players, wrestlers, bodybuilders, etc. face oppression.

[ThoughtAddict]

Originally Posted by Angela

Akashic seems to have made a transformation to his approach, and I cheer him on.

There's a world of difference between Akashic's new approach of:
"I am hurting, and my brothers are hurting, because of something going on here. Let's talk about this, because I'd like people to know about it. Let's see what we can come up with to make things better for everyone."

And:

"I am suffering because of women and all the crimes they injustly perpetrate on me and my brothers! Those Female Supremacist farcical "power hungry bitches" and their organized assault on my manhood! Here are all kinds of statistics that prove we have it much worse than women do! They should change, those power hungry bitches!"

Angela just crystallized exactly, exactly what I'm getting at. Yes, there are disadvantages to being a guy. I think guys have significant advantages, but don't deny that there are disadvantages. Like I said, if you wanna work to improve education, solve homelessness, reduce disease and risk-taking behaviors, increase health care, etc, you'll find me an ally. Calling it oppression at the hands of the evil feminists is disingenuous, and that's what I have a problem with.

[Akashic_Librarian]

Thank You Angela, I am glad you have started to understand my points. And thank you Yossarian for your continuous support, its most appreciated believe me.

I would like to address now a barrier I feel is blocking this discussion from hitting full swing, so to speak. It seems a loot of people don't like admitting that men and women might be unequal - - and would rather believe that men and women are entirely equal. This is a lie.

Men and Women are not equal, not at all; each have their own unique strengths and weaknesses. To deny this is the highest form of ignorance and stupidity.

Unfortunately the coinciding of the Feminist movement and the rise of absurd politically correct laws and rules leaves the average man feeling as though he is wrong for thinking he is stronger than a women, because women are just as strong as him, however this is the kicker, its NEVER reinforced that men can be just as sensitive, or loving, or nurturing, as women, NEVER.

As such I have noticed a few posters recoil from the idea of Male opression because they have been conditioned to believe men and women are equal, and if anything, woemn are the opressed ones, never men. I ask you to please try and get past this mental block you have, suspend belief (or disbelief, as it where) and try and see the truth behind it, don't be afraid to say, you know what? That DID happen to me at school, or That DID happen to me at work. Only when we recognize there is a problem, can we overcome it.

Now as for these people who seem hell bent on making me reel of a list of feminist politicans and celbrities, give it a rest ok? You don't want to know for any good reason at all, you just want to make me see that the problem isn't that big of a problem, yoru bascially, as Yossarian put it, blaming the victim. Just because you cannot see a problem, or you are too conditioned to recognize it as a problem, doesn't mean there isn't a problem. Ask yourself this, would I bother making such a big fuss over something thats probably "not as bad as it seems"?

[dancer]

Do you equate equality with power? Your posts imply you want to dominate women and you also want to be sensitive, loving and nurturing, but there are a hoard of feministic bitches preventing you.

Yes, individuals have unique strengths and weaknesses. Why do we need to make this into a gender war? Why is it necessary for either gender to feel stronger than the other? We are individuals. Why are we so bent on categorising ourselves and each other into gender roles?

You seem to have expectations of how men and women should be, are your expectations realistic? In particular, I refer to you wanting to support your wife. I understood this to mean that you want your wife to be a stay-at-home wife. Would your wife be a feminist ♥♥♥♥♥ if she is driven to contribute value outside of your marriage? I apologise if I have misunderstood you.

I do not see equality as a power struggle. Equality for me represents a world where individuals have equal opportunities to achieve their dreams and goals no matter gender or race.

Can you explain how the average man thinks he is stronger than a woman. I am not challenging you, more I would like to understand what this means for you or men in general. Is this something you have learnt or is it a natural instinct?

[Akashic_Librarian]

dancer I admire your inquisition.

I do not believe that men should dominate women, nor do I believe women should dominate men, if it turned out that I was better suited to raise my child and my wife had better earning potential, then I would hold no grudge at staying at home, or only working part time, or even working at home, its not a problem to me.

What I don't want is my wife to think she HAS to go out and be a power freak, and I don't want to live in world where I am looked down on for wanting to look after my children rather than work, but again should I want to be a dominating male character - then by the False Gods I want to be able to do that!

It is not a gender war, it is an ideological war, it just so happens that its divided by gender (mostly).

When the world is different, I will be happy

[Tigerlilly]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

if they ever released a serious article

I've never seen guys as being weak and needing protection from women or feminists or society. Ever. It's just not part of my mental make-up and I can't follow you, and therefore I'll leave the basic question of whether men's equality is at stake aside.

But I was reminded by this discussion of a wonderful essay of Ralph W. Emerson on "Self-Reliance". When I read this essay -though of course it was really adressed to men only when Emmerson wrote it- I could follow his thoughts and the way of life he lined out for men has my full approval and support.

The big difference between his words and yours are that behind Emerson's writing I could sense the fully rounded personality of a free man speaking, one that calls brains, balls, heart and humor his own. Though one might argue that the issues you see at stake here don't call for humor, there's always room for heart and I miss that in your words.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

When the world is different, I will be happy

Why wait?


Right on, @Tigerlilly. You are not going to get women on board with your aims, fellas, if you make us the enemy in your ideological war. Speak to us with heart, and we're more than willing to support you in your desire for freedom, love, and happiness.

[lasti]

Originally Posted by Angela

Why wait?


Right on, @Tigerlilly. You are not going to get women on board with your aims, fellas, if you make us the enemy in your ideological war. Speak to us with heart, and we're more than willing to support you in your desire for freedom, love, and happiness.

Yes. Yes. Yes. And lots more of "Yes".

[ThoughtAddict]

Originally Posted by Angela

Right on, @Tigerlilly. You are not going to get women on board with your aims, fellas, if you make us the enemy in your ideological war. Speak to us with heart, and we're more than willing to support you in your desire for freedom, love, and happiness.

You're also not gonna get the guys who love those women. You might not be bothered by that, but if you're scoping out serious change, alienating a huge chunk of the population that may support you isn't a good move.

Y'know, it reminds me of the one women's studies class I took. I'd highly recommend guys go for those, since they can fulfill a degree requirement and the straight/bi girl to straight/bi guy ratio was something like 16:1. Anyway, one of the most interesting topics was feminists concern for hyperaggression which leads to violence. They had some of the same goals you do, education reform being highest. Perhaps something to think about?

[yossarian]

I just want to point out that almost no one is addressing the actual issue - instead they are focusing on the personal character of AL.

The way I look at social change is that through a crucible of passionate discussion viable and useful solutions precipitate. I definitely don't think blaming women is productive, just like the feminists who blamed men were not productive. But likewise "blaming the blamer" is also focusing on the negative. I'd rather focus on the positive and let the negative stuff be naturally boiled out over time as it will be. The negative holds no power, but even a little seed of positive will eventually germinate into a full-grown organic system.

Does anyone here actually think Akashic is speaking with a grain of truth?