Ladder Theory -- an accurate way to explain male/female relationships?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Fullcrum

ONS - definitely not.

Girlfriends - It can, but I've heard of women leaving millionaires to live with poorer boyfriends because they give them a better experience emotionally.

I think that's what I'm getting at.

That makes sense. I can defintely see how if everything about a guy is wonderful, he wouldn't need money. I guess it's just that most of the guys I know who don't have jobs/money haven't cultivated the other things that would make them desirable either. They do still get women, actually, only the women they get are kind of messed up as well.

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by Fullcrum

ONS - definitely not.

Girlfriends - It can, but I've heard of women leaving millionaires to live with poorer boyfriends because they give them a better experience emotionally.

I think that's what I'm getting at.

But, not without the alimony, right?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

But, not without the alimony, right?

Ok, I have to give it to you. That was a good one.

[Fullcrum]

Haha, awesome.

[robc]

But seriously, maybe I'm a genetic abnormality or something but I think about $ex on a fairly frequent basis and lately I've been lucky enough to experience it fairly frequently and my desire hasn't been diminished.

I think it's normal for a guy to be thinking about it frequently - that's just me, I may be different from most guys.

My own point of view on what women are attracted to...
- your personality helps, if you're an a_ _ hole, you aren't going to keep your girlfriend for very long
- being confident in yourself, showing it, that's very attractive to women
- I don't think you have to be a Brad Pitt look alike to be attractive to women
- sense of humor, definitely attractive to women, women like it when a man makes them laugh - back to the personality thing
- being ambitious in some form or fashion helps alot
- I think mysterious in some way (not being a completely open book that everyone knows every detail of your life) is attractive to women
- showing leadership characteristics is attractive to women, having a plan, say you're going out with a women and she asks what you would want to do, actually saying that you want to go out for coffee, or go out for a steak or go out to see a movie, etc. instead of saying "doesn't matter to me" - I think that makes a difference to women, it shows that things do matter to you
- not being too cocky but not being insecure and shy either, women aren't attracted to shy & insecure (maybe a few are but for the most part, it isn't attractive)
- I don't think you have to be rich to be attractive
- good looks help but if you have alot of these other qualities, I think alot of women will be attracted to you regardless, women tend to look deeper than men do (I can speak for myself although I'm sure it's true of other men, I think we look at physical beauty first & foremost - it's probably a subconscious thing)

- although I say good looks aren't a determining factor of attractiveness overall to women, if you show that you give a $h_t about your appearance, I think that's attractive to women - if you don't dress like a slob, get a haircut every 3-6 months, bathe regularly and your clothes are relatively clean (I'm laughing as I'm writing all of this), I think women find this attractive, men who take care of their appearance - I've personally noticed that women have noticed this about me and I can see that they look at me "differently", in a weird sort of way, you can almost sense their attraction toward you (kind of hard to explain with the written word I'm sure)

Does any of this make sense? (I know I'm not the easiest person to understand especially in alot of my long winded posts)

And as I finish writing this post, I'm reminded that I'm still thinking about $ex, I wouldn't say it's constant, I just tend to think about it 90 seconds of every minute

LOL!

[fitx3]

Robc, I think you are very normal. I truly believe that men have a basic drive that has been passed down for many, many years that trails back to the cave man days. Man must pass out his seed to every possible female to keep the clan growing and strong. I think if we all had a normal childhood, meaning that our parents didn't screw us up somehow (there are many variables), we would all have a healthy sex drive for the most part.

I would say that ultimately when it comes to the men that women are attracted to, most are attracted to something in that man that makes them feel secure. This is all different depending on what makes her feel secure. For example, a woman who grew up in poor conditions with a father who could not provide security to his family yet still maintained good values may likely be attracted to a hard working man with a steady income. The woman who grew up in poor conditions with a nagging mother who continuously needed more and more may grow up to attract a rich but unscrupulous man. A woman who grew up in a very controlling family environment may be attracted to the outlaw biker. I'm sure you get my point. It all goes back to our childhood. But with that said, there is one thing for sure and that is ALL women like strength. A woman who feels secure at the side of an unsightly and frail rich man will always check out the financially struggling fitness buff, whether she's aware of it or not. This is most likely to happen during her ovulation cycle. Us women too have carried a lot back with us from the days of the cave!

[Rockchick26]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

I agree about the men wanting only sex is wrong. That's a juvenile way to think and not true with a real man. I do believe the money thing, though. When I was totally broke, I had women who dated me because they liked me, but eventually, they would decide I wasn't going to be Donald Trump and changed their mind. Women want security and they think that if a guy has no money, he's too immature to be marriage material.

Well that is still a stereotype because not all women are into money. i wouldnt dump a guy just cuz he worked at a gas station or fast food place. In fact,i almost got engaged to my ex boyfriend who at the time quit his $14 an hour job and moved back in with his parents. A person can ALWAYS get a job and make more money,but their personality usually doesnt change. So i stick with what really matters.

[Rockchick26]

Originally Posted by fitx3

Robc, I think you are very normal. I truly believe that men have a basic drive that has been passed down for many, many years that trails back to the cave man days. Man must pass out his seed to every possible female to keep the clan growing and strong. I think if we all had a normal childhood, meaning that our parents didn't screw us up somehow (there are many variables), we would all have a healthy sex drive for the most part.

I would say that ultimately when it comes to the men that women are attracted to, most are attracted to something in that man that makes them feel secure. This is all different depending on what makes her feel secure. For example, a woman who grew up in poor conditions with a father who could not provide security to his family yet still maintained good values may likely be attracted to a hard working man with a steady income. The woman who grew up in poor conditions with a nagging mother who continuously needed more and more may grow up to attract a rich but unscrupulous man. A woman who grew up in a very controlling family environment may be attracted to the outlaw biker. I'm sure you get my point. It all goes back to our childhood. But with that said, there is one thing for sure and that is ALL women like strength. A woman who feels secure at the side of an unsightly and frail rich man will always check out the financially struggling fitness buff, whether she's aware of it or not. This is most likely to happen during her ovulation cycle. Us women too have carried a lot back with us from the days of the cave!

The more i read on this thread the more i think i am really abnormal LOL First,regarding this post about security,i couldn't care less about that,cuz to me,being in a relationship isnt about security,its about love. Also,regarding RobC's post...i also LOVE shy insecure guys!! Guys who are confident come off as cocky to me,arrogant. I love it when a guy is shy and insecure,when he acts like he really wants me to like him but he is afraid i dont

[fitx3]

But doesn't the feeling of being in love with a man who is insecure make you feel secure? Like I said, it's different for everyone. That's why attractiveness can not be categorized the same way by all women. I believe we are attracted to the things that add up to what makes us feel secure.

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by Rockchick26

Well that is still a stereotype because not all women are into money. i wouldnt dump a guy just cuz he worked at a gas station or fast food place. In fact,i almost got engaged to my ex boyfriend who at the time quit his $14 an hour job and moved back in with his parents. A person can ALWAYS get a job and make more money,but their personality usually doesnt change. So i stick with what really matters.

How old are you? You sound young because you have a young woman's attitude about it. Women in their 30's think differently. I guarantee it.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

How old are you? You sound young because you have a young woman's attitude about it. Women in their 30's think differently. I guarantee it.

Yeah. Stay up on the night before your 30th birthday. One second you'll be thinking one way, and then Boom! you'll think you were crazy to think of it any other way.

Tried and true. Countless scientists have totally wired lots of 29 year-old women up and read their thoughts as they turned 30. And then they showed them their latest bank statement and had sex with them.

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Yeah. Stay up on the night before your 30th birthday. One second you'll be thinking one way, and then Boom! you'll think you were crazy to think of it any other way.

Tried and true. Countless scientists have totally wired lots of 29 year-old women up and read their thoughts as they turned 30. And then they showed them their latest bank statement and had sex with them.

As you get older and have more experience, you look back and wonder why you thought the way you did. If you can't admit that, it's your ego and it will only hurt you to defend your inexperience as opposed to learning something. Of course, you'll probably rebel now against what I just said, even though it's a fact that you'll be wiser in the future than you are now.

[Rockchick26]

Originally Posted by fitx3

But doesn't the feeling of being in love with a man who is insecure make you feel secure? Like I said, it's different for everyone. That's why attractiveness can not be categorized the same way by all women. I believe we are attracted to the things that add up to what makes us feel secure.

I dont get what people mean by secure,secure as in you know you arent alone? I dont need that feeling,i'm secure being alone. Or do you mean secure money wise? I dont need that either,since i make enough to take care of myself,and even if i didnt,it isnt a guy's responsibility to pay for me. And even if i was married,i am perfectly capable of taking care of myself money wise.

[Rockchick26]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

How old are you? You sound young because you have a young woman's attitude about it. Women in their 30's think differently. I guarantee it.

I'm gonna be 36 in August. I do have a young woman's attitude,i look,feel and act way younger than i am and i'm proud of that. So if me and you had made a bet on how old i was,you'd be owing me some money,big time! lol

[Rockchick26]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

As you get older and have more experience, you look back and wonder why you thought the way you did. If you can't admit that, it's your ego and it will only hurt you to defend your inexperience as opposed to learning something. Of course, you'll probably rebel now against what I just said, even though it's a fact that you'll be wiser in the future than you are now.

I know this wasnt aimed at me,but i have to say; teenagers have more experience than i do. I've only had one real boyfriend and done sexual things with only 2 people,one was him,and one was a one time thing,so,i dont call myself experienced at all when it comes to relationships or sex.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Rockchick26

I know this wasnt aimed at me,but i have to say; teenagers have more experience than i do. I've only had one real boyfriend and done sexual things with only 2 people,one was him,and one was a one time thing,so,i dont call myself experienced at all when it comes to relationships or sex.

I think that has a lot to do with it. I am almost 28, but I had my first kiss at 24! And my first boyfriend/sex at 25. There are a lot of people younger than me who have already dealt with all of the issues I'm just now experiencing.

Still, I think things happen for us at just the right time.

[robc]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

I think that has a lot to do with it. I am almost 28, but I had my first kiss at 24! And my first boyfriend/sex at 25. There are a lot of people younger than me who have already dealt with all of the issues I'm just now experiencing.

Still, I think things happen for us at just the right time.

That these things generally happen when they do for everyone, at the the right time for that specific person. It's not like there is a rule book that says your first kiss should be at XX age and you should have had sex by XX and married by XX.


Back to my original point though, do any of the ladies participating in this discussion want to go over my list and let me know which of my points on what women are attracted to in a man, which hold true and which don't? This is seriously interesting stuff! (I'm taking notes )

[robc]

Originally Posted by Rockchick26

I'm gonna be 36 in August. I do have a young woman's attitude,i look,feel and act way younger than i am and i'm proud of that. So if me and you had made a bet on how old i was,you'd be owing me some money,big time! lol

Rockchick26, I would have guessed you were around 26 by simply looking at your name and the number you put beside it.

Apparently I'm clueless

- it's all good, I'm sure women like to hear that they appear younger than they really are.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by robc

Back to my original point though, do any of the ladies participating in this discussion want to go over my list and let me know which of my points on what women are attracted to in a man, which hold true and which don't? This is seriously interesting stuff! (I'm taking notes )

I'll bite.

Originally Posted by robc

But seriously, maybe I'm a genetic abnormality or something but I think about $ex on a fairly frequent basis and lately I've been lucky enough to experience it fairly frequently and my desire hasn't been diminished.

I think about sex a lot as well which surprises a lot of people. Hey! Women (not all of course) want it too. So, I guess this means your recent foray back into the dating world is going well? You don't have to answer that of course. I am quite nosey.

Originally Posted by robc

My own point of view on what women are attracted to...
- your personality helps, if you're an a_ _ hole, you aren't going to keep your girlfriend for very long

Let's assume for the sake of argument that we are talking about a fairly well-adjusted woman since I know lots of ******* with long time girlfriends/wives. Yes, a nice personality is a good start.

Originally Posted by robc

- being confident in yourself, showing it, that's very attractive to women

Confidence in anyone is an attractive quality I believe. Yes, it does help if a man is confident in his own skin. However, arrogance and cockiness are not attractive to me. It has to be sincere.

Originally Posted by robc

- I don't think you have to be a Brad Pitt look alike to be attractive to women

Not at all. Everyone has their types, but at least for me, looks are fairly far down on the scale.

Originally Posted by robc

- sense of humor, definitely attractive to women, women like it when a man makes them laugh - back to the personality thing

Big one for me. If I can't laugh with you what's the point? In addition, if you take yourself too seriously I'm bound to get bored. Life is fun.

Originally Posted by robc

- being ambitious in some form or fashion helps alot

Hard-working (not necessarily in the sense of 60 hour weeks) and headed somewhere is a plus.

Originally Posted by robc

- I think mysterious in some way (not being a completely open book that everyone knows every detail of your life) is attractive to women

I know a lot of women who thrive on the mystery, but I prefer a more open type of person. Perhaps this is not what you mean, but I don't want to feel like there are things hidden from me. I'd like to feel that my partner feels comfortable sharing things with me. I want him to be my best friend. At first of course you don't need to bare all. I guess this would be after you've settled into a relationship.

Originally Posted by robc

- showing leadership characteristics is attractive to women, having a plan, say you're going out with a women and she asks what you would want to do, actually saying that you want to go out for coffee, or go out for a steak or go out to see a movie, etc. instead of saying "doesn't matter to me" - I think that makes a difference to women, it shows that things do matter to you

If you can lead without having to control then that's good in my book.

Originally Posted by robc

- not being too cocky but not being insecure and shy either, women aren't attracted to shy & insecure (maybe a few are but for the most part, it isn't attractive)

Shy is fine. Insecure is fine as long as you are aware of it and working on it. I am insecure enough for the both of us -- but working on it. Arrogance, cockiness and grandstanding over others/bravado are a little too machismo for me.

Originally Posted by robc

- I don't think you have to be rich to be attractive

Money isn't that important to me as long as you aren't terrible with it. You work, you pay your bills, you can contribute to the dating process (but don't have to pay every time) and if a relationship develops, you can contribute to the household. Gambling is no good. Huge amounts of consumer debt mean that we won't be combining incomes.

Originally Posted by robc

- good looks help but if you have alot of these other qualities, I think alot of women will be attracted to you regardless, women tend to look deeper than men do (I can speak for myself although I'm sure it's true of other men, I think we look at physical beauty first & foremost - it's probably a subconscious thing)

For me this is true. If you have so many good qualities why would I disqualify you because you don't look a certain way? Of course, some type of attraction must be there, but there is a chemistry that is deeper than looks.

Originally Posted by robc

- although I say good looks aren't a determining factor of attractiveness overall to women, if you show that you give a $h_t about your appearance, I think that's attractive to women - if you don't dress like a slob, get a haircut every 3-6 months, bathe regularly and your clothes are relatively clean (I'm laughing as I'm writing all of this), I think women find this attractive, men who take care of their appearance - I've personally noticed that women have noticed this about me and I can see that they look at me "differently", in a weird sort of way, you can almost sense their attraction toward you (kind of hard to explain with the written word I'm sure)

Being clean is very important. Style of dress doesn't matter much to me...I like certain styles, but it's in no way a big deal.

Overall I don't think there is a true complete set of criteria that every woman is attracted to. For me, there are so many factors, many of them unconscious, that draw you to a person. Integrity, humor and kindness, willingness to change and grow -- all quite important though.

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by Rockchick26

Well that is still a stereotype because not all women are into money. i wouldnt dump a guy just cuz he worked at a gas station or fast food place. In fact,i almost got engaged to my ex boyfriend who at the time quit his $14 an hour job and moved back in with his parents. A person can ALWAYS get a job and make more money,but their personality usually doesnt change. So i stick with what really matters.

Every time someone notes a trend or similarity, someone who doesn't like it yells out "Stereotype!" How can you really talk about women or men at all then? You can't. We're talking about similarities in women and men. Just because you don't do it doesn't mean most women are the same as you. Let's just keep the word stereotype out of this. Using it as a stop all because you disagree just stunts the conversation. Let's just say everything we're saying about men and women is a stereotype. Let's face it, if you say "Women are..." or "Men think..." you're always making a generalization. If you don't like stereotypes, it's impossible to have this conversation.

[Playlife]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

If you don't like stereotypes, it's impossible to have this conversation.

It's kinda pointless discussion anyway.

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by Playlife

It's kinda pointless discussion anyway.

But, isn't every "discussion" that way?

[fitx3]

Originally Posted by robc

Back to my original point though, do any of the ladies participating in this discussion want to go over my list and let me know which of my points on what women are attracted to in a man, which hold true and which don't? This is seriously interesting stuff! (I'm taking notes )

I think that everything you listed is true. Not necessarily in that order but true. This is what I find attractive in a man:

Physical-

*I list this first because it's the first thing we notice about the opposite sex.

1. I like to keep in good physical condition so I like to be with a man who keeps fit as well. He doesn't need to be a contestant of a bodybuilding competition but if he strength trains to fill out his shirt sleeves a bit, that's extra credit!

2. Oral hygiene is a must. I'm not even going to mention that he must take a shower everyday, that should be a given for goodness sakes! But a clean, healthy mouth and teeth is extremely important. I won't kiss you if you don't have nice teeth. There is no exception.

3. I like short hair lines on men. I find the neck really attractive.

4. Height. Please, don't be shorter than I am!

Social-

1. I agree....Do not be an a$$h***! Smile, have a positive outlook in life. If you show kindness, I see it as kindness and not you as a schmuck. If you have heart and I'm able to get a glimpse of that from time to time, I will melt.

2. Be comfortable in your skin.

3. Do NOT flirt with other women in front of me!

4. Do not let any person with a bad attitude take advantage of you and get away with it. Stand up for yourself. Wimpy men are an automatic turn off! "Kicked in the head straight off the ladder." Aaaaaahhhhhhhhh....

Professional-

1. Have a good work ethic and take pride in what you do.

2. The money is there because we intend it.

3. Love your profession and the rest falls into place naturally.


*Well, this is what I find attractive at a basic level. I don't think it would be in good taste to get into anything more than this, sexually speaking that is, but there are a lot of important issues there too. Would make an interesting topic though.

[Rockchick26]

Originally Posted by robc

Rockchick26, I would have guessed you were around 26 by simply looking at your name and the number you put beside it.

Apparently I'm clueless

- it's all good, I'm sure women like to hear that they appear younger than they really are.

Well i cant really have a number in my name that is my age,cuz then i'd have to keep changing it! lol The 26 is my birth date,August 26.

[Rockchick26]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

Every time someone notes a trend or similarity, someone who doesn't like it yells out "Stereotype!" How can you really talk about women or men at all then? You can't. We're talking about similarities in women and men. Just because you don't do it doesn't mean most women are the same as you. Let's just keep the word stereotype out of this. Using it as a stop all because you disagree just stunts the conversation. Let's just say everything we're saying about men and women is a stereotype. Let's face it, if you say "Women are..." or "Men think..." you're always making a generalization. If you don't like stereotypes, it's impossible to have this conversation.

Well its the same thing as if somebody says "Black people commit more murders!",i dont see the difference in that or "Women want rich men!"

[Angela]

Originally Posted by robc

Back to my original point though, do any of the ladies participating in this discussion want to go over my list and let me know which of my points on what women are attracted to in a man, which hold true and which don't? This is seriously interesting stuff! (I'm taking notes )

You left off one trait I find most attractive: being present.

I don't mean just being there, of course. The men I find most attractive are the ones that are the most present to me. The men who speak directly to me and listen generously to what I have to say. They dance in conversation with me -- talking with a man who is really present is lighthearted and fun, and it's also real connection. It's not like a guy has to try to be lighthearted, fun, or connected; it's that if his way of being is real presence, those things just tend to happen in a pheromonal encounter, without effort.

What counts a man out for me is when he is only half-listening, you can tell he's just thinking about what he's going to say next, or he speaks through a fog, or he looks off away from me while talking. Some younger men tend to do that, in my experience, because they think it looks cool. And as soon as they do, they are instantly eliminated from sexual contention.

Presence, baby. It gets women hot.

Presents, too.

[fitx3]

Originally Posted by Angela

You left off one trait I find most attractive: being present.

I don't mean just being there, of course. The men I find most attractive are the ones that are the most present to me. The men who speak directly to me and listen generously to what I have to say. They dance in conversation with me -- talking with a man who is really present is lighthearted and fun, and it's also real connection. It's not like a guy has to try to be lighthearted, fun, or connected; it's that if his way of being is real presence, those things just tend to happen in a pheromonal encounter, without effort.

What counts a man out for me is when he is only half-listening, you can tell he's just thinking about what he's going to say next, or he speaks through a fog, or he looks off away from me while talking. Some younger men tend to do that, in my experience, because they think it looks cool. And as soon as they do, they are instantly eliminated from sexual contention.

Presence, baby. It gets women hot.

Presents, too.

I concur!

Presents included.

[Spartan]

Not another clichéd, in depth analysis of the qualities women find attractive! Why is this subject so fascinating? Why so much scrutiny for men?

Are men that insecure they have to constantly deliberate over the qualities women find attractive? Are women that self-righteous they have to list every quality under the sun before they consider looks as being important? Do women enjoy scrutinizing men?

[Fullcrum]

I agree with the presence.

When you're not thinking ahead, it's definitely hot. I feel hotter, and so does the girl apparently.

[fitx3]

Originally Posted by Spartan

Do women enjoy scrutinizing men?

I guess I do!