Men speak

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

I was at the grocery store yesterday and picked up O magazine. I usually find some interesting stuff in it and this month was no exception. Due to the continual man/woman threads we have going on around here, I thought it might be interesting to discuss the articles written by men for O:

What Men Think — David Granger, George Saunders and More Male Writers in O, The Oprah Magazine

The website doesn't have all of the articles that appeared in the magazine. In particular there was one about how kids kind of displace dads that was really interesting. I'd definitely check those out too if you have the opportunity to pick up the magazine.

[Dannyboy1]

The part about us having hostile reactions to any challenge is kind of true, but hopefully worked out before we turn 35 or so.

I thought it was a good answer when it said the only time we talk seriously is about our failures. Although, we are serious with important projects.

Yes we hate being told what to do.

I disagree that we like arguing with women. I personally dislike it because, somehow, I always lose, especially if I win!

Wow! The "What Men aren't Telling Us" article is absolutely dead on! Everything is so true! Women, READ THIS ARTICLE! What Men Aren't Telling Women by Chris Abani The one thing I would add about the women's confidence issue is, if we are "with" you, don't doubt we love you. We are attracted to you the most when you don't question yourself and just act confident and playful.

[m4xx]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

I disagree that we like arguing with women. I personally dislike it because, somehow, I always lose, especially if I win!

hahaha, so true

I hate arguing, too. and when I do, I so hope I am wrong. I would rather just run away.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

I disagree that we like arguing with women. I personally dislike it because, somehow, I always lose, especially if I win!

Originally Posted by m4xx

I hate arguing, too. and when I do, I so hope I am wrong. I would rather just run away.

Hmmm, would you guys like to elaborate on those statements? Why do you lose especially if you win? Why do you hope you are wrong?

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

The "What Men aren't Telling Us" article is absolutely dead on!

I liked that one the best out of the ones presented on the website. I found that guy to be really insightful. Something in his tone also made him seem open and kind...not sure why.

[madgeylou]

oh thank you so much for posting the chris abani piece!

he is an amazing human being --

The Web Site of Chris Abani
TED | Speakers | Chris Abani

[m4xx]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

Hmmm, would you guys like to elaborate on those statements? Why do you lose especially if you win? Why do you hope you are wrong?

well, some women I know feel bad when they are wrong. stupid, inferior, inadequate, etc...
while I have experienced women being rather cheerful when they have been right.
and I am rather wrong than having hurt someones feelings or something.

that's only my personal experience though!! I don't assume all women would make me see it that way hehe.

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

Hmmm, would you guys like to elaborate on those statements? Why do you lose especially if you win? Why do you hope you are wrong?



I liked that one the best out of the ones presented on the website. I found that guy to be really insightful. Something in his tone also made him seem open and kind...not sure why.

Women are better debaters. I'm not sure why. Maybe it has something to do with men being the hunters and women the prey. In other words, a woman has what a man wants, so he's at a disadvantage somewhat. That's just a guess. It could be we don't like arguing as much so we're trying to quickly get through it... When I said "especially if I win".... If I actually win, I'm usually told that I went too far in proving my point... I was insensitive in how I said it or I was too loud or anything the woman can think of. Bottom line, (take this with a grain of salt) I've found that woman hate losing an argument and they let you know it for a long time.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Thanks for taking the time to reply guys. I asked because my bf has said he hates arguing with me 1) because he just doesn't like to see us argue...he wants everything to just be okay and 2) because he says I am better at it than him so he can't win for trying.

Danny, I can completely see what you mean with the comment "If I actually win, I'm usually told that I went too far in proving my point... I was insensitive in how I said it or I was too loud or anything the woman can think of." I often feel that when my bf is trying to make his point he goes too far and says some things that are just not nice. I wonder if it's a matter of the feeling of competition guys have or maybe even related to how you might argue with other guys -- lots of "insults" and exaggerated statements flying around?

I used to hate losing an argument. I especially hate feeling like I've not been heard or understood -- or worst of all, not listened to in the first place. But I don't drag it out anymore. I've started to do something I learned from Byron Katie and that is to take what someone says to you and look for the truth in it.

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

Thanks for taking the time to reply guys. I asked because my bf has said he hates arguing with me 1) because he just doesn't like to see us argue...he wants everything to just be okay and 2) because he says I am better at it than him so he can't win for trying.

Danny, I can completely see what you mean with the comment "If I actually win, I'm usually told that I went too far in proving my point... I was insensitive in how I said it or I was too loud or anything the woman can think of." I often feel that when my bf is trying to make his point he goes too far and says some things that are just not nice. I wonder if it's a matter of the feeling of competition guys have or maybe even related to how you might argue with other guys -- lots of "insults" and exaggerated statements flying around?

I used to hate losing an argument. I especially hate feeling like I've not been heard or understood -- or worst of all, not listened to in the first place. But I don't drag it out anymore. I've started to do something I learned from Byron Katie and that is to take what someone says to you and look for the truth in it.

But, when I said win, I meant that the woman realized I was right. Even then, I'm in the doghouse.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

But, when I said win, I meant that the woman realized I was right. Even then, I'm in the doghouse.

Well, that's just ridiculous.

ETA: It seems I didn't "completely see what you meant with that comment." Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[m4xx]

oh yes, I think I go too far and get loud as well... it works perfectly for men though. lol

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

But, when I said win, I meant that the woman realized I was right. Even then, I'm in the doghouse.

I can's speak for anyone else, but for me, an argument is a discussion about a problem and we are trying to find a solution. That's very logical and women are not logical. (Note: I didn't say the are not intelligent, just not logical). So I could be right, but that doesn't mean anything.

[This is my experience, btw] Women are a lot more sensitive to their environment (especially their bf or husband) and an argument can invoke some bad feelings. I've learned to set the emotional tone of a situation and let go of being right. Ok, sometimes I remember and sometimes I don't.

Like I could be in the middle of some serious discussion with my girl and bring up something totally unrelated that invokes a different emotion. She won't mind at all. In fact, she'd be relieved. If someone did that to me, I'd go nuts.

[niche]

Originally Posted by mercuryrising

I can's speak for anyone else, but for me, an argument is a discussion about a problem and we are trying to find a solution. That's very logical and women are not logical. (Note: I didn't say the are not intelligent, just not logical). So I could be right, but that doesn't mean anything.

Like I could be in the middle of some serious discussion with my girl and bring up something totally unrelated that invokes a different emotion. She won't mind at all. In fact, she'd be relieved. If someone did that to me, I'd go nuts.

I think this is ironic in my situation. My bf tells me I'm too logical. He states that I argue in outline form. I didn't understand for awhile what he meant. Then I actually recorded one of our arguments. I do argue in outline form. And I think this is why I win a lot. lol

As for the the last paragraph, I bring up new topics which evoke new emotions in mid conversation a lot. It drives my bf nuts as well. I'll have to try to stop doing that. My mind just wanders a lot.

[robc]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

Hmmm, would you guys like to elaborate on those statements? Why do you lose especially if you win? Why do you hope you are wrong?

Well I read it somewhere once that men tend to argue with logic (male logic at any rate) in mind while women tend to argue with more emotion.
Someone who is arguing any given subject with just logic with someone who is arguing with them mostly with emotion can never win an argument.

How can logic persuade emotion in an argument? You can be right all you want even if logic proves you are correct, when emotion is involved, logic can't win, emotion doesn't see logic, emotion can only see feelings and feelings aren't usually dictated by logic.

The easiest way for man to stop arguing with a woman is stop feeding into it, maybe I may be limited in my experiences but I've never seen any man successfully argue a point across with an emotional woman - it never works and it doesn't matter if he is right or not because even if he is using logic, his logic blinds him to a certain degree because the woman he is arguing with is being guided by her emotions. Probably doesn't make sense the way I just wrote this but hopefully someone can read this and kind of make sense of it.

In the end when a man argues with his better half, he has to take into account that say by chance he is probably 90% correct in his view or argument but he never sees that even if he is right, she could possibly be right also. (It works both ways, this is just an example) What if she is right by only 5 or 10% (again, weird to use numbers but that's how this is coming out), she is still right in her perception, if a man is able to see this and agree that she can be right too instead of everyone having a view point that their is only 1 right person and 1 wrong person in an argument.

One positive thing about arguing though although most won't admit it, it shows some type of passion in the relationship. If you didn't care about the person at all, you wouldn't bother arguing so strongly with that person.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

The bf hates that I remember everything and can out-logic his logic, even though I am very emotional.

To me, both sides are right and true -- to themselves. If you can learn to look at it from the other person's pov, and truly make an effort to understand where they are coming from, I think there has to be no "winner" or "loser." I've been experimenting with this lately. I've just been holding my normal reaction and thinking about what he's really saying. I say, "you're right." Because he is. From his perspective, he sees things a certain way. It's true for him. And he feels it. His position means something to him.

When I do this, I get a stunned silence followed by "I can see your point too." At which point we go on to discuss it and come up with a solution.

Even though we are coming from very different places, when we seek to just understand the other person, instead of trying to get them to understand us, we open up a world where men and women can actually understand each other. And then the fight is over. It's all collaboration.