male inequality and why I don't feel comfy as a man anymore.

[Squid]

Comfy isn't a very masculine word.

I must say that I don't feel very sorry for men. Women have been oppressed for the majority of human history. If we're moving toward a more matriarchal society my feelings are it's about damn time!

[anamoly]

Originally Posted by Squid

Comfy isn't a very masculine word.

I must say that I don't feel very sorry for men. Women have been oppressed for the majority of human history. If we're moving toward a more matriarchal society my feelings are it's about damn time!

It is indeed unfortunate that women have been oppressed for such a long time in history. I think that females are lovely, but to end one extreme only to head over to another perpetuates the karma. After a while, men will be like; OH SO WOMAN ARE THE BEST? NUH UH and we'll have a huge men's power movement.

Let's just relax and chill and agree that men and woman are both equally lovely and munch on a piece of celery with each others arms on each others lap giving tender-sexy-esque massages .

Mmmmmmmm.....

[Akashic_Librarian]

Squid your point is...well wrong. Women have not been opressed for all of history, only some cultures have opressed women, many did not. Egyptians revered women, Spartans had an unheard of equality in their society, neolithic men (from what our evidence shows) had a peculiar(sp?) reverity for Women (I honestly can't remember where I read this, or did I watch it on TV?) so really its only in our modern "Enlightened" society that women have been opressed.

So really a matriarchal society is not welcomed, not by a long shot. Attempts to instigate a full blown matriarchy would be shut down quickly.

[Squid]

I truly do believe that no one can make anyone feel inferior without their consent.

If you feel like your masculinity is somehow in danger of extinction then maybe you should figure out a way to assert your masculinity.

My ideal world view is of course an equal one. I've always done my best to take care of myself without relying on the opposite gender at all. This is the way I assert myself as an independant and self actualized human being.

[ThoughtAddict]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Squid your point is...well wrong. Women have not been opressed for all of history, only some cultures have opressed women, many did not.

Squid did say, "the majority of cultures have oppressed women", rather than "all cultures throughout history have oppressed women".

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Egyptians revered women, Spartans had an unheard of equality in their society, neolithic men (from what our evidence shows) had a peculiar(sp?) reverity for Women (I honestly can't remember where I read this, or did I watch it on TV?) so really its only in our modern "Enlightened" society that women have been opressed.

Both Egypt and Sparta had largely equal societies. But these were two nations, two case studies amid thousands. The statement that "its only in our modern 'Enlightened' society that women have been opressed" just isn't true. Sparta is the only city-state I know of in the ancient Hellenic world that had this kind of equality. Encyclopedia Britannica notes a consensus among anthropologists that a matriarchal society has never existed, with only a scattering of matrifocal or matrilineal societies. With some notable exceptions, women have faced oppression throughout history, in varying degrees in various cultures.

I've gotta agree with anamoly that tender sexy-esque lap massages are the most important issue here.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by ThoughtAddict

I've gotta agree with anamoly that tender sexy-esque lap massages are the most important issue here.

Yes, me too. But celery?!? I never thought of it as an aphrodisiac.

[Mr Scientist]

Originally Posted by ThoughtAddict

Both Egypt and Sparta had largely equal societies. But these were two nations, two case studies amid thousands. The statement that "its only in our modern 'Enlightened' society that women have been opressed" just isn't true. Sparta is the only city-state I know of in the ancient Hellenic world that had this kind of equality. Encyclopedia Britannica notes a consensus among anthropologists that a matriarchal society has never existed, with only a scattering of matrifocal or matrilineal societies. With some notable exceptions, women have faced oppression throughout history, in varying degrees in various cultures.

Even in Egypt, the female pharaohs often wore kingly regalia, sporting male clothing for instance, in order to solidify the legitimacy of their position. Hatshepsut is one example of a pharaoh who did this.

And as you said, Sparta was an exception in the Hellenic world, which was very male-centered. In fact, Greeks loved men so much that homosexuality was a social institution!

[niche]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

We, as a society, have slowly and methodically poisoned our young womens minds into believing Men are the root of all Evil, and our young Mens mind into believing they are wrong for being masculine. A (sadly) common thing to happen, more in the US of A than in Britain, but it still does occur over here, is that when a man holds a door for woman, rather than a polite "Thank you" and the reply "Your welcome" a good natured smile and a brighter day, you get "I don't need a man holding the door for me", "Chauvunist(sp?) Pig" etc...etc...

Not accepting someone's good nature of opening a door is purely idiotic. I, being an American woman, gladly open doors for men and accept the polite gesture in return. This should not be a man or woman thing. Just a human thing. (the true nature of feminism)

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Further more, and far more seriously, Men are constantly dehumanised in family courts, Feminist ideals have meant that men are seen as incompetent parents, and at worst an optional thing to have in a family, Single Mothers, once the image of unfortunate circumstances, accidents, or just downright unwholesome people, are now seen as pioneers, casting of the shackles of the opressive man, forging a new path for the little child who will no doubt grow up with some kind of social dysfunction, sexually confused, or a man hater. (Not my opinion, actual figures show that Children are more likely to be sexually confused, disruptive or have defective Schema when it comes to men and women).

This I believe is a crime as well. I believe both parents should enter psychological testing as a necessity when custody of a child is involved. There are far too many weirdos out there, men and women alike.

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Why is this? Why are men being so opressed. Is it because feminists (and lets admit it boys, most women) think we are inferior? Or is it just the social conditioning we have all undergone - and as a matter of interest, I have yet to see an Episode of Two and Half Men, Everybody Loves Raymond, King of Queens, Fraiser, Lab Rats, The IT crowd, Peep Show, Family Guy, The Simpsons etc...etc... where the man was not stupid, evil, incompetent, crass, rude, lazy, boring, drole, or [insert favourite insult].

These shows are meant to stereotype. This is part of comedy. As a liberal feminist, I believe that men and women are equal. For example, I believe men should have just as long paternity leave as women do maternity leave. I think it should be mandatory within a company no matter how small it is. Some females and males for that matter are raised in an environment where these stereotypes are real. All stereotypes are formed somewhere. It also seems that we gravitate towards realities that we have grown up around. Then we spread this on to our children, usually not even knowing. This is where the misjudgment comes from. Unfortunately, both men and women carry stereotypes of each other because the cultures are so different due to social upbringing.

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Secondly our education system is heavily geared towards women. It is psychologically and scientifically proven men and women have different wiring in their heads, we think differently and learn differently, Men respond better to male teachers, and women respond better to female teachers, yet schools are going out of their way to make sure MORE women are being hired. That despite a deluge of evidence, the Governments of our respective countries refuse to change the teaching methods to provide equal balance to boys and girls, and leave it favouring Girls, which can no longer be ignored because the academic achievment gap is growing steadily, and alarmingly, vast between men and women - women scoring higher.

Most of this wiring you talk of is actually socially constructed and not biologically. Yes, boys seem to be better at spatial intelligence. Do you know why? Because boys are more likely to play with blocks, trucks, and other hands on manipulatives. Studies have shown that girls who play with these type of toys also have the same grasp of spatial intelligence.

I want to write more but I've got to hurry out the door. I will write more later. I actually have statistics, yes only statistics, but facts as well to prove the wiring difference is socially constructed.

Don't feel bad for being a man! Express your true emotions whatever they may be. If people don't like it, then they're just probably jealous. lol

[Markus]

Jesus Christ, what a massive discussion.

Interesting topic.
First of all, Yossarian made a very good post around #148:

Originally Posted by yossarian

[b]
[...]
Myths about males

Myth: Males cannot be victims of rape, and females cannot rape males.

Truth: 3% of American males have been raped at least once during their life. Still, it is considered taboo to even mention. Male rape is completely ignored by the media, the medical profession, the courts, and the general public ( The National Center for Victims of Crime - Library/Document Viewer ).

Truth: By the age of 18, 40% of South African schoolboys have been raped by a female teacher. In many regions, statistics on male-victim rape are not even collected ( South African Epidemic Of Schoolboy Sexual Abuse ) .

Myth: Men don't want to teach elementary school.

Truth: Men are actively discouraged from teaching at elementary schools by parents, media, schoolboards, courts, and legislation. ( The Education Wonks: Irrational Suspicion - Thoughts And Ideas Freely Exchanged )

Myth: Male circumcision is not a barbaric procedure and has no detrimental effects on the physical health and emotional well-being of boys.

Truth: Male circumcision is completely unnecessary and has many negative effects, including emotional problems, risk of physical deformity, problems with sexual enjoyment and difficulty in masturbation. Male circumcision is not a cleanliness issue and does not prevent any diseases. The diseases that 2000 years ago it was meant to prevent are now easily cured if they were to crop up later in life. The driving force behind male circumcision in the modern era has been to discourage masturbation. Female circumcision had the same goal. Circumcision does not prevent HIV transmission either, by the way ( ICGI - Genital Integrity » Blog Archive » Male circumcision as HIV prevention found ineffective says Pasteur Institute researcher ).

Myth: Fathers are the main abusers of children, and girls receive the majority of abuse.

Truth: 71% of child murder is inflicted by the mother. 60% of the victims are male children. ( Breaking the Science: 71% of Children Killed by One Parent are Killed by Their Mothers; 60% of Victims are Boys )

Myth: Schools are biased towards boys.

Truth: Girls are massively out-performing boys in every area of achievement. Girls have access to countless female-only scholarships while male-only scholarships are almost non-existent -- even while girls graduate university at 150% the rate that boys do.

Myth: Men are not victims of domestic violence.

Truth: Only 15% of cases of domestic violence are man-on-woman violence. 35% of domestic violence cases are the wife violently assaulting the husband. ( Breaking the Science: Pure Male-On-Female Violence Accounts for Only 15% of Cases of Heterosexual Domestic Violence! )

Myth: Men are favored by social institutions.

Truth: Men who have hit rock bottom end up committing suicide or becoming homeless. Women in the same situation have access to women's shelters and various support from the government. While plenty of women are in poverty, almost the entire homeless population is male.

Myth: Men are favored by health institutions.

Truth: Funding for research on women's diseases is generally twice as high as it is for men's diseases. Breast cancer receives twice the funding as prostate cancer, yet more men die of prostate cancer than women die of breast cancer. General women's health receives twice the funding as men's health, yet men suffer more from disease than women do and die earlier in life from both disease and mental disorder. ( The Man On The Street: ---The Ignored (or is that Hidden) Truth )

If a man has grown up in the modern, post-feminism world without experiencing some form of discrimination that would not be allowed to be directed at a female, then he is either very lucky or simply not paying attention. Girls can wear jeans now (and thank God for that) but boys still cannot wear skirts. Dress codes for girls have been expanded to include pants, but dress-codes for boys have not expanded to include skirts. I will most likely be mocked for this statement, another clear example of anti-male socialization pressures.

This is a real issue that effects everyone. It doesn't matter whether a man has learned to love the status quo or not, these issues still affect his life and influence his freedom. These issues are affecting boys today at a greater rate than they EVER have, resulting in a spiking suicide rate, depression, and dropping out that is NOT mirrored in the female population. The gender gap increases every year.

[...]

I study psychology and I wondered about those points, too.

I mean, come on, how can you look at hundreds of ads and posters encouraging females for technical subjects to study but not a single one encouraging males for social subjects to study?
In one of my courses the lecturer claimed to improve the school systems for females. Isn't that a strange demand when most of the flunkers at schools are male? Thinking about that, I found it very paradoxical how even academic people could downplay and turn things around.

Well, there are books (at least in German) full of stats and points like that, which prove certain disadvantage for males. There are even parties and assosiciations which try to draw attention to this. So at least a (small but hopefully growing) bunch of people knows what's going on.


I got some thoughts about the topic, which shouldn't distract from the points above but can't be a bad thing in a >14 page discussion:

I got inspired by some of my psychology courses and I could imagine me thinking about the disadvantages of men and its public denial as part of a civilisation theory. The society can't work without oppression. Many disadvantages (e.g. in the fields fatherhood and divorce) bring solid cash for the system to function. Furthermore submissive and obedient males are good workers and their sublimated sex drive gives them energy. Paying the higher women for sex and love gives them motivation for their work. Greetings from Freud, Fromm and friends

Back to Akashic_Librarian:
I know the whole situation feels not good. I felt the same some time ago, when I lost my pink barbie glasses. I still haven't found a perfect way to deal with it, but here's what could be helpful:

• There are books about society, male disadvantages, history and so on. Unfortunately I only know German authors.
• There are anti-feminist parties and associations to join.
• Stand up against tangible discrimination at work, school, university. But do it wise and relaxed.
• There's a lot of inspiring and entertaining material. Beginning with movies like "Fight Club" to the pickup community to literature like Hornby and Palahniuk
• You can learn principles of authority, psychology, NLP and so on to improve your social and sexual life with woman to the point you like it. You'll surprised what's possible
• You can also emphasize your physical advantages and doing sports, which is very "soul-healing" and which gives you a confidence boost.
• Don't argue with trolls, feminists and polemicists. You can't convert them, but you can be sure they're not happy with their issues.
• [Edit:] I almost forgot one of the most important points: Get rid of the massmedia like TV and newspapers spreading all kind of nonsense including feminist one.
  

Hope this helps.

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

You see I think its particularly sad if a person things anything can get done without anger; anger is passion, passion is energy, energy is what is needed. I know anger is debilitating if its allowed to run wild, but controlled anger, is just a channelling of energy and thats what I am doing, I am channelling my anger, is it so inhuman of me to be severly annoyed that my whole gender is being wiped of the white-board of importance.

Is it wrong I feel insecure about my future children growing up a world surrounded by the steretype of weak man, all powerful woman.

Or maybe I feel so hard done to because more and more women in my life feel its their duty to be more masculine, to close off emotions and become power hungry bitches to satisfy the bullying feminist movement, whilst the men in my life grow increasingly scared to be male for fear of being attacked for it.

I am 17 and I can't do anything at this point, except possibly raise awareness through forums like these and if thats a crime then I am sorry, but thats a crime I am willing to commit.

And as for Holistic Star, to let go of this resentment is just giving up, giving up is for cowards as far as I am concerned. I can only hope to resolve it, to finally help us on out of this cultural delusion of equality, who ridiculous it is anyway.

I dream of a world where one is rewarded on merit, on achievement, not necessarily money, or success, or even fame but real contribution, where the shopkeeper who serves for twenty years is respected more by the kids in that neighbourhood than some moron of a sports player, or idiot celebrity in Hello! magazine.

A world where - Gasp! - a women can be inferior to a man, but also where a man can be inferior to a woman, not because we are enforced that way, or because we are tricked into believing it. But because those people earned either respect or contempt from their own actions.

Wow you're like my twin. You're definitely a male version of me. I used to say all the same things about being a woman.

For me really, the thing I didn't like about being a woman was use of slurs like the c-word, ♥♥♥♥♥, ho, etc to keep women in line. There are no slurs for men and no racial slurs of any racial or religious group are socially tolerated. It's not once in a while. There are whole multibillion dollar music industries around male domination and themes of humiliating and insulting women. I also hated the double standard of stud/slut. I hated how a man can rape a woman and then spread rumors that she had sex with him and make her out to be a liar. It's extremely difficult to prove rape in a court and most of the time the woman is verbally abused for even bringing it to the court's attention. I hated how women get gang-raped and the gangster's girlfriends attack her for sleeping with their men and everyone calls her a ho. I hated how in the black community it's all about racism and boo hoo poor, disenfranchished black men, let's ignore their obnoxious, abusive ways, because can't you see they're "oppressed". It made me angry that there are so many conformist women who say "well that's just the way it is." It made me think that maybe women really ARE inferior for allowing it to continue and for justifying it. I felt powerless in the realization that there was absolutely nothing I could do.There have been stretches of time where I went through life seeing myself and other women as ACTUAL inferiors to men. In those days I was very quiet, selfless, and servile, extremely conformist and also decidedly unmotivated to do anything with my life.

I also don't like to hear people talk of forgiveness and letting go of resentment, because that is like giving up. If people let go of resentment earlier, there would still be slavery. I agree that you can use your anger to your ADVANTAGE by sublimating it, i.e. channeling it to some creative pursuit.

Me personally I have decided to not be so bitter. Because I am a darkworker, I am not interested in being an activist. Maybe you are. That is your choice. Releasing anger does not justify sexism and give up on my principles. It says I will no longer be a slave to these injustices. I will no longer let them run my life. Or else I am no different from the millions of conformist sheep out there. The civil rights movement was not about anger. That was the Nation of Islam and the Black Panther Party. The civil rights movement was about LOVE. I think activism is really more suitable for lightworkers.

As a darkworker you should be worried about yourself, not millions of men. Or millions of women.

[CroMagna]

Everytime I read the topic of this thread "why I don't feel comfy as a man anymore" I can't help but find myself in complete and utter disbelief. There have been times in my life (substantial chunks) where I felt I would give ANYTHING to be a man. If I actually stooped to letting women--who are seen as passive, weak, selfless, emotionally vulnerable, easily malleable, pathetic, inferior beings with a dead, splintered, ridiculed movement (feminism) that most of them will never admit to being a part of--in virtually every culture, religion, and language known to man, get to me, then I would just decide to be like Tucker Max. (TuckerMax.com). I would just be a misogynistic, self-absorbed, extremely promiscuous a--hole until I got it out of my system and grew out of it. Then I would date and marry like normal people and no one would care.

I imagine that's what MOST guys do. Geez, if I were in COLLEGE for crying out loud? No WAY would I be thinking about feminism. I would join a popular team sport like football or lacrosse and join a popular fraternity. Then everything else, from the right group of male friends to the right parties to the right physique, would fall right into the place and my plan would be hatched. Most adults and even professionals would not only endorse me but would applaud. A--hole is a compliment, not a putdown, not like ♥♥♥♥♥ or whore. Women have to fight for respect, especially if they want to step outside their very restricted societal boxes, not like guys who are typically looked up to. With women you have three options: 1) conform and don't be your own person 2) become bitter about the judgemental society and develop a chip on your shoulder 3) become oblivious to society and focus on yourself. Now you see why I'm a darkworker?

[Enlightenment]

Well, thanks for that. I now know that I am not only unwholesome but part of the Feminist Farce. Thanks for putting us women in our place, good luck on your mission to reignite the male supremacy that has only been around for, say, the last 100 thousand years or more.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

Women have to fight for respect, especially if they want to step outside their very restricted societal boxes, not like guys who are typically looked up to. With women you have three options: 1) conform and don't be your own person 2) become bitter about the judgemental society and develop a chip on your shoulder 3) become oblivious to society and focus on yourself.

Well, that's one perspective on women, anyway! Not a perspective I care to use, though, because it looks like a really effective way to feel bad.

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

I imagine that's what MOST guys do. Geez, if I were in COLLEGE for crying out loud? No WAY would I be thinking about feminism. I would join a popular team sport like football or lacrosse and join a popular fraternity. Then everything else, from the right group of male friends to the right parties to the right physique, would fall right into the place and my plan would be hatched. Most adults and even professionals would not only endorse me but would applaud. A--hole is a compliment, not a putdown, not like ♥♥♥♥♥ or whore. Women have to fight for respect, especially if they want to step outside their very restricted societal boxes, not like guys who are typically looked up to. With women you have three options: 1) conform and don't be your own person 2) become bitter about the judgemental society and develop a chip on your shoulder 3) become oblivious to society and focus on yourself. Now you see why I'm a darkworker?

There are many men who are not raving a--holes or the big man on campus. Many of them conform and are not their own person or are bitter at women for the way they've been treated or are entirely self-absorbed. In other words, many men are not in such a different predicament as many women.
The grass always looks greener from the other side.

[missing]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

There are many men who are not raving a--holes or the big man on campus. Many of them conform and are not their own person or are bitter at women for the way they've been treated or are entirely self-absorbed. In other words, many men are not in such a different predicament as many women.
The grass always looks greener from the other side.

cromagna is giving a very skewered perception as to what it means to be a man in today's culture, IMO. She is describing a certain type of personality, born into a specific situation, that when taken in context with the rest of the world (or even just modern industrial society) represents a very tiny percentage of men. Yes it's true that the personality she described is often "celebrated" by society, albeit in a backhanded way. Nobody seriously "likes" these guys despite the rewards and adulation we lavish upon them. The issue for most men is that they couldn't be a Tucker Max even if they wanted to, and frankly, I don't believe most men want to. Yet this is the image of masculinity that we are pushed towards, lest we are seen as a p*ssy. Talk about being boxed in...