Can Women Lead Men?

[Neblasian]

Good day,

Some time ago me and my friend was discussing why so many males have fallen out from important roles from our society. For instance at my former University females outnumber men by 3 to 1. Women are now dominating in sciences and still in the arts. There are more female teachers than male. Institutions like Toastmasters are dominated by females. However, when you pass the "block" in my district, what do I see? Men, using drugs, gambling, drinking alchohol. The men seem to don't care or have a drive to succeed. The women are busy running the country (Barbados). However, when you dive further into the statistics most of these men are raised by their mothers. And it is most likely most of their teachers were women. When I looked at my life, I was raised by my father and the teachers that mostly influence me are men. So I came to one conclusion men needs a men to lead. Do some of you guys agree with me or am I being a male chauvinist pig.


Regards

[JSB]

Originally Posted by Neblasian

So I came to one conclusion men needs a men to lead.

Yeah, boys need strong positive male role models (preferably their father) as part of their lives when they are growing up.

Boys raised only by women, no matter how wonderful, will face extra challenges growing up into healthy, capable men.

This is a little different than saying they need men to lead them; I think they need men to inspire them.

[robc]

Originally Posted by Neblasian

Good day,

Some time ago me and my friend was discussing why so many males have fallen out from important roles from our society. For instance at my former University females outnumber men by 3 to 1. Women are now dominating in sciences and still in the arts. There are more female teachers than male. Institutions like Toastmasters are dominated by females. However, when you pass the "block" in my district, what do I see? Men, using drugs, gambling, drinking alchohol. The men seem to don't care or have a drive to succeed. The women are busy running the country (Barbados). However, when you dive further into the statistics most of these men are raised by their mothers. And it is most likely most of their teachers were women. When I looked at my life, I was raised by my father and the teachers that mostly influence me are men. So I came to one conclusion men needs a men to lead. Do some of you guys agree with me or am I being a male chauvinist pig.


Regards

You're raising an important point and making an observation based on the evidence available to you.

I think that many men might be losing their role in society and in relationships, they're not leading anymore and this forces women to pick up the slack and it's unfamiliar territory for men consciously and subconsciously - whether people want to admit it or not.

No one says that men have to be a$$ holes and lead by force or anger or intimidation either, I think that the males examples in society that are doing just that feel that they don't have any other way to be a leader except by creating fear in others.

With the lack of positive male role models what do men do to learn these successful leadership traits?

[Neblasian]

Hi,

I think that many men might be losing their role in society and in relationships, they're not leading anymore and this forces women to pick up the slack and it's unfamiliar territory for men consciously and subconsciously - whether people want to admit it or not.

It all starts with the family. In my country women have more rights regarding children than men. For instance if a couple breaks up, it is more likely that the court will let the woman keeps the children. I have some male friends who are in a fight just to see their sons on weekends.

Boys raised only by women, no matter how wonderful, will face extra challenges growing up into healthy, capable men.

It is very sad isn't it. Most of the men I know who were raised only by their have some serious insecurity issues.


There are two types of common male role models I see in my community. Some are soap opera types obsessed with their relationships or the gangsta rapper types obsessed with their d#cks. Where are the Hannibals from the A-team who wants to save the world? This is very distressing.


Regards

[ivorytickler]

They can but I don't think men like it.

[Daffy Duck]

Are you sure that women are dominating in sciences? That goes against every college statistic I've ever been told. Men become Engineers. Women become English majors.

[ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

Are you sure that women are dominating in sciences? That goes against every college statistic I've ever been told. Men become Engineers. Women become English majors.

Female chemical engineer here, speak for yourself. 50% of my graduating class was women and that was more years ago than I'll admit to . That's just chem e's though. There are more men in the other engineering disciplines.

However, women do dominate in one sense. Because we are going into male fields, the tendency is that only the top women go into those fields. You're reaching farther down the IQ curve with men. So, on average, the women who do go into the sciences and engineering are better than the men.

I had a prof who gave an exam at the beginning of every year to just see who was better and he swore in 20 years he'd never had the men win.

I graduated at the top of my chemical engineering class. Barely beating out the woman who took the number two slot. The two of us were comparable to each other but head and shoulders above the next guy.

[Mr_A]

Woman can lead men if her nature is core masculine and the man’s nature is core feminine. Gender does not determine if you are core masculine or core feminie but ordinarily men are core masculine and woman are core feminie.
Men are not playing their roles so women are forced/taught to pickup the slack and take care of themselves.
Men see they are no longer needed to protect the female so they go into distraction and addiction and start using drugs, gambling, and drinking alcohol to fill in the void. No need to protect the cave from lion, tigers, and bears anymore.
Real men are an endangered species.

[bellemeadows]

Originally Posted by Mr_A

Woman can lead men if her nature is core masculine and the man’s nature is core feminine. Gender does not determine if you are core masculine or core feminie but ordinarily men are core masculine and woman are core feminie.
Men are not playing their roles so women are forced/taught to pickup the slack and take care of themselves.
Men see they are no longer needed to protect the female so they go into distraction and addiction and start using drugs, gambling, and drinking alcohol to fill in the void. No need to protect the cave from lion, tigers, and bears anymore.
Real men are an endangered species.

Wowser, women with core masculine? I beg to differ.

I work in the real world, as a project manager. I don't really care if I work with other PMs who are men or women. What I do care about is people who cannot do the work because of an entitlement mentality. Some of the men who wash out, come into this field with some kind of odd entitlement mentality.

What I have found as a woman leading teams of mixed men and women is that being a woman has some advantages and basically no disadvantages. I don't have to compete, because I am very good at what I do. I don't have to harass or intimidate or manage in a paternalistic manner, because it is totally unnecessary with engaged, contributing team members. I can be a cheer leader at time. I can laugh, and joke and inspire my team to have fun with what they are doing. I can encourage the playful, fun aspect of the work group, as I facilitate the process of getting a high-quality job completed on time.

This kind of leadership can be highly-effective. If you read the data on leadership, the kind of male, hard-headed, get it done driving is not necessarily effective.

What is the number one indicator of a high-producing team? A combination of feeling cared about by their boss and coworkers, plus trust and engagement (having the skills to do it is a given). The trust allows the team to sometimes expose their weak positions, which is good, because as a team, we can shore up those spots and make it work. The engagement is the passion. The being cared about is the number one indicator that someone will stay in their position and be a high-producer.

How many men nurture and mentor their team members? How many men create a work environment that is trustful, and yet highly energized? Men can do this as easily as women, but too often they don't.

I love men, and always want to see people succeed. But I cut my teeth on that old paternalistic, manly management style. For most people it is cold.

People are not machines. They need caring community, whether at work or at play. I think that men need to relook at what it means to be male in our society. I know many, many wonderful men. They are the kind of men who are kind and caring to everyone around them. Their families, their team members, etc., etc. I want the best for men as well as women in this world. From my perspective, the working world is a much better place because women are now a part of leading it.

Just some thoughts from Belle,

[Neblasian]

Belle,

You made a very valid point. Leadership still requires alot of sensitivity. But how can you help the men that completely drops out from society. I feel these men were hugged too much by their mothers they become immune to it. I think what they needs is a B!#CH SLAP. I cannot go on my block with that mentality I will probally be robbed. The guys you were refering too are probally competent secure men, these guys I am talking about are severely insecure.

Real men are an endangered species.

Very true Mr._A. The thing is, alot of guys have no idea what a real man is.



Regards

[Daffy Duck]

Originally Posted by ivorytickler

Female chemical engineer here, speak for yourself.

I was speaking in general terms, of course. Engineers are more commonly men.

Because we are going into male fields, the tendency is that only the top women go into those fields.

So you agree there are more men in engineering, but that the women in the field are better on average. Gotcha. Sounds true to me (though I've never read any studies on this).

Originally Posted by Mr_A

Real men are an endangered species.

Depends on your definition. I could easily say that real women are an endangered species, but what do I mean by that? Are we just believing in stereotypical gender roles?

I think it is most accurate to say that both men and women usually don't live up to their potential. But then I must follow up and ask myself, who sets the bar? Who is the judge for this?

[Playlife]

Originally Posted by Neblasian

You made a very valid point. Leadership still requires alot of sensitivity. But how can you help the men that completely drops out from society. I feel these men were hugged too much by their mothers they become immune to it. I think what they needs is a B!#CH SLAP.

I'm not sure about it. I would think that single mothers become more hardened, due to their hardships, and perhaps are hard on their sons to ensure that they work hard so that their lives won't be as bad..

[Daffy Duck]

It depends on a lot of factors. My brothers and I had the same mother & father, but we all turned out a bit different.

The ideal situation is a loving family with both a mother and father. When one parent is missing, the child will generally suffer.

[Mr_A]

Originally Posted by bellemeadows
Wowser, women with core masculine? I beg to differ.

My bad bellemeadows i was thinking about couples and relationships and partners having that masculine and feminie polarity which creates passion. Your right, great leadership requires both mascline and feminie traits.

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck
Depends on your definition. I could easily say that real women are an endangered species, but what do I mean by that? Are we just believing in stereotypical gender roles?

I think it is most accurate to say that both men and women usually don't live up to their potential. But then I must follow up and ask myself, who sets the bar? Who is the judge for this?

I was taking about core masculine men. Core masculine men not honouring their masculinity
A health person has both feminie and masculine traits but they know what their core is and they work and from their core.

Masculinity Traits
-Protecting
-Conquering
-Breaking through
-Deciding
-Controlling
-Logical
-Calculated
-Systematic
-Director
-Owner
-Resolve
-Grounded
-A Mountain

Femineity Traits
-Feeling
-Connecting
-Expressing
-Flow
-Playfulness
-Faith
-Radiating
-Wild
-Out of control
-Intuitive
-Crazy sexiness
-Testing
-Dreaming
-Imagination
-The Sky
-A Storm

[bellemeadows]

Originally Posted by Neblasian

Belle,

You made a very valid point. Leadership still requires alot of sensitivity. But how can you help the men that completely drops out from society. I feel these men were hugged too much by their mothers they become immune to it. I think what they needs is a B!#CH SLAP. I cannot go on my block with that mentality I will probally be robbed. The guys you were refering too are probally competent secure men, these guys I am talking about are severely insecure.


Very true Mr._A. The thing is, alot of guys have no idea what a real man is.



Regards

You know, I kind of agree. It seems like a lot of men are spoiled rotten. But it also seems to me that it isn't only the women who spoil the men. We could use more role models of mature, caring men (and women as well).

I work with horses, and there are vast differences between stallions and mares. The old beliefs about stallions reflected our old beliefs about maleness, they are in total control of the herd, and they manage it. That has been found not to be true. Stallions protect the herd from other stallions. Generally the lead mare calls the shots, even with the stallion. That is why she is called the lead mare, the alpha mare, she leads the herd. Also, if a stallion is too rough or too this or that, he gets reprimanded by that mare. Stallions are even enlisted as babysitters so the mares can have some free time when the babies arrive.

This warrior model we have of manhood, I think, as a culture, influences is to coddle, and spoil men. Because as a warrior they need to be without doubt of their abilities, strong without question -- then, per that model, they go out and protect us and either die or come back a hero. But war is only one aspect of maleness. Men need a place in this world other than being warriors, like taking care of the family, and husbanding our culture. It would be good if they learned as well that the world really does revolve around women and family, and they valued it more. Women carry and raise the children. Women are the glue that holds our culture together. Men do not supply that kind of glue -- they are generally not as communicative or nurturing, often not as sensitive.

Man have a wonderful role in this world; but I think it is different from the one we've assigned them. Neither gender is more important than the other. In the warrior culture, the male is more important, and female is margenalized (sp?). In our culture today, it is important to value both genders for what they bring to the table, and appreciate the differences, instead of looking for one to be more important than the other -- instead of competing. This is the glue that can knit families together, knit cultures together.

The most happy families I see are the ones where the woman, like the lead mare, is honored for her critical role, and leads when the situation calls for it (this is known as situational leadership). Now that leadership does not look the same as what we think of as traditional leadership. Generally our model of leadership is military leadership. That only works in the military -- forget it for business or home. Situational leadership is generally more thoughtful, more collaborative, more caring; and studies show it is much more effective than military leadership; unless you are in crisis -- then momentarily military leadership works best.

The other side of that puzzle, is that stallions prance and exhibit. They are admirable and they are admired. We need to allow men to prance and show how fantastic they are, and admire them for who and what they are.

Frankly, I think too many people of both sexes are stuck in puberty for their entire lives. It is hard for men to grow up if women don't either. But there are mature caring folks of both sexes out there, as well.

Just some thoughts. Belle,

[Playlife]

Originally Posted by bellemeadows

It would be good if they learned as well that the world really does revolve around women and family, and they valued it more. Women carry and raise the children. Women are the glue that holds our culture together. Men do not supply that kind of glue -- they are generally not as communicative or nurturing, often not as sensitive.

Originally Posted by bellemeadows

Neither gender is more important than the other.

???

If the world really does revolve around women and family, then you are saying that men are useless. No wonder when men are pushed away like you are doing, they become the warrior monsters - at least something they are good at then.

It's not my fault that I don't have the ability to carry a child. I'd gladly take it. And who says a man can't raise children?!

Generally not communicative, generally not nurturing, often not as sensitive - they're all generalizations. Doesn't mean that an individual man can't be part of the "glue".

But when you say I can't... might as well join military then..

[bellemeadows]

Originally Posted by Playlife

???

If the world really does revolve around women and family, then you are saying that men are useless. No wonder when men are pushed away like you are doing, they become the warrior monsters - at least something they are good at then.

It's not my fault that I don't have the ability to carry a child. I'd gladly take it. And who says a man can't raise children?!

Generally not communicative, generally not nurturing, often not as sensitive - they're all generalizations. Doesn't mean that an individual man can't be part of the "glue".

But when you say I can't... might as well join military then..

I never said men were useless. You said that. I never said men can't raise children, you said that. I never said "can't" at all, you said it.

The immature male is all the things that I described -- if you want to disagree feel free, however I don't think there is any real doubt of that. I never pushed any man away, you interpreted what I said through that filter, and pushed yourself away. What are you so afraid of?

I said that our world revolves around women and family -- there is the glue that holds our culture together. I think that is true. If it doesn't revolve around women and family, community, then what does it revolve around? And why would you find that thought so disturbing?

It looks to me that many men think the world should revolve around men. So they are lost out in the bachelor herds jousting forever. And women come into play as sexual toys and ego gratification. This, to me, is the picture of the unevolved and immature male. To the extreme, this mindset allows men to use women and children as sexual slaves all over the world; this is happening today, even in the US. This is the extreme, and brutal, yet real result of men thinking the world should revolve around men. I would not accuse men of doing such things, yet they are being done. Would you disagree? As for the military, I have no problem with the military, it has its place. But its place is not one of domination of our culture.

Yet there is another step men can take. For a mature male, being a man is relevant only if there is contrast, that which is not man, i.e., women and children, and the elderly, etc., etc. The society of a bunch of guys is not real community. To me that doesn't mean all men need to be married and committed; it does mean that they are not mature unless they are working within community -- community is not male only, or female only. It is diverse. When it is mature and caring, there is room for all, and there is care for others, not just care for onesself and one's guy buds and girl toys, and playing and the pleasures to be found there.

Without mares and foals to be raised, stallions would wander around forever in the bachelor herds, jousting with each other. It seems to me that is where the immature male is today too often; men wandering around jousting with each other, without the grounding provided by the female element and children. This is why male children are being raised by their mothers, because the men run off to joust and enjoy the chase of more females.

What do you think male maturity is all about? I heard talk of it is the woman's fault because too many men are raised without their fathers. Well, isn't it the fathers who are choosing to absent themselves from their ex-sexual conquests and their sons?

What is science without being tempered by its impact on community? What is learning if it is not used to put forward what is best for community? What is play if it is at the expense of others.

It is your belief system that is painting you into a box, not mine. In mine, I live with a lot of lovely, delightful, caring men and women. I see the others out there, but honestly, they seem rather boring to me.

The man I admire is like that stallion. Yes, there is play time. Yes there is whoppee. But there is the ability to share leadership with the lead mare and even defer leadership to her. (She is the backbone of the family, in the herd. If he gets defeated by another stallion and must move on, she will still be there, and the herd's success depends upon her.) There is the tending to the foals and the mares. There is care for community and family. There is respect.

If you want to paint your generalizations, feel free. But realize that it is you who made those points, not I. Belle,

[Playlife]

Sorry, I don't have time right now, but just one little thing:

you say "I said that our world revolves around women and family -- there is the glue that holds our culture together. I think that is true. If it doesn't revolve around women and family, community, then what does it revolve around?"

what about world revolving around women, family, community, and MEN too? Am I just a spectator looking at the wonderful world of women and community? Oh well..

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by bellemeadows

It would be good if they learned as well that the world really does revolve around women and family, and they valued it more. Women carry and raise the children. Women are the glue that holds our culture together. Men do not supply that kind of glue -- they are generally not as communicative or nurturing, often not as sensitive.

This is why men are losing leadership roles and their sense of masculinity all together. Because they see women and family as being all important and as the guide for how they should act.

Man have a wonderful role in this world; but I think it is different from the one we've assigned them. Neither gender is more important than the other. In the warrior culture, the male is more important, and female is margenalized (sp?). In our culture today, it is important to value both genders for what they bring to the table, and appreciate the differences, instead of looking for one to be more important than the other -- instead of competing. This is the glue that can knit families together, knit cultures together.

You describe a matriarchy: no competing, everyone is equal and valued. It's interesting how you put this... "the role we've assigned them". You are unconsciously putting men a little bit lower than yourself.

No offense, but you have no idea what it means to be a man any more than I have some idea what it is to be a woman.

The most happy families I see are the ones where the woman, like the lead mare, is honored for her critical role, and leads when the situation calls for it (this is known as situational leadership). Now that leadership does not look the same as what we think of as traditional leadership. Generally our model of leadership is military leadership. That only works in the military -- forget it for business or home. Situational leadership is generally more thoughtful, more collaborative, more caring; and studies show it is much more effective than military leadership; unless you are in crisis -- then momentarily military leadership works best.

I think we are confusing men and women with masculinity and femininity. The happiest families are ones where the couple knows which role they are playing and are comfortable playing it. Either the man or the woman can be the leader of a household, but the leader of the household is a masculine position.

As for leadership in general, I completely disagree with you. Many of the women I have worked for played favorites, were emotionally manipulative and over-controlling (Hitler on crack). The men I've worked for may be insensitive, but I know where I stand at all times. I know if there is a problem, he will deal with it fairly and efficiently. He won't judge by appearances, but rather by substance.

I worked in sales for a while and people could be categorized into two groups: thinkers and feelers. The thinker wants to know all the details about something and cares little for what it looks like. The feeler on the other hand will go off of how they subjectively experience something and they do care about what it looks like. Most of the time, the man was the thinker and the woman was the feeler.

Every corporation is designed off the military model and, currently, corporations rule most of the world. That's because it is a much more effective way of managing people and resources. (Like it or not and, personally, I don't like it).

The other side of that puzzle, is that stallions prance and exhibit. They are admirable and they are admired. We need to allow men to prance and show how fantastic they are, and admire them for who and what they are.

This is similar with birds. The female is camouflaged while the male is bright and pretty to attract a mate. In human beings though, which gender spends an inordinate amount of time trying to attract a mate? Why is my mom a Mary Kay lady and not me?

Frankly, I think too many people of both sexes are stuck in puberty for their entire lives. It is hard for men to grow up if women don't either. But there are mature caring folks of both sexes out there, as well.

Just some thoughts. Belle,

I agree with you there.