does anyone believe in breaking up before cheating?

[Lazarus]

seriously, it feels like no one cares about reputation or dignity anymore =/ honestly i don't see a point in cheating

[yassy]

Well i did.... and have lived to regret it...

[Lazarus]

does people think about it as "i got to cheat" or what? =/ i know it's something not to be curious about, it's just that i want to understand what others think that makes them do it

[PianoManGidley]

I don't cheat--I'm openly polygamous, and my boyfriend and I share with each other news about anyone with whom we may want to have personal relations. We make sure to ask each other first before going ahead involving anyone else, and make sure to tell anyone we may be interested in that we're already in an open, polygamous relationship. This way, everyone's in the know.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Lazarus

seriously, it feels like no one cares about reputation or dignity anymore =/ honestly i don't see a point in cheating

Originally Posted by PianoManGidley

I don't cheat--I'm openly polygamous, and my boyfriend and I share with each other news about anyone with whom we may want to have personal relations. We make sure to ask each other first before going ahead involving anyone else, and make sure to tell anyone we may be interested in that we're already in an open, polygamous relationship. This way, everyone's in the know.

I feel like there two good ways to handle wanting to have sex with someone other than your partner. Either be in an open relationship or break up before getting jiggy with someone else.

[Tigerlilly]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

I feel like there two good ways to handle wanting to have sex with someone other than your partner. Either be in an open relationship or break up before getting jiggy with someone else.

Completely agree with those two ways of going about it, it's the only two honest ones.

[ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

I feel like there two good ways to handle wanting to have sex with someone other than your partner. Either be in an open relationship or break up before getting jiggy with someone else.

But what if you want to go back? This is what my husband did. Left, got involved with someone else and then wanted to come back. I can tell you from experience it hurts just as much as being cheated on. He just announced it before he did it. Is that supposed to make it hurt less?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by ivorytickler

But what if you want to go back? This is what my husband did. Left, got involved with someone else and then wanted to come back. I can tell you from experience it hurts just as much as being cheated on. He just announced it before he did it. Is that supposed to make it hurt less?

I am not saying it would hurt less -- I imagine it would hurt just as much as being cheated on in many cases. For me, if I am going to hurt like hell either way, I'd much rather it be with knowledge of what's going on than being duped and left in the dark. Would you have preferred he do it behind your back and you just never find out? That's valid, but I wouldn't want that.

As to whether or not you take him back, only you know if you can handle that. For me, it would be much easier to reconcile and move forward knowing I wasn't lied to or cheated on. The leaving still hurts, but at least you have honesty. That can be built on. I'm definitely not saying that means you should take him back. I just prefer painful honesty over painful lies and cheating.

[ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

I am not saying it would hurt less -- I imagine it would hurt just as much as being cheated on in many cases. For me, if I am going to hurt like hell either way, I'd much rather it be with knowledge of what's going on than being duped and left in the dark. Would you have preferred he do it behind your back and you just never find out? That's valid, but I wouldn't want that.

As to whether or not you take him back, only you know if you can handle that. For me, it would be much easier to reconcile and move forward knowing I wasn't lied to or cheated on. The leaving still hurts, but at least you have honesty. That can be built on. I'm definitely not saying that means you should take him back. I just prefer painful honesty over painful lies and cheating.

Honesty means he didn't care if he hurt me. If it had been an affair, at least he could say it was a mistake. This was no mistake. It was a deliberate.

I'm not saying being cheated on is ever good but I made a mistake goes down easier than I just decided to do this and really didn't care who I hurt.

[Angela]

You know, it might be worthwhile to look boldly at what you are creating with the whole line of thought of "cheating."

You have an agreement with your partner that you will remain sexually faithful to each other forever, until one of you dies. One of you breaks that agreement and has sex with someone else. Just like any broken agreement (it happens), what would be possible in your relationship, and in your life, if you let go of judgement? Calling it "cheating" is certainly a judgement. We have been profoundly trained to believe that "cheating" is just about the worst thing you could do to a person; you are terribly diminished and injured if your partner "cheats." This in my mind is a really powerful enforcement for being a victim and absolving yourself of 100% responsibility.

What if you were to actually take 100% responsibility for your own satisfaction and fulfillment, let go of judgement of your partner, and boldly look at who you are being that the partnership occurs for you as a source of suffering?

You might see that your partner is taking his own next right action, engaging in love with another person. You might see that your own clinging has created a space of no freedom for your partner, in which he's acting out. You might see that you yourself are not as committed as you pretend to be and he is a mirror for you. You might see that the agreement you made is unworkable or unreasonable. You might see that you married a chronic liar or manipulator (YOU married that person). You might see an avenue through which you can actually grow stronger as a couple.

In no way does anything that might come as a result of your partner having sex with another person diminish you. It hurts when your closest friend breaks a promise to you. And it probably reactivates your old pain -- fears and convictions that you are worthless or nothing or unlovable or in danger of being abandoned. But it does not affect Who You Are -- infinite joy and abundance. He might be cheating himself, but he's not cheating you in any real way. You are intact: whole, perfect, and complete.

What would be possible if you could let go of making your partner wrong and generate the values you want for yourself, your partnership, and your life?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by ivorytickler

Honesty means he didn't care if he hurt me. If it had been an affair, at least he could say it was a mistake. This was no mistake. It was a deliberate.

I'm not saying being cheated on is ever good but I made a mistake goes down easier than I just decided to do this and really didn't care who I hurt.

I really don't see this the same way. For me, lying and sneaking around is worse than flat out leaving. But, if it's not the same for you, then that is fine. I was only giving my opinion based on what I would prefer in that situation.

I also don't think that being honest necessarily means he didn't care. To me it would mean he cared enough not to cheat on you, lie and sneak around. That's from my perspective not being in the relationship or knowing either of you personally. How is cheating any less deliberate than leaving because you want to be with someone else? In both cases, you decide to do something that you know is going to hurt the other person. Do you really think that if he had cheated behind your back it was an "accident" but that because he left it was on purpose? I don't see it that way. I see it as still deliberate but also dishonest when you cheat. That just adds bad upon bad in my mind.

But, I really have no intention of telling you how you should feel. You are entitled to feel however you do. I just have a higher regard for honesty that anything else. I prefer it even when it's painful. Your personal experience and different views on this are bound to bring out some pain, and I don't want to add to that. I just have the perspective of preferring to know the truth. I see the up-front honesty as a caring gesture while to you it feels very hurtful.

Aside from all of this, I am really sorry you went through that.

Oh, and what Angela said...

[Tigerlilly]

Originally Posted by ivorytickler

But what if you want to go back? This is what my husband did. Left, got involved with someone else and then wanted to come back. I can tell you from experience it hurts just as much as being cheated on. He just announced it before he did it. Is that supposed to make it hurt less?

No of course, it doesn't say that breaking up before you have sex with another hurts less.

But look at it this way, people are absolutely free to be with whomever they want to be. Just cause you're together with someone doesn't mean you are entitled to them in any sort of way. Even a marriage certificate is not a certificate of ownership of another human being - even though I guess lots of people think of it as such.

What you are entitled to though while you're together is honesty. Your partner is free to do whatever he wants to do, but if any of it concerns you, you have a right to know. If your partner knows you want a monogamous relationship and decides to have sex with another, you're entitled to know about that.

If he doesn't tell you cause he wants to remain together with you and fears you could leave or something, he's withholding vital information from you. He's betraying the trust you place in him to be honest. That's a killer, far more than a bit of sex on the side could ever be. He disrespects your right to make your own choice.

That's not to say you're to take him back after he decided to break up, but at least he's not betrayed you. He made a choice and for him it turned out to be the wrong one, the choice whether you want to give it a second chance or not is yours.

[ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

I really don't see this the same way. For me, lying and sneaking around is worse than flat out leaving. But, if it's not the same for you, then that is fine. I was only giving my opinion based on what I would prefer in that situation.

I also don't think that being honest necessarily means he didn't care. To me it would mean he cared enough not to cheat on you, lie and sneak around. That's from my perspective not being in the relationship or knowing either of you personally. How is cheating any less deliberate than leaving because you want to be with someone else? In both cases, you decide to do something that you know is going to hurt the other person. Do you really think that if he had cheated behind your back it was an "accident" but that because he left it was on purpose? I don't see it that way. I see it as still deliberate but also dishonest when you cheat. That just adds bad upon bad in my mind.

But, I really have no intention of telling you how you should feel. You are entitled to feel however you do. I just have a higher regard for honesty that anything else. I prefer it even when it's painful. Your personal experience and different views on this are bound to bring out some pain, and I don't want to add to that. I just have the perspective of preferring to know the truth. I see the up-front honesty as a caring gesture while to you it feels very hurtful.

Aside from all of this, I am really sorry you went through that.

Oh, and what Angela said...

I just don't know which is worse. On the one hand you have dishonesty but it can be seen as a slip. On the other you have honesty but it's deliberate. Which is worse?

Would I rather have an honest partner who doesn't care if he hurts me and goes and does what he wants knowing it will hurt me or a dishonest one who tried not to hurt me? Wrong as that may be.

I don't think there is a winner here. To me, deliberately choosing to leave is worse, if you intend on coming back that is. If you're leaving for good then it's better you leave first. You just don't come back.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by ivorytickler

I just don't know which is worse. On the one hand you have dishonesty but it can be seen as a slip. On the other you have honesty but it's deliberate. Which is worse?

Would I rather have an honest partner who doesn't care if he hurts me and goes and does what he wants knowing it will hurt me or a dishonest one who tried not to hurt me? Wrong as that may be.

I don't think there is a winner here. To me, deliberately choosing to leave is worse, if you intend on coming back that is. If you're leaving for good then it's better you leave first. You just don't come back.

For me, I know which is worse. But that doesn't mean it has to be the same as you. It seems like you still have a lot of hurt around this situation and maybe are confused about what to do. I can't blame you! It seems you are saying that he left fully intending to come back when he was done with what he was up to. Yeah, I'd agree that's just as hurtful as cheating.

But there is a whole other way to look at it, which is what Angela posted. Not easy, but very freeing.

[Tigerlilly]

Originally Posted by ivorytickler

I don't think there is a winner here. To me, deliberately choosing to leave is worse, if you intend on coming back that is. If you're leaving for good then it's better you leave first. You just don't come back.

I have a little trouble coming to grips with that, cause I can hardly imagine the arrogance of a guy who without considering my possible pov on this telling me to my face "I'll be back later." on breaking up. That wouldn't so much hurt as enrage me, and the chances he'd actually be coming back to me would be zilch.

I thought it was more like he left and then later on found out it had been a mistake to leave in the first place and then wanted to come back. Or maybe that he wasn't sure of what he wanted. In that case I'd still prefer him to leave in public than cheat in secrecy.

I just don't like the thought of my mate padding me in cotton lies, not even if it's not done for selfish reasons but with the intent of keeping me from emotional distress. I wouldn't so much see the considerate and caring aspect of it( though I won't deny that it can undoubtedly be there) but to me it'd feel like being baby-ed and I'd rather be looked upon as an equal who can deal with whatever truths are out there.

[votoshka]

The way I see it is... if a man is in a marriage and wants to have a relationship with someone else either choice he makes is deliberate. He either deliberately goes behind his wife's back, or he tells her up front what he's doing and he leaves. Either way is hurtful, of course. There is absolutely NO way of avoiding hurt. But I honestly think that in this case being upfront is definitely fairer.

No matter how you look at it, choosing to have sex with someone isn't something you do by accident... whatever the person is feeling, they KNOW what they want to do.

I really believe a man (or a woman for that matter...I'm just using man as an example as in this case it was a man) who is upfront and honest about his intentions is someone I'd rather trust, than would be a man who'd go behind my back. Being honest is far more risky, in that there is a good chance that if things don't work out with the new woman his wife may never take him back if he changes his mind. Whereas, he could justify that if he doesn't tell his wife, and things don't work out with the new woman then it's okay, cause his wife doesn't know.

It's not about him thinking he could "come back later" either. He was probably pretty darn certain he wanted to be with another woman, but then after being with her discovered that the grass wasn't any greener, it was just a different shade of green, and probably one he didn't actually like as much as the original!

I have been in a similar situation, and I'd definitely say honesty wins hands down. I'd be far more likely to trust a man who'd been honest with me and who made a mistake, than one who went behind my back to make the same mistake!

[ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

For me, I know which is worse. But that doesn't mean it has to be the same as you. It seems like you still have a lot of hurt around this situation and maybe are confused about what to do. I can't blame you! It seems you are saying that he left fully intending to come back when he was done with what he was up to. Yeah, I'd agree that's just as hurtful as cheating.

But there is a whole other way to look at it, which is what Angela posted. Not easy, but very freeing.

I don't see how blaming myself for what he did is going to help. I think he's a big boy and made his own choices. I know current pop psychology blames everyone but the person who actually chose but I think it's wrong.

I have to decide what I can and cannot live with and go from there. Accepting blame for his actions and, effectively, excusing his actions in the proccess isn't going to help anything.

[ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by votoshka

The way I see it is... if a man is in a marriage and wants to have a relationship with someone else either choice he makes is deliberate. He either deliberately goes behind his wife's back, or he tells her up front what he's doing and he leaves. Either way is hurtful, of course. There is absolutely NO way of avoiding hurt. But I honestly think that in this case being upfront is definitely fairer.

No matter how you look at it, choosing to have sex with someone isn't something you do by accident... whatever the person is feeling, they KNOW what they want to do.

I really believe a man (or a woman for that matter...I'm just using man as an example as in this case it was a man) who is upfront and honest about his intentions is someone I'd rather trust, than would be a man who'd go behind my back. Being honest is far more risky, in that there is a good chance that if things don't work out with the new woman his wife may never take him back if he changes his mind. Whereas, he could justify that if he doesn't tell his wife, and things don't work out with the new woman then it's okay, cause his wife doesn't know.

It's not about him thinking he could "come back later" either. He was probably pretty darn certain he wanted to be with another woman, but then after being with her discovered that the grass wasn't any greener, it was just a different shade of green, and probably one he didn't actually like as much as the original!

I have been in a similar situation, and I'd definitely say honesty wins hands down. I'd be far more likely to trust a man who'd been honest with me and who made a mistake, than one who went behind my back to make the same mistake!

You know, it doesn't matter why he came back. He shouldn't have. He made the choice to leave. He made the choice to be with someone else and in so doing destroyed our marriage vows. There's nothing to come back to. He threw it away. You can't go back to the dump and reclaim your refuse.

[ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by Tigerlilly

I have a little trouble coming to grips with that, cause I can hardly imagine the arrogance of a guy who without considering my possible pov on this telling me to my face "I'll be back later." on breaking up. That wouldn't so much hurt as enrage me, and the chances he'd actually be coming back to me would be zilch.

I thought it was more like he left and then later on found out it had been a mistake to leave in the first place and then wanted to come back. Or maybe that he wasn't sure of what he wanted. In that case I'd still prefer him to leave in public than cheat in secrecy.

I just don't like the thought of my mate padding me in cotton lies, not even if it's not done for selfish reasons but with the intent of keeping me from emotional distress. I wouldn't so much see the considerate and caring aspect of it( though I won't deny that it can undoubtedly be there) but to me it'd feel like being baby-ed and I'd rather be looked upon as an equal who can deal with whatever truths are out there.

I don't like being lied to either. I just find "I'm sorry, I slipped" easier to deal with, if I were inclined to take him back than "I decided I wanted something else for a while but now I want you back". Neither is good. It's just one looks more like a mistake. Mistakes are easier to forgive than things people do deliberately. If someone makes a mistake, realizes it's a mistake you might be inclined to believe they won't do it again. If they did something deliberately and just changed their mind, what about the next time?

I guess what I really think is if you're leaving for someone else, you shoudl have enough respect for your ex to just stay gone. Don't try to come back.

[LifeFirst]

Originally Posted by Angela

You know, it might be worthwhile to look boldly at what you are creating with the whole line of thought of "cheating."

You have an agreement with your partner that you will remain sexually faithful to each other forever, until one of you dies. One of you breaks that agreement and has sex with someone else. Just like any broken agreement (it happens), what would be possible in your relationship, and in your life, if you let go of judgement? Calling it "cheating" is certainly a judgement. We have been profoundly trained to believe that "cheating" is just about the worst thing you could do to a person; you are terribly diminished and injured if your partner "cheats." This in my mind is a really powerful enforcement for being a victim and absolving yourself of 100% responsibility.

So when ARE you yourself a victim?? Are you EVER a victim then if you put it in this way??

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by ivorytickler

I don't see how blaming myself for what he did is going to help. I think he's a big boy and made his own choices. I know current pop psychology blames everyone but the person who actually chose but I think it's wrong.

I have to decide what I can and cannot live with and go from there. Accepting blame for his actions and, effectively, excusing his actions in the proccess isn't going to help anything.

None of what Angela posted has anything to do with blame or fault. That's not the purpose or the point of what she said. No one is asking you to take the blame for what he did.

Also, I am not here to tell you what you should do. I understand that it is painful and it is up to you to decide what you want to do.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by LifeFirst

So when ARE you yourself a victim?? Are you EVER a victim then if you put it in this way??

Never. Nope.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by LifeFirst

So when ARE you yourself a victim?? Are you EVER a victim then if you put it in this way??

I myself am never a victim, ever.

There have been incidents in my life that had me thinking I was a victim. Only when I was able to let go of being a victim, and to take 100% responsibility (which in some cases was years after the incident), have I seen how powerful I really am. And now, since I've taken on a perspective of Way Beyond 100% Responsibility, I can actually see the glorious creative wonder of those incidents, and how incredibly constructive they are in having me expand more and more into who I truly am: infinite joy and abundance.

[Angela]

Aspiring, sometimes I think maybe I should include in my signature:

Responsibility is not blame, and acceptance is not condoning.

sigh.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Well, I think that most people are just so used to being blamed and blaming others that it doesn't occur to them that someone would suggest anything else.

And, when you're right in the middle of feeling something really strongly and haven't actually been inside of the 100% responsibilty idea for long, it's really easy to fall back into the blame and shame game (um, you know how I know that).

[ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by Angela

I myself am never a victim, ever.

There have been incidents in my life that had me thinking I was a victim. Only when I was able to let go of being a victim, and to take 100% responsibility (which in some cases was years after the incident), have I seen how powerful I really am. And now, since I've taken on a perspective of Way Beyond 100% Responsibility, I can actually see the glorious creative wonder of those incidents, and how incredibly constructive they are in having me expand more and more into who I truly am: infinite joy and abundance.

Quite simply, I do not take responsibility for what he did because I didn't do it. I take responsibility for what I do, not for what others do.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by ivorytickler

Quite simply, I do not take responsibility for what he did because I didn't do it. I take responsibility for what I do, not for what others do.

Ivorytickler, it's not a matter of taking responsibility for what he did. That's like fault or blame or shame, and that doesn't work very well.

100% responsibility is about boldly looking at who you are that the world occurs for you the way it does. That includes who you were being before, during, and after the incident you see as a problem -- and most importantly, who you are being now, and what you want to generate now. Your thoughts, responses, and actions are all 100% up to you right now.

When you assume 100% responsibility for living a life you are in love with, you have all the power in the world. Wouldn't that be a great way to be -- infinitely powerful -- in your romantic relationships?

[ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by Angela

Ivorytickler, it's not a matter of taking responsibility for what he did. That's like fault or blame or shame, and that doesn't work very well.

100% responsibility is about boldly looking at who you are that the world occurs for you the way it does. That includes who you were being before, during, and after the incident you see as a problem -- and most importantly, who you are being now, and what you want to generate now. Your thoughts, responses, and actions are all 100% up to you right now.

When you assume 100% responsibility for living a life you are in love with, you have all the power in the world. Wouldn't that be a great way to be -- infinitely powerful -- in your romantic relationships?

Not with someone who has betrayed you. Why would I want to take responsibility for a relationship that has already failed me?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by ivorytickler

Not with someone who has betrayed you. Why would I want to take responsibility for a relationship that has already failed me?

One reason I can think of is that you would want to be in love with your life. Another is that maybe you'd like to make choices that work better in your next relationship. Yet another is that possibly you have children with this guy, and you'd like to be effective, loving, and cooperative co-parents with him.

Mostly, I think, you would want to take responsibility for all of your relationships because they are the finest and most powerful means of expanding into who you really are: infinite power, joy, and abundance. All of 'em -- even the ones that cause you pain (maybe especially those!)

[ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by Angela

One reason I can think of is that you would want to be in love with your life. Another is that maybe you'd like to make choices that work better in your next relationship. Yet another is that possibly you have children with this guy, and you'd like to be effective, loving, and cooperative co-parents with him.

Mostly, I think, you would want to take responsibility for all of your relationships because they are the finest and most powerful means of expanding into who you really are: infinite power, joy, and abundance. All of 'em -- even the ones that cause you pain (maybe especially those!)

Sounds nice on paper but reality is you can't be 100% responsible for a relationship with another human being unless they are catatonic. Human relationshps involve interactions. The only thing I'm responsible for is me.