Marriage Goes Against Nature

[Amadeus]

Before I go into this let me first say that I am a Christian, even though my faith has been tinkering on destruction due to my pending divorce, I do believe in the teachings of the Bible.

Marriage goes against every fiber of nature, evolution and our genetic makeup. Marriage ultimately is doomed to fail. The reason it use to have a better success rate centuries and decades ago is because of survival, stronger family name and money ties, women not as independent, etc. I can eventually see a time where marriage will be a contract of time and not the "until death do you apart" fairy-tale. Nothing last forever really, nothing. Through my spiritual growth I've come to the realization that life and spiritual growth is about loss, dealing and accepting that loss, and doing the best you can with what you have not loss. You'll lose everything eventually like your youth, health, family members, jobs, material things, homes, money, and sadly marriage (hopefully at death, but more than likely not). So for those of us who are losing their marriage, our families, our daily coexistence with our precious kids, I only say to you "grow from it" and realize you are a part of nature and this is normal.

Your spouses, my spouse, loved me and was attracted to me in the beginning of our relationship. We both had so many flaws. Yes we worked on a few, but most of them remained. Nature seems to put a curtain over your partner's flaws. In your thoughts, nature's thoughts, you ignore these flaws because ultimately even if you don't know it your only objective, nature objective, is to procreate. We are a multitude of living cells who's only purpose is to survive by dividing and multiplying. Evolutionist believe that we come from cells evolved to simply organisms and eventually to the living mammals we are today. I'm a Christian and I still believe in evolution. Family members will point out these flaws sometimes in your partner in the beginning of the relationship, but you just don't see what they are seeing. You just know in your heart that they just don't know your spouse like you do (they don't know that your eventually offspring's life depend on YOU not seeing it). You "love" this person and they "love" you. In order that you solidify this potential procreation you marry and you celebrate what you and your spouse believe will be forever. Nothing is forever and everything in life has a bell curve shape. There is a beginning and an end to everything. So you start cranking out babies, as many as possible hopefully to satisfy mother nature. As the years go on your spouse and/or you start to notice those little human flaws that you ignored in the beginning of the relationship. The disgruntled spouse believes that they just appeared, but in fact it probably was always there. You suddenly become the devil in disguise and he/she just realized that they have been a fool all these years. You are lazy, abusive, uncaring, ugly, selfish, rude, etc. etc. Now you may ask, why does nature want this to happen? Simply put nature loves variety and change. She would prefer you to procreate with another spouse because it brings genetic diversity and frankly you two were never really meant to be together in the first place. Suddenly you are the black plague and someone else looks more attractive. Isn't it so coincidental how 9 out of 10 times when one partner wants to leave the relationship there is another man/women in the picture? How convenient huh? Nature at work again trying to get what she wants, more kids from a different partner.

So basically what I'm trying to say guys is, "don't beat yourself up too much because what is happening". Just remember, it's not your fault and it's not his or her fault, it's the relationship that is not working. You were prince charming or the princess when you first met your spouse. What is true marriage in the biblical sense? Marriage is about sacrifice and work. When the curtain is lifted on your flaws and weaknesses that is when the real work comes into play and frankly that is what real marriage is all about.

[Playlife]

Last couple of days I've read a website that basically says that sex geared at procreation naturally causes the alienation between the partners. (So that the next child would have different genes and bigger change of survival/procreation).

Solution? Don't have conventional sex. Bummer, eh?

[lasti]

You tell us what happened to your marriage but you don't tell us why EVERY marriage is going to fail. What happened to you doesn't happen to every one, does it? So I think there's no reason to say that marriage goes against nature. Just because it can't last forever (well, at the end every one's got to die), I don't see a problem with it.

[JimOfferman]

Amadeus,

You speak in terms of flaws, loss, sacrifice, weaknesses. I wonder how much of our success in life and relationships is tied to our outlook on things. I think it matters if you see the dark tunnel or the light at the end of it. Do you think a different outlook on your part could have made a difference?

I don't think we can blame our failed marriages on nature at this point. Relationships work or fail because of what we did or didn't do to sustain the relationship. I also believe that every new relationship, no matter how brief or how successful will only help us grow into better people.

I hope you will draw strength from all that was good in your past marriage and that you may grow a better relationship next time around!

[jester01]

Surely if you are married, you must have some control over weather the marriage lasts or not.I know people who remained married for over 50 years apparantly happy until one of them died.
If we believe that it is not natural to marry for life and we proclaim this belief then it will become a reality.

[Amadeus]

What happened to you doesn't happen to every one, does it? So I think there's no reason to say that marriage goes against nature.

Jester

If a marriage goes on "forever" then BOTH partners are working hard in order to make it work.

I wonder how much of our success in life and relationships is tied to our outlook on things.

JimOfferman

I can't force my partner to try to make it work. The chances that at least one partner will want to call it quits before death is very high (60 percent).

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by Amadeus

I can't force by partner to try to make it work.

No, you can't. You have no control over her. But your outlook on life does ripple through into everything you do and people, spouses included, do respond to that.

The chances that at least one partner will want to call it quits before death is very high (60 percent).

Ugh, that number again! Statistics don't say anything about you or me. Only about what everybody else is doing and then only if the statistics don't happened to be skewed in some way or another. If you are not a policy maker, statistics like that are basically useless!

[Dan.Linehan]

This is why your purpose and identity shouldn't be based on things that are temporary.

For example, if your goal is to see beauty in everyone you'll end up living a much different life than if your goal is just to stay married.

[Dan.Linehan]

By the way Amadeus. I know you think that you and I don't have the first thing in common. But I'll just say this. There have been many times in my life, too numerous to count, that I have placed my faith, hard work and heart into dreams and relationships only to have them slip away from me more quickly than I ever could have expected. It's a painful experience every time.

In a perfect world, what comes out of that pain is simply a better realization of what things we really can hold close to us as truths. We hone our definitions of what things we do consider permanent, and what ideals we can pursue in life that aren't temporary. We figure out what things we can hold dear that can't just be yanked away from us on a whim.

Real security comes from aligning yourself with things that cannot be impugned. You can still choose your emotions, even in the middle of a divorce. At the end of the day, why would her lack of reason define you?


Nothing real can be threatened.
Nothing unreal exists.
Herein lies the peace of God.

[Jamie]

EDIT (quickly, to cover my tracks)...

My view is that the world and our relationships are in a constant state of flux, or change. We should hold on to people very lightly, with love, and be with them because it's what both parties want on a moment to moment basis. I kinda see marriage as trying to hold the ever changing world (or more accurately, our relationship with our S.O) still, or to pin it down. Doing so is bound to very much alter the nature of the relationship, and perhaps kill some of it's freshness, freedom, and in the moment sponteneity?

I like the analogy of a butterfly (that's the woman), coming to land on my hand (be in relationship with me); she is free to come and free to go, always, in accord with her most heart felt desire. I only want her to be with me, so long as that's what she want's too. Marriage is a gilded cage, it forces the butterfly to stay, regardless of the inner promptings of it's heart. Seems so cruel to me.

I've never been married though..

[lasti]

@ Jamie: That's a nice analogy. I sort of have the same attitude towards relationship as you with your hand on which the butterfly lands.

[Angela]

I like the butterfly analogy, Jamie. But I also like the idea of making a declaration -- actually creating with language a structure in which me and my husband (or maybe it will be a different word than 'husband') really generate something that wasn't there before. I mean, my word has a lot of power, and to partner that with my man's word.... well, it just feels like that might be a wonderful thing.

Maybe our "wedding" vows would be more like:

I can be pretty sure that at some point we'll each want to murder each other. I am fairly certain that I will eventually really want to bone someone other than you. And there's no doubt in my mind that there will be moments when you irritate the hell out of me, and nothing less than Club Med Cancun (by myself) will counteract that.

And.... I love you from my bottom to my heart. In that love, I am committed to getting through any murderous urges with both our skins intact. If one of us gets involved in some activity of a hanky-pankous nature, we'll do our utmost to take 100% responsibility and do our very best to take care of the well-being of our relationship. And if I go to Club Med, you have my permission to get drunk and hang out with our loser neighbor Ken. Just please don't give him any money.

My word and yours are the most powerful thing we've got going for us, aside from the love and the lust. If and when the love and the lust ever subside, let's do our best to keep our word. Who knows -- with our word, we might just be able to generate love and lust together till the day one of us croaks. It's worth a try, don't you think?

I do.

[garentee]

great and realistic wedding vows. Hats off to you. G

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by Amadeus

I can't force my partner to try to make it work. The chances that at least one partner will want to call it quits before death is very high (60 percent).

That's true only if you marry one of the 20% of the compulsive divorcers.

Fact: 50% of all MARRIAGES end in divorce
also fact: 80% of all PEOPLE REMAIN married.

How do you reconcile these differences? People who divorce 2, 3, 4, 5 times. This 20% brings the rate waay down.


Until marriage is not connected with children, we will still want to be married. It is an instinct for us to want to unite with the parent of our child. Children need mothers and fathers. To miss one is to miss an important part of the child's development. Mothers teach children love, and Fathers teach children respect.

Both are essential to reaching adulthood with a good head on your shoulders.

Until that disappears, we will get married.

That is, if we first stop marrying for such short sighted desires like, oh, love.

In short, I disagree with the Amadeus' premise. Marriage absolutely does not go against nature. Men and Women fit together like puzzle pieces. We are different because we need the complement to complete our lives, and the lives of our children.

[robc]

Originally Posted by Amadeus

Your spouses, my spouse, loved me and was attracted to me in the beginning of our relationship.

Attraction is what it's all about.

Your partner lost their attraction for you.
The reason for this is because you caused this loss of attraction.

However I sense something more.

You are still attracted to your partner, you still love her and still want her back. In fact, I think it might even be safe to presume that you want her back so much that you constantly talk about the relationship and ask her to fix it and make it better so that you can get back together again.

That isn't working though is it. Probably not, in fact I bet you that it's driving her further away. She may even look at you with disgust, she might possibly think that you're pathetic.

Where is the man that she was originally attracted to? Are you still that same man? I will answer that for you... NO, you are not. You changed, you became someone she isn't attracted to, she lost feelings for you, doesn't want to be around you, would rather hang out with other friends, it's quite possible she is attracted to other men or another man... heck she may even be in another relationship with someone right now, secretly or out in the open.

How accurate am I thus far, I'm sure I'm close if not 100% spot on.

Attraction is what has caused this problem, you no longer are attractive to her. You've done things that have driven her away, you've lost value in her eyes, you're probably no where near as masculine as you once were with her. In fact, she is probably more masculine in your current relationship with you and you are probably more feminine with her. That is another part of the loss of attraction between the 2 of you, roles have been reversed. You no longer lead this relationship anywhere, she has all the power and you feel powerless to stop her and stop your separation/divorce.

Am I close to what's going on thus far?

Don't get me wrong, if you have kids, I'm sure you're a great father and I'm sure your wife realizes that and has a bit of respect for you in that regard. But she doesn't just need a father for kid or kids, she needs a husband, someone who is ambitious, masculine, takes charge, isn't an a _ _ hole, has tons of self worth & self respect, someone who has a great amount of self esteem, she needs a man.

Where did this man that you used to be go?

Yes divorce statistics are high, very high!
2nd & 3rd divorce rates are even higher. Once people fail, they set up a pattern of behavior where they will fail again, it's easier to pull that divorce trigger once you've done it the first time, you know what failure feels like and you won't stick around as long to go through all the motions again. No one is willing to fix themselves to make things work.

You expect your spouse to change and it will make things better but it won't.
The change that is required is on your part. Your spouse won't change, I can almost guarantee that (people can change I believe that but they only change to make themselves better and those are usually permanent changes but not to make other people happy, those kinds of changes are only temporary)

Change yourself... become a man again. Despite any & all mistakes you've made in the past with your wife, the greatest mistakes you made are with yourself.

You have value, lots of it. Start to believe it. Wake up!!!!
You want to turn this thing around, you want to believe you can save your marriage. Start off by assuming that the relationship is over, if it helps, go out and find a place where you can cry and get the emotion out of you and begin to heal. Yes assume it's over, let go of the emotions that are keeping you locked in your current state. Once that is done, reclaim yourself. Start to go out with friends, learn to be an individual again, not someone who is clingy & needy and attached to your spouse's hip. Go to the gym, even if you're in shape, go anyways, it will make you feel better to work out and sweat a bit, it fixes the chemicals in your brain, re-awakens the man that's been comatose inside of you for so long. Start to buy new clothes, re-invest in you, re-invest in the man that you once were and you have forgotten about because I'm sure you walk around looking like a tired, old person and you probably aren't very old at all. Get a haircut, something trendy and new. Get some new shoes. Stop frowning, start smiling all the time, if you can't believe that everything is all right, act like it until you can believe it. When you go out don't tell her where you are going, it's your personal business now, you're a man, take charge of your life.

Right now, the wife that is leaving you believes you are a scared little crying boy and she is using you to heal herself, you are her stepping stone to a new life - believe it because that is what is happening. She doesn't care about the person you currently are because you don't care about the person you are. The relationship you have with other people is a reflection of the relationship you have with yourself.

All you do is focus on failure & loss. That is so negative, why would anyone want to be around you if that's all you think about and act like?

You mention spirituality... Do you really believe that God created this planet and all these people along with yourself to be miserable? Give him more credit than that, what purpose would that serve? None whatsoever. He knew of your potential before you were born and all you've done is kept it locked inside and acted like a scared sad person. Unlock your potential, press forward, move on, become a great person for yourself and eventually for your child/children, set an example of success for them. Your children will record your actions in their head and repeat it, your behavior teaches them how to live their life. You can act bitter, negative, broken, hurt and insecure and you will teach them to do the same. Or you can act the opposite and teach them better. God has given you the ability to be extremely successful & happy in your life because it does him credit when you act that way, you are one of his success stories so it's about time you dropped this self-pity bull s h i t and started showing him thanks & praise for giving you life. He will help you in this life but he won't do it for you. Pick yourself up, clean yourself up, become the great person that he wants you to be because he loves you, and once you realize that the greatest force in the universe loves you & cares for you and has a great life planned for you if you're willing to listen to him, you will become a world beater.

Become a man again. Use this existing situation as your spring board into your new life. Show your wife that you are ok with what's going on and that you will survive without her. Having her in your life is just a want, a preference, not a necessity. Air, food, water are needs, your wife is just a want.

Stand up MAN, be counted, be acknowledged by yourself first & foremost. Take back your life, become the greatest person you can be for you first, don't worry about your wife anymore and stop being her emotional healing post, heal for yourself and move on.

If you do this correctly, your wife will notice and you may very well get back the wife you wanted or you may even learn that she isn't what you want anymore. Take back the power in your life and become happy, excited and exhilirated at this new chance and new life.

Ask and you will receive, believing is seeing so start believing in your great life and drop all of this self pity garbage. If you want to talk more, pm me but only if you're ready. Think about what I've said and if you're ready to change let me know.

Good Luck, I believe in you, God does too.

[ivorytickler]

While I agree from a biological perspective for animals, we're not like other animals. We think. While spreading your genes around is one way of trying to insure they get into the next generation so is sticking around and working together to raise the children you brought into this world. You actually jeopardize the children you already have by moving on to another partner (for example, the risk of a girl being sexually abused goes up something like 40 times when mom starts dating). That does not make biological sense so I'm not sure you can just blame biology for this one (probably more believabe if it's the man that leaves but why women putting their children at risk isn't going to have biological roots). We select partners because there is an advantage in raising our children with their other parent. If there weren't we'd just mate with whomever and have as many children as we can.

The dependency theory is questionable. There's still an advantage in raising your children with their other parent. It's much easier to get them set out on a solid path. So much psychological damage is done to kids when parents divorce. I can't see why biology would drive that.

[Amadeus]

You are still attracted to your partner, you still love her and still want her back. In fact, I think it might even be safe to presume that you want her back so much that you constantly talk about the relationship and ask her to fix it and make it better so that you can get back together again.

That isn't working though is it. Probably not, in fact I bet you that it's driving her further away. She may even look at you with disgust, she might possibly think that you're pathetic

robc

Sound the buzzer! Wrong. I haven't mentioned the marriage, begged her to reconsider, etc. in over a year. We are indifferent to each other and really get along for the most part.

Where is the man that she was originally attracted to? Are you still that same man? I will answer that for you... NO, you are not. You changed, you became someone she isn't attracted to, she lost feelings for you, doesn't want to be around you, would rather hang out with other friends, it's quite possible she is attracted to other men or another man... heck she may even be in another relationship with someone right now, secretly or out in the open.

robc

Of course I changed. Everybody changes. I think I've changed for the better. If this were 10 years ago she would be in love with me all over again. I just wasn't the man she wanted me to be in the first place. She married me in the hopes of changing me. I even confronted her over a year ago by saying, "you didn't love me when we met, you were in loved with the person you wanted me to be". She had a shocking deer in the headlights look on her face after I said that. She knew I was right.
She even told me, "you haven't changed at all, but I've matured and changed".

Don't get me wrong, if you have kids, I'm sure you're a great father and I'm sure your wife realizes that and has a bit of respect for you in that regard. But she doesn't just need a father for kid or kids, she needs a husband, someone who is ambitious, masculine, takes charge, isn't an a _ _ hole, has tons of self worth & self respect, someone who has a great amount of self esteem, she needs a man.

She doesn't want someone to "take charge". She wants to be in charge. She wants to call the shots and always has. She was sexually abused as a child and I feel has a major distrust for all men. Maybe rightfully so, but I'll always be the abuser and she'll always be the victim. This is what brings her comfort in life, even though I've never physically or emotionally abused her in any way. I was just apathetic in the relationship. O.k, so what, shoot me.

You mention spirituality... Do you really believe that God created this planet and all these people along with yourself to be miserable? Give him more credit than that, what purpose would that serve? None whatsoever. He knew of your potential before you were born and all you've done is kept it locked inside and acted like a scared sad person.

Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. (Mt. 10:37-39). Basically what the Bible saying here in my opinion is that you should be willing to lose everything for God which may include your health, marriage, etc. Jesus never married and for good reason and he advised his appostles not to marry as well. I can pray forever and it probably won't fix my marriage just like someone who has an amputated arm prays about God growing his arm back. It just won't happen, but we have to accept it.


I DO APPRECIATE YOUR DEEP INSIGHT THOUGH.

[Angela]

Originally posted by Amadeus --
Sorry, I think divorce teaches children how to be quitters and to give up on family. They feel like they are worth not being abandoned if the marriage stays intact. Having the same two parents gives children stability and a sense of security.
I'm not saying women should stay in a physically abusive home, but to use the excuse that it is healthier to leave a marriage because of fighting or because everyone is always unhappy is lame. So the next relationship will be happier? There won't be fighting and problems in the next relationship? Bullcrap! You'll be the same person in the next relationship and you'll attract the same kind of person.

Looks like things have changed for you. How will you counteract your divorce's teaching your child to be a quitter? How are you going to avoid attracting the same kind of person in your next relationship?

[Playlife]

What about swans? Don't they mate for life?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Amadeus

I was just apathetic in the relationship. O.k, so what, shoot me.

This stands out to me. In the other thread you questioned why she was doing this to you and lamented possibly being called a deadbeat dad. But you don't seem to be looking at all at how you contributed to this split. I don't think I would stay too long with someone who was apathetic about our relationship either. That surely doesn't feel good.

My only point is that if you keep shifting all responsibility for your current situation to her, you do nothing to grow for yourself and for whatever future relationships you have. I'm not saying that she has done nothing wrong, only that her issues are hers and you have your own to deal with.