Male/Female Interactions

[SuperJambo]

Not sure how many people here are getting the PUA reference.
If not you should probably read 'The Game'.

But basically PUA = Pick Up Artist or in english people who're attempting to use the scientific method to get good at seduction.

Anyway, Radical, you say your problem is coming from understanding and viewing interactions as 'fake'. I don't know you and am just guessing but it sounds like your situation is:

In your Male / Female interactions you see people exhibit a particular behaviour. Because of the PU Theory models you have you can attribute this behaviour to disires in the person which are at odds to what they say they want.

Or in other words, PU theory and models tell you that the girl is interested in you but the girl states that she isn't interested in you, consequently she's being 'fake', it's all lies and deception. PU theories tell you that you should lie about your desires and intentions and indeed you discover that if you lie people like you better. Consequently they WANT you to be 'fake'.

This is what I assume is the source of your current feelings?

So, assuming that I'm not just off on some mad wild theory. This is my answer:

The PU Theorys you have in you mind are not the reality of the situation, "the map is not the territory". Just because what you see fits the model in your head doesn't make the model 100% accurate. Remember, these models and theories aren't created to be accurate, they aren't designed to give a full and rich description of what is going on. They're created and used because they are USEFUL IN PICKING UP WOMEN. Thats it, thats the test, so just because you have these theories and they describe behaviour fairly well, doesn't make them TRUE. Most guys don't care if the theory is True, they care that it Works.

[Lychee]

Originally Posted by Radical

Ok, I fell in love with this girl and I know she liked me too - I really felt like she understood me. Anyway, I had low self-esteem and thought myself not good enough for her and so I never asked her out. I didn’t think not asking her out would affect me that much, but the thought that I failed to have the girl of my dreams because I couldn’t see my own worth has left me a bit heart broken. Now the world seems less wondrous. I find myself caring less about things now and I often feel empty during interactions. When it comes to male/female interactions, truthfully I don’t want to be judged on attractiveness and mate-ability, however thanks to PUA I know this is the case. I don't want to be some masculine good looking rock with no insecurities, I just want people to accept and love me for who I am. I feel alone and like no one understands me. Sorry if it sounds like I’m wallowing. I don’t want your pity, just your understanding.

We've just seen a new side of you, Radical.

[Jaben]

Have you had discussions on a forum with someone you did not know the gender of?
Did you wonder what their gender was?
What do you want from an interaction?
Sex
Information
Procurement of material items
Emotional support
Intellectual connection
Recognition
Compassion
Companionship
Partnership
Love
Enjoyment
Acceptance
Happiness
What interactions would ideally be most meaningful to you?
Can you find in yourself desires that transcend the biological procreation drive that provide acceptance, enjoyment or enthusiasm to you?

I feel the emptiness you are talking about I believe. If the true motivation behind every interaction is sexual or even material, than every interaction seems superficial and manipulative.

But, if you find something that is truly meaningful to you and you can feel empowered with joy and love interacting with someone regarding this without knowing their gender than you'd be free of this emptiness, wouldn't you? When interacting with people you'll have to weed out all of the interactions that are superficial and manipulative to find the same passion in others that brings meaning and purpose to your life.

[Alvin]

Radical, you're a smart guy so you need to get clear on this: it's not about whether or not there are sexual undertones in male/female interactions and the good/bad judgments about it, it's about you not getting a girl you wanted and beating yourself over it. It's also about your doubt of your own self-worth.

And despite what you're saying, you're also trying to rationalize and justify your inability to act and continued inability to act to yourself.

Now, I wouldn't have bothered to explain, but from your previous posts I know you're a smart guy and you'd understand...because you probably know this already

So you might also know the advice you need to hear: buck up! Just like riding a bicycle isn't a skill you were born with, social, pick-up, flirting and seduction skills are things you need to learn and practice too...and yes, that does involve a lot of falling flat on your face, but your skin will get thicker from that

Now I'm not dissing you, I speak from experience, I've been where you are. Worse, because the girl I was absolutely convinced was the one I went out with, several times over a decade...and it never worked out. Dude, I was devastated.

Since then I've dated other girls, had fun, connection and passion, had 2 girlfriends, so I know for a fact life goes on.

The first thing any decent PUA will tell you is that you need solid 'inner game' first, and that just means working on yourself, making yourself kick-ass and your life a joy. When that happens, you naturally attract people who are also kick-ass and have joyous lives.

So you have a choice, you can overthunk this whole male/female/sex thing and become an onlooker, isolate yourself from the game with your reasons, or pick yourself up and play. Play so you become the player instead of the played, and I don't mean in the PUA sense.

Ultimately Radical, you need to love yourself wholeheartedly for who you are, because when you do, other people will too

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Jaben

Have you had discussions on a forum with someone you did not know the gender of?

That's an excellent point, Jaben; wish I'd thought of it.

[mattsonn]

David DeAngelo's newsletters.

That's my sole contribution to this thread.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Alvin

buck up!

That is my all-time fave-rave all-purpose piece of personal development advice.

[Radical]

Originally Posted by Alvin

Radical, you're a smart guy so you need to get clear on this: it's not about whether or not there are sexual undertones in male/female interactions and the good/bad judgments about it, it's about you not getting a girl you wanted and beating yourself over it. It's also about your doubt of your own self-worth.

And despite what you're saying, you're also trying to rationalize and justify your inability to act and continued inability to act to yourself.

Now, I wouldn't have bothered to explain, but from your previous posts I know you're a smart guy and you'd understand...because you probably know this already

So you might also know the advice you need to hear: buck up! Just like riding a bicycle isn't a skill you were born with, social, pick-up, flirting and seduction skills are things you need to learn and practice too...and yes, that does involve a lot of falling flat on your face, but your skin will get thicker from that

Now I'm not dissing you, I speak from experience, I've been where you are. Worse, because the girl I was absolutely convinced was the one I went out with, several times over a decade...and it never worked out. Dude, I was devastated.

Since then I've dated other girls, had fun, connection and passion, had 2 girlfriends, so I know for a fact life goes on.

The first thing any decent PUA will tell you is that you need solid 'inner game' first, and that just means working on yourself, making yourself kick-ass and your life a joy. When that happens, you naturally attract people who are also kick-ass and have joyous lives.

So you have a choice, you can overthunk this whole male/female/sex thing and become an onlooker, isolate yourself from the game with your reasons, or pick yourself up and play. Play so you become the player instead of the played, and I don't mean in the PUA sense.

Ultimately Radical, you need to love yourself wholeheartedly for who you are, because when you do, other people will too

That’s what I needed to hear.

I know I’m just a foolish 19 year old making a big fuss about nothing - scared about the big wide world I’ve yet to step in to. Thanks Alvin, I will stop complaining and start experiencing!

Also, I think the pain of this experience was an important learning curve.

[Nicketas]

Originally Posted by Radical

I challenge someone to scientifically test out this theory, that all male/female interactions have an undertone of sexuality.

The next time you interact with someone and you think they're flirting or whatever, ask them if they would like to give you oral pleasure?

Then report their responses in this thread.

Obviously this would take balls of steel, so I doubt anyone will take up this challenge.

I've always wondered this though, what would a woman say if I bluntly asked her to give me oral pleasure?

Balls of steel? Mine must be ten-ton titanium, then...

Honestly it's not that difficult to say something offensive to a stranger, considering practically nothing bad ever really happens, but on to the main point/s at hand;

There's several HUGE problems with your proposition, because it's mainly all contextual

1] People lie. A woman might actually want to give you head if you ask, but she'll say no out of tact in order to keep herself from looking like a slut either to you (afraid she may scare you off/be unladylike) or to other people around (risk for her social & dating reputation).

2] The fundamental language problem. Since not everyone is equally adept at their native language (particularly american english since our public school systems are so ridiculously f1cking terrible), a lot of people have a hard time describing what they want and why. Even though the proposition of oral sex is not a difficult one, the feelings of attraction that would affect whether someone desires to perform an act are difficult for most people to describe. So if you were to ask someone that question, and they gave an answer, then you asked them WHY they gave you that answer, they probably couldn't tell you.

3] Women are intrinsically indecisive, or rather, they LOVE men to make decisions for them. Your response rate from women will dramatically increase if you tell them to do something than if you ask permission. Does it make any sense? Not unless you understand the dynamics. Does it fly in the face of feminism? Yeah. Does it work? YEAH. I'm not saying be a dick, I'm saying that if you tell a women "kiss me" (and do it in the right way), she'll be more responsive than if you ask. Even if she's attracted to you, she still might say no if you ask. But if you don't give any options and just say "touch me/kiss me/hug me/go down on me" and do it in an interesting way, an affirmative result is far more likely.

4] There's more to any interaction than the words being used. Two different guys can approach the same girl at different times with the same proposition, asking the question you posed, and get completely different results.

So even if everyone else in this thread did experiment with your question of asking a woman for oral sex and the response was "no" (like you anticipate), I could find someone (including but not limited to myself) who could find a way to make that question work on almost any girl (not prostitutes of course, by the way, because that would grok the experiment).

So the environmental, contextual, and situational variables determine the answer that a person will give to any given question.

Social interactions are not binary, and though predictable if you know what to look for, they are still fully alive and dynamic. You can ask the same question to the same person and get different answers depending on so many things.

Besides, if you're really good with women, if you just radiate confidence like a shining sun, you can get a woman to say yes to damn near anything because she'll do anything just to be in your presence. Really.

[Nicketas]

Originally Posted by mattsonn

David DeAngelo's newsletters.

That's my sole contribution to this thread.

His mastery program is completely, wickedly, deliciously amazing.

[Nicketas]

Originally Posted by Radical

Is it just me, or does it seem like all male/female interactions have an undertone of sexuality?

This is a serious question btw. I mean I've started to notice it, even with relatives - which is disturbing.

Also, I'm beginning to become paranoid, thanks to PUA's. (You know who you are, lol.)

Anyway, this thought is making me view male/female interaction, as nothing but a superficial farce.

Sexuality? No.

Sexual Energy? Yes.

Why? Because our sex drive (which is a complicated system of organs plus neurological/biological/psychological functions, along with our endocrine system) is the source of a LOT of our emotional energy. Napoleon hill writes about utilizing & transmutating sex energy in think & grow rich, for example.

So technically our sexual energy is a part of damn near everything we do, but that does not mean it is supposed to lead to sex every time. It's just part of our being, a resource, if you will.

So you'll notice this same kind, this same 'flavor' of energy if you will, existing in many different interactions. This does not mean that all interactions are sexual, or that ACTUAL sexual desire/attraction is there. It just means that an abundance of energy is there.

You have to make the distinction between sexual energy and sexual attraction, because while they CAN correlate, they are NOT the same thing.

[Nicketas]

Originally Posted by Radical

All the falseness of socialising makes me feel really empty.

It's only false or farcical if you think it is and you stop enjoying it.

Find a way to create your own conversations so that they are enjoyable for both you and the other people involved and you'll stop this stupid nonsensical belief.

Oh, and stop reading the mystery method.

[Radical]

Nice posts Nicketas.

I honestly don't think that all male/female interactions involve mutual sexual attraction, but I do believe each person is evaluating the other as a potential mate and in turn wondering whether the other person finds them attractive (at least on first meeting).

However, I do dislike PUA and the attraction process in general. I want to be more than a mere animal controlled by primitive instincts. I want to say that my behaviour is not influenced in the slightest by sexual desires, but that would be lying. I hate the realisation of my primitiveness - just another link in the chain of evolution.

I also hate how easy it is to attract any woman, just by following some basic rules. I struggle to respect their strong desire to be dominated.

The only reason I find some interactions empty is because I realise that the other person doesn't really give a damn about me, they are only interested in showing off what a good person they are.

Also, what is the mystery method?

PS that challenge to ask for oral sex was just a joke. Although I hypothesize that most women would secretly want to give head.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Radical

I hate the realisation of my primitiveness - just another link in the chain of evolution.

Recognizing that this is a part of us is important: you are an animal. But equally important is recognizing that you are not just an animal: you are also human.

Originally Posted by Radical

I also hate how easy it is to attract any woman, just by following some basic rules. I struggle to respect their strong desire to be dominated.

Actually, from what I've seen in the seduction community, it doesn't work very well on women with low self-esteem. Also, as I stated elsewhere, the art of pick-up is essentially a psychological dance. It's not inherently male-to-female: gay men use the same techniques.

The PUA mentality is inherently inaccurate, because it assumes gender roles. It's interpretable as an interpretation of Intention-Manifestation.

Originally Posted by Radical

The only reason I find some interactions empty is because I realise that the other person doesn't really give a damn about me, they are only interested in showing off what a good person they are.

Ironically, this has nothing to do with sex. It's merely coincidental that people also think about sex more than anything else. Thus, what else would they show off?

I think you need better friends, or at least better company.