What to do?

[Tigerlilly]

Okay, this is my first thread asking for advice but I really don't know what to do and my intuition is giving me confusing input, and I'm totally at sea. And sorry if I have to vent a bit and that it'll turn out a longer post.

So, I met this guy six days ago, on parting we agreed to get together some time, no specific time, place or anything. Next day he mails me, asks me how I got home. I see his mail at my lunch break the day after and answer, got home well, you know. Following day I'm away all day, so the day after in the morning I learn that he left me a telephone message the evening before, and think okay, I'll call him back after work. Then I check my mail box in my lunch break and find out that he mailed me the day before -when I was away- in the morning, then called in the evening and then mailed me once more that very morning, saying, if I'm not interested in talking on the phone or doing something I could tell him, it'd be okay. And I think, what on earth???

So I mail back and find myself forced to explain what I've been up to all week, and justifying myself that if it hadn't been for the mail then I'd have called back in the evening, as in anyhow( admittedly I'm really pretty laid back which can turn into being a lazy bum, so I often run around with a bad conscience and feel the need to justify myself that way). Feeling forced to do that has me annoyed still, and I tell him that I usually see getting to know people in a pretty relaxed way, and that his mail has me think we might both be in for some frustration if he saw it differently and how does he see it? And I get a mail back on the spot that he sees it pretty relaxed as well, and that he hadn't known of course why I hadn't called or mailed back, and that he's sorry that now cause of his mail I won't call him in the evening. And I feel once more like, what on earth???

So now I've got a bad conscience cause he seemed a nice fellow and he looks hurt and I don't want people to feel worse for crossing my path and I'm just bewildered and curious to find out exactly what goes on in his mind, so I call him back in the evening, though it costs me some effort. And we talk and he does seem like a nice guy, but on the whole we just seem to live in totally different worlds plus he tells me that he was well aware of what I'd meant by telling him that I'd called back in the evening anyway as opposed to "now I won't call cause of your mail" but felt like bitching a bit. And I think, oh that's sweet, still in an odd way it's a comfort, so we agree that we do something spontaneously and that I'd call him next day in the evening -since it's weekend- if I got time and feel like it after a previous engagement, and we'd then go for a drink or whatever.

And after I hang up my first thought is, this can't work, we've got zilch in common, apart from the fact that he seems a decent fellow( but then who doesn't really?) and this morning I wake up feeling, okay, save both of you a lot of frustration and call it quits. But then I think we don't know anything of each other at all yet, it's too early to make any kind of decision, you've got to give people a chance, and he seems a decent guy. So being confused I inquire into my intuition via cards, and those tell me to give it a chance as well. And inside I grumble about it, but think okay, let's be open-minded and give it a chance. Then I check my mails and find another one from him wishing me a good morning.

I know this it totally sweet, but that only serves to make me feel worse for banging my head on my desk. For me this is like history revisited with the shadow of another needy guy driving me up the tree looming in the back of my mind. I mean, I do like this guy from what I've seen so far though we really don't seem to have much in common, I try to be open-minded and really, I wouldn't mind getting to know him, but I'm not red hot on getting to know him, like being in head over heels. And I just get this driven feel about him, though he says it's not so. And I don't know whether it's me being in the wrong or having past issues with neediness interfering with my judgement, and like this is the thing to go about it, or whether I'm being my laid back lazy bum self, or whether we're just not on the same wave length or whatever.

I'd really love to do the right thing, but admittedly I feel off center and simply confused. So, any advice or insight would be greatly appreciated.

[frajilthunder]

Well, it seems to me you're already (correctly according to your post) getting the clingy vibe from him after only being out once. He's told you he's laid back to but his actions aren't supporting that, so my guess is that he was just telling you what you want to hear. If you really want to give the guy a chance, you need to let him know that you have issues with men that are too needy. He'll either back off some and then you can proceed to...to what? Pursue a serious relationship? Is that what you want? Or he won't and you'll know then to break it off. Either way, enjoy the ride!

My guess is that your instincts are right, that he is much more interested in you than you are in him, and that his clingyness (is that a real word?) is going to end up being a deal breaker.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Tigerlilly

... this is like history revisited with the shadow of another needy guy driving me up the tree

Hi, Tigerlilly. This is not a shadow of another needy guy driving you up a tree; this is a needy guy who is driving you up a tree. You attracted him, because you've got a lesson you didn't learn last time this happened and so it is going to keep coming back until you do, with harsher consequences each time.

This fellow is announcing to you, loud and clear, who he is and what he's up to. Because you are very interested in being in a loving, long-term, mutually beneficial relationship (LLTMBR), you are warring against yourself with all this confused intuition -- on the one hand, your intuition is very clearly saying, "this guy is trouble" and on the other, you are consulting the cards to give him another chance.

To me, the man you've described sounds manipulative and creepy, not decent and sweet. I think you might go into defending him when you hear me say that: "oh, no, really, I've made him sound worse than he really is!" and I just want to point out that I hear that prologue to the Chicken Opera a lot from women, and it gets louder and more vibrant and off-key as the relationship proceeds. Pretty soon it turns into "But I LOOOOOoooove him!!!!!" or "Yes, he hit me, but he was very sorry!" That may sound melodramatic, but big relationships traps often get their start in this same way -- when a man or woman ignores what a potential suitor is telling them, loud and clear.

You deserve an LLTMBR, Tigerlilly.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by Tigerlilly

... and then mailed me once more that very morning, saying, if I'm not interested in talking on the phone or doing something I could tell him, it'd be okay.

This is a needy, clingy "nice guy". RUN away as fast as you can!!!

I have nothing more to say

[Remiel]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

This is a needy, clingy "nice guy". RUN away as fast as you can!!!

I have nothing more to say

From what I read I'd have to agree with both the diagnosis and the cure. Run!

[Tigerlilly]

Thanks a lot, everyone! I had some difficulty with receiving activation codes after changing my mail addy, so I couldn't reply any sooner, but I read all your replies on Friday and then decided to say bye to this guy and go for a LLTMBR instead.

It's really difficult sometimes to see the light when you're right in the middle of it. Apart from all else, lots of the stuff he said creeped me out, but I just wasn't sure whether I wasn't overreacting cause of the past bad experience.

Angela, what you said about history repeating itself only in a harsher way until I learned the lesson really had me sit up straight, cause comparing the last guy and this one, you're absolutely perfectly right.

[Angela]

That's so wonderful! I think you might really enjoy that book, "Make Every Man Want You" by Marie Forle, as you re-enter the world of dating for fun.

[Tigerlilly]

Originally Posted by Angela

That's so wonderful! I think you might really enjoy that book, "Make Every Man Want You" by Marie Forle, as you re-enter the world of dating for fun.

I bought it when you suggested it on another thread and am in the middle of reading it right now.

[Angela]

oh, I'm sorry to be redundant! I just love that book.

[Remiel]

Originally Posted by Tigerlilly

Thanks a lot, everyone! I had some difficulty with receiving activation codes after changing my mail addy, so I couldn't reply any sooner, but I read all your replies on Friday and then decided to say bye to this guy and go for a LLTMBR instead.

It's really difficult sometimes to see the light when you're right in the middle of it. Apart from all else, lots of the stuff he said creeped me out, but I just wasn't sure whether I wasn't overreacting cause of the past bad experience.

Angela, what you said about history repeating itself only in a harsher way until I learned the lesson really had me sit up straight, cause comparing the last guy and this one, you're absolutely perfectly right.

There's someone in what you said that reminded me of Dr Laura for a moment. I've listened to her on occasion and one thing that has struck me is that all the times I've heard of spousal questions or complaints she's always asked "Well did you know about it when you were dating?" and after the hemming and hawing they all end up saying yes, they did know about it when they were dating. At least from what I recall. In the future be sure to pay attention to the little things and be sure that you can accept them and live with them without the expectation of change. So if you can't accept those words that creeped you out then thats probably not a good sign .

[Tigerlilly]

Originally Posted by Angela

oh, I'm sorry to be redundant! I just love that book.

Hey, it was really a compliment in disguise, cause it meant I jump at your advice first chance around. And since I'm through with reading by now: Yes, it is great!

But it makes me wonder, cause lots of the things advised I'd done already intuitively( or due to other great books) and though I'm admittedly still working on an overall vision as well as details, I do feel good about my life.

And it's not like guys wouldn't be coming my way, but it's guys I'm totally out of sync with that come with so much baggage and stress attached that really I feel a wave of relief wash over me when they're out of my life once again. It's like I think: Life is good, let's go out and share it and end up with a guy on my tail reminding me of the phantom of the opera (on a spiritual level).

And it makes me miserable, cause they are nice fellows and I can see that they're unhappy and their lives don't really work the way they want to and I want to help them and I do care, on the other hand there's a strong drive in me to be happy myself and not get sucked up into their world, and I know I'll be lots happier without them, yet I feel cruel and unfeeling in pushing them back out of my life again and saving my own butt.

That's not really the situation described in the book, is it?

[Swannie]

Originally Posted by Tigerlilly

And it makes me miserable, cause they are nice fellows and I can see that they're unhappy and their lives don't really work the way they want to and I want to help them and I do care, on the other hand there's a strong drive in me to be happy myself and not get sucked up into their world, and I know I'll be lots happier without them, yet I feel cruel and unfeeling in pushing them back out of my life again and saving my own butt.

That's a lovely sentiment. Unless you have amazing strength, these nice fellows will suck you into their world. You aren't going to cultivate the strength, that is there (because you can articulate your fears clearly), by letting them in.

Don't feel cruel and unfeeling. If you stayed through the clingy-ness, something more fundamental would likely cause a problem, and then you would cause them sadness. The fact that you care enough to question actions demonstrates you feel.

Ask yourself are you strong enough to be honest with them, and tell them what the problem is. The saying "cruel to be kind" comes to mind. They may be in denial and become angry. Leave them out of your life. On the other hand they might take the red pill... Just please be sure that you are telling them because it will primarily help *them*, and helping yourself is just a side effect.

Just a thought though. Maybe you are worth those attentions. Maybe you are the most special woman this man has ever met, and he doesn't want to miss a chance by being a coward (this is, of course, a question of balance, and if by this point he could not know you beyond the superficial, it is needy behaviour).

[Angela]

It might be worth examining your deeper beliefs about relationship and men, Tigerlilly. Sounds like you get "sucked in" to sub-optimal situations with men because down deep, you believe that that's what you deserve or that's what love is or some other belief that just doesn't serve you well. You probably realize that there's a habitual negative thought pattern there, right? Well, maybe it's time to look for it, shine a light on it, and kiss it goodbye.

Meanwhile, I suggest when you date, you make a big priority of really listening to the man. He'll tell you everything you know on the first date or two. We have a special talent for hearing big red flashing loud warning signals and then ignoring them.

Of course, as long as an old pain belief is running you, you will be oblivious to those warning signals, but with focused practice, you can start to "hear" things in your conversations that will help you to pinpoint your habitual thoughts that aren't working for you.

What does your little gremlin - the little voice in your head - say to you all the time about men and relationships?

[Tigerlilly]

Originally Posted by Swannie

Just a thought though. Maybe you are worth those attentions. Maybe you are the most special woman this man has ever met, and he doesn't want to miss a chance by being a coward (this is, of course, a question of balance, and if by this point he could not know you beyond the superficial, it is needy behaviour).

I'd never imagine myself saying that in reply to someone suggesting I might be the most special woman a guy thinks he's ever met, but in this case, hopefully you're wrong. And honestly, I believe it to be so, cause he didn't know me beyond the trivial facts of life, we'd only spent one afternoon together and that wasn't spent in soul-searching.

[Tigerlilly]

Originally Posted by Angela

You probably realize that there's a habitual negative thought pattern there, right? Well, maybe it's time to look for it, shine a light on it, and kiss it goodbye.

Meanwhile, I suggest when you date, you make a big priority of really listening to the man. He'll tell you everything you know on the first date or two. We have a special talent for hearing big red flashing loud warning signals and then ignoring them.

Of course, as long as an old pain belief is running you, you will be oblivious to those warning signals, but with focused practice, you can start to "hear" things in your conversations that will help you to pinpoint your habitual thoughts that aren't working for you.

What does your little gremlin - the little voice in your head - say to you all the time about men and relationships?

After doing some soul searching looking at the guys who've been part of my life so far I figure that most of my subconscious beliefs about guys and relationships with them are a plain mirror image of my Dad's basic characteristics and my parent's marriage. It's actually pretty spooky how accurately I've been recreating both in the fellows I've been attracting into my life.

On the good side some of the characteristics I attract on auto-pilot are very attractive, like being kind-hearted and intelligent. All the guys I've attracted so far had these qualities (which makes it so hard to leave ship even when they make me feel miserable most of the time). I'd even go as far as saying that if a guy enters my life, he'll have these qualities, otherwise he wouldn't be there.

Just how to say good-bye to those negative beliefs?

I've so far dug up the possible subconscious reasons why I might want to be together with a guy who has the negative characteristics and found better reasons against it. But then I tried and found I had a hard time imagining being together with a happy, self-sufficient, self-reliant guy. I know needy, insecure, controlling, self-pity trips and temper tantrums, I know all about that and where I stand with that, even if that's knee deep in the mud most of the time.

But I know nothing about what a healthy, loving, mutually beneficial relationship between mature and fully-rounded people is to look like. I wouldn't even know where to look to find a model for this sort of thing to which I could model my vision and make it more than mere words to which I can add no real flesh in my imagination. The only alternative to being unhappy together I can easily imagine is being far more happy on my own. Help!!!

What I need to move ahead in the direction of a LLTMBR is a real-life, fleshed-out vision of it, something I can fix my focus on. Any suggestions in how to go about that?

[Angela]

What qualities and conditions do you feel would be present in an LLTMBR?

[Lea]

I say "LISTEN TO ANGELA!" Wish someone had been around to warn me before it was too late. If you to want to learn the psychological and behavioral signs of abusers then go to Signs Of Abusive Personalities |Ocean Of Perspectives

The strongest skills of an abusive person is their ability to manipulate people they encounter. Including playing the role of "victim." This guy has you explaining yourself and your activities, actions, etc. to him after only one date. Not a good sign.

Just because you realize something or someone isn't good for you and you severe any contact with it or them, doesn't not change the fact that you are a nice, loving and caring person. It just means you are also a smart person who knows what and who you need to avoid.

[WCLV]

To the OP

It really just sounds like you two are having a communication issue. Which, if you are having that from the get-go, then you should probably walk away.

Don't stress too much about doing the "right thing", you don't owe him anything. You don't even know him. I mean you didn't sleep with him the day you met him right?

[Tigerlilly]

Originally Posted by Angela

What qualities and conditions do you feel would be present in an LLTMBR?

I've been working on that for the whole last week now ever since you posted the question, trying to figure it out in my morning pages.

Digging down to the very basics I guess it'd be the following: A surplus of love, alive and hopping in both partners, love for themselves, for each other, for life. Just the same having faith, in themselves, in each other and in life.

All the other good qualities and conditions seem to sprout naturally from these two basic qualities.

@Lea Thanks for the link; reading the signs I had shivers running down my spine, some of it sounded all too familiar. It's so difficult not too feel guilty with vulnerable, even good-hearted, doggy-eyed tyrants holding you by a chain of your own loving instincts.

@WCLV Nope, strictly ballroom behaviour.

[say]

I only read the first few lines, and instantly this phone message came to my mind:
» The Douchiest Phone Message In History

Sorry if it's not helpful, but maybe you'll find it funny.

[Tigerlilly]

Originally Posted by say

I only read the first few lines, and instantly this phone message came to my mind:
» The Douchiest Phone Message In History

Sorry if it's not helpful, but maybe you'll find it funny.

Geeh, now that guy was a total psycho. If the guy I met had been anything like that, I'd not have to think twice about what decision to make, but instead about how fast I can get my phone number changed.

The guy I met was perfectly okay. I mean, I didn't x-ray his soul but he came over as a nice fellow, so I'd never dream of calling him a douche bag. Nor would I go as far as calling him a doggy-eyed tyrant for that matter, I really don't know him well enough for that.

Reading the signs of an abusive personality actually brought another guy to my mind, who beat his wife up for years, and when she finally left him, he had a heart attack and voila she was back with him within a few days time. And he had the softest voice and the largest puppy eyes imaginable, he came over as just totally nice and vulnerable, you'd never think he could hurt a fly if you hadn't know better. Now, THAT was a full blown, physically abusive personality and the kind of doggy-eyed tyrant I had in mind.

The guy I met -though it's hard to know of course for lack of knowing any better- I'd say, he wasn't like that, but just an averagely nice guy with some personal problems, which created unhappiness in his life and would have created unhappiness in mine had I let him into it, and that made it tough to decide.

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by Lea

I say "LISTEN TO ANGELA!" Wish someone had been around to warn me before it was too late. If you to want to learn the psychological and behavioral signs of abusers then go to Signs Of Abusive Personalities |Ocean Of Perspectives

I really appreciate you putting this up. I think it's something every guy should read. The big one is low self-esteem. IMO, this is where it all gets started.

Awareness is key. Much thanks again.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Tigerlilly

Digging down to the very basics I guess it'd be the following: A surplus of love, alive and hopping in both partners, love for themselves, for each other, for life. Just the same having faith, in themselves, in each other and in life.

All the other good qualities and conditions seem to sprout naturally from these two basic qualities.

Okay. So if those qualities were present in your relationships, what would you be being? You, yourself, on your own, independently of anything anyone else says or does; what would YOU be being?

[Tigerlilly]

Originally Posted by Angela

Okay. So if those qualities were present in your relationships, what would you be being? You, yourself, on your own, independently of anything anyone else says or does; what would YOU be being?

Funny, my first spontaneous answer when reading the question was: I'd be a writer. Which really hasn't much to do with who I am as a person. But thing is, the kind of life I'd love to live and share doesn't feature me working as a lawyer. Not that I hate my job, but if I imagine La vie en rose in my mind, it's simply not part of it.

And now, when I think about it, all the guys I got entangled with so far weren't happy with their chosen career paths. To put it mildly. If the folks drawn into your life are mirrors, then I am having an issue here that pretty much screams to be dealt with. Hm, I need to think on this...

Thanks, Angela!