Venting sexual frustrations

[robc]

Mark, how's it going, we kind of hijacked your original thread with our own sideline discussion (which may have helped in it's own way).

Have you made any progress into improving communication with your wife? Has she opened up a bit as to how she's feeling and if there is anything you can do to improve her existing state & well-being.

Just remember, take ownership of the relationship, make it the best it can be from your point of view, stay positive, don't focus on the negatives, always put on a happy face, not just for your kids but for your wife and most importantly you. You smile enough and feel happy enough, that feeling may flow into the people around you.

Let us know how things are going, I'm sure we're all interested in this topic and it's current state.

[kgiuliani]

Pretty sure Mark's out of town on business and not back until the 21st.

Is she taking any prescription drugs? Big libido killers are anti-depressants AND any kind of birth control pills (including stuff like nuvaring). If she's taking either, I could see why she has no sex drive.

A natural remedy to low libido is an herb called Vitex or Chasteberry - it helps stabilize hormones. I take 400 mg a day and it works great for my libido. You can buy it at GNC or any of the Vitamin places.

And as a woman, I know sex begins in the mind and her mind probably isn't on sex while she's playing mommy all day. Maybe some time to herself would help - and maybe some nice couple time just to hang out with you. I know when I was doing the fulltime mom thing, I really never felt sexy. And when my (now ex-)husband came home and started bugging me about sex, it felt like one more damn chore was added to my list of stuff I had to do.

I felt much better (and sexier) when I got out and got a job and talked with real people all day instead of running around picking up after kids all day.

Just my thoughts...Hope this helps!

[fountainAtlas]

Well, I can relate. I was in a long term relationship (3+ years), where the woman just didn't want sex. Ever. I loved her very much, but in the end I realized that to stay with her I would either have to learn to hate sex or hate her. So I decided to dump her. Now this isn't an option for you, but you seem to be a giver.

Now what I am about to say will cause a lot of flames, but I will do my best to come of as respectable as possible.

You are a giver and you should be a taker. You try to please her and it only fires back, which tells me she doesn't appreciate you. Sure taking care of children is difficult but there are plenty of women out there that not only take care of children but also work full time and then cook and clean.

I feel that once she had that child you turned her into a god to which you cannot compete with. You made yourself inadequate in her eyes since you total submitted to her. If she can't respect you as an equal, how can she have sex with you? It seems like you are eternally grateful to her for being a great mother and bearing your child. Though this sounds romantic and great, it is killing your relationship. A relationship is a matter of equals and you had disturbed that balance by giving her more power than she deserves. She has to respect your suffering. The suffering you do at work, everyday, the lack of freedom that many of us drones face. You don’t deserve sex from her, but she should be happy to give it to you. I have more thoughts, I will try to write a little later. But if I were you I would
1) Stop being as nice and tell her that you are tired from work
2) Stop trying to constantly please her
3) Take care of your own needs, maybe not through porn but play some sports until you are too tired for sex
4) Try to stimulate her intellectually and make her feel respected
5) Get her do something besides just taking care of the kids, she needs to feel like she has self worth outside of the children.

-FountainAtlas

[marklang500]

Well, I'm back. There are a LOT of posts going on here that I have read, but rather than respond to each of them, as I am a week behind, I will just try to shotgun my thoughts to cover (perhaps I will be able to keep up from here on out!)

I think it's funny that some of the suggestions contradict each other. For example, "try to help out around the house more so she can be less focused on her work" vs. "stop trying top be a Mr. Niceguy" or "don't belittle her job by doing it for her on top of your work day".

There are a lot of variations on these two themes in all of the responses. Trust me, I've gone down both roads in this journey.

I've played my macho side for a few months. I feel as though that was the worst method. I wasn't mean, or a jerk. I just walked with confidence, so to speak. AFter a few months she broke down saying "I don't even know who you are anymore". She was right. If she wanted to marry one of those guys, she would have. But she married me, and although I am althletic in build and activities, I don't play the jock role. She didn't like that type. SO the macho stuff is gone. To tell you the truth, I'm glad. It wasn't really me anyway. One positive thing it gave me, though, was I found a new confidence. Now I just needed it to remain "in check" to my true personality of a caring, funny, happy guy. In the end, I feel as though I am more myself than ever before. Plus, I am strong and staying in shape.

The other side is, doing all the helping around the house. What I've seen is, all the chores that I do just seem to add to the notion that I am trying to "earn" sex. During our "discussion" last week, I blurted out that "I provide a good life for her" and so on. SHe didn't like that. As hard as I tried to reword it, I couln't "fix" it. I had just added a big ol' "you owe me" to the fight. So I said "Listen. I don't think that way most of the time. Just when I get frustrated, and I need you, and you aren't there for me, I start thinking that way. I know I shouldn't. But it happens."

Now, I was away on business for a week, and had plenty of time to thing this through. What I came up with is this: We men don't really understand why we feel what we feel, or how to describe it. So the best way of describing it that we can come up with ends up sounding like "you owe me sex".

So I will try to word it in a more articulate way. It shouldn't be "Cause and Effect" --- I do this and this and this, and then you have sex with me. There is no good way to spin that. And that includes most of the advice in this thread...whether you like it or not, just about every post here can be distilled down to "I do this and that, then she wants sex". It becomes a payment system, or in some cases a manipulative system, no matter what. So here is how I honestly feel:

"I have given you my entire self. I have given you everything I can give you because I love you. The reasons I love you go way back to when we were dating, and continue through time up to right now. I have given up going out to bars many years ago, I have devoted myself to providing a good life, financially, and emotionally for you and the kids. I try in all aspects to be a good husband and father. I have given you everything that I am. If you ask for anything from me that I haven't given you I will surely give it, and I have. I don't do all of these things because I want sex. I do all these things because I love you. By not having sex, we have painted all of my sacrifices into a payment system for sex. You paint them as payment because sex is the one thing that you refuse to give me freely of yourself. I paint them as payment because I desire sex with you and when I don't get it, I reflect on my actions and attitudes in our relationship in search of the 'why'. You have given me your entire self, except the sex. You don't feel as though you have to give me your body. You are unable to give that because you associate it with losing your self, possibly? You don't want to be a slave. But I am already a slave. How will it affect our relationship when I start taking back the things that I give. You will undoubtedly blame me then for the deterioration of our marriage. It will become my fault. You wish sex wasn't such an inportant peice to me. You think all I love you for is sex. It's not true. If our love was a jigsaw puzzle, there is only one piece missing. It is difficult to not focus on that piece when it is missing from a beautiful picture. Give yourself freely to me, completely. I will not abuse you. Fall into it. Give yourself up to me, as I have given myself up to you, and as I will continue to give myself up to you. How long can I continue to do so? My love for you, for our children, and for our lives will keep me captive, tormented. I know you sacrifice all that you have as well, except the sex. All of your sacrifices have become payment for you to justify your holding back sex. You, too, will go above and beyond your sacrifices. I go above and beyond to earn sex, you go above and beyond to earn no-sex. You exhaust yourself and put blinders on to sex. It is last on your priority list.

All in all, we are fighting over control of the last peice of the puzzle. You have given yourself completely in all other regards, and so have I. Why do we fight over control of this last thing. Sex on demand (my demand) would be purely my control. Refusing sex (on your part) is purely your control. How can it possibly work? All control must be given to each other. I will give you time off from sex when you need it, and you will give me sex when I need it. That makes it work.

The only discussion left is, how much time off do you need from me vs. how much sex I need from you. If we can understand each other in this regard, perhaps we can find the intersect point and become sexually compatible again.

----------

OK, now that I'm done with all that, I have to say that when I returned from my trip, I was met with a great evening of dinner and a movie that ended very nicely, if you know what I mean! Maybe our discussion last week sank in while I was gone, and she is willing to try. I will try to balance my needs with her need for "time off". If her need for time off takes over again, though, I will probably draw from my text above in our next discussion. For now, though, I'm gonna let a sleeping dog lie.

Women, give yourself to your men. Men, give your women time off. Solution?

[wolfgang]

you should re-write your "text" and every time you write "sex" replace it with "make love". Too much of this is about something physical that is nothing but a roll in the hay without love. You still are thinking of some sort of balance sheet - a power struggle to get something. If it was about making love, there wouldn't be that power struggle, there wouldn't be a feeling of "getting sex" because you would know intimately at a deep emotional level what's going on with your wife (which is a door way to making love) just my reaction and 2 cents, again.

[marklang500]

Yes, I suppose. But semantics is not the problem. Everything I do is because of love.

As far as the balance sheet goes, you are right. But the balance sheet only exists because of the lack of making love. It goes away when sex becomes freely given. If requirements are needed, there will always be a balance sheet. Requirements: Clean house, enough energy, right time of the month, no arguments within the last 48 hours, be a sweetheart, split the parenting, minimize agrivations, flirt, be in the mood to reciprocate flirt, etc. etc.....

Analogy:
If you had unlimited amounts of money, would you care very much about the balance sheet? You might be a bit interested, but it wouldn't really be a problem.
Now, if you were running into debt troubles, You better start taking a good look at the balance sheet so you can get it under control.

I don't want to be thinking like a balance sheet. I don't want to be thinking about this at all really. I just want it to work! I agree, all of the other stuff shouldn't be counted as payment. That's just what naturally happens when one thing is left out. Let's pick on a different piece of the puzzle. If we had sex on a regular basis, and I only did dishes once every couple of months, she might feel inclined to say something like, "for all I do around here would it hurt you to do the dishes once in a while?" See? A lack of giving in one department leads the jilted to stack thier contributions into balance sheet to get from thier spouse the thing that is missing. It isn't right. But it is a natural thing to do. It would be better to say, "will you please do the dishes tonight, I'm beat." A loving husband says, "Sure honey. You go relax." A bad thing would be to reply "after the day I had at work, now you want me to do the dishes too? Fine (grumble grumble)"

Likewise, I might say, I really need sex tonight, you have been so attractive to me that I can't stand it!" A loving wife would say, "Sure honey. Let me go slip into the tub and I'll meet you in an hour". A bad thing would be to reply "after the day I had with the kids and the housework, now you want me to lay down for you? Fine (bothered) Come on."

Now the "sure honey, you go relax" line is meant to do 2 things. Firstly, it says "Yes, I will do the dishes so you can relax". Secondly, it tries very hard to not let her feel any guilt about her request. She can get the full benefit of the relaxing when I don't let her think I am bothered by doing the dishes. That's importmant. It's one thing to do the dishes. But it's a whole other level when she feels OK about even asking.

The only way the balance sheet goes away, whether you call it sex or making love, is if it is in good supply, balanced with a good supply of "time off" if time off is one of her needs.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by marklang500

Requirements: Clean house, enough energy, right time of the month, no arguments within the last 48 hours, be a sweetheart, split the parenting, minimize agrivations, flirt, be in the mood to reciprocate flirt, etc. etc.....

I'm just wondering, are these things that she has told you are requirements? Or are you guessing? Have you actually asked her why she isn't up for sex very often? I'm sorry if I missed it, but it doesn't seem we've heard the actual reason she's not going for it. Just everyone's opinions of possibilities.

[marklang500]

Basically it goes like this:

"Is it so wrong that I don't want to have sex as much as you do? Why do I have to figure out why? I just don't! 3 times a month is great! You act like you never get any."

One time during our discussions on this topic last year (we go through this about once a year) she said "fine. Get a calander and we'll plan it"

I should have taken her up on it. But the sentiment was so dark that I couldn't. I would have if she said "I know what we can do. We'll each mark up a calandar and then compare them to find a common ground. I really do want to know what you think a good sex life schedule is like."

See the difference? It's all about WANTING not just sex, but peace, communication, understanding, and love. The mere fact that when I want to discuss this she turns it into an argument just shows how she would rather give up those things for the sake of not giving up her power over sex.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by marklang500

So here is how I honestly feel:

"I have given you my entire self. I have given you everything I can give you because I love you. The reasons I love you go way back to when we were dating, and continue through time up to right now. I have given up going out to bars many years ago, I have devoted myself to providing a good life, financially, and emotionally for you and the kids. I try in all aspects to be a good husband and father. I have given you everything that I am. If you ask for anything from me that I haven't given you I will surely give it, and I have. I don't do all of these things because I want sex. I do all these things because I love you. By not having sex, we have painted all of my sacrifices into a payment system for sex. You paint them as payment because sex is the one thing that you refuse to give me freely of yourself. I paint them as payment because I desire sex with you and when I don't get it, I reflect on my actions and attitudes in our relationship in search of the 'why'. You have given me your entire self, except the sex. You don't feel as though you have to give me your body. You are unable to give that because you associate it with losing your self, possibly? You don't want to be a slave. But I am already a slave. How will it affect our relationship when I start taking back the things that I give. You will undoubtedly blame me then for the deterioration of our marriage. It will become my fault. You wish sex wasn't such an inportant peice to me. You think all I love you for is sex. It's not true. If our love was a jigsaw puzzle, there is only one piece missing. It is difficult to not focus on that piece when it is missing from a beautiful picture. Give yourself freely to me, completely. I will not abuse you. Fall into it. Give yourself up to me, as I have given myself up to you, and as I will continue to give myself up to you. How long can I continue to do so? My love for you, for our children, and for our lives will keep me captive, tormented. I know you sacrifice all that you have as well, except the sex. All of your sacrifices have become payment for you to justify your holding back sex. You, too, will go above and beyond your sacrifices. I go above and beyond to earn sex, you go above and beyond to earn no-sex. You exhaust yourself and put blinders on to sex. It is last on your priority list.

All in all, we are fighting over control of the last peice of the puzzle. You have given yourself completely in all other regards, and so have I. Why do we fight over control of this last thing. Sex on demand (my demand) would be purely my control. Refusing sex (on your part) is purely your control. How can it possibly work? All control must be given to each other. I will give you time off from sex when you need it, and you will give me sex when I need it. That makes it work.

The only discussion left is, how much time off do you need from me vs. how much sex I need from you. If we can understand each other in this regard, perhaps we can find the intersect point and become sexually compatible
Women, give yourself to your men. Men, give your women time off. Solution?

Mark, it makes more sense now. Your feelings, even if you never articulate them to your wife, are chock-full of "here's what you are, think, feel, and do. I know your priorities, and can predict your reactions, without checking in with you more than perfunctorily. " and "Here's the solution I have found, and that's that."

What I'm not hearing in your declaration is anything along the lines of: "Darling wife, I really want to understand you the way you want to be understood. I'd like our marriage to be deeply connected and for our communication to be extraordinarily open. Would you like that, too? What else? What can I do to make that happen? What are you willing to do to make that happen? What's important to you today, what's your focus, what do you desire?"

In other words, there doesn't seem to be any generous listening going on. You can generate it unilaterally, if you want to.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

I see. That must be so hard for you. I'm a woman, but if I got that same answer from my bf I'd probably just feel really rejected.

It just sounds like there is some reason there that if she would actually let it out could be solved in one way or another. From everything you have posted it looks like either she doesn't know herself what the reason is or she can't bring herself to share it.

I'm sorry that I don't have the answer because I really feel your pain.

Maybe you could get her to talk about it more using non-violent communication (that's the name, no implication about your current communication style!). It seems to work really well. If Angela's anywhere around, she's really good at "scripts." I can direct you to a post in another thread:

Relationship advice needed - difficult spouse interactions
Relationship advice needed - difficult spouse interactions

Does that give you a glimpse into another way to go into the conversation? Without all of the assumptions about what she's going to say or do, without trying to get your point across so much?

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by marklang500

Yes, I suppose. But semantics is not the problem. Everything I do is because of love.

Except your wife doesn't think so and that might not be just your wife. I have no idea. Somehow the things you do is now part of this power struggle and it's probably both of you playing some sort of part in making it that way.

Analogy:
If you had unlimited amounts of money, would you care very much about the balance sheet? You might be a bit interested, but it wouldn't really be a problem.
Now, if you were running into debt troubles, You better start taking a good look at the balance sheet so you can get it under control.
...
The only way the balance sheet goes away, whether you call it sex or making love, is if it is in good supply, balanced with a good supply of "time off" if time off is one of her needs.

You stumped me with that analogy.

Just suggesting a focus on making love, instead of "not getting enough sex" might turn it around. I think there is a big difference between sex and love making. They aren't just semantics. Its part of the thinking. It might be what she picks up on, that you are after sex - not after love making. And all the ways to respond without disrespect is part of making love. The best sex I've had was when I wasn't asking for my needs to be met or feeling like I did enough house work and am owed something.

She can control you as long as you are needing it so bad as to express lack of sex. Maybe if you stopped insisting and bringing up "why not sex tonight?" she'd start getting back into it. instead of the next night after you two do it and trying to make it happen again, just do loving things and tell her how you loved last night and make her remember that she had fun but don't try to go all sexual on her. I don't know - just my perspective, I'm certainly no sex therapist.

[NightSpirit]

There seems to be a lot of fear in your posts about sex. It's almost like your desires are ruling you, you are so attracted to your wife that you can't stand it and you are accepting that as being part of what is normal for a man.

It does not have to be this way. I am not saying you are at risk for becoming a sex addict but there is a point that a normal desire for sex becomes like an addiction. That point would be when the amount of sex you are having (or not having) begins to have the power to define you or to control your happiness or peace.

I am a woman but I do understand. Sexual incompatibility and the lack of sex within relationships happens to both men and women all along the scale of determining what is enough sex, especially as women hit their peak in their late 30's or early 40's and also as men begin to slow down as they age.

You may not feel you are burning with desire or that the desire to have more sex is controlling you but your wife seems to think that. It is also kind of obvious from your previous posts. A lot of the reasons you give for wanting more sex are not about improving or affirming your relationship with your wife but purely about the "commodity" of sex, about getting it now because you can't later because of trips or her period. Even everything in your letter past "I do what I do because I love you." talks about the "commodity or exchange of what you give her for more sex. You still see her as withholding something to hurt you and that's not what's she's doing.

Your wife is trying to tell you she wants more of a spiritual type of relationship with you, like soul mates, where being with her, talking to her, loving her, becomes the real reward and the sex is merely an addition to that. More sex does not mean more love.

A friend once told me that she was glad her marriage of two decades was finally over, even though her husband was a good provider, a hardworking faithful man and a great father to their sons. Someone snatched him up soon after their marriage ended and she found a man that she felt loved her and not her sex. She said during her first marriage, the whole time they were together that her husband kept up with her cycles, as you do your wife's, so he could schedule their sex and so he wouldn't make the mistake of taking her on vacation at the wrong time. A beautiful, intelligent woman in a beautiful place, time alone relaxing with her, meant nothing to him if he couldn't also have sex.

This is a serious problem and I have never seen a couple who begins to feel this way about each other that didn't end up divorcing, usually after the kids are grown. I think your only hope of making things better is convincing your wife that you love her if you never have sex again. Ask your self why is getting the sex 3 more times a month worth this much to you or worth arguing about. Building a relationship where the sex flows naturally from her love will take more than a calendar.

You can have peace within yourself whether you are having a lot of sex or not by concentrating on the control of your own spirit with acceptance or detachment techniques or by raising your own inner motivations. This article by Steve is a good place to get the general idea. Levels of Consciousness.

When you get to the place where you are free from "needing" the sex, then your wife may start to see having sex with you as more than providing for your "needs". Feeling that way turns most all women off, even if they still give it up to have peace.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Okay, sorry about the sorta-off-topic question, but what's with all the scheduling around her "cycle" (OP and in the last post by NS)?

[Angela]

It's my favorite time.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Yeah, right around then is when I'm ready to go the most (hormonally? physically? I guess), and it's really no big deal.

That could be once more a month for you guys unless she doesn't like to do it then.

[marklang500]

What I'm not hearing in your declaration is anything along the lines of: "Darling wife, I really want to understand you the way you want to be understood. I'd like our marriage to be deeply connected and for our communication to be extraordinarily open. Would you like that, too? What else? What can I do to make that happen? What are you willing to do to make that happen? What's important to you today, what's your focus, what do you desire?"

In other words, there doesn't seem to be any generous listening going on.

You may be right about that. But like the script that {aspiring_to_clarity} gave me, she tends to get defensive when we talk about this. Sometimes she says "I just can't talk about this anymore"

I can listen. She just doesn't want to talk. I guess at this point, I can see why. Uhhhg.

Well, like I said. Saturday night was great, and now it is up to me to stop pressuring, give her space, break the "payment system" cycle, and listen.

But you know what? I've done all that. I always end up here. I do all of that all the time. Next thing you know, 2 weeks will go by where I lie in bed wondering how at the end of such a wonderful evening she just rolls over and says good-night. Then I'm left either "hitting" on her, or getting a sleepless night wondering why she doesn't feel attracted to me. Wondering why she, unlike me, hasn't been waiting anxiously for the kids to be asleep so we can have at each other. That's why I'm so "here's the solution and that's that" about it. I get your point, though.

Anyway, like I said, we're on an apparent upturn. I won't plan on sex for a few days, but I'll listen and keep up with my share of the workload, without going overboard, and just try to "be with her". Listen.

[Angela]

It sounds like you dearly love your wife and want things to work out well for both of you. That's really wonderful.

I just have one more suggestion (for now, anyway! ) and that is when you're listening to her, practice letting go of what you know about her, your resignation or sense of defeat about the situation. You may not realize how your resignation is showing up in your conversations with her, and you might find it creates a whole 'nuther vibe if you generate possible satisfaction and fulfillment for everyone, in spite of your past disappointments.

Best wishes to you, and I acknowledge you for being committed to having a loving relationship.

[tinkerbell]

Originally Posted by frajilthunder

You must have either small watermelons or large feti in your neck of the woods.

My son was 10 lbs 5ounces! lol So he was a small watermelon!

sorry I couldn't resist.

[marklang500]

Thanks Angela. Listen, I do try to paint the real picture for you guys. Of course, It's always nice to paint myself more right than I probably am (guilty). Since I'm the one present, you know. I'm to the point where I am feeling bad for even airing all of this (even though it is anonymous). She is a great woman, and I'm lucky to have her.

I have to admit it is hard for me to separate intimacy from sex when my libido is so strong. She'll have to leave me before I cheat though. Sorry ladies!

(it's a joke!)

[Angela]

I attended a seminar once on intimacy, and all the guys who showed up thought they were at a sex seminar. Hopefully a hands-on workshop, I think.

[marklang500]

Yeah, that would be me. Wait a minute, though, I'm not looking to open a new can of worms, but sould I feel guilty for that? Hmmm. Can you say "paradigm shift" ?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Intimacy and sex are two totally different things which can exist either in the presence or the absence of the other.

[Angela]

No, there's no use in feeling guilty about it -- there's a lot of media and society control, I think, that wants to program into us the idea that sex and intimacy are one and the same.

I think just recognizing that there two different things can make a big difference in relationships, for both men and women. Each person gets caught up in thinking her or his partner thinks about sex and and intimacy the same way, and we get all confused and angry because we think we're talking from the same perspective, but we're not.

[Rose of Cairo]

Mark, I'm sorry I haven't read through all of the replies here. Nevertheless, I'll just tell you my impression about your posts.

I keep getting from you the vibe that you think she owes it to you. No matter how much you claim it's not the case, what I feel when I read your posts is something along the line "I give you the money, so I deserve sex". That's very unpleasant. And if I feel it, she does, too. Which woman would find such an underlying assumption arousing, now honestly? Basically, this is prostitution. Is that how you want to treat your wife?

I also keep getting the feeling that you think sex is something that women do to please their husbands. Maybe that's not what you're saying, but things like this one imply it:

Originally Posted by marklang500

Likewise, I might say, I really need sex tonight, you have been so attractive to me that I can't stand it!" A loving wife would say, "Sure honey. Let me go slip into the tub and I'll meet you in an hour".

So I'm asking myself, how good is the sex you two have?? Because a woman who has incredible sex doesn't need to give it to her husband when he needs it, for the sake of peace, as you're suggesting women should do!

I can't get too graphic here unfortunately, but: does she have an orgasm when you have sex in the first place? And when she does, how much of it is caused by you, and how much by herself? How much oral sex do you have and how much do you touch her in other places than directly on her mouth/boobs/genitals? I'm very sorry if my assumption is wrong, but from the sound of it, the impression I get is more like "a little foreplay, penetration, maybe switching position, orgasm, over". Maybe, instead of focusing on getting what you want, you could focus on pleasing her in as many ways as possible, without thinking about yourself?

In my eyes you come across as focused only on not getting enough. You're calculating, demanding, and worried all the time about what you don't "get". But how much do you give? Remember "give what you want to have" How often do you give her an orgasm just for fun, for free, without having one yourself? Or a massage? How often do you do something for her without expecting anything in return?

Maybe I'm mirroring here because I have recently found out how stingy I'm being in my relationships. Still, even if she doesn't give you anything, begin with giving, you.

What I also noticed is that you want to be lovers - but you're not behaving like a lover. You expect her to be a lover, while not being one yourself. Bringing flowers only on Fridays is not really lover-like! My advice: begin with being a lover yourself in the first place, in your head. It's a matter of mindset. Flirt with her often, not only when you want sex. Bring her flowers on other days than Friday. Write little love notes for her. Get cheesy. Call her just to tell her that you love her. Eat your yogurt from her neck. Give her hugs and long French kisses for no reason at all, then just let her go. Show her that you're crazy about her. To be honest, I'm not even sure you still love her, no matter how much you say you do.

And all of this without asking for sex in any way. If you can't stand the pressure, just watch some porn and masturbate. I do that too when my libido is higher than my boyfriend's. So what?

Oh and about asking for sex: that's the biggest major turn-off ever. Never ask for sex when the woman is not already in horny mood! Neither verbally nor using such not-so-subtle non-verbal hints. I can understand it disgusts her and makes her feel like it's not really about her, but merely about sex. If I'm concentrated on something I'm doing and not currently being in the mood for sex, and my boyfriend bluntly pinches my butt out of the blue, or says "Darling I really need sex tonight" I'd say "Well, jack off then. Btw, the door is over there!" Sex has to happen naturally out of the situation, not because someone asks for it!

One last idea: does she take the pill? I know that for some women (including me), taking the pill is an absolute libido killer. I'm pretty much a sex maniac, but when I take the pill, I don't need it anymore So, maybe there's something to look at here? What's your birth control method?

My 2 cts. Hope it helps in some way! I'm sorry if I came across as harsh, it is certainly not my intention.

[Thomas]

1. The text that you have entered is too long (12200 characters). Please shorten it to 10000 characters long.

[Thomas]

And I didn't save it elsewhere. Oh dear.

[robc]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

So I'm asking myself, how good is the sex you two have?? Because a woman who has incredible sex doesn't need to give it to her husband when he needs it, for the sake of peace, as you're suggesting women should do!

If he's only having sex with his wife possible a couple of times a month, how good could it be. All that pent up frustration and operating under the notion that his wife is giving in and having sex and not because she's as hot for him as he is for her, how good could it be?

The more sex you have, the better you get at it. If he isn't having regular sex with his wife, how good could it be? For Mark or anyone else to be a pro at having sex (and I'm not saying he isn't, this is for the sake of the discussion), he has to be having regular sex. I'm assuming he isn't looking for sex outside of the marriage so doesn't that void the argument of whether or not he loves his wife, if he didn't love his wife, he could simply have started getting his needs fulfilled elsewhere but he hasn't. The bulk of this discussion is that he loves his wife and he wants that last piece of the puzzle, to be physically intimate with the wife that he loves - nothing wrong with that at all.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by robc

The bulk of this discussion is that he loves his wife and he wants that last piece of the puzzle, to be physically intimate with the wife that he loves - nothing wrong with that at all.

Who said there is something wrong with that? Certainly not me. I can understand him very well, I would feel frustrated too in his shoes. I really feel for him. (sorry for talking about you in the third person, Mark)

Originally Posted by robc

I'm assuming he isn't looking for sex outside of the marriage so doesn't that void the argument of whether or not he loves his wife, if he didn't love his wife, he could simply have started getting his needs fulfilled elsewhere but he hasn't.

I know he loves his wife. The point is, I know it, but I don't feel it. If I don't feel it, maybe she doesn't either? Not saying he's lying. Maybe he's just not expressing it in a way that I get. Maybe he's not expressing it in a way that his wife gets, either?

Originally Posted by robc

If he's only having sex with his wife possible a couple of times a month, how good could it be. All that pent up frustration and operating under the notion that his wife is giving in and having sex and not because she's as hot for him as he is for her, how good could it be?

Oddly enough, he says it IS good.

I'm also not saying it is his fault if it's not good. It takes two to make love, and she's just as responsible for it than he is.

My point was, Mark says things like these

Originally Posted by marklang500

Women, give yourself to your men. Men, give your women time off. Solution?

Originally Posted by marklang500

Likewise, I might say, I really need sex tonight, you have been so attractive to me that I can't stand it!" A loving wife would say, "Sure honey. Let me go slip into the tub and I'll meet you in an hour".

He's talking as if sex was some kind of service or favor from wives to their husbands, and not something they're crazy about themselves. He seems to believe deep down that women cannot really enjoy sex. And I'm asking myself why. Isn't that a totally disempowering belief? How to create a fulfilling sex life with your wife, while being convinced that she cannot really have fun with it?

[frajilthunder]

Originally Posted by tinkerbell

My son was 10 lbs 5ounces! lol So he was a small watermelon!

sorry I couldn't resist.

Bless your heart (and your opening).

[marklang500]

I keep getting from you the vibe that you think she owes it to you. No matter how much you claim it's not the case, what I feel when I read your posts is something along the line "I give you the money, so I deserve sex". That's very unpleasant. And if I feel it, she does, too. Which woman would find such an underlying assumption arousing, now honestly? Basically, this is prostitution. Is that how you want to treat your wife?

I agree with you--It isn't good. But you missed my point. I DON'T think this way, until I get a week or so out. It builds into that mindset. And it builds in HER mindset, too. We are both guilty. Basically, as long as we are having sex, the "earning" thing doesn't exist. WHat happens though is a drought allows these built up frustrations to fester and THEN I start rationalizing...Rationalizing just isn't good for the mood!

So I agree with you, but you can't the the effect the cause. Thanks for your post---I'm not offended -- if the truth hurts, throw it out there anyway!

Likewise, I might say, I really need sex tonight, you have been so attractive to me that I can't stand it!" A loving wife would say, "Sure honey. Let me go slip into the tub and I'll meet you in an hour".

My point on this one is that HOPEFULLY she would WANT to be this way. I don't want her to pretend anything. I just know that if my waife said "I need you tonight" I would say "Ok honey, let me hop in the shower and I'll meet you in the bedroom". I wouldn't be feigning interest. I would be HONESTLY INTERESTED! I just want that in return from her! Instead of rolling her eyes. WHy can a woman initiate sex and the man be all "Oh yeah, baby" to keep the mood going, but when the man initiate sex the woman is all caught off-guard, and is all "Uh, what are you doing?" That in itself doesn't help the mood, and actually leads me to think, "OK do I really want sex if she's just giving in?"

He's talking as if sex was some kind of service or favor from wives to their husbands, and not something they're crazy about themselves. He seems to believe deep down that women cannot really enjoy sex. And I'm asking myself why. Isn't that a totally disempowering belief? How to create a fulfilling sex life with your wife, while being convinced that she cannot really have fun with it?

When you say "not something they're crazy about themselves" what does it mean for them to be "crazy about it". AGain, this isn't really my belief, but just my situation. You're right, it isn't the way of thinking. I know she CAN have fun with it. I just don't know why she doesn't want to have fun with it more often, and I don't know why she freaks out when I want to have fun with it before she's "ready again" to have fun with it.

Does that make sense?