Couples should tolerate 'infidelity', allow open relationships

[ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by Breakaway

So if your husband decided to take you out to dinner one day, according to your logic, that would be the same as pointing the "trigger" at you because there's a chance someone could run into your car and kill you. There could also be food poisoning in the restaurant that could kill you. Statistically low, but as you said, it would still be wrong for him to point the trigger at you. So if he really loved you, he would never take you out anywhere, and would spend all the money on building a security system in the house. For example if he spent money on a TV set, it should have been spent on upgrading the security system or else he is basically pointing a trigger at you.

From reading the replies of the people who are saying infedelity is wrong, it's obvious that you are all just trying to rationalize why you don't like it logically, when it has nothing to do with it. Let's say we are living in a world where every single STD is easily curable. Would you then be okay for your spouse to nail someone else? I doubt it. This has nothing to do with STD's, it has to do with irrational thoughts.

Wrong. The risks I choose to take with MY life are the risks I choose to take with MY life. When he cheated, HE took a risk with my life without my consent. The fact there are risks in life doesn't give you the right to increase the risks in someone elses life. Take all the risks you want with your own life.

Yes, infidelity is wrong. First, if you took a vow not to, you're a liar. Second, you take risks with someone elses life without their consent. Third, it's a hurtful thing to do because that person just might have believed you when you spoke that vow. You have to be pretty self absorbed and selfish to lie, take risks with someone elses life and hurt them for an orgasm.

Did you read the post about the mom who died of AIDS because of her husband's affair? Do you really think any one of us has the right to risk that for another person? That is WRONG. Period. If you want to sleep around, then you need to tell your partner BEFORE you do so she can decide whether or not she wants to keep sleeping with you. If I'd known my husband had slept with her during our separation, I never would have agreed to a reconciliation. He had no right to take that risk with my life and showed contempt for me in doing so. Just like my ex fiance did when he passed that infection to me. There is, absolutely, no reason I should tolerate someone playing Russian roulette with my life like that. If I choose to take risks, that's my business but no one else has the right to increase the risks for me. It's just as wrong for a man to take the risk of spreading a disease to his wife as it is for me to get behind the wheel of a car drunk and take chances with other people's lives.

By your logic, people should be able to speed and drive drunk because there are risks in life anyway so who cares if they increase the risks for everone else on the road. All that matters it that they get their jollies. And you think I'M justifying?

[Breakaway]

I think you're missing the entire point of this thread. You say "it's a hurtful thing to do because that person just might have believed you when you spoke that vow". You are behaving the way that the original poster is talking about. Why exactly is it hurtful? Because, according to the OP, you are jealous and posessive.

If I tell you that I have really short hair, but in reality I don't, have I just "hurt" you? Lying isn't what is hurting you, it's the brainwashing that society has given you about being territorial about relationships that has caused it.

If you have a good friend who had coffee with someone you didn't know today, would you consider your friend a bad person for befriending more than one person?

Anyway, are you Christian?

[ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by Breakaway

I think you're missing the entire point of this thread. You say "it's a hurtful thing to do because that person just might have believed you when you spoke that vow". You are behaving the way that the original poster is talking about. Why exactly is it hurtful? Because, according to the OP, you are jealous and posessive.

If I tell you that I have really short hair, but in reality I don't, have I just "hurt" you? Lying isn't what is hurting you, it's the brainwashing that society has given you about being territorial about relationships that has caused it.

If you have a good friend who had coffee with someone you didn't know today, would you consider your friend a bad person for befriending more than one person?

Anyway, are you Christian?

Having someone you trust take risks with your life and your lifestyle. Play a game of what if. What happens to my life if the condom breaks and he fathers a child by someone else? What if he contracts AIDS and our kids end up orphans?

I came into my marriage believing that I would not face risks like STD's or writing a child support check to some other woman's child because of a vow. A vow he chose to break. Yes, that's hurtful. I thought I mattered to him but he lied.

Friends and spouses are different things. They don't compare. There is no other relationship that does. My husband and I took a vow pledging ourselves only to each other. Eliminating all risk of issues that arise when you sleep around. Only he lied. I'm supposed to feel good about that? I'm supposed to say it's ok you played Russian roulette with my life for an orgasm? I'm supposed to feel good about knowing I mean that little to him. I think not.

Friendships are casual relationships that don't involve sex or any of the risk having sex carries. There is no pledge to have only one friend. There is no need to because there is no risk in multiple friends. There is risk in mutiple partners and when you're betraying a partner you pledged yourself to and gambling with their life, you are declaring that they mean less than nothing to you. Yes, that is a hurtful thing if you thought they cared.

My husband actually had me believing he cared about me and our family when we reconciled. Then I found out he didn't have the decency to tell me he'd slept with someone else during out separation (I would not have reconciled had I known). He went from her bed to mine in less than two weeks. No HIV test no nothing. Just fire that pistol in a game of Russian roulette with my life. Nice guy. And yes, that is hurtful. Finding out you mean that little to someone you thought cared is.

Yes, I am Christian. Why do you ask? Being Christian does not require me to tolerate being cheated on.

[dyhppy]

haven't read the whole thread, but the OP is semi enlightened, imo.

i think cheating mostly happens because people feel trapped and that cheating is taboo. making it accepted and ok, even tolerated by your partner takes away a lot of the appeal.

it takes an open minded partner, but i plan to tell her that while i dig being with one woman, im not foolish enough to think that she will only think about being with me. and that if she wants to "play" with someone else, just lemme know ahead of time. do i sound nuts?

[Tigerlilly]

Originally Posted by Breakaway

If you have a good friend who had coffee with someone you didn't know today, would you consider your friend a bad person for befriending more than one person?

"Sex" = "coffee"?

or

"Having coffee with someone" = "having unprotected sex with stranger"?

Interesting.

If you look at a relationship as an agreement between two people to be together under certain conditions, I think it's safe to say that in the western hemisphere the majority of people silently expect to be living in a monogamous relationship if nothing else is discussed between partners.

If you secretly break that agreement you're the embodiment of nothing more than a good old fashioned fraud.

There's nothing free-spirited or admirable about being a fraud, and it has nothing to do with free love nor open relationships. If you root for free love do so openly, living your life authentically.

If you go sleeping around behind your partner's back, you do so cause you know he'd not like that and would possibly leave you. So you trick your partner into staying with you, and in doing so you're acting selfishly, from cowardice and a belief of scarcity.

You don't hold your head high and say outright this is what I want, take it or leave it, you're just being a sneak. And saying, oh, but it's possessive and selfish of my partner not to allow me what I desire, so I'm perfectly right to trick him, I find that has nothing to do with love, respect or anything I consider a just way of living.

Why do you think there's a crime called "fraud" if not to protect the right of everyone to make his own free choices based on the facts at hand?

[ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by Tigerlilly

"Sex" = "coffee"?

or

"Having coffee with someone" = "having unprotected sex with stranger"?

Interesting.

If you look at a relationship as an agreement between two people to be together under certain conditions, I think it's safe to say that in the western hemisphere the majority of people silently expect to be living in a monogamous relationship if nothing else is discussed between partners.

If you secretly break that agreement you're the embodiment of nothing more than a good old fashioned fraud.

There's nothing free-spirited or admirable about being a fraud, and it has nothing to do with free love nor open relationships. If you root for free love do so openly, living your life authentically.

If you go sleeping around behind your partner's back, you do so cause you know he'd not like that and would possibly leave you. So you trick your partner into staying with you, and in doing so you're acting selfishly, from cowardice and a belief of scarcity.

You don't hold your head high and say outright this is what I want, take it or leave it, you're just being a sneak. And saying, oh, but it's possessive and selfish of my partner not to allow me what I desire, so I'm perfectly right to trick him, I find that has nothing to do with love, respect or anything I consider a just way of living.

Why do you think there's a crime called "fraud" if not to protect the right of everyone to make his own free choices based on the facts at hand?

Well said.

I don't get this analogy either. There is such a difference between having coffee with a friend and exchanging bodily fluids I just can't put them in the same category.

You are so right in that it is selfish to not allow your partner what they want if that happens to be a monogomous relationship you committed to. To call the partner that wants monogomy selfish for expecting you to keep your vow and not see your own selfishness in denying them what they want while claiming you should get what you want is just silly.

[Angela]

Ivorytickler, do you want to have a good relationship now with the father of your children, despite the events of the past? Or do you prefer to maintain feeling bad about him for awhile?

[ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by Angela

Ivorytickler, do you want to have a good relationship now with the father of your children, despite the events of the past? Or do you prefer to maintain feeling bad about him for awhile?

My life is not up for debate here and if it were, I've read enough of your posts to not want to apply your theories to my life.

Thanks but, no thanks.

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by ivorytickler

My life is not up for debate here and if it were, I've read enough of your posts to not want to apply your theories to my life.

Thanks but, no thanks.

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

Okay, bad feelings it is.

I think that's one reason that our society's habitual view of what it means when one partner has sex with someone other than their partner just doesn't work well. The ordinary view supports people in feeling bad -- resentful, angry, bitter, separate, wronged.

I don't condone breaking promises. Keeping your word, maintaining your integrity especially with your partner, is really important. And I don't condone behaving in a way that puts your partner's well-being at risk, either. What I do condone is: granting people the freedom to be exactly as they are and exactly as they are not -- because they are going to be that anyway, whether or not you grant them the freedom! Being accepting, and being freedom, is for YOU, not for them. It's a great way of being if you want to be in love with your life, and if you want to generate love, peace, and joy for yourself and for your kids. For everyone, really.

Sure, it can hurt when someone breaks a promise to you, and it can have big repercussions in your life, like STDs and little half-siblings for your own kids. It can hurt a lot. And. What is the source of joy, satisfaction and fulfillment in your life? If it's not you, then you are utterly powerless (well, you think you are, anyway

I think that the way our society has trained us to think about sexual fidelity and infidelity is a great example of the wonderful illusion we create of our own powerlessness. Which is fabulous, really, because it gives us a huge opportunity to expand into who we really are: infinite power.

You don't have to, though.

p.s... this post is not specifically aimed at you, Ivorytickler. I'm using "you" here in the generic form, like "one."

[ivorytickler]

Angela,

I made it quite clear I don't care to have you debating my life. What part of your advice is not welcome did you not understand?

I request you honor my wish to not debate my life. I'm fully aware of your opinions and I disagree with them. We've done this before and there is no need to do it again.

Thank you.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by ivorytickler

Angela,

I made it quite clear I don't care to have you debating my life. What part of your advice is not welcome did you not understand?

I request you honor my wish to not debate my life. I'm fully aware of your opinions and I disagree with them. We've done this before and there is no need to do it again.

Thank you.

Hi, Ivorytickler. I have edited my most because it wasn't clear that I was not referring to you personally when I said "you." (except for my first line, in which I am interpreting your particular answer.) By "you" in the post I mean "one" -- just how I think it is for people around society's mandates regarding fidelity and infidelity. My last post was not meant as "advice" for you. I'm not debating your life, and if I were to that, I would be on the "pro" side, not the "con."

Sorry for the miscommunication.

[ivorytickler]

Um, yeah. Maybe you should edit out the quote of my post. It kind if gives hte impression that's what you're responding to.

[Daffy Duck]

It's all about honesty.

If you and I make an honest agreement to stay faithful, then we should keep to it. If one or both of us are not going to be faithful, then we should not make such promises.

Someone mentioned pornography. Looking at porn, while not recommended, is not the same thing as cheating on someone. Just like thinking about suicide and actually killing yourself are two very different things.

I'm allowed to choose a closed or open relationship. So is my partner. If we both choose to be exclusive, then it should remain that way. It's a choice we have to continue making every second. If she changes her mind, then I have the option to end our relationship. Well, I always have that option, but if she holds up her end of the agreement, I'll likely want to hold up mine. I'd be too happy with our relationship to think otherwise. Simple as that.

[Daffy Duck]

Originally Posted by dyhppy

and that if she wants to "play" with someone else, just lemme know ahead of time. do i sound nuts?

You're free to play the game that way if you want. It doesn't make you nuts. You're playing honestly.

Just don't expect all of us to play that game, of course. I also wouldn't try to imply that your version of the game is somehow better because it helps you with "who we really are" or "infinite power." Personally, I think being able to stay true to a commitment is pretty powerful. So powerful, in fact, that many people can't do it. They're not powerful enough. Their sexual hormones control them, like hunger controls a wild dog.

But that's just me and my morality.

Originally Posted by Angela

Especially the fantasizing part. If humans were naturally monogamous, why would we be so prone to thinking about boning others? Wouldn't that have evolved right out of us?

I think most people have had thoughts of killing and hurting each other before. So should we naturally kill each other? Is that "who we really are?" Your argument doesn't seem logical to me. I think you're making more out of a fantasy that what it really is. My friend once had a dream that he had sex with a giraffe. Should he be having sex with giraffes?

Originally Posted by Breakaway

I don't think it has to be agreed upon. When you make a new friend do you say, "hey, don't talk to other people, you can only be my friend, and I don't want you making any new friends. It's natural to only have 1."

There's a difference between friends and a mutual relationship. Maybe not in your mind, but most of us choose to make that distinction, and we're happy with it. You can call us irrational thinkers, but keep in mind that we'd think the same of you.

Interesting that you say it doesn't have to be agreed upon. I hope you would at least be honest with your intentions with your partner.

Originally Posted by Breakaway

Anyway, are you Christian?

Are you a New Age Hippie? (Btw, I'm not Christian, and I know your question wasn't to me)

The term "brainwash" is interesting. People often use it when they disagree with what you think. "Oh, you disagree with me, so you must have been brainwashed by society." Yeah, whatever. Maybe something brainwashed you? Or better yet, maybe we should avoid the word "brainwash" to begin with.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by ivorytickler

Um, yeah. Maybe you should edit out the quote of my post. It kind if gives hte impression that's what you're responding to.

Well, no, my comments were inspired by what you said in your post, although they're not limited to or aimed at you personally. (again, except for my first line, which was an interpretation of your response to me.)

What I mean is, whether we want to feel good or bad in relationships we have the power to generate it all on our own, regardless of the behavior of another person. If we are committed to feeling good on purpose, then our feeling good does not have to be altered by our partner's having sex with another person, or any other behavior we don't like. It might be shaken a little, sure, and sometimes it's just time to feel bad for awhile and wallow in the hurt. Big growth can be available out of that!

I think a lot of women, including myself, have experienced pain similar to yours, Ivorytickler. It hurts, that's for sure! And when we're in the middle of feeling bad, I think it's really easy to forget that we have the power to access our own joy. I'm not saying we *should* access our own joy; I'm just saying it's within our power, and I am the little shoulder gremlin who is here to say that. As I mentioned, feeling bad has its own rewards.

The topic of fidelity and infidelity is a really great area in which we we can expand into our own amazing power to live a life we love.

okay, this "we" stuff is awkward -- I'm switching back to the generic "you" from now on!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

I think most people have had thoughts of killing and hurting each other before. So should we naturally kill each other? Is that "who we really are?" Your argument doesn't seem logical to me. I think you're making more out of a fantasy that what it really is.

I can't speak for everyone, but I suspect that most people have way more sexual fantasy than homicidal. I read somewhere that people have sexual thoughts hundreds of time per day, on average. Do you think people have that many homicidal or sadistic thoughts? I don't think so, but maybe you hang out with a different crowd.

So I wouldn't equate the two kinds of fantasies. I wouldn't say we're naturally inclined to murder each other -- maybe it is, I don't know -- but I would say that it's part of our nature to feel hurt by the actions of others. In my experience of people, though, the fantasy of having sex with someone other than your partner is much more prevalent and compelling than the fantasy of offing someone. There are exceptions of course, some of whom have spoken up here, but I suspect that most people, especially men, if they had their druthers, and if not stopped by the downsides like STDs or social disapproval or fear of abandonment or going to hell, would prefer it if we were free to make love with more than just one partner in our lifetime. And just because something is or is not "natural" or hardwired into us, that's not to say we are supposed to just go with it and not make choices that are contrary to our "nature." I'm not in favor of rampant murder, mayhem, or even promiscuity, believe it or not.

I may be wrong and I may just be projecting. But it's very difficult for me to see any "natural" monogamy that is hardwired into humans as a species.

p.s..re your edit: a dream about having sex with a giraffe is not a sexual urge or fantasy, fun as it sounds.

[Playlife]

Originally Posted by Angela

I think a lot of women, including myself, have experienced pain similar to yours, Ivorytickler.

And men haven't? Like it's only men who cheat in relationships and bring STDs to the table(uh, oh). But oh, forgot, men cheat to get cheap thrills, women cheat because they need attention.

...

[Playlife]

Originally Posted by Angela

There are exceptions of course, some of whom have spoken up here, but I suspect that most people, especially men, if they had their druthers, and if not stopped by the downsides like STDs or social disapproval or fear of abandonment or going to hell, would prefer it if we were free to make love with more than just one partner in our lifetime.

Why do you need to single out men specifically?

[Daffy Duck]

Originally Posted by Angela