Ending Violence Against Women and Girls

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

I really liked this article. And Powell is running for Congress.

Kevin Powell: Ending Violence Against Women and Girls - Living on The Huffington Post

What do you think?

[Playlife]

I think it's cool.

I have to confess I didn't read the article, only skimmed it, reading it would have made me "react" again and that's not what we want, do we?

I think it's good because it's written by a man. I think it's important to show that there are good, caring men in the world too. It's important for both genders to care about the other gender's wellbeing.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Playlife

I think it's cool.

I have to confess I didn't read the article, only skimmed it, reading it would have made me "react" again and that's not what we want, do we?

I think it's good because it's written by a man. I think it's important to show that there are good, caring men in the world too. It's important for both genders to care about the other gender's wellbeing.

Well, I'd love to hear your honest reaction from reading the whole article.

I remember watching Kevin back when he was on The Real World New York and had a confrontation with a female cast member. I don't find him to be someone who's doing this to be PC or to placate the feminists. His voice comes from a place of experience.

In the article he makes a lot of really good points, in my opinion. I think it's worth a read. He's not bashing men, he's giving them a call to action. He's saying that they have the power to change this cycle of violence.

[Playlife]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

Well, I'd love to hear your honest reaction from reading the whole article.

I remember watching Kevin back when he was on The Real World New York and had a confrontation with a female cast member. I don't find him to be someone who's doing this to be PC or to placate the feminists. His voice comes from a place of experience.

In the article he makes a lot of really good points, in my opinion. I think it's worth a read. He's not bashing men, he's giving them a call to action. He's saying that they have the power to change this cycle of violence.

Well, my reaction really doesn't come from any particular article, this or any other campaigning against violence against female people. It probably comes from myself - seeing myself, as a male, as inferior to the females. Obviously people will tell me that I'm an idiot for thinking this - I am the stronger one. But maybe only physically. Even if I was intellectually stronger, I don't know, better at maths or whatever, then still I wouldn't be as good at ehm, emotional intelligence? Or something. I mean, hell, it's not like women go around and beat and rape and kill men; it's the other way around. And all articles like that remind me that it's me who is going around, beating and raping and killing. I know that the articles don't say me personally, but I don't think any man feels good about himself when reading such article. Whereas I'm sure women nod their heads - they haven't done anything wrong, they aren't the oppressors and someone to avoid on a dark street.

Don't we just all want to be victims?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

I wonder why a man who does not commit violence against women should feel badly about himself when reading such an article?

I don't feel at all that the article is focusing on women as victims, nor is it allowing men to play victim. He's talking about solutions, not pointing fingers so much. He speaks honestly about the fact that violence is a problem, but I don't see how that could be denied.

I'd say that if you feel badly about yourself when reading this article then you have to look at why that is so?

I don't want to be a victim, and even in the face of violence from men I don't consider myself one. But I do think that there is a change to be made. And he's advocating that men, in their power, be the ones to lead the way. I find it inspiring and it actually does more to improve my view of men than to lower it. That's why I find it unusual that it would make you feel badly about yourself. I would rather think it would make you proud.

[Playlife]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

He's talking about solutions, not pointing fingers so much. He speaks honestly about the fact that violence is a problem, but I don't see how that could be denied.

But I do think that there is a change to be made. And he's advocating that men, in their power, be the ones to lead the way. I find it inspiring and it actually does more to improve my view of men than to lower it. That's why I find it unusual that it would make you feel badly about yourself. I would rather think it would make you proud.

No, he doesn't point fingers. But it's clear who has to change, who has done bad.

If you commit a crime, and go to jail, serve your sentence and are released, would you feel better about yourself? You still committed a crime, maybe even killed someone, or whatever. You'll always be a criminal.

When you talk in general terms, like "ending violence against girls and women", then it assumes that the perpetrators of that violence are boys and men.

I can become a good person, but that doesn't mean that I've never been bad.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

In this case it's just the fact that the majority of violence against women and girls is perpetrated by men. It doesn't mean all men are bad or guilty, but it's an indisputable fact. Should we not hold men to any standard in their actions? It is clear who has to change...anyone who commits violence. How else do we end this problem if no one is allowed to talk about it or give a call to action because it might make men feel badly? I believe that you should feel badly if you commit violence against someone. Why else would you stop?

[Playlife]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

I find it inspiring and it actually does more to improve my view of men than to lower it.

This comment bugs me a bit. You said that I shouldn't feel myself bad for being male, but the you say that your view of men is not exactly high.

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

And he's advocating that men, in their power, be the ones to lead the way.

Of course men should lead the way, after all they are the ones who rape. Duh!

But seriously, whichever gender lets or makes the other one lead, is giving his/her power away. Gender violence has two genders in them, and it's essential for both genders to work together. That's why I'm also not so fond of "wo/men's groups". (although, ok, maybe in some ways they can be beneficial. I wouldn't know.)

[Doku]

When he voluntarily turns himself in and serves jail time for his domestic violence, THEN I will listen to him.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Playlife

This comment bugs me a bit. You said that I shouldn't feel myself bad for being male, but the you say that your view of men is not exactly high.

Actually that's not what I said.

Originally Posted by Playlife

Of course men should lead the way, after all they are the ones who rape. Duh!

But seriously, whichever gender lets or makes the other one lead, is giving his/her power away. Gender violence has two genders in them, and it's essential for both genders to work together. That's why I'm also not so fond of "wo/men's groups". (although, ok, maybe in some ways they can be beneficial. I wouldn't know.)

No one is saying we shouldn't work together, but what would you suggest that a woman who is beaten, raped or killed can do to change the man's actions? Honestly. I can refuse to remain in abusive relationships, I can post articles, I can support organizations working to end violence. But in the end men will have to make the decision to stop these behaviors, no?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Doku

When he voluntarily turns himself in and serves jail time for his domestic violence, THEN I will listen to him.

Okay, why is that? What will him going to jail (which itself supports a culture of violence) do to change anything when he's already stopped the behavior and made amends with those he hurt?

[Sanity Panda]

It's a good article.

I couldn't help but constantly think "Violence should be stopped regardless of gender" but there was one or two good specific mentalities such as the "I'm the man of the house"

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Oh, I completely agree that we should work to stop all violence. In the article he even mentions the culture of violence and aggression that men are trained into from an early age. This just isn't the same for women and is probably why the majority of violence -- against both men and women -- is committed by men. In taking a stand and calling for men to take responsibility, I think violence across the board can be lessened. While this specific article is about violence toward women and girls, I feel that Kevin is concerned about anger and violence in total.

[Playlife]

I just won't say anything else any more. Not that I'm angry or anything, just that what I might say would be probably inappropriate.

[Sanity Panda]

When I think of traits such as aggression and violence, I think of the positive counterparts such as courage, braveness and generally not being weak. On the otherhand females are taught to be more elegant, empathetic and all the rest.

These stereotypes are encouraged by both members of society (at least in the past. Perhaps unconsciously today)

A stand needs to be taken by all members, that's for sure. So Yeah I agree with it.

Originally Posted by Playlife

I just won't say anything else any more. Not that I'm angry or anything, just that what I might say would be probably inappropriate.

Go on. For the sake of discussion.

[Playlife]

Originally Posted by Sanity Panda

Go on. For the sake of discussion.

Nah. If someones comes and says what I wanted to say, I'll come and nod to him/her. If that day never comes... well, then it was a stupid idea anyway.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Sanity Panda

When I think of traits such as aggression and violence, I think of the positive counterparts such as courage, braveness and generally not being weak. On the otherhand females are taught to be more elegant, empathetic and all the rest.

True. None of what I am saying is meant to imply that something in men should be squashed. But I am all for encouraging the positives, like you said courage, braveness, strength. I don't think that a man who embraces those as a channel for whatever aggressiveness is innate will turn to violence against women or anyone else.

It's not the men only who need to step up, but I think that much more progress could be made if men were to hold themselves and each other accountable for violence -- in all areas of life. Because I think it starts very early with violence against each other (between boys I mean).

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Playlife

Nah. If someones comes and says what I wanted to say, I'll come and nod to him/her. If that day never comes... well, then it was a stupid idea anyway.

Not fair, now you've just got me too curious. Look, no matter what, no matter how much I may disagree, I am still interested in your opinion. Not that you are required at all of course, but how else do we learn and hone our perceptions unless we are exposed to different viewpoints.

[Playlife]

... read your post.. nothing to say really.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

That's your perogative of course. Talk to you later.

[derrick555]

I agree with playlife a little. Reading posts that talk about men raping women almost makes me feel a little dirty to be a man.

[Angela]

Listen, I got so mad when the author of this article was on Real World and assaulted a woman on the show, and they didn't immediately haul his ass into jail. He was a comedian and sort of made it seem like it was all in good fun, the woman took things too seriously, it wasn't really that bad. I was enraged. It epitomized the marginalization of the powerlessness women feel when a man takes physical control of her body.

And I am so heartened to read that he has transformed his anger and violence into contribution -- that he takes responsibility for the pain he has generated and wants to make a difference both for women who are hurt by men, and for men who are themselves hurt. He could have just half-heartedly done his community service sentence and been done with it, but it sounds like he has really taken on a big life lesson, and is interested in being a positive force in the world.

And this I say to Playlife, because I imagine you will hear something other than what I'm saying (like, men are bad, women are their victims, it's all men's fault, men are better than women, etc.). As a matter of fact, Playlife, I clicked on this thread specifically because I was thinking, "I'll bet this really pushes Playlife's buttons." I was interested to hear your *reaction*, and also to read how Aspiring would react to your reaction. So:

I have not experienced the powerlessness a man feels, because I am not a man. I have felt the feeling of powerless of a woman who has been physically mishandled by men, and that is all I am talking about here. Generally women don't physically overpower men as often, although it does happen, of course. My feeling is that men more often feel a different sort of powerlessness, perhaps of being psychologically or politically "assaulted", or of feeling inferior or "bad" because of their maleness. That a woman has been powerless at the hands a man in no way implies that men are never powerless at the hands of a woman, but this thread is about the former. I am sorry for your pain.

[yossarian]

Ignoring the part that women play in the culture of violence is a bad idea.

Women are taught to reward men who are aggressive and violent. They are taught to stay with those men and to try and change those men. They are taught that it is better to have a strong husband who beats you than a weak one who can't protect you.

Women don't directly perpetrate the violence but they do encourage it constantly and unendingly. They push their boyfriends into getting into fights to defend them, they reward men who will beat up other men and therefore show dominance, and many women are addicted to the emotional high of having a violent partner so they stay with that partner firstly and secondly try to provoke violence in him whenever they are craving an emotional rush.

It's a cultural issue not a male issue. The demonization of men - declaring that men fight the wars, men commit the violence, etc while women are sugar and spice and all things nice is a fabrication that was created to sow discord among the sexes.

Women have always been involved in violence and still are to this day - not as combatants but as cheerleaders. There is nothing that motivates a man more than a female cheerleader. In fact, many men base their entire range of behavior on what impresses women. These men have found that violence and proxies for violence (ie. combative sports) impress women the most.

If all women stood up tomorrow and said, "We will NOT sleep with men who are violent! We refuse!" then violence would stop tomorrow.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by yossarian

If all women stood up tomorrow and said, "We will NOT sleep with men who are violent! We refuse!" then violence would stop tomorrow.

That may be true, yossarian, but it would be an indirect solution -- manipulating people's behavior. More direct, and more responsible, would be if all people stood up tomorrow and declared, "We will NOT perpetrate violence! We refuse!" or even more effective: "We WILL generate freedom! We insist!"

It seems to me that the author is doing a form of that. He's a freedom generator.

[derrick555]

Originally Posted by yossarian

Women are taught to reward men who are aggressive and violent. They are taught to stay with those men and to try and change those men. They are taught that it is better to have a strong husband who beats you than a weak one who can't protect you.

Women don't directly perpetrate the violence but they do encourage it constantly and unendingly. They push their boyfriends into getting into fights to defend them, they reward men who will beat up other men and therefore show dominance, and many women are addicted to the emotional high of having a violent partner so they stay with that partner firstly and secondly try to provoke violence in him whenever they are craving an emotional rush.

Phew....glad I don't have a woman like this.

[Playlife]

I guess it's better when I don't participate in such threads anymore. Bye for now.

[coLLege kid07]

I'm not quite sure of the purpose of the thread..but I do know that everyone has something they can be mad at and not like. It's everywhere, so this is not an abnormal case. =/

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by Angela

That may be true, yossarian, but it would be an indirect solution -- manipulating people's behavior. More direct, and more responsible, would be if all people stood up tomorrow and declared, "We will NOT perpetrate violence! We refuse!" or even more effective: "We WILL generate freedom! We insist!"

It seems to me that the author is doing a form of that. He's a freedom generator.

Saying "we must end violence against women and girls" implies that violence against men is acceptable. Violence against men is far more common than violence against women. Probably something like 10,000X more prevalent.

If you refuse to enact violence while still encouraging others to be violent, you aren't truly non-violent.

Dick Cheney doesn't actually kill Iraqis but he does everything in his power to get other people to do so.

Anyway I just wanted to bring some balance to this thread. When people say, "We must end violence against women!" I want to pipe in and say, "and men!!!" with many exclamation marks. Men suffer at the hands of violence far more than women do.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by yossarian

Men suffer at the hands of violence far more than women do.

I think you're right, yossarian. You'll notice that I worded my last post accordingly. I don't think a call for honoring women while continuing to dishonor men is a call that would have integrity or be effective.

Seeker mentioned that it's a very small percentage of men who commit violence against women, but it's a very large percentage of women who have been on the receiving end of violence from men. The author of the article in the OP, I think, had a specific problem of beating on and being angry at gals, not guys. So it makes sense that his focus would be specifically on that perspective. Being an activist against violence towards females does not imply that it's okay to act violently towards men, any more than activists against the war in Iraq are implying that war in Iran is okay. (Unless maybe that's your focus and you feel slighted -- but it's not the intention, I don't think, of the article's author, and certainly not mine.)

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

No one is saying we shouldn't work together, but what would you suggest that a woman who is beaten, raped or killed can do to change the man's actions?

It's right there:

Originally Posted by "From the linked article

To paraphrase Gandhi, make a conscious decision to be the change we need to see.

If I end the violence within myself, that will be the change I see in the world.

Originally Posted by yossarian

If all women stood up tomorrow and said, "We will NOT sleep with men who are violent! We refuse!" then violence would stop tomorrow.

Agreed. In effect the female is saying, I will not make love to my violence anymore. That would be the change they wish to see in the world.

My reaction to the article is I tightened up inside. I hate one-sided men-are-perps and women-are-victims and the MAN has to change. Both are manifesting the violence. No one wants to see that. Either one can stop it.

Getting to that point of catching yourself in reaction takes a lot of work. But they (other people) don't have to do it or learn it. I do. And my world will change accordingly.