.define what "a real woman" is right here.

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by Angela

Hi, Yossarian. I just want to say that from my new perspective of Way Beyond 100% Responsibility, I would say just the opposite... part of the solution (to expanding more and more into who I really am: Infinite Joy and Abundance) is recognizing that this is a brilliant illusion.

But that's for another thread.

I'm totally with you, but the paradox is that, as you say:

"Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment... chop wood and carry water."

We can recognize that this is illusion, for indeed the physical world certainly is. And yet this illusion has purpose and this illusion is not for nothing.. this illusion is in fact an equally sacred part of God.. and so we work within the illusion to better the illusion while simultaneously (some would say Paradoxically) recognizing that it is illusion.

And right now part of the Work to be done is generating equal rights for Men in this illusion. Women have discovered their power and that is wonderful, but now Men need to rediscover their power and it starts with social consciousness.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by yossarian

We can recognize that this is illusion, for indeed the physical world certainly is. And yet this illusion has purpose and this illusion is not for nothing.. this illusion is in fact an equally sacred part of God.. and so we work within the illusion to better the illusion while simultaneously (some would say Paradoxically) recognizing that it is illusion.

Or we don't. Either way, it's still illusion. By the way, what do you think the purpose of the illusion is?

And right now part of the Work to be done is generating equal rights for Men in this illusion. Women have discovered their power and that is wonderful, but now Men need to rediscover their power and it starts with social consciousness.

Well, I totally agree with you that that is your work to be done, but I don't think men need to rediscover their power, although it would be great if they did! And I acknowledge you for taking on such a big game -- I'm inspired by it.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by yossarian

The fact of the matter is that there is a very serious problem with misandry in the modern world and I think that is what SmartAlx is driving towards.

From a personal perspective, the solution is exactly what Angela and Rose talk about. But part of the solution is also to recognize that this is real and to remove the stigma that if a man complains about Men's Rights, he is just a whiner who is giving away his power. This is not true. I feel an obligation to stand up and make this known, not for myself, but for all the boys that are growing up today and indeed for fellow men throughout the West.

Who are taught that it is natural that women score higher on tests and attend University in higher numbers. Who are taught that they must simultaneously do whatever a woman asks of them, while at the same time taking leadership but also deferring leadership when a woman demands it. It's this strange form of half-chivalry and it is a major force that is killing community.

I won't disagree that misandry is just as much a problem as misogyny in today's culture, but in this case, SmartAlx post was a diatribe against women and what's more, it's totally off the mark -- none of the things he claimed are true of me or any women I know. It's like if I made a post picking all of the worst traits cobbled together from all the men I ever met or heard of and then said this is what men are like, all of them. That's certainly not the ideal way of stating your case. Just like men are on the defensive from feminism, it puts women on the defensive from men. We'll just end up in a pendulum situation going back and forth from misogyny to misandry.

While I believe strongly in equal rights, I don't believe all women are the same or all men are the same. We have gender differences as well, which as I've stated in other threads I believe are more conditioned than inbred. But the world doesn't need women to follow SmartAlx's ideas about what a woman is. Why can't we all just be who we are and accept that. We don't need to sqaush all the progress that has been made for women, we just need to stop bashing men (which I don't think has happened with the same frequency as woman bashing in this forum). I wasn't ever taught that women are better than men, only that we are equal in rights and most abilities and should be allowed to pursue what we like.

While I understand that many men have been been indoctrinated into some extreme form of feminism in which men are less than women, that's not the original aim of feminism...equality is. Equality of rights. Men like SmartAlx seem to want us to just go back to the way things were, when women were just homemakers and baby machines, helpless and in need of a rescuer. I think that's taking it too far. I like being allowed to make the choice for myself as I am sure most women do, whether that choice be homemaker or CEO.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by Dharma

"Controlling your thoughts" is actually consciousness becoming aware of it's game of denial and making changes. The thoughts change or cease because consciousness chooses differently in the moment.

I agree with you Dharma. When I "change my thoughts", I experience a shift of consciousness. I think my new thoughts are a result of this shift, just like the new emotions are a result of it too. However, it's easier to talk about changing one's thoughts as the cause for the new emotion. That's something everybody can practice. We all can observe our mind (= break the identification), choose a thought that feels better, focus on it for 20 seconds and experience this shift. This way it's easier to explain, and easier to learn. How do you expalin to someone how to change their consciousness?? Is it really relevant that the thoughts are not what really creates?

Originally Posted by yossarian

Angela and Rose assume that he is actually talking about himself and then reply as if he is really only speaking of himself.

No, it's clear to me that he's talking about some social phenomenons, not about himself.

The content of his rant is not what I'm interested in though. Honestly I don't care anymore about all this gender roles and gender rights and gender problems stuff. I'm at peace with that inside of me now, so I have no need to discuss it.

I chose to reply because what I saw when I read his rant is a person (I don't care about his gender) feeling angry, frustrated, powerless and bitter. So I tried to help this person not to feel that bad anymore. That's all.

You're always talking about yourself too when you post such a violent rant. It's your pain shining through.

[yossarian]

[To aspiring clarity] Yeah, I agree with you. I think SmartAlx himself would agree that he went overboard. I just want to bring some acceptance to this thread and I can identify with SmartAlx's frustration.

There is also a culture of combativeness that has been carried into this thread. In normal society if you even mention the rampant misandry that has escalated directly at the hands of many well intentioned feminists, you get attacked. Similar to how anyone who criticized Israel is called anti-semitic, anyone who points out Misandry is often called a misogynist. Happily that kind of thing doesn't happen so much on the Pavlina boards. I hope we can all recognize that this is a force in society - especially the media, government, and education, and then make a conscious decision not to propagate it. If we don't make this conscious decision, often we unconsciously propagate it.

If you look around these forums you'll notice a lot of disenfranchised men. The entire "Pick Up" community is based around the concept. Many of those men respond to misandry with misogyny. This is a problem. Many women respond to misogyny with misandry. Also a problem. Being conscious of these facts helps to dispel the grip they hold us in.

Originally Posted by Angela

Or we don't. Either way, it's still illusion. By the way, what do you think the purpose of the illusion is?

The purpose of the illusion is to give us adversity so that we may overcome/transcend adversity and thereby grow.

Originally Posted by Angela

Well, I totally agree with you that that is your work to be done, but I don't think men need to rediscover their power, although it would be great if they did! And I acknowledge you for taking on such a big game -- I'm inspired by it.

Many men are socialized to forget their power in a similar way that 19th century women honestly believed that they could not have orgasms.

You have to have either studied it or grown up in the modern day to experience it. Consider that 90% of elementary teachers are women. Consider that boys routinely make up the far far majority of detentions, suspensions, and drop outs. Are these facts unrelated?

Where do boys learn to behave?

Certainly not from the female teachers who they spend all day every day with during their formative years.

Certainly not from their fathers who they see a few hours a day, at most, if they are lucky.

Boys need adult male rolemodels. These simply don't exist in the day care or educational system. They sparsely and rarely exist at home. The most exposure boys get to adult males is on TV - and on TV what do men do? They are either the fat bumbling idiotic sports-obsessed beer-swilling sitcom man with the beautiful intelligent compassionate wife, or they are violent sociopaths.

Sociopaths and idiots are the majority of male rolemodels that boys get. It's a big problem. Girls at least can look up to their 90% female teachers or the beautiful intelligent compassionate sitcom wives. And when beauty is overly glamorized by the media, at least there are forces that counteract this like the feminist movement. There is no masculist movement to tell boys that they needn't be muscle-bound alcoholic jerks.

Social consciousness of misandry is a first step.

Equal rights under the law is the second step. (see the forum I linked earlier if you don't believe women are given far more rights under the law than men)

I want to see a masculist movement that is not opposed to feminism but that works with it to stop the damage being done to boys without harming the progress that feminism has made.

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

No, it's clear to me that he's talking about some social phenomenons, not about himself.

The content of his rant is not what I'm interested in though. Honestly I don't care anymore about all this gender roles and gender rights and gender problems stuff. I'm at peace with that inside of me now, so I have no need to discuss it.

I chose to reply because what I saw when I read his rant is a person (I don't care about his gender) feeling angry, frustrated, powerless and bitter. So I tried to help this person not to feel that bad anymore. That's all.

You're always talking about yourself too when you post such a violent rant. It's your pain shining through.

I know exactly what you mean, and I can tell that you're trying to help directly with the negative emotions that SmartAlx was venting. The purpose of my comment is to say that I think people can feel like they are being ignored when they are responded to in that way.

It's kind of like SmartAlx says, "Looks like it's going to rain, those dark clouds are blowing over here, don't you think?"

And then you reply, "You should sing a song to deal with your issues of sadness. Stop giving your power away to the dark clouds."

It's productive advice, but it's kind of ignoring his question and makes him feel ignored and even dehumanized.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by yossarian

Boys need adult male rolemodels. These simply don't exist in the day care or educational system. They sparsely and rarely exist at home. The most exposure boys get to adult males is on TV - and on TV what do men do? They are either the fat bumbling idiotic sports-obsessed beer-swilling sitcom man with the beautiful intelligent compassionate wife, or they are violent sociopaths.

Sociopaths and idiots are the majority of male rolemodels that boys get. It's a big problem. Girls at least can look up to their 90% female teachers or the beautiful intelligent compassionate sitcom wives. And when beauty is overly glamorized by the media, at least there are forces that counteract this like the feminist movement. There is no masculist movement to tell boys that they needn't be muscle-bound alcoholic jerks.

Excellent analysis there, Yossarian.

When I young, around was seven or eight maybe, I realized the men I met in real life (at church and in school) were much more masculine, intelligent, loyal and funny than anything I saw on TV. Except maybe Dan Conner on Roseanne. There were lots of good people around. That says a lot for how great my upbringing was, looking back on it. We lived on some acreage in the country, the men I met were always farmers and friendly small town types. Warm, hearty folks.

I always knew that these friendly, funny, loyal outdoorsy types were examples of how "real men" act, regardless of what I saw on TV. I knew because I saw these great adult role models all over.

I can't imagine growing up in the inner city, or in some ghetto, where all I would have seen was negative stereotypes on TV, and then even more negative stereotypes in real life. I certainly wouldn't be the same person today.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by yossarian

It's kind of like SmartAlx says, "Looks like it's going to rain, those dark clouds are blowing over here, don't you think?"

And then you reply, "You should sing a song to deal with your issues of sadness. Stop giving your power away to the dark clouds."

It's productive advice, but it's kind of ignoring his question and makes him feel ignored and even dehumanized.

If he feels ignored and dehumanized, then it's his responsibility, not my problem. He's creating this himself - I have no power to "make" him feel anything. Hehehe, yeah, the 100% responsibility religion

But seriously, I do get what you're saying yossarian, and you're right. Unfortunately, it's true the other way around too. Had I reacted to the content, I would have ignored his pain. The pain is just what I noticed more, in fact even in an overwhelming way.

It's like someone crying "oh God I'm suffering so much because of these dark clouds, the weather makes me have such a headache, and I'm so sad about it!" and I answer "oh, yeah, looks like it's going to rain."

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

It's like someone crying "oh God I'm suffering so much because of these dark clouds, the weather makes me have such a headache, and I'm so sad about it!" and I answer "oh, yeah, looks like it's going to rain."

That's a good analogy, Rose, and a good one for you, too, Yossarian. You recognize that we have created this illusion so that we can expand back into who we really are -- infinite joy and abundance -- and yet at the same time, you still buy into the illusion, so things like misandry (thanks for the new word) occur for you as "problems." Another way to look at it is as a game -- one that you're completely committed to playing, and as I said, one that inspires me. But as long as you buy into the illusion (much as you acknowledge that it IS an illusion), and you believe that your problems are really problems, the game feels serious and deadly, rather than what you "know" it to be: the fun and enjoyable game of expanding into your infinite self.

Same with SmartAlx, except on a different scale. He's not yet at the point of recognizing his own power, as you mentioned (sorry to speak of you in the third person, Alx), so pointing to the expansion game is beyond his ken at the moment. Right now, he's just trying to survive overwhelm, and one of the ways that shows up is his rant in his thread -- a wild attempt to control women and therefore reality, while at the same time declaiming that you can't control reality! Talk about your paradox.

So, just like my analogy in which George is drowning in three feet of water, you could stand around and say, "oh, poor George, that must feel really awful -- I can understand how uncomfortable you might be!" which wouldn't really be that effective in saving poor George's drenched lungs. Or you could holler out, "George, stand UP!" which sounds so, oh, harsh, doesn't it?

Help doesn't always come in the form you pray for.

[yossarian]

It seems that in situations where time is not a huge factor, the approach that the professionals use is to first empathize and respond to the logical content, and then to offer the advice.

Originally Posted by Angela

But as long as you buy into the illusion (much as you acknowledge that it IS an illusion), and you believe that your problems are really problems, the game feels serious and deadly, rather than what you "know" it to be: the fun and enjoyable game of expanding into your infinite self.

Yeah this is a very big point, one I'm trying to exemplify in my life. We can still recognize the problems and still work to solve them while not "buying into" as you said.

This is definitely my "adversity" at the moment You see, even the notion of illusion as illusion is illusion

[Angela]

Originally Posted by yossarian

You see, even the notion of illusion as illusion is illusion

It's a problem!

[Angela]

Yossarian, I think you may have missed the compassion (not empathy -- I don't need to actually feel what SmartAlx feels) and logical response earlier in the thread -- it's a long thread.

When you talk about the problem of recognizing problems and still working to solve them while not buying into them.... I think, and this is not just semantics, by the way, that one thing you could do is let go of recognizing problems.

What I mean is: well, let's use Alx's overwhelm as an example. For him, it's a problem. He feels like it's an obstacle to being able to live out his hope and dreams. Now, what if he were to shift his perspective (I'm not saying you *should*, SmartAlx, I'm just speculating) to "I'll handle it." In other words, to take his focus away from "this is a problem" and put it on "This is a fun challenge." Again, I'm not talking about mere words; I'm talking about a shift in the way the overwhelm looks. (Although I must say, the word "problem" does have some awesome power of overwhelm! ) It's like changing how fast the tennis ball appears to be moving toward you, merely by practicing, enjoying, and getting more skillful at the game.

Now, what if you were to do the same thing with your "problems"? What if you let go of "this is a problem" and shifted to a new perspective on it, one that focuses on the fun of how powerful you are, and how infinitely joyful it would be for you to play the "wipe out misandry" game? Maybe it would be less about wiping out hatred and more about generating understanding. Or maybe something else -- you are so limitlessly creative, why bother with problems? (except in the game sense, of course.)

In my life there are no problems, and I'm committed to not generating any more of them. (except in the game sense, of course.)

p.s... some of you might think I'm talking about denial or naivetee or willful blindness to problems, but it's something else entirely. Yossarian knows that.

[yossarian]

I think that is a really great way to express the notion of illusion. I'm going to use it.

Of course, in day to day life when you present the "problem" of misandry to other people, it tends to inevitably have to be framed in the form of a problem even if you don't actually think of it in the typical way that people think of problems.

To me there are two main aspects of this particular "solution".

One is just informing society that such a thing exists, because most people don't even know it exists. The other is actually providing solutions to human beings that they can use and be empowered by.

On a personal level I am all about your style of framing. But when I'm not talking with people on the Pavlina forum, I'm at a loss how to present this issue without creating a "problem" in the mind of at least some of my audience. It seems to me that consciousness of the behavior is basically the largest step. Once you are conscious of an undesired behavior, the total solution is generally not far away.

[Angela]

Yeah, I know what you mean. Even here in the forums, even here in this thread. For me, it's been like learning how to talk all over again. You know, just carefully explaining that "responsibility" is not "fault" is involved enough, but when I start talking about Way Beyond 100% Responsibility, or the concept that there is no such thing as a problem outside of yourself! Oy gevult!

It is an awfully fun game, though.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by Angela

when I start talking about Way Beyond 100% Responsibility, or the concept that there is no such thing as a problem outside of yourself!

So, when are you going to start a new thread to explain what this Way Beyond 100% Responsibility concept is? Or have you already started such a thread? I've heard you refer to it a lot in passing, but never really more then in passing! You have an inquiring mind here

[Angela]

Originally Posted by seeker5

So, when are you going to start a new thread to explain what this Way Beyond 100% Responsibility concept is? Or have you already started such a thread? I've heard you refer to it a lot in passing, but never really more then in passing! You have an inquiring mind here

Well, it all began with the spinning ballerina thread (the expression of it started, anyway, the actual experience started a little before that.) You're right, I should start a thread, and not only that, I should get my ass in gear and get my website up! Oh, Angela, stop shoulding me.

Thank you for the kick in the butt, Seeker. I'm on it.

[pianoperformer]

Yes you should, darn it! I want to read what you have to say!

I vaguely get the point but it's little more than intellectual understanding at this point.

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

I agree with you Dharma. When I "change my thoughts", I experience a shift of consciousness. I think my new thoughts are a result of this shift, just like the new emotions are a result of it too. However, it's easier to talk about changing one's thoughts as the cause for the new emotion. That's something everybody can practice. We all can observe our mind (= break the identification), choose a thought that feels better, focus on it for 20 seconds and experience this shift. This way it's easier to explain, and easier to learn. How do you expalin to someone how to change their consciousness??

I agree, people are more used to their thoughts than their consciousness. Certain things are easier to explain if I just keep it in the realm of thoughts.

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

Is it really relevant that the thoughts are not what really creates?

If I read the forum, thought has a terrible track record of getting manifestation right. For most it doesn't work at all. Then people say, well, you're not doing the LOA or I-M right, you need more emotion, you need to imagine and feel that you already have it (while totally ignoring what is, the moment, the only point of power you have) or you need to take action, or follow a process.

Manifestation happens, there's no process or effort involved, and there's no time delay. The consciousness is convinced the logic of the mind is the way to go. Its creates step by step, and the mind can watch the process as it unfolds. Except that's all a sham. The mind too comes from consciousness and it will never see manifestation unfold because it is part of the manifestation. It's late to the party every time.

And the mind hates that. So it will come up with something new, The Secret or something else to keep the denial going. If thoughts don't create, then what? OMG, I have no control over what happens. And if things are going to continue the way they are going, my life is going to be hard, I will be unhappy, and I will have no hope. I'm just along for the ride and I'm scared s---less.

Wouldn't it be better to think thoughts create? At least you'll have hope??
(hope is denial too )

Thought as creator tends to resist the moment and current conditions. Wanting for something different than what you have just adds denial to the moment. And that denial will get mirrored back to you.

So how to improve conditions? Or a better way to say it would be how to let the moment evolve? Be in the moment. Receive/appreciate the moment fully. This includes yourself as creator. The more you can stay in the moment, the less denial you will have mirrored back to you, and your experience will begin to flow and take on a magical quality.