Male/Female Interactions

[aelle]

Radical,

What is your definition of "sexual undertone"? If "sexual undertone"=thinking of having sex, while "no sexual undertone"= compeletely neutral relationship, then definitely no.

I have a much more nuanced approach to this. There are a lot of degrees and of different ways between these two extremes. Some people give you a feeling of physical closeness (you'll want to hug them or give them a friendly kiss), with some people you feel admiration, with some people you feel a great complicity (you feel right away like you've known each other forever). None of these are neutral relationships, but they are not really sexual either. It's more like different levels of sensuality. It is hard to notice it or accept it even, because we are so conditionned to consider relationships on a 100% intellectual level, or intellectual+sex.

By the way, I don't think the gay/straight distinction is that binary. A friend of mine who is bi told me about a study (sorry I can't remember the source) stating that only a very small percentage of people are 100% gay, or 100% straight, or 100% bi (feel exaclty the same attraction for either gender)

For most people, our interactions are on a more subtle scale than this. Whether people are aware of it or not, whether people accept it or not. Can't you think of friendships in which there was more than intellectual bonding?

I noticed guys (more than girls) have a lot of trouble accepting this idea, they'll be like "are you calling me gay???"
I'm not I'm saying that perfectly neutral relationships, with people from any gender, are very rare, whatever your sexual inclination is. This is why, even without any sexual afterthought, hugs, kisses and cuddles feel so good.

[Baltar]

Originally Posted by Radical

Yes, I believe life has no real purpose, other than to produce more life. Although, at the end of the day life is what you make it. Also, I don't believe in a supernatural god, so finding purpose in Christianity is not an option.

If you've been following Steve's blog and the discussions in this forum you'll know that your beliefs dictate what's true for you. So if you believe life has no purpose other than reproduction, then that's all your life will ever be. We create our own reality, whether or not you believe that.

Originally Posted by Radical

We are getting a little off topic here. My question is whether a male and female can interact, without a sexual undertone? (Ignoring gays and lesbians.)

Why not? Again, if you believe that this is how it is then that's what you'll see. Otherwise you won't see it. From what I can tell by reading your posts you're trying to objectify the universe, but it's not objective. You remind me of myself when I was younger. I used to try to categorize and objectify everything I saw... But I gave up eventually because it never worked in the long term. Believe me, it's a lot more empowering to change your beliefs to match what you want from life rather than to adopt your beliefs to what your senses tell you.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Radical

My question is whether a male and female can interact, without a sexual undertone? (Ignoring gays and lesbians.)

It must be convenient to be able to chop off a significant percentage of the human population when generalizing about its entirety.

Originally Posted by Alvin

Wear rose-tinted glasses and you start seeing red everywhere.

One of my favorite stories was about a researcher who noticed a bunch of frogs on one side of a river. He came up with a theory, "This type of frog lives on the south side of the river." Then, he went and conducted further observations, tossing frogs on the north side of the river across, because they were on the wrong side.

Originally Posted by aelle

A friend of mine who is bi told me about a study (sorry I can't remember the source) stating that only a very small percentage of people are 100% gay, or 100% straight, or 100% bi (feel exaclty the same attraction for either gender)

If you ever find that study, please share. I had a theory some time ago that all people were bisexual, but I had no idea how to go about figuring out whether that was true or false. I'd love to read someone else's opinion on the subject.

[Radical]

Originally Posted by aelle

This is why, even without any sexual afterthought, hugs, kisses and cuddles feel so good.

I wouldn't know.

Originally Posted by Baltar

Believe me, it's a lot more empowering to change your beliefs to match what you want from life rather than to adopt your beliefs to what your senses tell you.

More empowering maybe. Although, if I don't form beliefs based on what my senses tell me, then how can I distinguish reality from delusion?

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

I had a theory some time ago that all people were bisexual, but I had no idea how to go about figuring out whether that was true or false. I'd love to read someone else's opinion on the subject.

I bloody hope not, I got enough to worry about with girls thank you.

[Christian223]

You cant, you just have to choose the best delusion, how can you hope to see reality as it really is?, does it have sense to try that?, is it really posible?, can you see and comprehend even the smallest things?, i think not...

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Radical

More empowering maybe. Although, if I don't form beliefs based on what my senses tell me, then how can I distinguish reality from delusion?

Neo: This...this isn't real?
Morpheus: What is real. How do you define real? If you're talking about what you can feel, what you can smell, what you can taste and see, then real is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain.

So yeah... trust your senses. Because they're so unbelievably reliable. Note something as simple as Change blindness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia or something as interesting as Gestalt psychology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and ask yourself whether or not senses communicate reality to you as effectively as you think they do.

How can you distinguish reality from delusion? It's a matter of belief.

[Radical]

Originally Posted by Christian223

can you see and comprehend even the smallest things?, i think not...

Gee thanks.

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

So yeah... trust your senses.

I will. I personally think our over evolved brains are just over analysing things.

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

How can you distinguish reality from delusion? It's a matter of belief.

So, really we're all schizophrenics - living in our own little delusional worlds?

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Radical

I will. I personally think our over evolved brains are just over analysing things.

Like seeing sexual undertones in all male/female interactions despite simple counterexamples?

Originally Posted by Radical

So, really we're all schizophrenics - living in our own little delusional worlds?

No. Schizophrenia assumes that you cannot communicate your beliefs to others, assuming you believe that they exist. That is why they are insane: we cannot understand their reality.

Belief is not a deduction. It is not an empirical conclusion. Belief is an axiom, a choice made beforehand to corroborate observations. The first belief, that reality exists, is necessary before you can presume a second belief, that the reality is communicated to you through your senses, which gives way to a third belief, that what is reported to you is indeed accurate.

[songwriter]

Well reality may enter into the brain through the senses.
By throught ALL the senses, not only the classic 5 ones. I think there are 23 senses really. I'm not kidding...

Though, yes, all you get is electricity into your brain, similar to the computers way of receiving information.

And maybe our brains change due to all that electricity, call it experience or life. All the information we have get has changed our brains and making everyone see things in their way, with their own beliefs. But you can get a new information, and get a new feeling, so some electricity will go into your brain, and it will be changed. Feelings change us. Or may I say the perception of our feelings (that's another sense).

Like "ok, it seems I was wrong in that belief, from now on, I'm gonna try to think X". And your SR changes... because your brain changes. Reality is just the same but every brain or consciousness thinks different about it according to beliefs created by our senses.

Don't take this too seriously.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by songwriter

And maybe our brains change due to all that electricity, call it experience or life. All the information we have get has changed our brains and making everyone see things in their way, with their own beliefs. But you can get a new information, and get a new feeling, so some electricity will go into your brain, and it will be changed. Feelings change us. Or may I say the perception of our feelings (that's another sense).

Of course it does. That's exactly what learning is. Read Jeff Hawkins' "On Intelligence" (Amazon.com: On Intelligence: Books: Jeff Hawkins,Sandra Blakeslee); it's designed for laymen.

[Radical]

It's not so much that I care whether or not male/female interactions have an undertone of sexuality. It's just that I can't seem to enjoy them. Also, sometimes I feel resentment towards people who I perceive to be thinking about me in a sexual way. I think this is because I have never had any experiences of that kind before. And I feel like other people have had these experiences, have girlfriends/boyfriends etc, and so should not be thinking about me in a certain way - unless they want to ask me out. Does this make any sense?

[Dating Specialist]

Originally Posted by Radical

It's not so much that I care whether or not male/female interactions have an undertone of sexuality. It's just that I can't seem to enjoy them. Also, sometimes I feel resentment towards people who I perceive to be thinking about me in a sexual way. I think this is because I have never had any experiences of that kind before. And I feel like other people have had these experiences, have girlfriends/boyfriends etc, and so should not be thinking about me in a certain way - unless they want to ask me out. Does this make any sense?

Yes Radical it makes sense. At the same time, I remember we seem to have touched on this issue too in another thread. If you feel the guys interacting with you keep thinking about sex with their girlfriends, and have that undertone in all their conversation with you, you're probably right, since they're reaching a young adult phase now with high libido, right?

But if you're assuming that's what the ladies are thinking too, then I beg to differ. Girls don't like to be seen as sex objects, and they find it offensive that guys will talk to them or approach them with only that objective in mind. So chances of them talking to you with that undertone shouldn't be a concern for you, because, assuming there really is (assuming), it would just be a fleeting thought that's all!

So ultimately, like what you've said yourself - you don't really care. I'm wondering are you using this as a legitimate reason not to talk to girls so you can conveniently continue to stay in your corner?

[Radical]

Originally Posted by Dating Specialist

But if you're assuming that's what the ladies are thinking too, then I beg to differ. Girls don't like to be seen as sex objects, and they find it offensive that guys will talk to them or approach them with only that objective in mind. So chances of them talking to you with that undertone shouldn't be a concern for you, because, assuming there really is (assuming), it would just be a fleeting thought that's all!

I don't know what girls you're talking about, but the ones I've come in to contact with don't sound like this. I mean, I can tell they're as horny as hell. However, I agree - no one likes to be seen as a sex object, men included.

Originally Posted by Dating Specialist

So ultimately, like what you've said yourself - you don't really care. I'm wondering are you using this as a legitimate reason not to talk to girls so you can conveniently continue to stay in your corner?

No, it's just that deep down I feel like a child thrust into an adult world.

[Dating Specialist]

Originally Posted by Radical

I don't know what girls you're talking about, but the ones I've come in to contact with don't sound like this. I mean, I can tell they're as horny as hell. However, I agree - no one likes to be seen as a sex object, men included.

No, it's just that deep down I feel like a child thrust into an adult world.

Ok, the only deduction I have is - you must be real cool and cute. Send me your photo and I'll see what is the effect on me. lol

Now, let's make a bold assumption again, that those girls are indeed horny. So what's the big deal? You'd rather they have such sexual interest in you than to take one glance at you and turn right over? I mean, hey that's just an asset you have, and instead of feeling comfortable in it, you're questioning every bit of controversy that comes with it.

I'm really curious Radical. How does questioning eveything, be it a truth, subjective reallity, beliefs, doubts make YOU happier? Does it help to enrich your life better, vs really taking action and going out to experience life itself?

I mean theories are all theories. You can say they are BS or what nots? But life experiences are REAL! They consist of so much more, memories! You dont' have to ascertain certain things and test it out on all levels of possiblilities, theories before deciding to test it out, right? By then, you would have lost out 90% of the fun.

As what Forrest Gump says "Life is like a box of chocolates. You never know what is inside until you open it or eat it (sorry can't remember )"

It's the uncertainties in life that makes this journey more worthwile and ride more interesting and memorable.

Hope I haven't talked too much.. Have a great weekend Radical, young man

[Radical]

Originally Posted by Dating Specialist

Ok, the only deduction I have is - you must be real cool and cute. Send me your photo and I'll see what is the effect on me. lol

Now, let's make a bold assumption again, that those girls are indeed horny. So what's the big deal? You'd rather they have such sexual interest in you than to take one glance at you and turn right over? I mean, hey that's just an asset you have, and instead of feeling comfortable in it, you're questioning every bit of controversy that comes with it.

I'm really curious Radical. How does questioning eveything, be it a truth, subjective reallity, beliefs, doubts make YOU happier? Does it help to enrich your life better, vs really taking action and going out to experience life itself?

I mean theories are all theories. You can say they are BS or what nots? But life experiences are REAL! They consist of so much more, memories! You dont' have to ascertain certain things and test it out on all levels of possiblilities, theories before deciding to test it out, right? By then, you would have lost out 90% of the fun.

As what Forrest Gump says "Life is like a box of chocolates. You never know what is inside until you open it or eat it (sorry can't remember )"

It's the uncertainties in life that makes this journey more worthwile and ride more interesting and memorable.

Hope I haven't talked too much.. Have a great weekend Radical, young man

Yeah, I definately analyse things too much - and you are not the first person to tell me this, lol. I constantly piss my family off by analysing everything.

Anyway, I think I may just be confusing people thinking I'm cute, with people thinking about me sexually.

Have a great weekend too, Dating Specialist.

[andrew]

I'm curious on why you don't enjoy it? Sexual undertones in everyday conversations are fun! They're what makes interactions with the opposite sex interesting.

So what if they have a boyfriend and there's sexual undertones in your conversation? Granted it can be alittle akward if their boyfriend is like right there, but as long as you know it's innocent flirting, there's nothing to worry about, unless the boyfriend is in the mafia or his name is bruno. Also what if she's not happy with her boyfriend? Maybe you'd make a better mate for her. Maybe, she's fine with her boyfriend and is just another human that is comfortable with her sexuality and doesn't think twice about it.

[Susie]

Originally Posted by Radical

Is it just me, or does it seem like all male/female interactions have an undertone of sexuality?

This is a serious question btw. I mean I've started to notice it, even with relatives - which is disturbing.

Also, I'm beginning to become paranoid, thanks to PUA's. (You know who you are, lol.)

Anyway, this thought is making me view male/female interaction, as nothing but a superficial farce.

I don't think this is the case at all. Unless I happen to be attracted to the person, and/or them to me. And even then there isn't always a sexual undertone...in my opinion flirting isn't necessarily sexual. There is such a thing as friendliness/playfulness that doesn't have to do with sex. I think if you find this kind of thing disturbing you need to examine your own hangups!

[Christian223]

Mh, i was hoping that you would apply some thought, let me explain myself a little better. What happens if you put your finger pointing the sun so that you cant see the sun anymore, what do your senses tell you?, the sun disappeared, the thing is that you know that it cant dissapear just like that but thats because you have a set of beliefs that has been taught to you since the day you where born, you have been raised to think in a determined set of way about the world.

I heard a story about a tribe (or a man, im not sure) that lived in a deep forest, so that they didnt knew the concept of "distance" since they where allways surrounded by big trees, when in a day for some reason they came out of the forest, and for the first time they could see a long distance, whenever they saw an animal in the distnace they thought it was a very small animal, so small that you can put it in your hand, his senses trick them since they didnt know the truth.

There was a time that people thought that earth was an horizontal plane, but a day a guy came and investigated what the truth was. Just think about the smallest things, molecules, cells, atoms, how much time and work did it take to find out the things they teach us now about the smalles things!, how can we hope to comprehend by ourselves the most complicated things?.

You can only see with your mind, whatever is on your mind determines what you can or cannot see.

[Radical]

Originally Posted by andrew

I'm curious on why you don't enjoy it? Sexual undertones in everyday conversations are fun! They're what makes interactions with the opposite sex interesting.

It makes me feel empty inside.

[Radical]

Originally Posted by Susie

I think if you find this kind of thing disturbing you need to examine your own hangups!

I'm just curious that's all - no offense intended.

[legend]

Radical, Part of it might be social
Sex sells it is a primitive way to try and jocky for position in a conversation but most effective.
I think that People want you to believe that they want you on a sexual level because somewhere down inside they feel this gives them an advantage, connection, breaks the situation down to basic animal level, or they may realy be attracted to the other.

I'm just saying it is more than chemicals and animal instinct

It does exsist and I notice as we have become a more comercial world through tv and the net it is increasing the new generation is learning this is how you get what you want


Much Love

[Radical]

Originally Posted by legend

Radical, Part of it might be social
Sex sells it is a primitive way to try and jocky for position in a conversation but most effective.
I think that People want you to believe that they want you on a sexual level because somewhere down inside they feel this gives them an advantage, connection, breaks the situation down to basic animal level, or they may realy be attracted to the other.

I'm just saying it is more than chemicals and animal instinct

It does exsist and I notice as we have become a more comercial world through tv and the net it is increasing the new generation is learning this is how you get what you want


Much Love

All the falseness of socialising makes me feel really empty.

[legend]

It's all a learned process
Do not connect feeling to it at all
See it for what it is and don't take part in it
With the varying levels of awareness, spirtuality, and intellect out there
a common process is needed

You have a choice to play outside the rules and give real Love to all
This will never leave you empty or sad my friend

Much Love

[Radical]

Originally Posted by legend

It's all a learned process
Do not connect feeling to it at all
See it for what it is and don't take part in it
With the varying levels of awareness, spirtuality, and intellect out there
a common process is needed

You have a choice to play outside the rules and give real Love to all
This will never leave you empty or sad my friend

Much Love

Nice advice; and very true. We have so much potential to make a difference and show love, but all we do is squander it.

This is a real problem I have right now though. Ever since I failed to ask out this girl, every social interaction has left me feeling empty and even more alone.

[legend]

Take it as a Lesson Learned
I have let that same thing happen to me
Now I strive to be the biggest fool in the room and connect
when I feel the spark
Stay positive and you will find your next chance before you know it
might even be the same girl
Don't be surprized
It has happened to me


Much Love

[madgeylou]

Originally Posted by Radical

All the falseness of socialising makes me feel really empty.

then find a way to make it not false.

just because people are playful doesnt mean they are false. and just because someone is "flirting" with you (what do you mean by that? talking playfully? joking around?) doesnt mean that person wants to jump your bones -- not necessarily, and not necessarily right now.

people think that romantic relationships involve lots of "game-playing" and i guess you can choose to look at it that way if you want to. the way it looks to me is that certain things in the universe work in certain ways. as mr. big put it, a bunch of garlic and onions and tomatoes and salt and oregano does not spaghetti sauce make. you have to chop the veggies and brown the garlic, etc. certain steps come at certain times.

for me, there's a lot of steps of getting to know someone that have to come before sex even matters. the trick is to derive enjoyment from every step, and not rush through just to get to the next -- this is something i'm really trying to work on too.

to answer the original question, can males and females ever interact in a non-sexual way? i would say yes, of course. there certainly are not sexual undertones when i talk to my grandpa, for instance. nor are they there with most of my male colleagues. but there is playfulness in all of those interactions.

i guess i'm just trying to get you to see that playfulness <> always about sex. if you can decouple them in your mind, then you will be able to be more playful yourself. and once you start being playful with girls, ironically, it will be a lot easier for you to connect with them, whether it's on a friendly or an overtly sexual level.

[uon]

Originally Posted by andrew

I'm curious on why you don't enjoy it? Sexual undertones in everyday conversations are fun! They're what makes interactions with the opposite sex interesting.

Ding!

Radical mentioned the PUA effect on his consciousness, and I can say I've also been exposed to this material and it has dramatically altered my view of male/female interaction. But as DatingSpecialist mentioned, who cares if they are horny as hell? You are basically tuning into another dimension of reality, and as you build your filter more of it comes through. ITS OK.

I was repressing certain aspects of my sexual side for a long time, determined to be the 'not-an-a-s-s-h-o-l-e' (sorry mods if thats an offense) friend. It was borne out of good intentions, but in reality was a mask for sexual insecurities. Changing my filter, making it ok to recognize and play with the sexual undertones has been extremely challenging, anxiety provoking, depth of my soul pain juicing .. yet .. heart racing, skin tingling, masculine sexual charge root chakra opening experience :]

Go with it man. There are thousands upon thousands of subtle realms in this world. Its your freedom to choose which set of filters you are operating at any one time.

Examine the link between this sexual energy and a feeling of emptiness. Were you raised Catholic, did you experience sexual abuse growing up, -what has taught you that being a sexual being is devoid of Life- ? (don't answer here, just food for though).

[uon]

Originally Posted by Radical

This is a real problem I have right now though. Ever since I failed to ask out this girl, every social interaction has left me feeling empty and even more alone.

I just read this last thing you posted. Don't sit there and wallow in your own pity. There's really nothing to learn by sitting there depressed. There is no light at the end of the tunnel letting the pain churn over in your heart. One way to conquer this is to first of all release the connection between your identity and what you think/feel/do. Does your failure with the one girl in anyway reflect the reality of who you are? No. If you were to go out and approach 5 girls tonight, with 0% success rate, could you allow that to be what it is and go about your life? Learn to detach. Its an insider secret that when your emotions are NOT on the line in a conversation with a woman, she is going to TRUST you much more because she will sense your solid internal structure. You don't have to impress a woman or tell her any more than you want to. You can even create an alter-ego and go out just to have fun! Its OK not to talk about the normal things with a woman, jobs, school, politics..etc. In fact, if you are FREE enough to be a confident, funny, withholding man, it is going to ramp up the attraction even more.

Good luck.

[Radical]

Ok, I fell in love with this girl and I know she liked me too - I really felt like she understood me. Anyway, I had low self-esteem and thought myself not good enough for her and so I never asked her out. I didn’t think not asking her out would affect me that much, but the thought that I failed to have the girl of my dreams because I couldn’t see my own worth has left me a bit heart broken. Now the world seems less wondrous. I find myself caring less about things now and I often feel empty during interactions. When it comes to male/female interactions, truthfully I don’t want to be judged on attractiveness and mate-ability, however thanks to PUA I know this is the case. I don't want to be some masculine good looking rock with no insecurities, I just want people to accept and love me for who I am. I feel alone and like no one understands me. Sorry if it sounds like I’m wallowing. I don’t want your pity, just your understanding.

[Christian223]

because I couldn’t see my own worth

I think the problem is there. You have to work with improving your self-esteem, and more importantly, learn from your mistakes and never do that again.

You have to love yourself first, i cant think of other solution, but i hope you can put some thought on it and not inmediatelly dismissing it, you have to get better from the inside to make the outside better, not the other way around. You just have to stand up and get working, nothing good is going to happen if you stay in that state but work with what you wish to improve, dont dwell in toughts that wont change anything, think on how you can change to achieve happyness.

I understand your sadness (who hasnt been heart broken?), but you need to get better, you may be sad, but you can be happy, you just have to make the right choice, remain sad or achieve happyness?.