Male vs. Female: Compliments and Support

[The Cloud]

I think I know why it was so hard for me to really feel my answers. I believe that I have linked "I can't win" with feeling. Feeling hurt is what separates me from people that can win. If you look at little grade-school kids, it's always the ones that react that get picked on. It's always the ones that show their feelings about being picked on, the ones that show how much it hurts. I was one of those kids. I was always the odd one out in my class (small school, so only 21 kids in my entire grade). In a class full of boys that liked shop and football, I was the kid who liked science and bugs. I just didn't fit in, and the fact that I wasn't aggressive or good at sports really put me at a disadvantage. So when I got picked on, I cried, which only made things worse. The more I felt, the more I showed what I felt, the more I got picked on. So perhaps that is where I decided that I couldn't win because I could feel. I get a really vague sense of a memory about making that decision, that feeling is what was making me lose, that feeling was why I couldn't fit in. Perhaps I decided that since I feel bad when I fail, I fail because I feel bad. Feeling is what keeps me from winning. That is what I believe my belief is.

[lasti]

My view on compliments: I have also problems with giving compliments. But I'm female. I see it more as difficulty to get close to other people.
But I don't see compliments as derogatory. I'd see criticism as derogatory.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

The difficulty is that I'm a perfect person living in a world that won't allow him to grow or flourish.

That's a world in which you certainly can't win! Your limiting belief is not necessarily apparent as a "there's something wrong with me" kind of "I am." Sometimes it's just a matter of seeing what you believe is The Truth about who you are, that's just the way it is. You had the bad fortune to be born into a world that won't allow you to grow or flourish (that's a belief worth examining for truth, by the way). And it leads you back to the habitual negative meaning you make: "I am a person who was born into a world that won't allow me to grow or flourish." My guess is that your little child-self probably put it more kid-dy, more succinctly, and in a way that puts an arrow into your heart as an enlightened, conscious adult, because if you heard your own little child express the belief the way she believes it, you would wish for her more power in letting go of what she doesn't need.

That is the one really big power a child does have, though; he believes what he believes and no one can *make* him not believe it.

[Angela]

The Cloud, I'd like to suggest to you another perspective. It wasn't feeling or showing your feelings that had you be picked on, it was being reactive rather than responsive that had the kids pick on you (which was their reaction to your way of being -- scientific and smart -- which triggered their old pain which might have had something to do with: "I'm stupid" or "I'm not good enough."

Your reactiveness, in turn, activated their own reactiveness -- their own pain decisions -- and it created a cycle of reactivity that kids are just not taught how to break, normally. Wouldn't it be great if they were?

But you've collapsed it all together -- you've made it mean (in your little child consciousness, not as an enlightened adult) that feeling = pain. I think it's a lot more accurate to see that it's reactiveness = pain, and that it's a perpetual motion machine.

[The Cloud]

I know I'm jumping all over the place, but I think I've narrowed down the "I'm not allowed to feel." I think that I've decided that I'm not allowed to love. I see my love as an inconvenience for other people, something that they don't really want to know about and just find to be disturbing or awkward. When I was thinking about this, I remembered something that I thought about a couple of months ago. There's this girl that I love (I don't mean am attracted to or need to be with, just love), and I was considering telling her. One phrase that I thought from then stuck with me. "I'm sorry, but I love you." As if it was just something that would push her away. I never did tell her, because I was afraid that if I told her she would find it intolerable to be around me anymore.

Since I can't show love or be allowed to feel it around people, I end up trying to connect with them through the things that I do or services I proved. By being smart or funny or useful. But none of that really feels like connection, because it's all impermanent. I always have to be doing more, refreshing the connection, because it never lasts much longer than the action used to create it. And it doesn't feel like a connection. So I can't win, no matter what I do there is no way to win if I want to be with people. I can push them away with the love that is supposed to connect me to them, or I can forgo that love and settle for a superficial connection that doesn't satisfy.

As to where this belief came from, I have no idea at the moment. I think that I'm getting close to the root of the matter, but I don't know how far this has to go before that happens. Incidentally, I'm going to tell the girl that I love her, if only so that I know that I did it. So that I will no longer have to be afraid of what will happen.

[Angela]

Just please don't say "I'm sorry, I love you." That could be taken as a little insulting, don't you think?

[The Cloud]

So I had the opportunity to tell her tonight, and I didn't. Instead, every time I thought of it I became terrified beyond reason. I imagined an impassable chasm forming between us if I even brought up the subject. I know that this is not what would happen, at worst it would be temporarily awkward and swiftly forgotten, but my fear was beyond reason and not subject to its rigors.

I had thought that since I was able to go through with the call from Angela despite my fear, and in fact to do so without even considering cancelling, I would be able to simply overcome the fear. But I am so incredibly convinced that her knowing of my love will come between us that it hardly even felt like an option to go ahead and do it. With Angela, I knew that quitting would be counterproductive and that going ahead had little chance of negative consequences beyond awkwardness. There wasn't much at stake. But with my friendship, there is a huge amount at stake as I value it very much.

I imagined what the conversation would be like, and I think it sheds some light on my situation. I imagined me saying that I loved her, and her asking what the hell I mean. Then I got really angry, yelling "Why do I have to mean anything? Why do there always have to be strings attached [to my love]? Why can't you just let me love you, it doesn't hurt you, it doesn't cost you anything. Why do I always have to need something?"

My perception of her perception was that love was just something to be used to get things from somebody. There are always strings attached, and I can't just love somebody because they will always be looking for them. No matter what my perception is, I will always be seen as trying to use them or get something from them.

I don't know that I will be able to get through this with sheer willpower, so I'm going to put myself in a bind. I will arrange a meeting, letting her know that I have something to tell her without telling her what it is. I'm certain that I can do at least that much. Then, once I'm forced into the situation, I will have little other choice than to face my fear. I didn't want to do it this way because I wanted to have the strength to come right out and say it, but I suppose cunning self-manipulation will need to play its part. But I'm going to do this, no matter how roundabout a way I have to go.

[The Cloud]

So I told her. I don't really feel any different now, aside from not feeling all icky from the thought of telling her. Her response was better than I anticipated. Of course, it wasn't "Oh wow I love you too," but she seemed to appreciate it at least. She also seemed to be in shock, so I don't know how this is going to change our relationship.

Goes to show how, no matter what I do, it's how I think that has to change. Maybe I learned something, maybe this is the right path, but there was no sweeping moment of clarity. I don't even know what I expected, and even less what I really wanted. This is the real manifestation of "I can't win." I feel as if I did something of extraordinary difficulty, all for nothing. Nothing changed, nothing is better, everything is the same sh***y mess. I could do it again, just so that I could get the same results. All to no point. Is there supposed to be a point? I don't know, I don't know what the point is. I keep asking myself what it is that I really want out of all this, and nothing comes to mind.

I've been doing this to myself for almost two years. Am I going to have to keep going for the rest of my life? Sometimes I wish I'd never realized that there is something worthwhile in me and the world. I don't want to do this to myself anymore. I'm always asking why, and I never really get the answer. I never really get at it. I have my moments of clarity, but they're gone before I can really enjoy them, and then I'm left with just a bitter sense of having lost something that could have been great. It never lasts more than a moment. Was it even real? Is all the stuff I'm saying on this forum, in real life, all BS? If it isn't making me happy, if it isn't making me successful, if it isn't making me more friends or more money or more satisfaction, then what good it any of it? I just don't want to fight for it anymore. I don't even know what it is I'm fighting for, I'm just fighting out of a sense of duty to some idea in the past that has long since lost its usefulness. I don't know what to do. I stop fighting, nothing happens. If I fight, nothing happens.

The worst thing is that this is all fake. All the emotion I'm putting into this is a farce. I'm saying all these things, feeling all these feelings, but as soon as as I step out of my room I will be able to put it all away and be my usual jovial self. I can put on whatever front I want, but it never gets me anywhere. The more I try to feel, the more I know that it's just the effort I'm feeling, it's not really anything that's going to help me.

I would love to hear any responses, but I suspect it'll be nothing I haven't heard before, the same [seemingly] worthless drivel that I've been spewing for everybody else's benefit. I know that's not what it is, but that doesn't change how I feel.

[Angela]

Yeah, how can you win if you don't even know what the rules are? What would winning have looked like in the situation with that woman, or in any other circumstance of your life for that matter? It's like if I were playing beach volleyball and I declare that we will just keep playing until everyone feels the game is over and someone has won. Well, we'll end up playing until we're exhausted and then we'll collapse, frustrated, unsatisfied, unfulfilled.

Sounds like that's kind of where you are.

The impact of pretending like you can win, of trying to avoid people seeing that you can't -- it leaves you exhausted, doesn't it? and unsatisfied and unfulfilled; frustrated and alone. What about the impact on others? You might not see this, but your resignation about "I can't win" is something that that girl is picking up on, at least subconsciously and maybe even consciously. Other people, too. You're really sad, right? That's also the impact you have on others. Be with these impacts, The Cloud; experience them fully.

What new possibility arises for you? What possibility did you commit to practice the other day? What did you you commit to practice letting go of? Was that just a commitment to do that when it was easy, when your gremlin is taking the day off? Or are you willing to look your gremlin in the eye now and send him packing?

Who are you? Who are you willing to be, right now?

[The Cloud]

I'm angry. Angry and tired, tired of catering to people's fickle emotional needs, tired of trying not to hurt or offend anyone, tired of worrying about whether or not I will. Tired of being a slave to people's irrational feelings. I'm soo mad at all of them, at everybody, for being so irrational, for being so unable to take responsibility for their own god d*m*ed emotions. I want to feel that I don't have to take this responsibility. I don't know why I do. Why do I? I want to be allowed to be angry. Does everybody want to be able to feel this way, or to feel what they want to feel? Does everybody want to take responsibility for their emotions? To not have me cater to them, but to be able to be angry at me when I do something they don't like, or ignore or don't do what they want and think is a reasonable request? To not have to worry about being polite or friendly? I dunno, maybe I'm on to something here, or maybe this is just another false lead. Well, I'll find out soon enough.

Angela, on a side note, maybe this could help you with future sessions. Create a safe place for the person to be angry, a place where they don't feel they have to worry about yelling or swearing around you. I don't know, maybe you thought that was implicit, but if you make it explicitly stated perhaps that could help people with a lot of pent up anger. That is, if you're willing to put up with it

[Pegasus]

Hi, The Cloud!

Hang in there, the anger will be transformed into something else [positive, I hope].

The overall message I get from your posts in this thread is, "I am a burden." Then you twist it around as anger at others for being a burden to you. Is creating connections something you really want? I find it a bit, um, funny, when I see your signature and you use words like CONQUER. Perhaps choosing something more connective, such as RECREATE or LOVE would help guide you in creating something more inspiring.

[The Cloud]

Originally Posted by Pegasus

Hi, The Cloud!

Hang in there, the anger will be transformed into something else [positive, I hope].

The overall message I get from your posts in this thread is, "I am a burden." Then you twist it around as anger at others for being a burden to you. Is creating connections something you really want? I find it a bit, um, funny, when I see your signature and you use words like CONQUER. Perhaps choosing something more connective, such as RECREATE or LOVE would help guide you in creating something more inspiring.

Thank you. Perhaps you are right. I didn't choose the word conquer, though. Not deliberately. That phrase came from my own mind of its own volition. Perhaps it was just me telling myself something important using the only words I could understand at the time. Perhaps conquer isn't the right word, now, but it was and could be no other word. Maybe I can let go of the past, now, and look to the future. Perhaps in leaving, the phrase will change my life as drastically as it did when it arrived. Maybe that is what you are trying to tell me. Maybe I will be able to listen now as I listened then.

[sleon]

A few days ago I had a pretty vivid dream in which some woman and my husband wanted to have sex, and I was fine with that. I was even in the room, doing something else, while they had wild sex. I was totally calm and accepting...right up until the moment he gave her a compliment (I think it was something about being cute or pretty). And THEN I was completely PISSED OFF!!! How dare he compliment some other woman, when he never compliments me!

*snicker*

Anyways, Cloud, you remind me a little of my husband, having a difficulty with compliments and conflicted self-worth issues and childhood abandonment and such. It's undoubtedly a great growth experience, what you're going through right now, difficult though it is. I just wanted to send a vibe of *empathy*, loving as I do a beautiful person with many similarities.

Keep at it. You'll get there.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

Angela, on a side note, maybe this could help you with future sessions. Create a safe place for the person to be angry, a place where they don't feel they have to worry about yelling or swearing around you. I don't know, maybe you thought that was implicit, but if you make it explicitly stated perhaps that could help people with a lot of pent up anger. That is, if you're willing to put up with it

Thank you for that, The Cloud. And I can assure you people sure do get angry and yell and swear when they see the impact old pain beliefs have on their lives and the lives of others! Whoooo-boy do some people need to let off some steam! Some people get really in touch with how angry they are at themselves for allowing themselves to be run by this old, outdated program.

And once they express that anger (and have taught me a few new good cursewords), people are able to forgive themselves, because they see that it was absolutely necessary for them to go through what they've gone through in order to get where they are. It's perfectly perfect that they have been stopped and ineffective, because it makes available to them grand expansion. Grand expansion can be uncomfortable! Remember growing pains? My breasts grew suddenly from zero to c-cup when I was nine years old, and boy did that hurt like a son of a gun! Also, I quickly grew to be the tallest girl in school right around that time, and I remember my arms and legs being so stinkin' sore as I grew like a beanstalk. Yowch! Now that I am remembering it, I was pretty pissed off at the world, for that and menstrual cramps. Sassafrassssaaa sassafrrasaaa.....grrrrrr.

There's nothing wrong with being angry or expressing your anger. It's a wonderful freedom, and through anger, just like through sadness or confusion or loneliness, being present and accepting of what you feel is a brilliant way to get yourself to a whole new level of loving your life.

Did you feel stopped about expressing your anger when you speaking with me? Do you want to get back on the phone and I'll listen to your growling and cursing? I'm glad to do it, because I know you are working through your commitment to yourself to let go of "I can't win" and to take on creating connections. I see you for who you are: a mad scientist of love.

[The Cloud]

Just want to do an update to let ya'll following this that I haven't given up. I had a minor realization recently, which I think is key in my miscognition. It came in the form of a phrase;

"I owe nothing for your gratitude."

I don't owe anybody anything for feeling gratitude toward me. It made me aware of how I always play the game of "Who is more thankful?" If somebody says Thank You, I have to acknowledge their thanks in a way that says "Thank you for thanking me". Then it just becomes an endless uncomfortable game of who shows more gratitude, because the one who shows the least is in debt of the one who shows the most. It seems to me that that's the reason that people say thank you so much, as if gratitude was a commodity that could be given in trade. Somebody gives you money, thank you very much. Somebody opens a door, thank you very much. Somebody returns a lost item to you, thank you very much. It's all so fake and artificial, the thanks often aren't genuine and are only given because they are owed as if the word is what is important rather than the feeling. I'm not sure what this means in the larger scheme of things, but I really think that it's essential for me to understand if I am to ever overcome this.

Another thing that I found myself thinking was "I don't know what your question is." I have this idea that I'm always being asked for something by people, but they don't know what it is they are asking and so I can never satisfy their need. Everyone is a bottomless pit of need that can never be filled because it is never defined. Like I'm not talking to real people, and so I can't fulfill their needs as a real person. Everybody else is an undefined unsubstantiated desire not to know the truth, and so I must be a lie in order to support their lie. I act because my act reinforces the act of others. If I was real, then I would put lie to everybody's act, which is a very painful thing for them. They don't want the real me because the real me is worthless to them in their game of pretend. And they all seem to want to pretend.

I've been asking myself what I really want out of people, what it is that I actually desire. I realized that I don't want advice, I don't want sympathy, I don't want pity, I want reality. I want somebody to be real, somebody that doesn't want me to put up a front, somebody that isn't afraid of and won't be hurt by the truth of my existence. Not somebody that is trying to help me or improve me or fix me, but somebody that doesn't care about any of that and cannot be harmed by me. I talk to my friends, my family, the people closest to me, but none of them know how to not be afraid of me, they don't even have a foggy idea of what I'm talking about. Even the ones that know about the act and hate it as much as I do can't set it aside. We're all trapped by each other in an endless self-reinforcing web of deceit. A web that I cling to desperately because if I let go then it all falls apart. I'm afraid of my own power to destroy the illusion, afraid because nobody else seems to wants the illusion destroyed, which is the same reason they are afraid. Nobody wants it for themselves, everybody just desperately needs it for everybody else's sake. Sometimes I get this feeling of incredible possibility, as if I could do anything if I weren't trapped in my own head. But I am trapped, and too afraid not to be.

[kboleski]

I thought that I would respond with what occurred to me when as I read this thread. Where does the belief come from that paying compliments is unnecessary or fake or that thank you's are always fake? Who ever equated paying a compliment to someone for a job well done, to looking down on them because of your imagining that person is insecure and needs the compliment? Some people are overly needy of compliments to define them, and that is an entirely different issue. I am just talking about every day relating to others. We live in a very critical world. People climbing over each other to get to the top, others being highy critical. The negativity is around us. I just try to not pay attention to that. Someone being negative or critical towards ME, I am realizing is just their problem. They have their own insecurities and have to project those on whomever they can to feel better about themselves.

It made me smile when I read that you most look forward to reading responses to your posts. It is a great feeling to read that someone agrees with you. It is validating. Isn't that the least we can do for eachother? Why not, give each other a boost. People DO great things - everyone loves a compliment. We are all trying so hard, that it is just nice that the effort is acknowledged. Everyone needs a little validation. It lets you know that you are "all-right" with others and that your opinion is on par, or exceptionally helpful. You put that effort out there to help others, and a thank you is perfect, but when others are on the same page, it just does something for you that makes you feel good. Just look at it as a little support for your fellow man. Everyone needs it!

I know what you are talking about when you talk about "fakeness." I just don't bother with it. I hang around people that have my same values and actually feel sorry for the "fake" that I see. It is a game and you have to play it if you want to be "in" the "in" crowd. It is difficult to not get caught up in it, but because I don't want to define myself that way, it makes it easier for me to stay away from it.

Stop focusing on all of that. Just focus on you. Who are you? What are you worth? What defines you? What do you want people to think about you? Are you comfortable in your own skin? How do you want to be defined? Relax. Stop looking at the negativity and fakeness. FORGET ABOUT IT! Focus on what makes life so important and will help you feel complete - love, loving yourself, giving love to others. Actually, giving your love to everyone you meet in the form of a smile, a atta boy, help in some way. You are too focused on the fake and negative about people that you don't have the time or energy to make a difference. Set the example. If someone is negative around you, say something positive every time. If someone is fake, just be real. That is the best "revenge" because when you walk away, most people will respect you for it. Only the completely lost in the fakeness game won't let themselves see it because they are too far removed from what is real.

You have to love yourself first, for exactly who you are. You can't give it all away, but you do have to help others. You actually seem like a pretty awesome person, and very capable of giving and making a difference around you. Your focus is just in the wrong place. I call this the "judgment place." You are caught up in a negative thoughts and outlook, and you are actually judging others. Stop doing that. Quit looking at anyone that way. You are probably right about those people, but just stop assigning judgment to separate yourself from them. Just live life by your own designs, and forget about them. What you do, how you are, who you are, your integrity will separate you from those kinds of people.

Anyway, I am rambling a little long here, but I thought I would throw this out to you. It is akin to what I have experienced and I realized that it isn't about me, about what I think about others. It is about who I am, how I live my life, what I do for others, my character and integrity, etc... and if I live according to my ideal of those things, then I am fine the way I am.

PS, there really are a lot of people that do mean thank you when they say it. I am a person that appreciates, REALLY appreciates when someone does something for me, because no one has to do anything for you. I mean thank you when I say it. I hang around people who are real and appreciative. Don't give yourself away to those who will take everything you have and not appreciate your efforts. You can speak nicely to them, pay them a compliment, be a team player at work with them, and these things don't cost you anything. GIVE of yourself to those you know will appreciate your help, concern, friendship, etc... and you won't feel used.

[The Cloud]

Originally Posted by kboleski

You have to love yourself first, for exactly who you are. You can't give it all away, but you do have to help others. You actually seem like a pretty awesome person, and very capable of giving and making a difference around you. Your focus is just in the wrong place. I call this the "judgment place." You are caught up in a negative thoughts and outlook, and you are actually judging others. Stop doing that. Quit looking at anyone that way. You are probably right about those people, but just stop assigning judgment to separate yourself from them. Just live life by your own designs, and forget about them. What you do, how you are, who you are, your integrity will separate you from those kinds of people.

Anyway, I am rambling a little long here, but I thought I would throw this out to you. It is akin to what I have experienced and I realized that it isn't about me, about what I think about others. It is about who I am, how I live my life, what I do for others, my character and integrity, etc... and if I live according to my ideal of those things, then I am fine the way I am.

PS, there really are a lot of people that do mean thank you when they say it. I am a person that appreciates, REALLY appreciates when someone does something for me, because no one has to do anything for you. I mean thank you when I say it. I hang around people who are real and appreciative. Don't give yourself away to those who will take everything you have and not appreciate your efforts. You can speak nicely to them, pay them a compliment, be a team player at work with them, and these things don't cost you anything. GIVE of yourself to those you know will appreciate your help, concern, friendship, etc... and you won't feel used.

Lol I know my focus is in the wrong place, because it's on blame. I can't seem to shake the idea that everything has to be somebody's fault, either somebody else's or my own. If I stop blaming everybody else, then it becomes my fault. If I stop blaming myself, it becomes their fault. I know that in truth it's nobody's fault, but how does one convert knowledge into understanding? And I can't focus on the positive, because every attempt to do so only emphasizes for me that there is a negative. I know all this, intellectually. I can talk about it logically and make the connections and put all the puzzle pieces together. But a puzzle is just a flat picture, it's not real. I know, but I don't understand. How does one understand? THAT I do not know.

[kboleski]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

Lol I know my focus is in the wrong place, because it's on blame. I can't seem to shake the idea that everything has to be somebody's fault, either somebody else's or my own. If I stop blaming everybody else, then it becomes my fault. If I stop blaming myself, it becomes their fault. I know that in truth it's nobody's fault, but how does one convert knowledge into understanding? And I can't focus on the positive, because every attempt to do so only emphasizes for me that there is a negative. I know all this, intellectually. I can talk about it logically and make the connections and put all the puzzle pieces together. But a puzzle is just a flat picture, it's not real. I know, but I don't understand. How does one understand? THAT I do not know.

I understand where you are coming from, maybe not completely, but definitely in the ballpark! I had a childhood, loved and all, but, the kind that created doubt, and some abandonment issues. I always felt the need to "prove myself." It is hard for most anyone to accept blame. I try not to look at it as blame if I can turn it into something else. If the person is really being respectful and trying to help, I try to find the silver lining in the comment and accept that is an area where I can improve. If it is undeserved, then I address it and why. Other people don't want to accept the blame either. Assigning blame usually isn't the right answer either. Most of the time, no one is to BLAME, it just is what it is, happened and now we have to deal with it I really think that is just fear, ego, pride, etc... being cloaked as blame from someone who couldn't face the truth, accept the blame, or wasn't in control of the situation. Sometimes, we screw up and have to admit, "Yeah, I screwed up. It is my fault." That isn't very often. If someone admits their error and owns it, I respect them immensely!!!! Own it! No one is perfect. We are all trying. Some will project their crap on you, don't let it stick. BUT, you don't have to focus on who is to blame. In the big picture, who cares about blame. It is just a negative thought. Own your actions. Own your errors. Learn from them, and move on. Don't focus on the negativity that the blame, the discussion, brought into your life. Just move on and focus on the postive and/or on the stuff that REALLY matters.

So, I guess what I am trying to say here is, let it go. Who cares who is to blame? It really doesn't matter. I know, you are thinking, "The hell it doesn't!" Just keep working on it. Try to diminish the importance of having to be right, or having to defend yourself to ward off blame being pinned on you. It is probably one of the hardest things to say in the face of blame, "I have no clue where you possibly could have gotten that." or, "I am really sorry that is what you think, but you are mistaken.", or, "I wish someone had let ME KNOW!", or, "I didn't receive the memo!", something that quickly turns it around. Try to turn your responses into a game of fun/funny retorts. They need to be respectful, but they can be light. You know that you aren't to blame. In time, most everyone else will too. It just doesn't seem that way.

Anyway, there is not a magic answer, but you can take advice, apply it where you see fit, keep trying (it is hard to break habits, especially deep emotional/mind habits.), be honest with yourself, and be nice to yourself. Remember, no one is perfect. Did I say to keep trying? We all make mistakes. It is a part of life, but it doesn't have to ruin one moment.

[garentee]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

Just want to do an update to let ya'll following this that I haven't given up. I had a minor realization recently, which I think is key in my miscognition. It came in the form of a phrase;

"I owe nothing for your gratitude."

I don't owe anybody anything for feeling gratitude toward me. It made me aware of how I always play the game of "Who is more thankful?" If somebody says Thank You, I have to acknowledge their thanks in a way that says "Thank you for thanking me". Then it just becomes an endless uncomfortable game of who shows more gratitude, because the one who shows the least is in debt of the one who shows the most. It seems to me that that's the reason that people say thank you so much, as if gratitude was a commodity that could be given in trade. Somebody gives you money, thank you very much. Somebody opens a door, thank you very much. Somebody returns a lost item to you, thank you very much. It's all so fake and artificial, the thanks often aren't genuine and are only given because they are owed as if the word is what is important rather than the feeling. I'm not sure what this means in the larger scheme of things, but I really think that it's essential for me to understand if I am to ever overcome this.

Another thing that I found myself thinking was "I don't know what your question is." I have this idea that I'm always being asked for something by people, but they don't know what it is they are asking and so I can never satisfy their need. Everyone is a bottomless pit of need that can never be filled because it is never defined. Like I'm not talking to real people, and so I can't fulfill their needs as a real person. Everybody else is an undefined unsubstantiated desire not to know the truth, and so I must be a lie in order to support their lie. I act because my act reinforces the act of others. If I was real, then I would put lie to everybody's act, which is a very painful thing for them. They don't want the real me because the real me is worthless to them in their game of pretend. And they all seem to want to pretend.

I've been asking myself what I really want out of people, what it is that I actually desire. I realized that I don't want advice, I don't want sympathy, I don't want pity, I want reality. I want somebody to be real, somebody that doesn't want me to put up a front, somebody that isn't afraid of and won't be hurt by the truth of my existence. Not somebody that is trying to help me or improve me or fix me, but somebody that doesn't care about any of that and cannot be harmed by me. I talk to my friends, my family, the people closest to me, but none of them know how to not be afraid of me, they don't even have a foggy idea of what I'm talking about. Even the ones that know about the act and hate it as much as I do can't set it aside. We're all trapped by each other in an endless self-reinforcing web of deceit. A web that I cling to desperately because if I let go then it all falls apart. I'm afraid of my own power to destroy the illusion, afraid because nobody else seems to wants the illusion destroyed, which is the same reason they are afraid. Nobody wants it for themselves, everybody just desperately needs it for everybody else's sake. Sometimes I get this feeling of incredible possibility, as if I could do anything if I weren't trapped in my own head. But I am trapped, and too afraid not to be.

My hats off to you The Cloud for being bold enough to take this on... It is amazing work that you are carrying forward with. When you are speaking about the idea of thanks being fake or forced, in some cases yes it is true. that said though, There are a lot of times when the person who has been paid the compliment or given the gift etc cannot say thank you. It means they cannot emotionally accept the thought or gift. had an experience recently where I paid a really good friend of mine a very high compliment and she could not receive it. She has a hard time receiving love and I have a hard time giving and receiving it so for me to be able to give in that situation and for her not to receive was tough, but I called her on it because I know that it is safe for me now to give and receive. What ever you do please don't give up. You have a lot of great wisdom to give. Thanks for your many insights both to my posts and those that have inspired me and others.

[The Cloud]

I think that I've realized a few things recently. Not in a big way, but in a way nonetheless.

First off, I think that it's my belief that I am not allowed to harm other people that is holding me back. I kept attacking the "I hurt people" belief from the angle of convincing myself that I don't. But now I've realized that I may have to attack it from the angle of convincing myself that it is alright to hurt people (by hurt I don't mean rape and pillage, I mean more like inconvenience with my own ambitions). Why must I always consider other people? To hell with them, I'm doing what I want and I'm going to do it whether or not they're in the way. That's the feeling that I'm having lately; that I want to do what I want without having to consider the repercussions for other people as more important than doing it. It's just such a difficult belief to adjust, because who would think to attack a belief that says "do no harm"? I can see why it took me so long to realize that this is what needs to be adjusted, because it flips my ideas of right and wrong on their heads. For example, with my roommate situation my focus used to be on not screwing my roommate over by not being able to pay my part of the rent. But now my focus would be more along the lines of not even considering him or the rent or anybody else and doing what I want regardless. Nobody is going to tell me that this is the right way to think, nobody is going to agree with me on it if I express it to anyone, and yet I'm convinced that this is the way I'm going to have to think in order to be happy with my life.

I've also realized that doing nothing is also a positive action. I'm never actually doing nothing, I'm always doing something, but I became so focused on what I was not doing that I failed to realize that I'm actively shaping my destiny. I got so caught up in what I wasn't doing but was expected to do that I couldn't even consider doing what I wanted. So I'm doing more what I want, and thinking less about what I don't want but am expected to do anyways.

Does any of this make me feel any better or more at peace? I don't think so. But I'm finally feeling energy to live again. I have things that I want, and things that I can do to get them. It's not even so much that I want things, but it feels so good to be able to want them, to be able to take action in an effort to achieve something. I feel angry, I feel stressed, I know it's not going to last and I'm going to crash eventually, but I don't care. I want to do something, to take action, and to have desires to make it worth it. I'm alive. Love me or hate me, but I am.

Maybe I'm the one that hates myself for it. Maybe that is why I'm stressed and angry, because I hate myself for wanting things. There is a dichotomy of feeling that I'm not in touch with, and that is why I have so much trouble with doing things. Maybe I haven't accepted myself as a person with wants and needs of his own, and so I need to feel angry in order to be able to overcome that self-loathing.

Oh, and as long as this is going to be a long post, I may as well add some more. It's one more example of things that I wouldn't have expected to be the problem. The person I'm most angry at from my childhood is my mother. I think that it is precisely because I love her so much that I hate her so much. She married my step-father when I was pretty young, probably between kindergarten and second grade. He was a terrible influence on me and made the majority of my life so far miserable, but I'm not really angry at him for that. I'm angry at my mother for making me live with him. He's a bad person, that's ok. I know that, I've accepted it, he can't help it and he certainly had no obligation to love or care for me being as I'm not his kid. But my mother, in seeing all this, still put me in this situation. I couldn't do anything about it, not at the age I was. What's worse, in the beginning before she had realized the extent to which he was a negative influence, she tried to make me feel as if I should feel bad for not liking him. I remember fairly distinctly an incident where we were in a car, with her driving and me and my sister in the back seat. We were driving home, and I asked "Is ____ at home?" This was early on in the marriage, but I already disliked/was afraid of him, so I was asking as a means of figuring out whether or not I had to be prepared to deal with him when we arrived. I don't remember her exact response, but it was something snippy designed to make me feel bad for not liking my new step-father. I don't know how I felt then, but I know that a part of me is very very angry with her for putting me in that situation where I had to live with somebody that hated me so much. Oh, I didn't mention this, but in addition to everything else, my step-father and I are exact complete absolute opposites as far as personality is concerned. The same with my half-brother, his son. Our interests and thought-patterns do not converge at all. So that just added to the list of things that he disliked about me and made me suffer for. All because my mother didn't have the courage to remove me from that toxic man. Since I love her, I'd subverted all that hatred of her over this until only very recently. Even now, I don't really feel it, I just know that it is there and it is very big. So I'm going to call her soon and confront her on this, because I need to get past this.

That's what's going on in my life.

[The Cloud]

I just thought of something else that I may as well post. I have an addiction to free stuff. If something is offered, either explicitly or implicitly, I have to take advantage of it. Normally this isn't a problem, because I do restrain myself enough not to take more than my fair share until it becomes obvious that everybody has had ample opportunity to take advantage of whatever it is. However, since I'm trying to eat more healthy, it is becoming a larger problem. I have supernaturally good self-control in spending money, so I have no problem buying healthy food. But I absolutely cannot refuse food that is offered to or made available to me, which is almost universally something on the list of things that I consider unhealthy. The problem being that such food is being offered/provided to me at a detrimental rate. The amount should be going down soon due to situations too boring to write about, but that doesn't eliminate the fact that this addiction is detrimental.

It's not even what is being offered that I care about, it's the fact that I can't allow myself to refuse something that costs me nothing to take. And once I have it, I cannot allow myself to waste it. Perhaps that is it; I have a very strong aversion to wasting anything, especially food. If I don't take the free stuff, then there is a possibility that it will go to waste, and that would be a waste. I may as well use it, even if only for the purpose of justifying its creation.

I'm not sure, I'm too tired right now from eating a whole bunch of free ribs and chicken, but it bears exploring.

[philm]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

Perhaps I decided that since I feel bad when I fail, I fail because I feel bad. Feeling is what keeps me from winning. That is what I believe my belief is.

Cloud,

You feel bad because you are judging yourself as having "failed" and as a potential "Failure".

Both are not really true.

Unfortunately even winning won't keep you feeling good forever. You have to keep winning. Struggling, even fighting, even defending what you dont want to lose.

: )

[philm]

Cloud,

Compliments, encouragement or giving attention can help those whose esteem is low so they dont take life so seriously.

But wont help those who believe they are superior. That inflates their delusions & future pain.

The best approach imho is to be immune from all that.

take care

[Angela]

The Cloud, I think you're onto something.

Have you noticed that what you are so adamantly opposed to creating in your life is exactly parallel to what your mom created in your kid-self life? She really inconvenienced you with her ambitions, didn't she. And when you objected to what was happening, she snipped at you and made you feel bad for speaking up.

Consider that that was one of those decision-making moments. You decided something about yourself (maybe it was a layer of "I'll never do what mom did" and maybe it is more like "I am ____.")

So in the meanwhile you've found a way to cope, to survive -- adopting this thought that it's okay to hurt people -- to hell with them -- nobody's gonna tell me what to do or how to think. But that's a pretty stressful perspective for you, isn't it? It seems like the way to get what you want, but it bears a hefty price tag for you. It's a survival mechanism, but I don't think it's how you want to live your life; it's not very inspiring as a life purpose, is it?

Before you confront your mom, I think it would be a very great idea for you to do the work on it. Otherwise, I'm afraid you'll only make her defensive and not get the resolution you're looking for -- only more pain.

[The Cloud]

Originally Posted by Angela

So in the meanwhile you've found a way to cope, to survive -- adopting this thought that it's okay to hurt people -- to hell with them -- nobody's gonna tell me what to do or how to think. But that's a pretty stressful perspective for you, isn't it? It seems like the way to get what you want, but it bears a hefty price tag for you. It's a survival mechanism, but I don't think it's how you want to live your life; it's not very inspiring as a life purpose, is it?

It's not that I'm actively seeking to hurt people. I'm just tired of living a life catering to other people's pain. Why is the pain they inflict on themselves because of me more important than the pain I inflict on myself when I don't do what I want to avoid harming them? Why is their pain always more important than my pain? A life based around other people's suffering is no life at all. They harm themselves, I can't stop them, I can't make the choice for them, and so I'm not going to live my life based around their decision to blame me as the source of their suffering. "I am your suffering" comes to mind. I think the reason I'm still angry is because I'm mad at people for making me a scapegoat for their feelings.

If I confront my mother now, it's true I might give her an excuse to feel bad. But it's not my fault. I don't want to be responsible for other's pain and anger anymore. Maybe she has some responsibilities as a mother to help me get past this situation that she has placed me in. I'm not mad at her for what she did. I'm mad at her for not taking responsibility for it. I feel as if it was my fault that I was put in that situation, that I had choices that I didn't have, that I could have done something differently. But that's not true. She's the one that did that, she's the one who created that situation. I guess I just want to be able to feel as if it's not my fault anymore, and maybe that if she takes the burden off my shoulders I won't have to carry it any longer.

"It's my fault." I think that's it. All of this, everything that has gone wrong in my life, it's all my fault. I'm not blaming my mom. It's not a blame-feeling that I get when I think about what she did. I just want her to really recognize that she is the one that did it. Maybe you're right, and I should wait until this is over and through with. But I don't feel that is the right thing to do. I need to talk to her about this. She's my mother, and in this situation I'm still just a small child, her child. And finally, after all these years, I actually need to be cared for.

[The Cloud]

I've been exploring "It's my fault," and it makes sense. I think that what I learned in my childhood, from my mother and probably from other sources, is that other people are not responsible for their actions or emotions. But even as a child, I recognized that SOMEBODY had to be accountable for those actions, that they weren't just random natural disasters.

So, in lieu of other people, I took the responsibility on myself. If something went wrong that I was involved in at all, it was inevitably an error on my part, and was somehow always my responsibility to do something about it. But it wasn't actually my responsibility, as often the problem was caused by somebody else, so I couldn't actually do anything to change those actions. Thus responsibility turned into blame, because I was obviously inadequate to this impossible task of catering to the whims and actions of people that had no personal responsibility.

Other people's positive actions even became a bane to me. Every accomplishment somebody achieved was just another responsibility that I had to live up to, even though it was impossible for me to live up to the culminated accomplishments of humanity. So even other's achievements became a condemnation of myself.

This was and is my life, a life of responsibility without power. Of guilt and blame with no possibility of rectification. I know I'm missing something here, but I feel like a little kid. I just want somebody to take the responsibility away. I don't want it anymore. I want somebody to stand up and say "This is my responsibility, these are my choices, and you have no part of them. They aren't yours anymore." I know that won't work, it's my own perception that is creating this, but I want somebody to take it away from me. I know that desire is key, it's the key to something. I'll make sense of it somehow.

[Angela]

The Cloud, you are collapsing together "it's my responsibility" and "it's my fault" as if they were the same thing. But there's a huge difference.

Fault and blame = no power.

Responsibility = all the power in the world.

[The Cloud]

Originally Posted by Angela

The Cloud, you are collapsing together "it's my responsibility" and "it's my fault" as if they were the same thing. But there's a huge difference.

Fault and blame = no power.

Responsibility = all the power in the world.

That's exactly how I feel.

Responsibility - Power = Blame

My sense of responsibility for other people's actions and feelings, along with my powerlessness over them, leads to me being at fault. I suffered consequences for my mother's marriage, and thus I must have been responsible for the situation. But there was and is nothing I can do about it. So what is holding me to it? What do you think may be holding me to this belief? I'll find out on my own, but I could really use some help right now if you have it to give from your wealth of experience in this department.

[Angela]

What happened happened. It's not your fault; you were a little kid. You were also not responsible -- again, you were a little kid, and what was being asked of you emotionally was beyond the reach of a little kid. Was it someone else's fault -- like your mom's? Like: she should be punished, or apologize to you, before you are willing to be happy, satisfied, or fulfilled? Because if that's the case, then you really do have no power. Your happiness, satisfaction, and fulfillment is completely and utterly out of your hands.

The way I see it, it doesn't matter who was responsible at the time for what happened. You suffered. And The Cloud, here's the thing: as much as you have suffered, you can count on it that everyone else has suffered just as much. That's the past. And here's what YOU are responsible for: What are you going to do with it now? Are you going to choose thoughts about it that feel good, or thoughts that feel bad? The choice is 100% yours, and 0% anyone else's. You have all the power in the world.

These thoughts of "I need someone else to take the burden away from me" -- do you feel good when you think them? I'm guessing probably not, because just because you think you need something from someone does not mean they're going to provide it to you. And all your ability feel good is in the hands of that person. Maybe it feels good in that itchy vindictive vengeful sense, but that's not Real Good Feeling, and you know it.

What if you were to take on thinking thoughts that have you feeling a little better? What if you were to practice being generous with yourself and everybody else. You were a little kid, and you did the best you could. Your mom was not a great mom, and she did the best she could with the resources she had. Who are you to say things shouldn't have happened the way they did? The DID happen the way they did, so all the shoulds in the world aren't going to make a whit of difference. Now you are an adult, and many of the resources you have now are BECAUSE of what you have experienced so far. These experiences have not diminished you; they have made you EXPAND -- you are expanding right now. You have the power to forgive, even if you don't choose to use it right now. That's a pretty big power! If and when you choose to, you could feel good about your relationship with your mom, and your relationship with life, just because you say so -- just because you declare that you are ready to leave the past in the past. No actions, words, or thoughts from anyone else necessary. You can live a life that you're in love with because you say so.

Of course it may take some practice! You've been holding onto your bad feelings for quite some time, so it may take some diligence and commitment to feel good on purpose, to deliberately think thoughts of forgiveness of yourself for being a powerless child, and her for being a mother who didn't live up to your standards of what a mom should be.

It's simple, but I never said it was easy!

One thing it all is is: YOUR CHOICE.

[The Cloud]

How come every answer only leads to more questions? None seem to lead me to a point where there is something I can do, where I can be allowed to finally do something worthwhile for myself. Every time I do something, even if I want it badly, the anger of fighting the whole world for it builds up until I stop wanting it altogether. I'd be willing to fight if I still wanted it, but I just stop caring. And that's all I know how to do. All the choices that I have boil down to either anger or apathy. I cycle between being relatively relaxed but not caring about anything, and being angry but driven toward a desire. I wish I knew another way, I wish I could learn another way, but the way of being driven without anger seems unimaginable to me. I just don't know how to do it.

Sometimes I catch just a glimpse of it, just a fleeting moment of a feeling that nothing can stop me. Not that I can defeat all my enemies, but that enemies do not exist, that I have all the power there is in the world. Power without strain, stress, or effort. But I don't know how to take a hold of this power, I don't know how this feeling is triggered and I don't know what it is that I can't stop fighting.

Everybody says that personal development is hard. I have never once found it to be hard, because it's a battle against nothing. The battle is to figure out what it is I am battling. I'm told not to give up. I swore to Angela that I would not quit. That oath meant nothing because I don't know how to quit, I don't know what it is that I could quit. That's just the problem; I don't know what to quit doing so that I can do the right thing for myself. I don't know what sinkhole I am investing my energy into.

I don't understand how anyone that knows that they're doing something wrong could just quit looking for that wrong. Difficult? The difficult thing, the impossible thing, would be TO quit, to stop looking, to stop caring. The most difficult thing I could do right now is to quit this search and resign myself to life as it is now. How anyone can do that is beyond me. It just boggles my mind how blind people can choose to be, how they can know that they aren't happy and that what they are doing is not making them happy and just turn a blind eye to it.

That's the core of my problem; I feel as if I have to fight the philosophy of every one of these brainless, spineless nimrods just to feel alive. Every single one of them is there to show me how wrong I am, and how meaningless and hopeless my desires are. Every one of them feels like an anchor in my butt, holding me back. I know they aren't, I know that's not how things truly are, but that doesn't change that I don't know how to release this responsibility I feel toward these people to get them to change. I was implicitly taught that other people aren't responsible for their lives, but that I am. My mother wouldn't take responsibility for her sad parody of a marriage to my step-father, my step-father would blame everyone but himself (and usually me) for everything that went wrong, and nobody else was there to teach me any better. I just don't know another way to live.

It's not that it's too hard to change, or that I'm not willing to change. I just don't know how. There are many people on this forum that can explicitly tell me how I could live a life of prosperous responsibility. I may even number amongst them. But I have nobody to really implicitly show me how to live that way. It's one thing to have a blueprint, and another thing entirely to build a house. I guess that I'm just venting my frustration about having to build a house with just a blueprint, while surrounded by people that think I should be satisfied with living in a cave like them. And it doesn't help that, since I refuse to live in a cave, I no longer have a roof over my head and am exposed to the elements.

At least, thanks to everybody here, I know that houses can and are being built. I just wish I knew a bit more about plumbing .