does anyone believe in breaking up before cheating?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by ivorytickler

... reality is you can't be 100% responsible for a relationship with another human being unless they are catatonic.

Well, as long as you believe that, it certainly is true!

You know that not-so-old saying: "Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they're yours!"

Do you have children with this fellow? If you don't mind me asking.

[ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by Angela

Well, as long as you believe that, it certainly is true!

You know that not-so-old saying: "Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they're yours!"

Do you have children with this fellow? If you don't mind me asking.

Well, I sure hope it's true because if it isn't someone else can take control of me. We are responsible for ourselves not others. Others do what they do. We don't control that and we're not responsible for that. The person I'm responsible for is the one who looks back from the mirror, well her and my kids but just until they're adults and then they will be responsible for themselves.

Yes, we have children but that doesn't change that he cheated on me and I cannot accept that and stay with him.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by ivorytickler

The person I'm responsible for is the one who looks back from the mirror.

Exactly! You are responsible for living the kind of life you want to live. If you are feeling bad because of what happened in your life, you are 100% responsible for it. And if you want to feel good, regardless of any outside circumstances, you are 100% responsible for that, too. When you make external circumstances, like the behavior of another person, a condition of your happiness, satisfaction, or fulfillment, you are like a little dandelion being buffetted around in the wind -- no power.

The reason I asked if you guys had kids was that I wondered: isn't it important that you and your ex have peaceful, loving, supportive relations for the kids' sake? Are you aware that you have the power to generate that, regardless of the thoughts, words, or actions of your ex?

[ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by Angela

Exactly! You are responsible for living the kind of life you want to live. If you are feeling bad because of what happened in your life, you are 100% responsible for it. And if you want to feel good, regardless of any outside circumstances, you are 100% responsible for that, too. When you make external circumstances, like the behavior of another person, a condition of your happiness, satisfaction, or fulfillment, you are like a little dandelion being buffetted around in the wind -- no power.

The reason I asked if you guys had kids was that I wondered: isn't it important that you and your ex have peaceful, loving, supportive relations for the kids' sake? Are you aware that you have the power to generate that, regardless of the thoughts, words, or actions of your ex?

That theory doesn't work. The only way the actions of others don't impact us is if we don't let ourselves connect enough to them for them to matter. I don't want to live my life that way. I'd prefer to invest in people and take the chance I'll get hurt. I'll get over it. I always do. But, when you have invested in a relationship with others, a betrayal will hit you hard. If it doesn't, you weren't invested in the first place. IMO, that's too high a price to pay to take full control of my happiness.

Yes, I could go through life making all the decisions I need to to make sure I'm happy but that means never letting anyone close enough that they could hurt me. I don't want to live on that street. I'll take my chances. You never experience life's highest of highs if you aren't willing to risk the lowest of lows.

If making sure you're never unhappy is that important to you, go for it. While I like happiness, I'm not so hung up on it that I'm not going to get close enough to the fire to get burned. It's nice and warm near the fire. Sometimes, you have the rug pulled out from under you. Sometimes someone you trusted hurts you and yes it hurts. It's normal to hurt. It's not normal to say La-de-da, I'll skip off and take care of my own happiness at a time like that.

I don't want your kind of life. I'll risk getting hurt. I'm strong enough to get over it if I do but it's not a sign of lack of control of my own life or weakness to be hurt by another. That's a sign of being human and invested.

[Erinn]

ivorytickler,

I think you're mistaking Angela's intentions. She's not saying don't get emotionally involved with another person. If I'm not mistaken myself, she is saying that you have total control over how that other person makes you feel. Even though what your husband did is terribly painful. You can still take that experience, learn from it, and choose to turn that pain into something of value to yourself. What he did hurts you, but it doesn't change the wonderful person that you are. Only you can make that change.




Angela,

I'm going to print out your first post on this thread and keep it for myself. It's a conclusion I've been slowly trying to grasp, but could never put it into words. Thank you!

[ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by Erinn

ivorytickler,

I think you're mistaking Angela's intentions. She's not saying don't get emotionally involved with another person. If I'm not mistaken myself, she is saying that you have total control over how that other person makes you feel. Even though what your husband did is terribly painful. You can still take that experience, learn from it, and choose to turn that pain into something of value to yourself. What he did hurts you, but it doesn't change the wonderful person that you are. Only you can make that change.

!

I disagree with that. The only way I can maintain control over how others make me feel is to not let myself invest in the relationship. When we invest ourselves, we place ourselves at risk. I'll take that risk. I'm strong enough to get over it if something bad happens but I'm not going to be so concerned with maintaining control that I don't let myself love. To love is to take the risk of getting hurt and no you don't control what you feel when that happens if you have allowed yourself to love. You control moving on from there but they deliver the hurt and it's natural to feel it. It's natural to lick your wounds for a while. I'd say anyone who maintains control so that that no one else can make them feel anything has given up a lot for that control. I don't want that for my life.

I will take my chances. The rewards are worth the risk IMO. Sure I could control my emotions and never let anyone close enough to knock them off base but I don't want that life.

If my husband's affair didn't leave my feeling hurt, just how invested would I have been in my marriage? I disagree that I should manage my life so no one else can make me feel something. I totally disagree with that concept. When you trust and that trust is betrayed, feeling betrayed and hurt is natural. It is not natural to go skipping off and say "Oh well, didn't hurt me, I"M in control of what I feel". That to me is a person who was never invested in the first place and I don't care to live my life that way. If others hurt me because I trust and love, so beit. I will move on.

I don't agree and I don't want that life. If Angela does, that's her choice.

[ZHereford]

I think the key to any relationship is honest and ongoing communication. That way you stay on top of where you're both emotionally. This would lessen the probability of 'cheating'.

When you know where each of you is at, you can tell whether you're drifting apart or no longer engaged in the relationship. If that happens you can make the decision to move on, fix it or continue to drift until it fizzles out. When you are both honest with 'each other' getting ambushed, and therefore very hurt or cheated on, is less likely to happen.

[Angela]

Ivorytickler, as Errin has pointed out, you are misunderstanding -- like you, I also have no interest in withholding myself from the joy and opportunity in a deeply intimate relationship with people. I advocate jumping in with both feet, and I don't pretend like I never feel pain in relationships. What I don't advocate is making my way of being dependent on the words, actions, or beliefs of another, or on any other external circumstances.

I have been through something similar to what you have been through with your ex. And by taking 100% responsibility for how I feel, and my responses, my relationship is more deeply loving, more satisfying and fulfilling, than before our incident took place. Not only did our relationship jump to a tremendous new level of intimacy, but I also had huge breakthroughs in other areas of my life -- directly as a result of the lessons I learned by taking 100% responsibility in my romantic relationship which, for me, is my special challenge opportunity in life. The thing to remember is that nobody *makes* you feel anything. It's 100% you.

I hope I haven't made you feel "wrong" -- that's not what I intend at all -- I would just love for you to feel really good, and be really effective in creating the kind of relationships, and the kind of life, that would have you singing and dancing with love, free of pain. That's why I'm such an advocate of taking 100% responsibility -- it works.

[m4xx]

Angela, I think taking 100% responsibility is just as wrong as taking 0%.

If you have 100% responsibility for how you feel and how happy you are, would there ever be a reason to tell someone "thank you!" for what they did for you?

Could you ever say "I am so happy about you being there" without lying?

cause nothing a person does would make you happy, since you are creating it all by your own!

Or why ever say "I am sorry!" to someone, if you didn't *make* them feel anything, since they created it all on their own?

I want to have a positive effect on people I interact with. I want to be useful
and I partially want to take responsibility for the people I love. (which means they couldn't take 100% of it )

[ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by m4xx

Angela, I think taking 100% responsibility is just as wrong as taking 0%.

If you have 100% responsibility for how you feel and how happy you are, would there ever be a reason to tell someone "thank you!" for what they did for you?

Could you ever say "I am so happy about you being there" without lying?

cause nothing a person does would make you happy, since you are creating it all by your own!

Or why ever say "I am sorry!" to someone, if you didn't *make* them feel anything, since they created it all on their own?

I want to have a positive effect on people I interact with. I want to be useful
and I partially want to take responsibility for the people I love. (which means they couldn't take 100% of it )

I totally agree. If I'm 100% responsible for my own happiness, what are other people for? I'd hate to live in a world where we all take 100% responsibility for our own happiness. I like making others happy. I like it when they try to make me happy. There's no mystery left if it's all up to me and, you are very correct that nothing anyone else does matters because you do it all yourself. IMO, that's arrogance.

I choose to live in a world where others and what they do matter to me. That means investing myself in relationships and, sometimes being hurt or disappointed. And then there's what you deny others when you take control. Believe it or not, they enjoy making us happy. Why would you deny that to others?

My dad gave us kids the greatest gift before he died. As he needed more and more help from us, he, graciously, accepted help. He always made you feel like what you did was exactly enough. Just pefect. What a boost that was. If I had taken 100% respontibility for my own happiness, I would have denied him the giving of that gift and never felt the happiness it conveyed. What a wonderful way to exit this life and tell your kids you love them and appreciate them. I'm glad I can rely on others to boost my happiness even if it means I sometimes am made sad by them too.

My dad, like so many seniors do, could have chosen to become bitter and angry over his growing dependence. But he didn't. And THAT made a difference. A HUGE difference. I am not responsible for that. He was. I'm just glad I was part of it.

Love takes risks. Taking 100% responsiblity for my happiness is 0% risk taking. What you miss is of far greater value than what you gain.

I totally agree about saying things like "I'm sorry" or "I'm glad you're here". How could you say either and mean them if you take 100% responsibility for your own happiness. Having been on the recieving end of those words, I can tell you first hand they have meaning beause what others in our lives do does matter. Anyone who thinks it doesn't is kidding themselves.

I don't care to live that way. I'll take the chance and ride the roller coaster.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by ivorytickler

I totally agree about saying things like "I'm sorry" or "I'm glad you're here". How could you say either and mean them if you take 100% responsibility for your own happiness.

You and m4xx seem to be saying basically the same thing, so I'm replying to both here.

You seem to both be thinking that when you take 100% responsibility, that means that you are totally insular like a boy in a bubble. You are untouched by what happens in the "world"; the only thing that matters is your thoughts and feelings. Why would anyone have any feelings about anyone else if that were the case? You're absolutely right -- they wouldn't! And I agree that that would be a cardboardy way of living.

But that's not what 100% responsibility is all about. 100% responsibility is not about being completely separate from everyone -- it's about being completely ONE with everyone. You are thinking that 100% responsibility means others don't matter, but it's just the opposite. When you take 100% responsibility, others matter as if they were you -- because you recognize that that is exactly what we are.

My way of being, if I take 100% responsibility for it, is not just generating something for myself -- it is generating it for everyone. For the entire world. If I am generating separateness or arrogance, then that is definitely something I would want to take responsibility for, and I would absolutely want to clean it up. That would mean: seeing what illusion I'm buying into and reclaiming my power; it might mean giving someone a very heartfelt apology -- that is, an apology of real sorriness for what I had been generating, and a commitment to generate something that works better in the relationship, like cooperation or love. Cleaning up after something I've generated can lead to connection, joy, and freedom that's not available in an ordinary apology.

Likewise, when I take 100% responsibility for living a life I love, the most overwhelming emotion I feel is Gratitude! Since flipping to a perspective of 100% responsibility, I've come to suspect that Gratitude may be the most powerful force in the universe. If another avatar (person) generates something for me, the gratefulness I feel is far greater than before 100% responsibility, because not only am I present to the gift I am being given, but I'm also present to the person generating that gift for themselves, and for the world. I am aware that the gift I personally receive is infinitesimal in comparison to the benefit that is generated for the world -- for the oneness. And the infinitesimalness that "Angela" receives is still so hugely, wonderfully, magnificent, that my heart swells with joy and gratitude for myself. When someone generates something that is missing that will make a difference, even if it takes the form of something you might see as "small" like a small present or favor (underneath that, something huge is being generated -- like love or generosity or fun) it is still cause for Big Celebration, and the kind of gratitude that makes ordinary, partial- or zero- responsibility gratitude, seem gray and paltry.

So, it's not a "problem" that no one *makes* you happy, and that no one *makes* you feel anything at all. It's great freedom, joy, connection, and love. Your ex-husband doesn't make you mad or irritated or enraged or frustrated. He never made you happy or unhappy. Your thoughts about him are what had you feeling what you felt. And that is incredibly good news! It frees you for the possibility of letting go of blame, shame, and fault, and for generating something that has you loving your life, the things you are really up to in life, like Joy, Love, Family, Connection, Freedom, and Peace. And best of all, if you use 100% responsibility in deliberately generating these qualities and conditions, you are not just generating them for yourself -- you are generating them for him and for everyone else in the world. Especially for your children!

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

I've found that when I am in the mode of 100% responsibility, I feel more connected, more intimate, more in love and more at ease in my relationship. When I require something of my mate, that's grasping -- not love. When I allow him freedom to be who he is and who he is not, I get an immeasurable amount of love in return.

The paradox of 100% responsibility is that when you take it on, you get what you wanted without all of the pain.

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by Angela

What would be possible if you could let go of making your partner wrong and generate the values you want for yourself, your partnership, and your life?

Well said.

I've had a lot of problems with jealousy in my life. What I've found is that the insecurity that causes the jealousy breeds more of itself.

Like if I feel that my gf is seeking someone else, I try to control her. That control causes her to seek more. If I stop trying to control the situation and just let things go as they will, they turn out the best for everybody involved.

I think cheating occurs because people have difficulty being honest about how they feel. It looks like the easy route out of a relationship. The same problem however will pop up in the next relationship. That's the other person's issue and not mine.

If someone feels that way, I'd rather they get on with it and not waste my time. There are millions of other women in the world. My insecurity comes from thinking that not a single one of those millions of women might be interested in being with me.

[Lea]

Affairs are selfish acts whether one is honest before doing it or not unless both partners are in agreement and share open relationship type ideology. If they don't share the same views on affairs, then the faithful one needs to reassess the relationship with this person. When a partner has an affair, percentages are high that they will have another one sometime in the future.

[ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by Lea

Affairs are selfish acts whether one is honest before doing it or not unless both partners are in agreement and share open relationship type ideology. If they don't share the same views on affairs, then the faithful one needs to reassess the relationship with this person. When a partner has an affair, percentages are high that they will have another one sometime in the future.

I agree. Even if you can get past the emotional aspects of an affair, there's still that this person, whom you trusted, took a risk with your very life. How easily could he pass a disease to you he wasn't yet aware he contracted? IMO, it is the ultimate in seflishness to expose your partner like that. Here they are trusting you and trusting you're not carrying something. What if that last tryst gave you AIDS?

This aspect of my husband's affair is what really makes me furious. What in the world made him think he had the right to be with someone esle, expose himeself to God knows what and then come back? I got the "we just dated" excuse and beleived him. So far, nothing has shown up on tests. Why shoudl I have to live with not knowing if he passed something to me because HE had an affair. You don't do that to someone you claim to love.

[Angela]

Ivorytickler, I am so sorry for the pain you've gone through with your man. I hope very much that I haven't made it worse with telling you my opinions, and I hope very much that you have tons of happiness in your life.

The women here will be with me, I'm sure, if you want us to get together and kick his butt for you. Where have Lola and NotesMaeve been? This is a time when we need them.

[Playlife]

Originally Posted by Angela

The women here will be with me, I'm sure, if you want us to get together and kick his butt for you.

And men here won't be???

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Playlife

And men here won't be???

Maybe, I don't know. I just know we've got a strong contingent of butt-kicking women here. Metaphorically speaking, of course.