Completely oblivious to being hit on

[ABdude]

Somehow I get the feeling that this topic has been done to death, so bear with me.

I am a male (but then you all have that figured out already), early-mid 30's, steady income, own place, own car, and in very good shape, (did I mention that I also have a full head of hair? ). In spite of all this, I have only been in one serious relationship, which ended a couple of years ago.

After doing a bit of soul searching, I narrowed my lack of dating/relationship experience to two main factors. One, I used to be, and in some areas am painfully shy about approaching, and two, I am one hundred percent completely oblivious to women when they are hitting on me or expressing interest. Number one is a work in progress and hopefully will dissipate along with my general shyness (also a work in progress). Number two is what I am asking help/opinions on, since I am starting to realize that women can be subtle sometimes when interested in a guy. I will give you one example of a come on that I had missed.

A few years ago, I was out with some friends at a local college bar when I met a girl and we naturally just hit it off. As it turns out, she was friends/roommates with one of the guys I was with, and after the bar closed down she invited us to her place for Jager shots. A half hour later, she invites me to her room to 'talk', which we did but after I left her room and went to my car to pass out, it suddenly occurred to me that "talk" was the last thing on her mind. I saw her a couple of months later with the other guy that was at her place. Apparently they started going out a few days after the incident happened.

Granted that was a rare case, but there have been other times that I have been approached, and it usually isn't until after they have left, that I realize that hey, wasn't she just hitting on me? Its almost as if a girl has to blatantly say that she likes me that I will get the hint, which is exactly how I got into my first relationship.

Is there any way I can make myself more aware, and therefore more receptive when someone is expressing interest?

[driven1]

Originally Posted by ABdude

Is there any way I can make myself more aware, and therefore more receptive when someone is expressing interest?

Yes: practice. The more you interact with women, the better you'll get at reading body language -- open vs. closed, eye contact, synchronized behavior, non-sexual touching, etc. You should NOT have to wait for a woman to say, "I want you." or even to invite you up for a drink. You should already know by her subcommunication.

Socializing is just another skill. (No offense, but your general shyness is symptomatic of poor social skills.) Socializing with women is a subset of that. Reading a woman's attraction levels is a subset of that. Recognizing that IT'S JUST A SKILL, like learning to play guitar or speak a foreign language, was a huge epiphone for me. If you're bad at this, it doesn't mean you're a lousy person or anything -- it just means you need to work on this skill.

I can recommend some training material, but it's easy to get bogged down in theory. After all, there's zero risk of hurtful rejection when you're watching a video or reading a book. But, just like guitar, you can't just study theory all the time -- you gotta practice, A LOT, to get good. The good news is: the better you get, the more FUN this is!

Long-term, though, you really need to change your frame. You're coming from a passive "How can I tell if a girl wants me?" and you need to move towards "How do I identify and get the girl I want?" Ultimately, YOU should be the chooser, rather than pushing that decision off on the woman and "going with the flow".

I'm working on this, myself, so I can relate. And even though I've gotten very good at reading attraction signals & body language, I'm still horrible at approaching, so I've not had the success I would like. Lots of work still to do!

[Breakaway]

Just shift your mindframe. There's that character in looney toons, the skunk, who has the opposite mindset as you, he thinks everyone is in love with him, even when they're not. Next time, just assume that women are attracted to you and take any positive hint as a sign.

[dancer]

Observe your single friends or even strangers, study body language and don't be afraid to get it wrong.

Good luck.

[votoshka]

You sound like me, except I am female I have absolutely NO idea if a guy likes me or not. Yes, I figure if a guy really actively hit on me I'd notice, but he has to be completely bloody obvious about it!!

I guess I can't read body language...either that or my self esteem is too low to perceive interest, because I naturally assume that men aren't interested in me!

I am also ridiculously shy...

Sorry I can't offer anything constructive! Just letting you know that you're not the only one, and even girls can be absolutely useless about perceiving signals from the opposite sex!

[blazer1]

Originally Posted by ABdude

Somehow I get the feeling that this topic has been done to death, so bear with me.

I am a male (but then you all have that figured out already), early-mid 30's, steady income, own place, own car, and in very good shape, (did I mention that I also have a full head of hair? ). In spite of all this, I have only been in one serious relationship, which ended a couple of years ago.

After doing a bit of soul searching, I narrowed my lack of dating/relationship experience to two main factors. One, I used to be, and in some areas am painfully shy about approaching, and two, I am one hundred percent completely oblivious to women when they are hitting on me or expressing interest. Number one is a work in progress and hopefully will dissipate along with my general shyness (also a work in progress). Number two is what I am asking help/opinions on, since I am starting to realize that women can be subtle sometimes when interested in a guy. I will give you one example of a come on that I had missed.

A few years ago, I was out with some friends at a local college bar when I met a girl and we naturally just hit it off. As it turns out, she was friends/roommates with one of the guys I was with, and after the bar closed down she invited us to her place for Jager shots. A half hour later, she invites me to her room to 'talk', which we did but after I left her room and went to my car to pass out, it suddenly occurred to me that "talk" was the last thing on her mind. I saw her a couple of months later with the other guy that was at her place. Apparently they started going out a few days after the incident happened.

Granted that was a rare case, but there have been other times that I have been approached, and it usually isn't until after they have left, that I realize that hey, wasn't she just hitting on me? Its almost as if a girl has to blatantly say that she likes me that I will get the hint, which is exactly how I got into my first relationship.

Is there any way I can make myself more aware, and therefore more receptive when someone is expressing interest?

man i get what you mean. i recently realised the number one goal for humans is to have sex.

so for a guy, when a girl is doing things ... she is doing it because she wants to have sex with you.

when a girl in the office is directly 12 o'clock to you talking to some gay guy ... she is there because she knows you can look at her and become interested by her curvy hips.

a girls job is to flaunt her fruits ... a guys job is to pick and eat the fruit.


so the point is, whatever a girl does around you, she wants you to have sex with her. even if she wants you to be friends with her, she unknowingly wants you to have sex with her.

as a male, you must assume every girl wants to have sex with you. and you cant go wrong!


ALSO, you must NEVER propose sex as if it was your idea ... sex must ALWAYS be the girls idea!

[AuspiciousEight]

ABdude,

I have five words for you. Drop your fear of rejection. If you're interested in dating, sex, relationships, etc, you have to make this known to the woman/women you're interested in. The best way to overcome your fear or shyness sometimes is to just do it(as Nike suggests). The single biggest factor about getting women has nothing to do with looks, personality, "talking the talk", etc. It's just a matter of confidence.

As votoshka pointed out, women can be just as oblivious to the signs as you are, so you may have to make it very obvious to the girl. Of course, this depends on the girl as well. Know who you're going after.

As far as being oblivious when a woman comes onto you, I can't really help you there, as I'm far worse in this department. I recall several occasions throughout school where a girl would hit on me for months, or even years, before I realized it. I always thought they were just being friendly, so they would normally have to come right out and say that they really liked me or ask me out for me to realize it. Either that, or they would to take me somewhere where we can be alone and...wait, I'll spare you the details.

Thinking back on it, almost all of the girls I talked to on a regular basis were very friendly and open with me...Maybe I missed out on more "opportunities" than I thought?

Anyway, my point is, don't be afraid, and make your intentions known. The greatest things in my life have always come to me when I said, "what the hell", and did something that I would normally be afraid to do.

Good luck,

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by AuspiciousEight

The single biggest factor about getting women has nothing to do with looks, personality, "talking the talk", etc. It's just a matter of confidence.

Hmm, aren't you contradicting yourself there?

Unless you mean confidence in the sense of just being confident enough to approach someone?

Originally Posted by AuspiciousEight

I recall several occasions throughout school where a girl would hit on me for months, or even years, before I realized it. I always thought they were just being friendly, so they would normally have to come right out and say that they really liked me or ask me out for me to realize it. Either that, or they would to take me somewhere where we can be alone and...wait, I'll spare you the details.

At my school girls would often hit on me, with a slap to the face! Not really, they just called me names instead.

[Alexjstrandberg]

"everything they do means they love me" just assume that the women you talk to are into you. Just assume the sale ahead of time.

Many many times I have been talking to a girl who appeared to not be into me only to end up with her number or a kiss or whatever. You can look for things to show you that she is into you but most of the time when a woman is attracted to you she won't be showing these tail tell signs.

For me, I just use this "rule" if she is still talking to me, she is attracted to me. Don't worry about whether or not she touches her hair, her eyes shift to the left and if her breathing increases.

If you take that route you feel more like a doctor trying to diagnose her attraction for her "you seem to be breathing deeply, check. Hair touching, check. Pupils dilated, check. Ok she is now attracted, commence physical escalation."

Don't worry so much if she is into you, find out what you think of her. Find out if you are attracted to her. If you go in for a kiss and she rejects you, it's not the end of the world. Trust me, you will survive.

The reason you want to figure out if she is into you or not is so that you won't have to face the possibility of being *gulp* rejected or laughed at. It's that very fear that is holding you back from success. It's an irrational fear but one that you need to go through in order to realize that reading her wrong and getting the shoulder is not the end of the world.

and some of the time the girl just needs to know how you will react when she says she doesn't want to be kissed in order to see if she can trust you or not. If she does reject you, treat it like the most natural thing in the world and say "ok, we'll kiss later when you are more comfortable."

[driven1]

This is a self-fulfilling prophecy and can be an excellent short-cut to success:

Originally Posted by Alexjstrandberg

"everything they do means they love me" just assume that the women you talk to are into you. Just assume the sale ahead of time.

But I would say you need to couple that frame with high value body language -- i.e., you need to project the behavior and sub-communication of a high value guy or girls will see through your facade and recognize that you're just a choad who's trying to act like he's something special. And if you don't know how to do this, you need to learn. I hope to write up some advice on this in the future, because I've had some major breakthroughs lately.

You know what's funny, though, is even though I went the long route of figuring out body language and attraction signals, I've pretty much arrived at the same place: just about every girl I meet wants me. The difference being, I feel like I have the evidence to support my assertion. As an engineering/science guy, that's important and, frankly, fascinating to me. Mindblowing, even.

<small>And it's not all positive -- it's put me in some awkward spots: My friends' girlfriends want me. My friends' wives want me. My guitarist's 17yo sister wants me (I'm 37) -- hell, HIS MOM wants me. It's blindingly obvious by their subcommunication. It's sad, in a way... I feel as though I can't truly be friends with women because they want to hook up with me. (Hmm, I need to hang out with lesbians.) I realize that sounds arrogant and even delusional as hell... but imagine the same sentiment coming from a very attractive girl, and it makes total sense. Actually, as a guy who never used to think of himself as particularly attractive, I find that to be a helpful frame to take sometimes: How would a really hot girl handle this situation? What would she say? What would she do?</small>

So you can either science your way though it by learning to read attraction signals, and you'll realize that women hit on you CONSTANTLY, or you can faith your way by just assuming they all want you. Your choice.

[fitx3]

Originally Posted by blazer1

man i get what you mean. i recently realised the number one goal for humans is to have sex.

so for a guy, when a girl is doing things ... she is doing it because she wants to have sex with you.

when a girl in the office is directly 12 o'clock to you talking to some gay guy ... she is there because she knows you can look at her and become interested by her curvy hips.

a girls job is to flaunt her fruits ... a guys job is to pick and eat the fruit.


so the point is, whatever a girl does around you, she wants you to have sex with her. even if she wants you to be friends with her, she unknowingly wants you to have sex with her.

as a male, you must assume every girl wants to have sex with you. and you cant go wrong!


ALSO, you must NEVER propose sex as if it was your idea ... sex must ALWAYS be the girls idea!

Whatever it is that you are smoking Blazer1, you should stop now.

I find it amazing how one can think that just because a woman stands around talking to a man means that she wants sex from the guy across the room! This is ludicrous. She may really need to talk with this person. The guy across the room may need to be evaluated by a shrink.

"even if she wants you to be friends with her, she unknowingly wants you to have sex with her." This statement is hilarious! Don't believe this, in fact check out the ladder theory thread. Although it's not all totally true, it's closer to fact than what Blazer1's theory is! LMAO

ABdude when it's right, you'll know it. If she really wants you, she'll attack you. End of story.

[blazer1]

fitx3 ... you need to pay more attention to detail.

[ABdude]

Just shift your mindframe. There's that character in looney toons, the skunk, who has the opposite mindset as you, he thinks everyone is in love with him, even when they're not. Next time, just assume that women are attracted to you and take any positive hint as a sign.

A lot of seduction sites mirror that statement, and its a mindframe that I try to get into whenever I go out in public. The only times that I find it hard to be in that frame is when I am sick, or stressed (the last two weeks for example).

I have five words for you. Drop your fear of rejection

Aha! I avoided putting it into my initial post but you hit the nail right on the head. I could go on and on about how this fear but suffice to say in my mind there are few things worse. I have read a couple of stories about guys who purposely go out to get rejected, often with surprising results (more often than not, they DON'T get rejected). Maybe its an exercise I should look into doing.

ABdude when it's right, you'll know it. If she really wants you, she'll attack you. End of story.

Haha, that's how I ended up with my last girlfriend. We met on the first day at work, and by the end of the week, I had the distinct feeling that she had a crush on me, (as it turned out that was a HUGE understatement). Friday night after work, she invited me over to her place for a movie, told me blatantly that she liked me, and literally jumped me. Suffice to say, I didn't have any problems knowing what to do after that.

[AuspiciousEight]

Originally Posted by blazer1

so the point is, whatever a girl does around you, she wants you to have sex with her. even if she wants you to be friends with her, she unknowingly wants you to have sex with her.

as a male, you must assume every girl wants to have sex with you. and you cant go wrong!

blazer,

If a woman says she wants to only be friends, this does NOT translate into "Please, I want you to nail me".

Believing that when a woman says no she secretly means yes will simply land you in jail, or will get you shot by the woman's husband/boyfriend/father/brother, etc. Not to mention the karmic consequences of your actions...

Using the defense of, "When she says no she actually means yes" is a classic defense and mindset of a rapist, and will not hold up in the court of law. In many parts of the world you will not be sent to jail for the crime of rape, you will simply be executed.

I must concur with fitx3 when I say, whatever it is you're smoking, you should stop now.

On a side note, I assure you that there are many faithful wives, including my own, who do NOT want to have sex with you. Not even "unknowingly".

[metamorph]

Originally Posted by ABdude

Somehow I get the feeling that this topic has been done to death, so bear with me.

I am a male (but then you all have that figured out already), early-mid 30's, steady income, own place, own car, and in very good shape, (did I mention that I also have a full head of hair? ). In spite of all this, I have only been in one serious relationship, which ended a couple of years ago.

After doing a bit of soul searching, I narrowed my lack of dating/relationship experience to two main factors. One, I used to be, and in some areas am painfully shy about approaching, and two, I am one hundred percent completely oblivious to women when they are hitting on me or expressing interest. Number one is a work in progress and hopefully will dissipate along with my general shyness (also a work in progress). Number two is what I am asking help/opinions on, since I am starting to realize that women can be subtle sometimes when interested in a guy. I will give you one example of a come on that I had missed.

A few years ago, I was out with some friends at a local college bar when I met a girl and we naturally just hit it off. As it turns out, she was friends/roommates with one of the guys I was with, and after the bar closed down she invited us to her place for Jager shots. A half hour later, she invites me to her room to 'talk', which we did but after I left her room and went to my car to pass out, it suddenly occurred to me that "talk" was the last thing on her mind. I saw her a couple of months later with the other guy that was at her place. Apparently they started going out a few days after the incident happened.

Granted that was a rare case, but there have been other times that I have been approached, and it usually isn't until after they have left, that I realize that hey, wasn't she just hitting on me? Its almost as if a girl has to blatantly say that she likes me that I will get the hint, which is exactly how I got into my first relationship.

Is there any way I can make myself more aware, and therefore more receptive when someone is expressing interest?

Approach, whoever you want to approach. Do not screen for indicators of interest from her side first. If she is not interested, you will find out at some stage.

[blazer1]

I really do think you all missed the bigger picture amongst all the audacious crap I wrote.

The essence in what I am saying is ... ultimately a girl wants a boy to have sex with her and vice versa. We have all this ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that surrounds this simple truth, such as mind games, flirting, hard-to-get, etc ... that we sometimes forget what it is we are actually trying to achieve.

So I do understand if a girl is standing in front of you, who is happily married, talking to her brother whom she hasn't seen in decades she is likely not trying to capture your attention. However, if this girl knows a guy is looking at her, or she knows she is in a guys view ... then she will do her best not to look ugly, she will be self-aware towards looking her best.

For us guys, we have our own things we do.

Do you kind of see where I am headed with this?


Don't be so defensive ... its only a natural ... and for most an unconscious part of life.


So again to return to the OPs question, how he can make himself more receptive to woman expressing interest? : Assume all woman want you. You are a male, she is a female ...

[ilovetoday]

Tips to decipher if a woman may be hitting on you :

Touching You-even just on your upper arm when she says hi
Touching Herself- unconsciously we groom ourselves when talking to some one we are attracted to. ie playing with hair, straightening shirt.
asking you questions about yourself- self explanatory-she is interested in you
Laughing at Your Jokes- especially if they are bad she is trying to make you feel good when you are around her
Eye Contact- From accross the room, if she catches your eyes and holds it for three seconds good sign- if she does it three times or more she is definitley keen. When she scans the room and catches your eye if she looks down then she has decided your it there is no need to keep looking, if she stops then keeps on scanning you didnt meet the criteria.

[driven1]

Originally Posted by fitx3

I find it amazing how one can think that just because a woman stands around talking to a man means that she wants sex from the guy across the room! This is ludicrous. She may really need to talk with this person. The guy across the room may need to be evaluated by a shrink.

If Jessica Biel is talking to a man, she KNOWS he wants to nail her. And, frankly, she know that every straight man in room wants to nail her. THIS is the frame you have to take -- but, thinking about it, it takes more personal work for a man to get to that point than this approach implies. I'm having second thoughts that the "every woman wants me" shortcut could actually work, and work consistantly. Here's why I feel this way:

Women can tell if you are a high value guy entirely by your behavior. But realize that even your own body language throws out obvious clues as to your social value. When a guy stands with his back to the bar, drink clutched to his chest in closed, protective body language, chatting with nobody, staring at the hot women whom he knows he can never have -- this used to be me, btw -- he betrays to every girl within site that he's a low value guy. He is, for lack of a better word, "ugly" to them. Unattractive. Creepy, even -- and quite possibly a threat to their physical, if not emotional, well-being. This loser guy quite clearly needs to take, take, take to feel better about himself. And he clearly views himself as lower in social value than the woman in question. If she mates with him or is even observed flirting with him, she would be lowering her own social value. It'd be like a guy hooking up with a very unattractive girl and all his friends knowing about it. Un-comfortable!

My point is this: You have GOT to purge this sort of low value behavior and replace it with high value behavior if you are to be viewed as a "hot" guy. (I'll give examples of high vs. low value male behavior in another post, cuz I don't want to derail this one.)

So, look, you can do the "every girl wants me" shortcut, but if you don't accompany it with high value behavior, this route won't be very successful because any well-socialized girl will see right through it. And, yeah, almost all hot women are well-socialized and probably twice as good at reading body language than us men will ever be.

"even if she wants you to be friends with her, she unknowingly wants you to have sex with her." This statement is hilarious! Don't believe this, in fact check out the ladder theory thread. Although it's not all totally true, it's closer to fact than what Blazer1's theory is! LMAO

Ladder theory is a poor model, but at least it's A Model. Many people believe that human mating behavior can't be modeled at all. I vehemently disagree. Blazer1's theory is really pretty close, but I think it's oversimplified -- a pretty, confident facade on an ugly, needy soul is flirting with disaster, IMO.

Originally Posted by blazer1

So I do understand if a girl is standing in front of you, who is happily married, talking to her brother whom she hasn't seen in decades she is likely not trying to capture your attention.

(I think you mean "YOU are not likely to capture HER attention", no?) I would suggest you should capture her attention about as much as Jessica Biel captures the attention of a happily married man -- i.e., wow that person is HOT, but hey I love my spouse and I'm happy right here. And, just to be clear, I am a huge fan of happy couples; they're just rare, in my experience.

Originally Posted by blazer1

However, if this girl knows a guy is looking at her, or she knows she is in a guys view ... then she will do her best not to look ugly, she will be self-aware towards looking her best.

If he's looking at her and not talking to her because, well, it's scary to approach an unfamiliar woman, she will generally infer that he doesn't view himself as being high enough social value to talk with her. He, therefore, is not attractive to her.

Finally.... (sorry this got long!)

Originally Posted by fitx3

ABdude when it's right, you'll know it. If she really wants you, she'll attack you. End of story.

Sure she will, but you have to take the lead. YOU approach HER at the coffee shop -- don't wait for her to make the move. (Still so difficult for me!) You deliver that first kiss when you know she's just dying for it. You lead her to the bedroom when she's ready. Don't passively wait for the girl make all the decisions, because she usually won't. Create your own reality.

I do want to address AuspiciousEight's second response (you're assuming a needy, low value, low self-esteem guy), but it's past 2:30am here and I have to be up early tomorrow. Good night, and thank you all for great conversation.

[teatree]

I think most of us when we first start out don't know when we're being hit on (that goes for women as well as men). Body language is something you learn with time. Get some books on the subject and then just start watching people.

But ultimately, you need to start asking people out, instead of constantly pondering about it. Yes, you'll get rejected - but women like being asked out, even if we're going to say no (because already committed or some other reason). It's flattering to be asked out, especially if the man is personable. So ask away. If you get rejected, hopefully it will be in a polite way - but know that even if you get the brush-off, you'll have made someone's day just by asking. Therefore don't feel embarassed about it.

[Apple Eye]

Originally Posted by votoshka

You sound like me, except I am female I have absolutely NO idea if a guy likes me or not. Yes, I figure if a guy really actively hit on me I'd notice, but he has to be completely bloody obvious about it!!

I guess I can't read body language...either that or my self esteem is too low to perceive interest, because I naturally assume that men aren't interested in me!

I am also ridiculously shy...

Sorry I can't offer anything constructive! Just letting you know that you're not the only one, and even girls can be absolutely useless about perceiving signals from the opposite sex!

LOL...are you my twin?

I'm exactly the same way - totally clueless!

[driven1]

Originally Posted by ilovetoday

Tips to decipher if a woman may be hitting on you :

Touching You-even just on your upper arm when she says hi
Touching Herself- unconsciously we groom ourselves when talking to some one we are attracted to. ie playing with hair, straightening shirt.
asking you questions about yourself- self explanatory-she is interested in you
Laughing at Your Jokes- especially if they are bad she is trying to make you feel good when you are around her
Eye Contact- From accross the room, if she catches your eyes and holds it for three seconds good sign- if she does it three times or more she is definitley keen. When she scans the room and catches your eye if she looks down then she has decided your it there is no need to keep looking, if she stops then keeps on scanning you didnt meet the criteria.

Good list. (I like lists.) I personally disagree on the eye contact a little bit. If she holds eye contact for three whole seconds, dude she LIKES you and wishes you would come talk to her. Give her a smile, walk over, and say hi. I've always read that the eye contact + looking down action was positive (not negative) as well, but I can't confirm this with experience. But I know that if you keep doing the eye contact without approaching, going back to her eyes for more and more validation, she's going to get creeped out that you're "staring at her". Three times would be pushing it. I've had this happen many times, FWIW, and really pissed some women off / creeped them out -- once you do that, you're done. Any attraction for you is G-O-N-E, baby.

I'm gonna add a few things if I may:
Facing You - When you're talking with her, she's facing you. If she's turned away, talking over her shoulder, she's not into you. (Or she's trying to play it cool, *pretending* she's not into you! Heck, I do this myself A LOT.)
Open Body Language - Simply put, her arms aren't crossed.
Synchonized Motion - She acts when you act. The most common example I can think of is she drinks from her glass when you drink from yours. This is a big one. If you see her doing this, it is ON -- she really likes you. Then again, if she's sync-ing with your buddy... hmmm, sorry!
Bragging on Herself - When a girl starts talking about how much money she has, how cool her car is, how some guy was hitting on her... basically ANYTHING to try to impress you, she likes you. And if it's something you like (say, if she mentions she's a really good snowboarder and you're into that), reward her. This is a great way to bond, to build rapport. Conversely, never EVER brag on yourself. It betrays insecurity, which kills attraction in women.
Happy to be touched by you - This is the sorta the reverse of the "Touching You" note above. She's comfortable being touched by you and doesn't shrink away. (But even if she likes you, you gotta start small and build from there or you'll freak her out and make her think that all you want is sex. Google "kino escalation" for more info.)

Note that you'll also get a lot of these subconscious signals from other guys that consider you higher value than them - basically, they consider you their "leader". (Except the touching. If a guy touches you, puts his arm around you or whatever, that's an alpha move -- he's saying, "I'm higher value than you." to you and everybody who sees this behavior. The correct response is not to get angry or indignant, of course, but to touch him back in a similarly or slightly more invasive manner -- that says, "No, you're not.")

Also, you can observe other people's behavior in a room and tell a lot about the couples present by their subcommunication towards each other. I swear once you get it, it's like a mild form of telepathy. It's frankly depressing how many "couples" (incl. married ones) are one-sided, i.e. one person is into their mate, but their mate isn't that into them. I guess a lot of people are afraid to be alone.

But I can confirm, from experience, that "So I noticed you're not really into your boyfriend..." is a terrible, terrible conversation opener...

[Lauxa]

Originally Posted by blazer1

as a male, you must assume every girl wants to have sex with you. and you cant go wrong!

ALSO, you must NEVER propose sex as if it was your idea ... sex must ALWAYS be the girls idea!

Hey Blazer, I love this, I think there is some truth here. I mean, at a conscious level I certainly don't want to have sex with every guy I meet. But I sometimes think that if almost any guy played things just the right way, we could end up having sex. But NOT if it was his idea!

And for you saying that this is "rapist talk", how can it be rape if it's her idea??

LMAO, this is good stuff.

[driven1]

Originally Posted by Lauxa

And for you saying that this is "rapist talk", how can it be rape if it's her idea??

Yeah, really. It's the difference between every woman wanting to have sex with you (high value man), and you wanting to have sex with every woman (low value man). The high value man is only going to want to hook up with high value (very attractive) women anyhow, so the less attractive women aren't involved in this picture anyhow.

Again, it's the same mindset that a super hot girl has. Just because she CAN have sex with any man in the room, doesn't mean she wants to. The difference is that for a girl, so much comes down to her physical appearance. For a guy, it really is all in your head. But I think I've figured out why...

[driven1]

Just a followup thought about the reading body language in other couples...

Most of the time, if it's a negative thing you see, I think you're best off keeping your observations to yourself. Suppose, for example, you observe your best friend and his girlfriend together, and you can tell by their body language that he's crazy about her, but she's really not that into him.

You sure as hell can't say anything to him -- he's going to interpret it as you trying to put him down and possibly even trying to steal his girl. He will, almost always, sooner lose a friend than admit he's on the losing side of a one-sided relationship. You can't say anything to her. That's basically accusing her of being a manipulative, dishonest ♥♥♥♥♥♥. She's going to run back and tell him, and, well, same result.

You can't even discuss your concerns with a mutual friend. The risk of that discussion leaking back to your best friend are too great. I've had this sort of thing happen before. You think you're helping, but it blows up in your face.

On the other hand, if they are completely into each other, it's perfectly fine for you to go, "Awwww... look how sweet they are together!" and join in the joy, as it were.

Guess what I'm saying is that all superpowers have their downsides.

[dali]

better to be comfortable with yourself i think. all this balonney about eye contact ,touchy feely laughing like a hyena when you tell a bad joke cwap comes from really bad tv shows and magazine articles written by low life louts who are making it all up to fool you . yes you might end up with a string of "Conquests" haha but watch out when you start mounting strangers on the metro because they happen to laugh like a dog when they accidentally brush up against you.Or look at you for more than three seconds over their newspaper. You are quite a hit for your full head of hairish self so if you let your appreciation of that self go deeper you will as you do learn to appreciate women as much(not many of them are bald) and you will sense when its real. Otherwise follow the wisdom of the age and miss the point altogether. Sounds to me that you are doing very well, taking your time,working it out. That guys room mate was obviously not hitting on you in particular not when she was hitting on him so soon thereafter.If its just sex you want hell listen to them, believe them and follow their advice.Theyre all getting plenty obviously, but then you risk the loss of an innocence which might not come back and which a lot of people find really attractive in a guy. think a bit more and enjoy maturing into the MAN you are destined to be.And dont worry you will dazzle when the time is right.

[ABdude]

I just wanted to say a big thanks to all the responses. Lately I have been going out with the mindset that rather than look for an IOI (indicator of interest), I have decided to generate my own IOI if I happen to see someone attractive. Its too early to say whether or not its working, but at the same time I have also been working on ways to improve my social confidence as well.

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by Lauxa

Hey Blazer, I love this, I think there is some truth here. I mean, at a conscious level I certainly don't want to have sex with every guy I meet. But I sometimes think that if almost any guy played things just the right way, we could end up having sex. But NOT if it was his idea!

I agree, and try to cultivate a simular mindset. I'm not 'forcing' the girl in any way. I'm firm, but nice with it; and I can always walk away at any time, with a smile. I enjoy the interaction, the sharing. I apprecieate her beauty and the depth of her being. I genuinely like her (or I wouldn't be there), and I think if you don't force it, it gives HER the space, for HER desire to build..

I also think that being contrived, manipulative, or anything but just natural; is actually counter-productive, and aside from anything else, just stresses you out even more (as a guy).

[driven1]

Originally Posted by dali

better to be comfortable with yourself i think.

Oh, absolutely!! But that's a really tall order -- basically impossible -- for a lot of us, especially in the presence of a girl you really want to start something with. The best some of us can hope for, at least in the beginning, is to *act* comfortable, at least until we start actually *getting* comfortable approaching and talking with women -- some people call it "fake it 'til you make it", and it works pretty well with retraining deep-rooted behavioral patterns.

And ya know, I hate that I even have to say this: Not all men who want to be good at romancing women just want meaningless, short-term sex. I mean, how am I going to meet my dream girl if I'm acting so insecure and needy that she won't even give me the time of day?

Not to mention the attitude that a man will have sex with any woman who will let him. Ugh, how insulting! Turn that around: "You (and any woman) will have sex with any man who will have you." Kinda makes your skin crawl, huh? I mean, "...mounting strangers on the metro..."? Seriously??

If that's how you really feel about men then that's your opinion and you probably have good reasons for it. Just makes me sad is all.

Originally Posted by dali

...all this balonney about eye contact ,touchy feely laughing...

It's not baloney -- it's subcommunication: the language of love.

Originally Posted by dali

And dont worry you will dazzle when the time is right.

So if you fail to "dazzle"... if, instead, you lock up, don't know what to say, stare at her without approaching, and totally creep her out... I guess the time just wasn't "right". Oh well. Them's the breaks!

Ooooooor, you can LEARN how to "dazzle", learn how to recognize and change your own unattractive behavior, learn to choose FOR YOURSELF when the time is right and have a pretty good chance of success, rather than just passively waiting for success to come to you.

[MaxLight]

hey ABdude

In my opinion it's your general confidence that's the problem here. I have a very interesting proposition for you.

Until about 2 years ago I wasn't much good with women, very hit or miss and my biggest complaint was that I couldn't tell if they were interested. I was too much in my mind, looking for mathematical signals almost of interest, which is hard to keep track of if that's all your looking for. Then I finally "got it" with girls and I realised the most amazing thing.

I had known damn well all along which girls were interested but told myself I didn't so that I wouldn't have to try with girls without certainty and risk rejection

Let me just re-iterate that,

I already knew which girls were interested.

I didn't have the confidence in myself however to take these signals as real and very much repressed them.They come from a general feel you'll get when you're talking to a girl, you'll just automatically sense she likes you, in fact you already do but it's quietened by your mind because it doesn't want to be rejected and with your ego tied up in what girls think of you, destroyed.

So, my proposition, come on here and admit that you already know when a girl is interested.

You'll admit it to us but more to yourself and your mind will not be able to cover it up even nearly as easily. If you can do that you'll have put a permanent crack in your fear of rejection and this honesty with yourself will reflect itself in a greater sense of freedom and a greater deal of ease around women.

Remember the machinery to tell if a girl is interested is already inside you, as is the machinery to be confident and natural with women. Reading lists of indicators of interest may be useful if you start to experience a lack of confidence when talking to a woman, but that basic underlying sense of when a woman is attracted to you is already a part of you.

If you can feel that and be honest with yourself then you will probably feel a strange relief come over you. Admitting that here would require confidence and honesty and you'll have broken and you'll have, in an instant, broken through a barrier with women.

[ABdude]

Okay, you got me. Looking back, a good deal of those instances I was too scared, (or too drunk), to make a move on a girl that was hitting on me. Most of the reason was because I have a deathly fear of rejection, to the point where I would do anything to avoid even the possibility of rejection, (ironically this causes me to be rejected more, but I digress). However, some of my fear isn't exactly from rejection/failure but also of success. Somehow, when I was growing up, I had got it in my head that assuring my sexuality was wrong and that hitting on a girl was "sleazy". I also have/had the belief that women were pure and didn't engage in such 'wrong' acts like having casual sex. Finally, because of a physical genetic "abnormality' (my old man has it too), and because of my shyness, I felt extremely unattractive.

All these factors, plus a few others mental-health related created the 'perfect storm', which resulted in me going out on very few dates, and losing my virginity at an age when most men my age are married with kids.

Until about 2 years ago I wasn't much good with women, very hit or miss and my biggest complaint was that I couldn't tell if they were interested. I was too much in my mind, looking for mathematical signals almost of interest, which is hard to keep track of if that's all your looking for. Then I finally "got it" with girls and I realised the most amazing thing.

So how did you get to that point in which you were like, "Aha! I finally get all this now."