Need some input: going through a separation

[robc]

Hey all, thanks for dropping by.

As per the title of this new post, I need some input, going through a separation.

Some background info: been married for nearly 8 years, we've been together for almost 17 years. We have 2 children. Our relationship has been rocky for many years but we've had our share of good times also but honestly a decent share of bad times as well; we moved into a new home at the end of last year and a month later we were separated (which really sucked to be honest), we just fought alot and quite a few times in front of our young children which isn't a good thing.

The separation wasn't a mutual decision, she decided it was time to part ways, I really wanted to go through marriage counselling but she didn't want to pursue it. She has quite a few friends that have gone through divorce and I think maybe (can't say for sure, they're her thoughts not my own) she saw how it was easy for them to move on so she wanted to do the same. I moved out for the past 6-7 months but I still took care of my family: paid the mortgage & bills at my home where my wife & children live and maintained daily contact with my children. My wife works a night shift position so I pretty much had the kids during every evening after school and kept them at our family home instead of trucking them over to my apartment everyday.

I am a good father (not just in my own words, my children genuinely love me and my friends, family & in-laws have always said the same thing and I don't mind hearing it either, it does make me feel good that other people see the amount of energy I invest in my kids and how much I love them), still have a great relationship with my in-laws. I have tried to be civil with my wife, offered her friendship and whenever she needs a hand with the children on the weekends when she is not working or whenever she needs to go out with her friends/have a night out, I never say no when taking care of my kids.

These past 6-7 months have been a learning experience for me. Aside from taking care of my kids, I have started investing in myself again and it's something I hadn't done for many, many years. I got a gym membership in November/December, I've lost about 30lbs of fat in the past 6 months and I'm gaining some muscle, starting to look pretty decent, started shopping again, enjoy wearing clothes that look good on me and fit properly, get my hair cut regularly, I've started tanning, went through counselling after a month of separation just because I found it difficult (being honest, it was difficult, still loved my wife and I didn't want a divorce), I found a group that provides support for people going through separation, divorce, widow, etc. and I found that the group sessions helped alot, made me realize I wasn't unique in my situation and helped me get over a few blocks in my head about my self-worth. I've started hanging out & going out with my friends more often and going out as much as I can, my career picked up, got a better job with the same company, better pay, which even includes travelling a little bit now as well. This last month was the greatest confidence booster, starting dating again, got hooked up on an online dating site and have gone on 6-7 dates with different women, not looking for a relationship (or an easy lay, I think I'll take it a bit slower right now, mind you I notice that women have become a little bit more "aggressive" then what I remember) but just looking to have fun during the dating process, meeting new attractive people, going out for dinner or out on activity dates, relaxing, having great conversation and just having lots of fun. I'm not into the bar scene, when I have gone, it's been with a group of friends just to have a few drinks and enjoy a night out.

It appeared that my wife had done the same thing months earlier so I decided to get off my duff and starting doing this as well and like I mentioned it's a great confidence booster, I'm literally feeling great again, found myself again if that makes sense, got my spring back in my step (damn near levitation sometimes LOL).

Everythings sounds great thus far and it is except for one little thing.

One of my wife's friends apparently heard that I had been dating recently. I'll be honest, I haven't been vocal about it, my personal life is my own and I don't need to be telling my soon to be ex-wife what I'm doing on my own time and vice versa. We lead our own lives and that's it.

Well... she got very angry, very angry. Furious may not even be a good enough word to describe her reaction. I really don't understand it to be truthful. Leading up to the separation we argued frequently and I found myself on the losing end of alot of those arguments. I don't like yelling but she does. And if I have to let out some personal info, I felt for the latter part of our relationship that things had turned around somehow, I became submissive, giving in to demands, never getting my way, feeling left out, seriously I felt like I was becoming more feminine if that's possible. For her, her voice got louder & louder, she got her way anyway she wanted it, I became low priority or no priority: I felt like I didn't have a place in her life anymore. I went to work, came home with a paycheque, paid the bills, took care of my kids and never took care of myself, friends would always ask me to go out and I would always make an excuse that I couldn't. I felt more of a room mate than a spouse at that point. When we finally separated, my wife told me in no uncertain terms that she didn't love me anymore and even said that possible she never did, she stayed with me because of the kids and wasn't happy. Definitely not an ego boost to hear any of that, especially when my self-worth & self-esteem was probably at an all time low. Even more honest, I literally begged her to reconsider, that I loved her and didn't want our marriage to end - that almost seemed to do the opposite, it pretty much pushed her away even farther.

Now I've turned my life around, have rediscovered my life, my self-esteem & self-worth is at an all time high and I'm feeling great. I was confident enough to start dating again after I convinced myself that my physical appearance was where it needed to be and that my mental & emotional health had been repaired. My wife hears that I'm dating again and goes banana's!

What happened? This is what she wanted. She told me she didn't love me anymore and possibly she never really did love me. She told me that she wasted alot of time with me and told me her life would be better once we were divorced. She hears that I'm dating and she gets extremely angry with me, crying, yelling, tells me that I've now ruined our marriage and that I'm hurting our children and it's throwing me for a bit of a loop. She has been going out with her friends, she's part of the bar scene again, , I'm pretty certain she has been dating as well but now all of a sudden that I'm getting on with my life and moving on, it's the end of the world?!

Am I missing something here? Why this type of reaction? I'd love any & all input on this, be blatantly honest with me, I can handle it I'm sure.

Thanks in advance... rob,wpg

[kboleski]

You aren't crazy. You haven't done anything wrong! I know this is just one opinion from one person, but please believe it! She made decisions, left you, went on with her life and was apparently enjoying it. She doesn't like it that you are dating again. In a way, you are hers! Kinda like that saying, "She doesn't want you, but no one else can have you either." I don't understand that. It is some kind of control, jealousy thing. Speaking of control, it appears to me that she has always controlled the relationship. Her yelling got her what she wanted. Just based on what you wrote, it seems that she always stong armed you or steamrolled over you to get what she wanted. No mind that you have wants and needs. No mind that you were sacrificing yourself to "do the right thing by the family." This is what everyone says to someone who has sacrificed "everything - meaning himself/herself - to take care of and provide for the family - find a balance. You HAVE to take time for yourself to achieve physical fitness, emotional wellness, financial security, spiritual health. The truth is, you will have to carve out that time while having a family. There is a way to take care of yourself in those ways while being married and having the responsibilities that come along with a wife and family, you just have to figure out how to do it. You seem to have found a way to balance yourself out. You are fit, seem emotionally balanced, financially secure, I dont' know about your spirituality. So, what I am saying I guess, is the things you have just done this last half of a year, are the very things you should have done for yourself throughout your marriage to keep that spring in your step! If and when you find yourself in another meaningful/serious relationship, please always remember to take care of yourself in these very ways that have made you feel happy and complete.

[robc]

Maybe it is as you say, she's having a good life, doesn't want me but also thinks that no one else can have me either.

Maybe she is just used to me being submissive and getting run over all the time that now that I'm moving on with my life, I won't be there to help her as much.

Maybe she needs me to be the way I am to make her life seem better?

I don't know. This is all very confusing.

I'm sticking to my guns though. I won't submit, I won't fall into the argument trap and I won't feel bad for moving on. She didn't want me anymore, she says she doesn't love me anymore and if that's what she wants, I guess that's what she can have.

I knew shortly after the separation while in counselling that you can't make someone love you. I wouldn't want to be with someone who I had to force to love me. If love isn't given freely, it isn't worth anything at all. Throughout the entire relationship, I always asked her why do you argue with me all the time, why are you so mean & angry to me all the time, her response was "because it's you". I tell you hearing that every time stung like I was hearing it for the first time. I don't want to be anyone's reason for a wasted life, I know she's just being mean when she says these things. We have 2 beautiful children that we love very much, there was some good in the relationship at one point.

As for the spirituality, I have found God again in my life. I haven't become the born again christian type but I am learning a little bit everyday. I don't focus on negativity anymore, I tend to put more focus on positive things and good things that have happened in my life and I make my life the way I want it to be now, instead of letting it happen to me, if that makes sense.

I was just very surprised & shocked by her response, it's almost as if she wanted me back but didn't want to say it or it's quite possible that I'm reading more into this. But seriously the response wasn't anything someone would have predicted. If you leave someone, tell them you don't love them anymore, proceed to have a good life and then your ex-spouse picks up the pieces of their life, repairs themself and starts to begin a new life of their own and then gets attacked for doing so, it's just an alien reaction. You would think it would be a win-win for both, both are moving on with their lives,etc. I don't have a girlfriend, I've just gone out on several 1st dates and a couple 2nd dates: I don't have a relationship with anyone new yet and still she blames me for doing this and tells me that I've ruined the marriage and goes totally berzerk: crying, screaming, yelling, ?!@$%!

It's like it was ok for her to do this and start a new life but as per her wishes I should continue wallowing in self-pity, maybe she likes me better that way?! She doesn't want me but she wants me?!

Again, totally confused by her response, it goes against any logic I can come up with on this.

[Angela]

You're not missing anything. She just wants what she wants, and she feels she is entitled to it because it's what she wants. You were "supposed" to pine for her, suffer, and remain single and celibate; that's what you would have done if you'd really loved her. Please don't be surprised when you hear her pull that old saw out of her bag of tricks: "I guess this means you never really loved me, I knew it all along." This is all just her old pain; it means nothing about you.

You! You are a catch, a prize, a delicious specimen! I hope you are starting to free yourself of the old patterns you found yourself in with her, in which you would put her well-being ahead of your own, subverting your own needs and desires to keep the peace, etc. I hope you are able to fully enjoy generous, loving, sexy, fun interaction with women who are a better match for you.

And I hope when your ex tries to give it to you with both barrels, you recognize that it's just her old stinky pain she's projecting all over you.

[kboleski]

Perfectly said Angela!!!! This is also just her usual selfishness bumped up a few notches. She really must have felt the sting of losing you/not having control over you anymore when she realized that you weren't pining after her. She must have thought she was IT, and you would just wither away because you would NEVER be able to move on after her. She must really feel good about herself. She really seemed to go over the top with her response to the fact that you had gone on dates! She MADE her decision. Now, she has to live with it!!!!!

I don't know how to explain it, but I have seen it over and over...wife leaves, husband gets life back together and moves on, wife gets jealous, wants him back. It is the weirdest thing. It is just a selfish, selfish, inconsiderate act of your soon to be x-wife. Don't give it another thought (if you can do that.) She really is pulling out some stops. She might want you back. She may see what she lost. It grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence. But, please realize that she wasn't good for you. Just like you have read on other threads, your spouse is supposed to be the constant supporter who will give you unconditional love and acceptance and who will sacrifice for you just as much as you do for her. Without writing a book, just remember all of the posts on other threads. Remember advice you have given. I remember commenting on how I thoroughly appreciate your wisdom and concern when reading your advice to ohers.

It seems that you will be able to offer someone a well balanced, loving, supportive, accepting relationship when the time is ready. DON't EVER settle for less than you deserve!!! Didn't I read where you wrote that somewhere? Angela is right, don't ever ignore your own needs and desires to keep the peace or to avoid a confrontation. When it is necessary, have your say. You have to speak up for your self, your needs. Women can read minds a little, but not like you think we can!!

f your own, subverting your own needs and desires to keep the peace, etc. I hope you are able to fully enjoy generous, loving, sexy, fun interaction with women who are a better match for you.

And I hope when your ex tries to give it to you with both barrels, you recognize that it's just her old stinky pain she's projecting all over you.[/QUOTE]

[kboleski]

OOPS, I somehow hit send, but I wasn't finished, and I hadn't finished erasing Angela's post. Angela is right again about your ex projecting. When she is going off on you like that, it CAN'T be over any action that you might have done. You are just getting your life back in order. She left on her own free will. There is nothing that you owe her. You owe it to yourself to do EXACTLY what you have done. Find yourself again. Live authentically. So, when she goes off on you, blames you, etc..., remember that she is just trying to project ALL of her guilt for her actions, having left you, feelings of jealousy because you ARE HERS, her jealous anger telling her "How dare he look so good, How dare he not not crawl into a corner and wither away because I left him", onto you because she can't handle the guilt or face the truth. Keep your chin up. You are doing all the right things. Don't buy into her games.

[kboleski]

robc, I forgot to respond to your post. Your ex is used to you being submissive. She had a routine going on how to always get what she wanted from you. Your new confidence and self respect is something that she doesn't know how to manipulate, so she tried yelling, blaming, over the top behaviour because she didn't know how else to get her way. Of course she wants you to wallow in self pity, that would stoke her ego, prove to her that she is so awesome that you can't live without her!

You don't need to be there to help her. You need to be there and be a good father for your kids. Remember being there for your kids isn't the same thing as being there for her. Your only concern should be building a life with your children and be happy while living yours.

Don't feel bad for moving on. You have to move on and get your life back on track. It is pretty obvious that she is only concerned with her selfish needs because any real friend would want the best for you and be happy that you are finding yourself again.

Her "because it's you" is so classic of someone that can't admit or face their own fault. You can't EVER say that to someone. It takes two to make a relationship work. You can't do it all by yourself. You didn't bring it down all by yourself either. Just the very nature of that statement really puts everything into perspective doesn't it? She has issues, selfishness, that she can't deal with, won't deal with, doesn't want to admit, so she is blaming you!

As for your renewed spirituality, I am glad that you have brought God back into your life. I belive that spirituality is an ongoing, daily effort. Your belief in Jesus and your faithful actions have to practiced every day to build a strong faith and relationship with God. I really hope you feel God's grace and love as you turn to him for help. He is helping you through this you know?!

You are on the right path. Be the best you can be for yourself, and be the best man and father for your children. That is all you can control. Don't worry about your ex anymore. She made her decisions and now she has to learn to deal with them on her own.

I hope this helps. It is easier to be objective for others than trying to see it and know it for yourself. You "know" exactly what you need to do and to continue to do!

[evelynlim]

Sometimes, people do not realise what they are missing until they lost it. Her ego is also at stake here. If she has really made a mistake about letting you go, she may not even want to admit it. It just seems to me that she wants to have a cake and eat it!

Guess you must really assess what you want from now. You've done pretty well so far. Congrats!

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Hey, rob. I think the other posters are right.

Maybe she sees how great you look and how good you feel about yourself now and realizes she's made a mistake. Maybe she never really knew what she wanted and was in pain and thought it was all about you, or made it so so that she wouldn't have to face what was inside herself.

No matter what the reason for her behavior though, you have to take care of yourself. I'd definitely be kind and calm with her for your children's sake (which I am sure you are), but aside from that try not to let her behavior affect you. Focus on your own well-being and that of your children. You said at one point that you didn't want this divorce. How do you feel about it now? If you two are going to go through with it, I would make it sooner rather than later. Get a good lawyer to secure your rights regarding your children and then only take care monetarily of what is ordered. If you want to spend more on your children that's great, but I wouldn't continue to support your ex wife. She's having it both ways and maintaining control.

I hope things calm down for you soon. Take what lessons you can from this for yourself, but don't try so hard to understand her behavior. I doubt she even does!

[robc]

When I said she went furious, I should have mentioned that it included pushing me, throwing things at me and punching me in the back when my back was turned to her while I was picking up the debris from her explosion.
Our daughter saw her yell at me, push me, punch, throw things at me, it wasn't a good thing. She got scared. I reassured her and told her everything was ok and that her mommy was just a little upset.

I asked my wife (is it just me or isn't it just a little weird to continue using that as her description?!) to drive the kids to her parent's house for a couple of hours and then to come back & discuss what had happened. She did. When she returned she was very quiet, apologetic, crying, the whole bit. I made it clear to her that she was never to raise her hands against me anymore, never to yell at me & use bad language like that again and also never to act so immature infront of our kids. I spoke with my daughter this morning on the phone and she told me that she asked her mother to apologize to me for hitting me, it was very sweet for her to act so protective of me but I told her not to worry about it and to just get ready for school and to have a good day.

Continuing on the discussion I had with my wife yesterday after she brought the children to her parents. I made it clear to her that she asked for the separation and that I had asked her to get marriage counselling and she told me in no uncertain terms that it wasn't what she wanted. I told her also that she was the same person who also told me she didn't love me anymore and possibly never did. She was also the same person who said that I was a waste of her life and had no value in her eyes. I let her know that I determine my self-worth & value, not her. I never said I didn't love her anymore, never made any requirements on her: that she had to be rich, drop dead gorgeous, look like a supermodel every day of the week, cook or clean for me, etc. What I did require from her was that she accept me as I am.

I also made it clear to her that she wanted me back now because I was moving on with my life, I was in the driver seat again, controlling my life, making myself look & feel attractive & confident again, taking better care of myself and if anything the separation taught me that I had lost myself and had to find myself again, which I have. I'm not just on this planet to be a father to my children, I didn't share a home with my wife just to share living expenses. My partner is supposed to take care of me just as much as I take care of them, they aren't supposed to make me feel small & worthless. It's supposed to be me & her against the world instead of her against me & the world and that's pretty much how I've felt for a long time. I also made it clear that I am an individual just as much as I was a married partner and that I will have a life outside of my relationship and maintain my individuality regardless of who I'm with in the future. I am not someone to be taken for granted and spoken poorly of to her friends. I am an important person to myself and expect to be considered as such by my partner, I have alot of value and I love myself and I won't be treated poorly again by anyone. That doesn't mean I'll be guarded and won't let anyone into my personal life again, it just means that I will be picky and make sure that any relationship that I pursue in the future will be mutually beneficial (very important) and that my needs will be fulfilled as much as my partners.

My wife took me for granted, always assumed I would be there, even when she left me. She assumed I would just sit in my corner and wallow in self-pity and never recover. I won't be that person anymore and I won't let anyone treat me that way again. I also made it clear to my wife that there are 2 people in this marriage and I'm not solely responsible for every problem we've ever had, I take responsibility for what I've done & my actions and I always tried to make things better and I told her that I never felt that from her: I felt as if I was always pursuing and she was always withdrawing - I won't be part of that scene anymore.

She sees that I've taken back my life, sees that I've improved myself for myself and I'm genuinely enjoying my life and possibly it makes her feel jealous or it makes her aware of what she is losing. It's like what they say, you never know what you had until it's gone. I think she is starting to see that now. I also told her this bullcrap about me ruining our marriage now some 6-7 months into the separation is just that, bullcrap. We're separated, how can someone ruin a marriage during the separation process leading to a divorce? If anything I've been there for her too much during this process and I'm moving on now and she won't have me there anymore.

She says now that she didn't want the separation. It wasn't her choice?! Well if I didn't want it, and she didn't want it, who made this decision? It became silly listening to her arguments after a while, nothing made sense and she knew it, she would say something and then contradict herself a few moments later. I did feel bad for her, she was crying, very upset, she wants me back, she tried to hug me & kiss me and tell me she misses me.

I'm not that easy, I know how much I'm worth now. I still care for her, I'd be lying if I said I didn't but I would also be lying if I said that this is what I want in a relationship. I want a real marriage, I want a friend - a really good friend, someone who values me, someone who will treat me right, someone who doesn't look for an argument in everything I say, someone who respects me, someone who wants to be with me, someone who is fun, likes to laugh and likes to have fun and someone who genuinely loves me.

I will continue to date and enjoy my life as is.

I told her that if she genuinely wants me back and wants to give our marriage a chance for success, she will pursue counselling/therapy for her anger and how she treats me, her family & friends. Where she will learn to be honest and to take responsibility for her life and not blame everyone else for her failures. I told her that maybe during counselling she will even discover that she doesn't want to be with me and at least she will be honest with herself. If she needs me to go to some of her personal counselling sessions with her and if her counsellor feels it would help, I will offer that too. If she can get over her anger & other issues and still wants a shot at making our marriage a success and if I'm open to it at that point (no guarantees), we can pursue marriage counselling but I won't put the kart before the horse.

I can be her friend for now, I've always offered her my friendship during this entire process, she was the one who refused it previously and now she wants that. I won't guarantee her anything more than that and I believe that is more than fair right now.

Thank you all for your feedback, I really appreciate it. I think I knew alot of what was discussed here, sometimes you need to hear other people say the same thing too just to make sure you're not going crazy plus it helps alot to discuss these things with people and get feedback (both good & bad) to get a wider perspective on the situation.

[Angela]

That's so awesome, robc. It sounds like you're taking very effective action for everyone concerned.

Just one thing... you might want to acknowledge your daughter a little more profoundly. When you told her "she's sweet to want to protect me, but she shouldn't worry about it", can you see where that's sort of diminishing what's going on for her? She is worried, and chances are it's not only wanting to protect you, but also to protect herself -- she wants her immediate environment to be happy and harmonious so that she can feel safe. She's perfectly right in stepping up and saying, "mom hitting dad does not work for me" and I think it would be a good idea to acknowledge her, let her know she's doing a good thing by being fully self-expressed and making a stand. Empowering her, in other words, rather than the "don't worry your pretty little head, I'll be fine" approach. Things are not fine for a little girl when her parents are violent with each other.

She sounds like a very cool kid. Nurture that.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Just wanted to say good for you for taking care of yourself and setting boundaries.

I also agree with Angela regarding your daughter. Kids know and feel way more than they are usually given credit for. I know that you don't want her to internalize this stuff. And I am sure that you really don't want her to worry. Of course not. But simply telling her not to will not take it away. You might even get the kids into some counselling if you aren't sure how to handle it yourself.

I hope that didn't come across as accusatory. I remember being that little girl so I really feel for her.

[robc]

Originally Posted by Angela

That's so awesome, robc. It sounds like you're taking very effective action for everyone concerned.

Just one thing... you might want to acknowledge your daughter a little more profoundly. When you told her "she's sweet to want to protect me, but she shouldn't worry about it", can you see where that's sort of diminishing what's going on for her? She is worried, and chances are it's not only wanting to protect you, but also to protect herself -- she wants her immediate environment to be happy and harmonious so that she can feel safe. She's perfectly right in stepping up and saying, "mom hitting dad does not work for me" and I think it would be a good idea to acknowledge her, let her know she's doing a good thing by being fully self-expressed and making a stand. Empowering her, in other words, rather than the "don't worry your pretty little head, I'll be fine" approach. Things are not fine for a little girl when her parents are violent with each other.

She sounds like a very cool kid. Nurture that.

You're right, maybe I am shielding her & my younger son from this. I just don't want them picking sides or feeling resentment towards their mother. I would never want to turn them against their mother. I tell them all the time to love her, listen to her and respect her just as much as they would with me. My little girl did hold her mom accountable for her actions the other day, she's mentioned it to her a few times already which I'm sure is making her mom feel great because what happened, happened in front of our daughter. Their mom is very sad for that, it's genuine too, she lost control and did something she didn't want to do in front of her kids.

Sometimes I think watching all these things happen makes them grow faster than they should. I want my kids to stay young for as long as they can, I don't want our problems to prematurely age them.

I guess that is me in a nutshell, protecting them against all the bad in the world, maybe I'm shielding them too much - I don't know, it can be very confusing sometimes, especially during these times.

Thank you for saying that she is a cool kid, she actually is very cool.
And a decent soccer player too I might add, I coach her LL 6-7 yr girls soccer team, she kicks butt just like the rest of them.

[robc]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

Just wanted to say good for you for taking care of yourself and setting boundaries.

I also agree with Angela regarding your daughter. Kids know and feel way more than they are usually given credit for. I know that you don't want her to internalize this stuff. And I am sure that you really don't want her to worry. Of course not. But simply telling her not to will not take it away. You might even get the kids into some counselling if you aren't sure how to handle it yourself.

I hope that didn't come across as accusatory. I remember being that little girl so I really feel for her.

Don't worry about coming across as accusatory, I asked for any & all advice and to be blatantly honest, no more sugar coating for me. I agree with you, I think kids do know & feel more than they are given credit for. I'm afraid of that though, at their age maybe they shouldn't be so involved in this, I feel like I need to protect them from this, I just want them to be little, I don't want them to grow up so fast, speaking from personal experience, it felt as though the problems I saw growing up in my own family made me grow up fast, worrying about the fighting & arguing all the time among other things, it wasn't good.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by robc

Don't worry about coming across as accusatory, I asked for any & all advice and to be blatantly honest, no more sugar coating for me. I agree with you, I think kids do know & feel more than they are given credit for. I'm afraid of that though, at their age maybe they shouldn't be so involved in this, I feel like I need to protect them from this, I just want them to be little, I don't want them to grow up so fast, speaking from personal experience, it felt as though the problems I saw growing up in my own family made me grow up fast, worrying about the fighting & arguing all the time among other things, it wasn't good.

I know. I witnessed my parents fighting a lot -- storming out, yelling, threatening divorce. I agree that it's honorable to try to protect them from dealing with the very grown up issues that are going on now. But, in a case like this where she has already witnessed the fight, I think it has to be addressed with her. You can let her know that she doesn't have to worry as far as taking sides or protecting either of you. Remind her that you and her mother both love her and her brother and that nothing can change that. Hopefully you and your wife can come to an agreement to make sure an incident like this doesn't happen again especially in front of the kids.

I don't disagree with your desire to shield your kids at all. Let them be children as long as possible. But when they do see fights or have fears, just address them instead of dismissing them. I know that it's not your intent to be dismissive, you merely really don't want her to have to worry about this. I think most of it will be listening for what she's really feeling and reassuring her. I just think that telling her not to worry will be ineffective. She is worried and with good reason. Just make sure she knows that she can always come to you and you will listen to her feelings and fears (same for your son).

[Angela]

Robc, I know you want the best for your kids.

Being committed to keeping them little is actually diminishing them, though, in a very real sense. They are involved; they are part of the family. Insisting to them (and yourself) that they should not worry about what they are worried about is basically informing them that they are wrong -- they shouldn't be who they are, and the things that impact them shouldn't impact them.

Here's this little girl who is holding her mom accountable for behavior that's really ugly and impactful. Here's a little girl who is looking for acknowledgement from you -- "this isn't right, dad, right?" Having been a little girl myself, and having felt very diminished by the "don't worry, you're just a little girl, you shouldn't be worried about this stuff" -- I would have felt much more empowered if my feelings had been acknowledged. "You know, you're right, Honey; throwing things and yelling is not a good way to run a family. Thanks for pointing that out; I'm really sorry that we forgot and acted so stupid and hurtfully to each other and to you. We're going to make a commitment that we will stay alert and take care of our family so that everyone feels safe and supported, and we expect you to hold us to that. Please keep telling us what's going on for you, because talking about stuff is a really powerful way to make sure we're all feeling good."

Even a very small child can understand and feel empowered by that. Kids need to feel listened to; they need to feel like what they have to say matters. That's wayyyy more important than "staying little."

There I go with my scripts again!

[robc]

Originally Posted by Angela

Robc, I know you want the best for your kids.

Being committed to keeping them little is actually diminishing them, though, in a very real sense. They are involved; they are part of the family. Insisting to them (and yourself) that they should not worry about what they are worried about is basically informing them that they are wrong -- they shouldn't be who they are, and the things that impact them shouldn't impact them.

Here's this little girl who is holding her mom accountable for behavior that's really ugly and impactful. Here's a little girl who is looking for acknowledgement from you -- "this isn't right, dad, right?" Having been a little girl myself, and having felt very diminished by the "don't worry, you're just a little girl, you shouldn't be worried about this stuff" -- I would have felt much more empowered if my feelings had been acknowledged. "You know, you're right, Honey; throwing things and yelling is not a good way to run a family. Thanks for pointing that out; I'm really sorry that we forgot and acted so stupid and hurtfully to each other and to you. We're going to make a commitment that we will stay alert and take care of our family so that everyone feels safe and supported, and we expect you to hold us to that. Please keep telling us what's going on for you, because talking about stuff is a really powerful way to make sure we're all feeling good."

Even a very small child can understand and feel empowered by that. Kids need to feel listened to; they need to feel like what they have to say matters. That's wayyyy more important than "staying little."

There I go with my scripts again!

I did point out that pushing, hitting & yelling are not right.
Their mom apologized to them as well and told them as much which I thought was nice & proper, I didn't have to tell her to do that either - she realized it wasn't right (thank god).

I made it clear to my kids that we don't hit or push or yell at each other in this family, regardless if mommy & daddy are separated or not. It's just not the right thing to do. I also told them that they're not allowed to do that with each other, with us or with anyone else and that no one is allowed to hit them or push them either. I told them that mom & dad don't spank them (which we don't) because we don't need to do that to get our point across with them (counting down from 5 and the threat of being sent to their room or the dreaded looming spectre of some soap in the mouth is all that it ever takes to keep them in line and thankfully they don't call our bluffs too often).

But you are right, we should probably acknowledge her more and talk more about it with her just to make sure she is clear on what's going on and clear up any questions she may be having on this and reinforce what is right & wrong behavior.

As much as I do right by my kids, I know I do alot that isn't. Still looking for that manual on how to raise my kids to be "normal" while living an "un-normal" life. My fear is that I can't teach them to be normal and do right if we can't provide them the examples to learn from, my greatest fear is that they repeat all of our mistakes when they have relationships & families of their own.

[robc]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

I know. I witnessed my parents fighting a lot -- storming out, yelling, threatening divorce. I agree that it's honorable to try to protect them from dealing with the very grown up issues that are going on now. But, in a case like this where she has already witnessed the fight, I think it has to be addressed with her. You can let her know that she doesn't have to worry as far as taking sides or protecting either of you. Remind her that you and her mother both love her and her brother and that nothing can change that. Hopefully you and your wife can come to an agreement to make sure an incident like this doesn't happen again especially in front of the kids.

I don't disagree with your desire to shield your kids at all. Let them be children as long as possible. But when they do see fights or have fears, just address them instead of dismissing them. I know that it's not your intent to be dismissive, you merely really don't want her to have to worry about this. I think most of it will be listening for what she's really feeling and reassuring her. I just think that telling her not to worry will be ineffective. She is worried and with good reason. Just make sure she knows that she can always come to you and you will listen to her feelings and fears (same for your son).

I shouldn't just tell her not to worry, I should be more real about it and tell her that fighting is wrong and we made a mistake about fighting and doing that infront of the kids and that we will make our best effort not to fight like that in front of them again. My discussion with my wife included that as well and she agreed that it was wrong and that she will not do that again and I will do the same on my part.

I tell my kids that we love them everyday and that they need to listen to their mom and love/respect her & what she says just as much as they do with me (my wife often complains that they bond with me more and they listen to me more than they listen to her, what a problem to have, my kids listen to me), I always re-inforce that with my kids.

Again that's my worry, my kids have seen so much fighting that they're going to repeat the same behaviors when they grow up. For my part, I won't allow that to happen again, I will ask my wife to stop fighting when we're with the kids at the same time. I do honestly believe she understands what happened and will stop herself from letting that happen again: it wasn't good for us and it definitely wasn't good for my daughter, thankfully my son was in the other room playing.

Thanks again for all your support guys, it's really good to hear this feedback from you all, it really is good stuff.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by robc

I made it clear to my kids that we don't hit or push or yell at each other in this family, regardless if mommy & daddy are separated or not. It's just not the right thing to do. I also told them that they're not allowed to do that with each other, with us or with anyone else and that no one is allowed to hit them or push them either. I told them that mom & dad don't spank them (which we don't) because we don't need to do that to get our point across with them (counting down from 5 and the threat of being sent to their room or the dreaded looming spectre of some soap in the mouth is all that it ever takes to keep them in line and thankfully they don't call our bluffs too often).

Yeah, and all that is a load of hypocritical crap if mommy throws an ashtray at daddy's head.

I don't think the kids are doomed to play out the crappy behavior, if mom & dad are willing to take responsibility for their own crappy behavior and talk openly about what works and what doesn't.

Sounds like mommy's having kind of a rough time.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by robc

Again that's my worry, my kids have seen so much fighting that they're going to repeat the same behaviors when they grow up.

I think it would be more likely for them to repeat it if it's not dealt with openly now. It's a great learning experience for you and your wife as well as your daughter. I think you can definitely turn the tide of predominate experience in your kids' lives from this day forward. Best wishes on working this through. I know it stinks and it's hard and it's confusing. But you love your kids very much, that's obvious. Now I will tell you not to worry so much . Just consciously do your best and let your love for your kids be the standard.

You have learned a lot about life from this experience since you've tried to and you can share that knowledge with your kids now rather than them learning it the hard way later on. I think fights can stay with you when you experience them as a child, but I think how you handle it afterward and going forward is what will have the greater impact.

I wish you all the best.

[Angela]

Yup, I agree. You are a good dad, and your kids are clearly in a loving home with you.

Now go out with some hot babes!

[robc]

Originally Posted by Angela

Yeah, and all that is a load of hypocritical crap if mommy throws an ashtray at daddy's head.

I don't think the kids are doomed to play out the crappy behavior, if mom & dad are willing to take responsibility for their own crappy behavior and talk openly about what works and what doesn't.

Sounds like mommy's having kind of a rough time.

As far as I could tell, she was having a great time. If she was having a rough time, she did an incredible job of hiding it. She also did a great job of showing me that she was having the time of her life, going out regularly, looking very attractive for her benefit and possibly someone else's because it wasn't done for my benefit - she made sure to let me know that.

She goes out regularly with her friends, gets all done up, looking attractive, staying out late, going out to parties, going out to the bars with her friends, restaurants, possibly dating, etc. That was my question as to why she just blew up when I started to pick myself up and do the same. I didn't understand it - she had easily moved on and had done so quickly right after the separation began, it was apparent. I was the one holding on still until one day when it finally clicked in my head and I finally accepted the truth that it was over and I said to myself that it really was over and that I had to start living my life no matter how difficult it was. I started putting our pictures away (wedding, personal, us with the kids, us by ourselves, etc.), stopped wearing the wedding ring, put our personal stuff that I brought with me to my place away and really started to believe it was over. I apologized to myself and said "Sorry Rob, it was never meant to be". I had wished with all my heart that something would bring her back to me and then one day I just stopped wishing, I just accepted that this was life and this is how it's going to be and it's time for you to move on and accept what has happened.

As soon as she heard that I was moving on and living my life again and had actually starting dating, she went crazy angry! She accused me of ruining our marriage because I had recently started dating during our separation. I was totally knocked for a loop! How could I ruin the marriage several months into the separation just by going on some dates? What had I done other than the fact that I finally moved on and went on some first dates? If she was scared of losing me now, what happened to the period of time in the separation up until now when she said she didn't want me anymore, she was happy to have lost me then. I can only assume that she can't believe that I went ahead and got my life back together and picked myself up and had the courage to start dating again - I have seriously done nothing else to get this kind of reaction from her: she is angry with me but there is more to it: I can almost sense that she is attracted to me again - it is the weirdest thing I have ever experienced, I can definitely feel that from her. Maybe I'm reading into this too much but you know when someone is attracted to you, it's an invisible/intangible feeling or vibe you get.

Very strange indeed that someone who almost beat the !@$#$ out of you the other day is at the same time attracted to you, maybe I have a head wound that I haven't taken care of from yesterday (LOL - I have to laugh about it now otherwise I think I'll start to cry about it) but I can definitely feel this from her.

Tell me I'm wrong (seriously) but I swear this is what I'm feeling.

[Angela]

I've heard that story often -- we all have, I think -- where as soon as the rejected party finally gets to the point of letting go, the rejecting party goes batshit. This woman had all kinds of expectations and demands about what you *should* do and who you *should* be during your marriage, didn't she? It sounds like she has a very hard time granting real freedom to you or anything else who she deems is getting in the way of what she wants. And by real freedom, I mean accepting you exactly as you are and exactly as you are not. Imagine how painful it must be for her, to be constantly arguing with reality and to be thinking things *should* be other than what they are. Yikes!

(p.s. being compassionate about her pain doesn't mean you have to reconcile with her! )

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by robc

she was happy to have lost me then

She hadn't actually lost you then. You were still committed to the relationship and did not want it to end. She now has to deal with the realization that it's over and it may not be what she expected. Does that make sense? Before, she knew that she had you in the wings, waiting. Now, she has to face the reality of the decision she's made. Trust me, these things that seem like a really good idea when one is in control, tend to lose their luster when the other party actually goes along with it. I would refuse to play a game with her.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Angela

Imagine how painful it must be for her, to be constantly arguing with reality and to be thinking things *should* be other than what they are.

I can vouch for how painful and confusing that is. It makes people do crazy things. It's too bad you can't have this realization for her .

[robc]

It's been a very comfortable couple of days since monday.

My "wife" has been very nice and has really controlled herself by not starting any arguments. It's very out of character for her but I don't mind it. For my part, I make sure not to discuss any relationship issues or problems and keep the conversations limited to small talk.

She has agreed to go to counselling for herself, deal with issues she's having, anger & control among other things. I promised to help out as much as I can with the kids when she attends her appointments. I've never seen her take the initiative like this before, it's a hint of someone I knew at the beginning of our relationship.

For my part, I won't fall into a trap of being sucked in and being belittled again. No more being submissive and feeling self-pity and bad about myself. I like my new found confidence & improved self-esteem - my goal is to keep it where it's at and if I can bump it up a notch too. No more feelings of being insecure and never being able to find someone who can make me happy. Apparently there are thousands if not millions of single people out there and only 1 of me, those odds sound pretty good. It feels good to personally feel good again and I realize that when I'm really happy and showing it, my kids get a bit of a boost to their already normally hyper happy & ecstatic states - it's a good thing.

It's quite possible that starting to show my confidence & much improved self-esteem is what threw my wife off balance. So used to running over someone that when it finally stopped, she didn't know how to cope with it - an alien experience for her.

Just thought I'd let you know, it's going well and I'm going to maintain this momentum for myself for as long as I can: indefinitely would be great, who knows, anything is possible. The path I'm walking on right now is my own, I'm not being a follower anymore, I've taken real responsibility for the direction of my life and I'll continue to do so first & foremost for myself but also to set a good example for my kids because I want them to be happy, strong & independant when they grow up.

Thanks again for all your support and the great feedback. It is very much appreciated.

[Angela]

I'm so glad for you. You are being inspiring. I really love this line:

Originally Posted by robc

Apparently there are thousands if not millions of single people out there and only 1 of me, those odds sound pretty good.

Wishing you well.

[robc]

Originally Posted by Angela

I'm so glad for you. You are being inspiring. I really love this line:




Wishing you well.

I'm not vain, far from it but the statement still is valid and not just for me.
Everyone has to realize that being single isn't the worst thing in the world and if they're worried about finding another person, they should stop worrying. So many people in the world and I'm sure that the specific kind of people they are attracted to are out there, still available and waiting for someone to meet.

The line used wasn't original by me, to be honest, I took it from Kanye West's tune "Stronger", .... "there's a thousand you's there's only one of me" but when you think about it, it's so very true and holds true for everyone.

If you're partner is abusive (and abuse doesn't just have to be physical, it can be mental, emotional, verbal, financial, etc., taking advantage of the trust in the relationship is abusive also), you just have to realize that if you're partner won't stop that behavior and continues to hurt you even when you tell them to stop, you can stop that behavior yourself by getting out of that relationship and be single again. Learn to enjoy the person you are again, go to the gym, go out with friends, get some new clothes, do new things & activities, meet new people and just enjoy being you and rediscover yourself. Sometimes you can also act as a wake up call to a spouse who has treated you quite poorly by doing these things but don't do these things for that purpose, do these things for you and start learning that you have do take care of you first.

It's like being on an airplane and receiving the pre-flight instructions, they tell you to put on your oxygen mask first before putting it on your children. You have to take care of you first before you can take care of anyone else. Alot of people lose sight of that fact when you're in a relationship and maybe it's your fault and maybe it isn't when this happens. We all need a wake up call every now & then.

[Lea]

I agree with most of what others before me stated. I just have one more to add.

You first stated that even after moving out, you continued your usual financial responsibilities to the family. i.e. the mortgage and so on, as well as always being there to babysit your children whenever she needed a sitter. She had it sweet, her cake and eating it too. That is until you started dating again. Then it hit her, the possibility that you could find someone to occupy your interest and may be remarry some time in the future. You were basically still taking care of her as you did while living as husband and wife and as a family. She's no dummy, when she heard that your dating, she knew that could and most likely would change in the future.

[robc]

Originally Posted by Lea

I agree with most of what others before me stated. I just have one more to add.

You first stated that even after moving out, you continued your usual financial responsibilities to the family. i.e. the mortgage and so on, as well as always being there to babysit your children whenever she needed a sitter. She had it sweet, her cake and eating it too. That is until you started dating again. Then it hit her, the possibility that you could find someone to occupy your interest and may be remarry some time in the future. You were basically still taking care of her as you did while living as husband and wife and as a family. She's no dummy, when she heard that your dating, she knew that could and most likely would change in the future.

She realized that she wouldn't be able to control me anymore and that I wouldn't wait around forever anymore. I'll always continue with my responsibility to my family and I will always be there to take care of my children.

Funny you should say babysitting, I was taken to task on that point from a friend a while back. I'm not allowed to call it babysitting when it's my own children, it's called being a parent - I thought it was funny when that was pointed out to me.

We will sell our home in a couple of months and we will have joint custody of our children. We will still live relatively close to each other so that the kids can go to the same school they currently attend and it will be easier to swap the children back & forth between our 2 locations since we will still be living close to each other.

We are trying to be friends with each other, it was hard explaining it to the children about what will be happening, they are young and my daughter is definitely emotional, it hurts me to see them feel this hurt. My wife appears to be genuinely sorry now, she apologizes on a regular basis and that is something I never thought she would do. She used to be the person who regularly told me she didn't love me anymore, hated me, swore at me and tried to make me feel very small when we spoke to each other. She has apologized for all of that and is trying to be a friend, I haven't seen that side of her in what seems like forever. I wouldn't be honest if I said that I didn't want to try again because truth be told I do love her (and always will), but there is a large part of me that still cannot trust her because of the pain I felt from her, if I could trust her again by just believing her words we would probably be together right now but I need more than just words, I need consistency of action on her part to show me that she can be a loving partner and I need time on my end to heal from the hurt that was caused.

I was at a friends recently celebrating his birthday (I was also best man at his wedding and I'm the godfather of one his kids) and they had just celebrated their wedding anniversary and I congratulated them, I was very happy to see that they still cared for each other and loved each other very much, it is a really good relationship that they have, the kind that people look at and should try to emulate. Among the many cards they rec'd from family & friends congratulating them on their anniversary, I read the cards they gave each other (- I asked them, they didn't mind), specifically what they wrote in those cards to each other. If you had read them, you would think they were sitting beside each other, copying each other word for word about how they felt about each other. They told each other that they think about each other every day, they were lucky to have a best friend for a partner, how much they love each other and that they feel those feelings are stronger today than when they first met and got married. I was a little jealous and it's probably normal given the situation.

This is what I always wanted in a marriage and what I always wanted in a partner, someone to call my best friend, someone who would take care of me as much I would take care of them and always be excited to be with me. I recognize that relationships of this nature require a dual responsibility: both partners have to be fully invested to make it work. I also realize that she isn't totally at fault, I contributed quite a bit to the marriage problems. So just as I'm angry at her and her behavior and what she has done to me, I'm also angry at myself for the things I did that contributed to the failure of our relationship - I won't ever say that I did everything right and she did everything wrong.

Thanks for the reply back Lea, it is appreciated.