should vows keep us together?

[jfrancis]

My husband and I are talking about divorce. He thinks we should stick it out, even though nothing seems to change between us, and neither of us is really happy with the other – he’s a highly rational optimist, and can easily be content in a bad situation. While this is an admirable trait, I on the other hand, think that after eight+ years, we should cut our losses and see if there is a chance for greater things elsewhere. We married somewhat young, and have no kids. He has made it clear to me that if we were to divorce it would be me leaving him. He would thus want to sever any ties with me because I would have broken his trust irreparably by breaking vows which = lying! He would consider me unworthy to even talk to because I will have proved 100% untrustworthy by breaking my vows. That’s a tough pill for me to swallow. I don’t want to be just one more person who breaks his trust and gets shut out of his life. I don’t want to hurt him like that. I don't want to hurt him at all. Didn’t I vow to be there for him? I don’t need to have vows with someone to be able to trust them, but apparently, he did/does. I find it hurtful that he would be so willing to throw it ALL away. I feel like that isn't really love, and it makes me want to leave even more. I am not naive to think that splitting up would not be painful, I know that, but this sentiment has come as a bit of a shocker for me. Maybe it is just because he is hurt, which is understandable, but should I take it as a dare? Is that a good reason to stay in a relationship with someone? Vows alone? Why do people take vows anyway, if they don’t mean anything down the road? Just call it quits even if you said “in good times…bad times …till death?” What was the point of saying those things? So many people get divorced, I almost feel old fashioned for asking these questions, but how do they handle this with their ex-s and in future relationships? If I leave, I feel like my word will be devalued. I don’t know if I could ever trust myself again.

[jfrancis]

Oh, by the way: "Hello to all." That was my first post. Nice to be here. I value any input anyone might have. Thank you.

[Angela]

Welcome, jfrancis. I hope you have a wonderful time here.

I understand the importance of maintaining your integrity, including keeping your word. And -- it sounds to me like your husband has got some old pain related to someone breaking their word.

The thing about your marriage vows is that each of you made certain promises to each other and to yourselves, and promises often require renegotiation and rethinking. It was actually a set of promises you made, right? Not simply, I promise to stick with you till one of us dies, but also: I promise to be the best possible friend and mate to you, to doing my utmost to being a great partner. To support each other's well-being. Forever.

Notwithstanding what I consider to be the absurdity of marriage vows, and how people get caught up in making promises without fully comprehending that things change as you get older (it's sort of a devil's contract), one thing worth considering is: you are and especially he is focusing on that one "stick-together" vow to the exclusion of all the others. I'm not saying anyone is at fault, because blame has no place in living a life I love. But . It does sound like it's possible that one or both of you has let the bit about being the best possible person for one another kind of slip by the wayside.

To me, supporting each other's well-being is the promise I find most valuable as a marriage vow. Not "making" each other happy, but supporting each other in that commitment. You find yourself in a situation where you believe that you're not supporting each other in being happy. Don't you think that is an important aspect of marriage? If you tell him you're unhappy, and his response is basically, "Deal with it!", that doesn't sound very supportive to me.

What if you were to tell yourself, look, I promise to support his well-being, but that does not include subjugating my own. You might want to have a talk with him that gently leads him to the other, red-headed stepchild vows, and ask him what he sees possible in your relationship for revitalizing those. If you're only going to stick to the vows that are important to him, and forget about the ones that are important to you, how much integrity is there in that?

I don't suggest confronting him with a "Look, buddy, you haven't exactly kept up your end of the bargain, either." But would it be worthwhile to explore with him where that old abandonment/broken promise pain came from, and perhaps in another conversation, to talk about how merely staying married is not tantamount to being loving, long-term, mutually beneficial relationship (LLTMBR) partners -- it takes keeping those other vows, too.

It's possible that having integrity can involve breaking a promise, and then cleaning it up, or paying the consequences.

[Tigerlilly]

Hi jfrancis, and welcome on board.

When I first read your question, my intuitive first answer was: No, of course not, love should keep you together or nothing at all.

I never felt it to be wrong to say your marriage vows if it's done in good faith at the moment you say them. But then the usual vows don't take into consideration that people aren't solid objects but ever changing during the course of their lifes.

To try and pin another human being down like a butterfly, spiking it straight through the heart so you can keep it for all times by using a vow they once gave in good faith is shallow, selfish and disrespectful to the other one.

To me it looks as if your hubby is trying to do just that, and though I understand the fear and anger that makes him try it, I don't feel that anyone must give in to such emotional blackmail. Duty is a dead thing, it is a "should" message from your mind, when your heart knows better. So my advice would be: Follow your heart, not his fears.

In doing that and being honest to yourself you do all that anyone could ever ask of you. Show compassion and understanding, but do not let yourself be blackmailed into slavery of any sort.

Yes, he might be in pain; yes, he might cut you out of his life, but I believe in the power of truth and love and that both set you and him free and on the course in life you are meant to be on.

[jfrancis]

Thanks, Angela. Funny, I recently had a conversation about this very thing. You worded it a little better than I did, though I had thought it would be interesting to find a copy of the vows we said and go over them. For him, though, vows are non-negotiable. If you break one, it nulls the rest, and he doesn't consider that he has ever broken a vow to me - he always tries to love, honor, etc. So he sees all this talk of love as me "sugar coating" this awful thing I want to do to him. So it's forever and ever, or I pack up my bags and cat (and he'd like it if I could make up my mind today - ugh.) If he had given me this ultimatum before we were married, I would be much more inclined to tell him to take a hike. I strive for unconditional love in all of my relationships. I can commit to loving him and honoring him, because I want him to grow - of course I care very much! Maybe I should just stay, and see if we can work through this, but by staying I have to promise to keep all of those vows which I feel is a trap. Then I am really risking my integrity - committing to something that I now know I am not comfortable living with - at least right now - and I can only be who I am right now! But if, I don't, I'm having to rent a uhaul. I have no wiggle room here!
Plus, is it foolhardy to think that my presence in his life is really helpful, I mean if he has trouble forgiving and trusting, how can my simply sticking by him really help him with that?

[m4xx]

What kind of greater things are you looking for btw?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by jfrancis

I had thought it would be interesting to find a copy of the vows we said and go over them.

It's funny, marriage is possibly the most important agreement you make in your life -- it's a lifetime contract -- and I doubt that most people even know where to find a copy of the vows that are included in that contract. Can you imagine buying a house and not keeping a copy of the contract?

I think it would be a good idea to post your marriage vows on the refrigerator.

[jfrancis]

Greater things? Maybe I don't mean 'greater' as such, because that doesn't honor the time we have spent together: he is a good man. What I feel is missing from our relationship: affection, space, unconditional love, letting the other person just 'be.' I have experienced these qualities in other relationships, I have seen it in my parents to a degree, so I know I am not asking for some pie-in-the sky scenario. I think it could be out there for both of us.

[pianoperformer]

Seriously, you need to get over the guilt he is trying to hold over you, and do what you believe is best for you. He will get over himself. If he cuts off contact, that's rather immature of him, and is his own problem, not your's. You deserve to be happy.

[sheffy4]

Originally Posted by jfrancis

Greater things? Maybe I don't mean 'greater' as such, because that doesn't honor the time we have spent together: he is a good man. What I feel is missing from our relationship: affection, space, unconditional love, letting the other person just 'be.' I have experienced these qualities in other relationships, I have seen it in my parents to a degree, so I know I am not asking for some pie-in-the sky scenario. I think it could be out there for both of us.

And it's not possible to cultivate these qualities in your current relationship?

[jfrancis]

Thank you for your posts. They have all been very helpful. I realize that in many ways, I was backing him into a corner, which is why he reacted so strongly - of course there is more to the situation than will fit in one tiny post. We have had some time and space. I can truly say that my staying is because of my love for him, not out of duty. And he has conveyed to me that he in no way wants to hold me back from becoming the best person I can be. We came to a point this evening where we had some very fruitful discussion on our interpretations of some of those pesky vows (still don't have a copy, Angela, but I am pretty sure they were relatively generic, so we are going with those for now). "To have and to hold..." is a particularly interesting one - but I think we are making headway. Thanks again.

[jfrancis]

Originally Posted by sheffy4

And it's not possible to cultivate these qualities in your current relationship?

Thank you, sheffy. Yes, it is possible. Seems crazy difficult right now, though.

[m4xx]

Good luck to you

[carenkh]

jfrancis, When I was reading your posts, I thought of a discussion group some friends of mine started. It is specifically for those living an unschooling lifestyle (radically unschooling with their kids); since you don't have kids, I am guessing it wouldn't be for you! But in looking up that group (I'm not a member) I *did* remember that several couples who are members have been to a Retrouvaille weekend, and they have all said it changed their lives. They gained MUCH more clarity about their relationship. It is a Christian-based program, but my understanding is they don't push anything on you. Their focus is to "save" marriages, but a few friends got to the place they needed to go forward with separation.

Hmmm... here's the link anyway to the Peaceful Partnerships group, I'm really feeling a strong urge to pass that on to you. You might check with the owner and see if they'll let you "lurk" on the list, or be a full member.

Having been separated from my husband - but not divorced - for quite a while now, I'm relating to a lot of what you're going through.