.define what "a real woman" is right here.

[SmartAlx]

Rose, didn't I tell you not to get into the religion of personal responsibility?

*And please don't get into that religion of personal responsibility here. I was a child. I was taught very early that my wife would work and the world at large (including discussion groups like this) did nothing to teach me that, just in case, I should prepare for being the sole provider.

If you are created to be a certain way, you can't be anything but that way. You are trapped. There are 5 influences on us: Nature, Nurture, Self, Creativity, and Luck. Ignoring luck, Nature and Nurture have an EXTREEEEME influence on the other two. They can completely nullify or suppress someone's ability to use self and creativity to get them out of situations. If this has happened to someone then how can they be held resposible? Responsibility has nothing to do with their actions. Self has been completely removed from the equations used to make decisions.

I'm not saying that this has happened to me, but you people put waaaay too much stock in self as an influence and YOU don't want to take responsibility for OTHER people. The world is far too individualistic these days.

[Jenny]

SmartAlx,
If you want a serious discussion without all of the dramatic over-the-top speeches I'll play as I find some of the issues you've posed interesting.

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

If you are created to be a certain way, you can't be anything but that way. You are trapped. There are 5 influences on us: Nature, Nurture, Self, Creativity, and Luck. Ignoring luck, Nature and Nurture have an EXTREEEEME influence on the other two. They can completely nullify or suppress someone's ability to use self and creativity to get them out of situations. If this has happened to someone then how can they be held resposible? Responsibility has nothing to do with their actions. Self has been completely removed from the equations used to make decisions.

I'm not saying that this has happened to me, but you people put waaaay too much stock in self as an influence and YOU don't want to take responsibility for OTHER people. The world is far too individualistic these days.

I'm not exactly sure what you are arguing here...is this somehow tied to the theory of evolution? Where exactly do the five influences you mention come from? Nature and nuture make sense to me but please explain the thought a bit more behind self, creativity and luck. Could you also elaborate on how they interact in your model?

As far as books, how about I throw a couple back at you to consider.

The Moral Animal


The Blank Slate

Both of these books examine humans from the perspective of evolutionary psychology and are quite worth the read. Neither of these books, however, go so far as to competely discount the self from the equation.

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

And this is done all the while knowing that women today like to show just how strong they are. I mean really, being a "strong woman" today is something to aspire to, isn't it?

Okay, this might be totally off the mark and I'm willing to completely abandon the idea so let's not argue about what I just said. I just brought it up because the realization raised the interesting point that women want to be this way today, but Men HAVE to be this way, and it made me wonder what you think the differences of being a Man/Woman are.

Again, if you are arguing from a perspective of either evolution or evolutionary psychology than I suggest you consider your statement above regarding women aspiring to be strong in a different light. Perhaps the environment in which humans live has changed so dramatically in the past century or so that traits such as strength are more - or at least equally -adapative to the soft, feminine traits you seem to associate with real women. Perhaps the lines are becoming blurred as to the traditional traits of men and women but then I think (again in an attempt to follow your argument) that it is worth considering what role environment has in this change (nature). You might want to consider viewing this with a little less anger towards "women" who in the view you've outlined don't appear to have all that much to do with this change in "roles" as individuals. If humans are responsible at all it is likely that men have just as much to do with this change as women as they both respond to a changing environment.

Just a thought...

[Jenny]

Originally Posted by Jenny

Perhaps the lines are becoming blurred as to the traditional traits of men and women but then I think (again in an attempt to follow your argument) that it is worth considering what role environment has in this change (nature).

Just a thought...

I imagine one could also make a case for a change in nuture as men have changed their role within the family as have women.

[Apple Eye]

Originally Posted by Jamie

Also, I have to say, I'm sick of these men vs women threads; why can't we have some "how men and women work together in harmony" type threads?

Me too! Why are there so many? I don't really see how they can add to our lives in any meaningful way.

Originally Posted by Spartan

The trouble is what are these so called differences, besides the physical ones? In my 20 years experience of life I haven't noticed any innate non-physical differences that hold for every boy/girl.

I agree. First of all, the physical differences are obvious, and I think people often make a bigger deal of them than is necessary. If anything, the physical differences make a good metaphor for human relationships in general - we complement one another. We're supposed to work together rather than operate under some strange kind of power struggle.

The innate differences are much more difficult to grasp, and I'm not convinced they stick to strict gender lines. A lot of what people list as feminine or masculine, for example, sound more like personality traits and interests to me.

For example, isn't fashion really about having fun with the beauty of the human body? My theory is that some people enjoy putting different colors, patterns, and textures together just like an artist does when painting a canvas. Except the human body is the canvas in the case of fashion. Also, people who are into fashion have a good sense of how to put outfits together. Does anyone watch the show "Jon and Kate Plus 8" on TLC? Kate's husband actually helps her pick out clothes because she doesn't have a clue what works and tends to go for bland colors, while he has a good fashion sense.

Originally Posted by Spartan

Sure there are the socially conditioned ones, such as girls liking pink and boys liking blue. Yet I have met goths who hate pink and only wear black!

It's so funny you brought that up. I came across something the other day that made me laugh. This is from the Ladies Home Journal, 1918:

There has been a great diversity of opinion on the subject, but the generally accepted rule is pink for the boy and blue for the girl. The reason is that pink being a more decided and stronger color is more suitable for the boy, while blue, which is more delicate and dainty, is prettier for the girl.

Quite ironic! Anyways, I never took too much stock in femininity and masculinity being ascribed to particular colors - how is that even possible?

And what about all the similarities? We're all human beings, when it comes right down to it, with fears, dreams, aspirations, hopes, trials, tribulations, and challenges to face. We all experience joy, sadness, happiness, rejection, heartache, hardships etc.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by Apple Eye

Me too! Why are there so many? I don't really see how they can add to our lives in any meaningful way.

You know, if they bother you, you don't have to read them at all. I tend to be more of a lurker in these types of threads rather then being a participant, and I don't read all of them, but I find them interesting and quite beneficial when I do read through them. There are views of certain posters who tend to post in these type of threads that I find very interesting, thought-provoking, and beneficial to my life and to my understanding.

[Bitsy]

...man is born to be intellectual, that is, to think from the understanding, while woman is born to be affectional, that is, to think from her will; and this is evident from the inclination or natural disposition of each, also from their form; from the disposition, in that man acts from reason and woman from affection; from the form in that man has a rougher and less beautiful face, a deeper voice and a harder body; while woman has a smoother and more beautiful face, a softer voice, and a more tender body. There is a like difference between understanding and will, or between thought and affection; so, too, between truth and good and between faith and love; for truth and faith belong to the understanding, and good and love to the will.

- Emanuel Swedenborg, Heaven and Hell

[thirial]

"Men conquer worlds. Women conquer men."

[Apple Eye]

Originally Posted by seeker5

You know, if they bother you, you don't have to read them at all.

That's true. Perhaps I'll take that advice.

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by Apple Eye

Me too! Why are there so many? I don't really see how they can add to our lives in any meaningful way.

Maybe it's because there are a lot of people (men and women), who relate and interact with the opposite sex in a dysfunctional and ultimately, frustrating way.

Just an idea! ... and I'd include myself in this catagory too, but I don't want to start fighting with women; I want to improve how I relate and interact with you lot - so I can get to the good stuff.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Jamie

Just an idea! ... and I'd include myself in this catagory too, but I don't want to start fighting with women; I want to improve how I relate and interact with you lot - so I can get to the good stuff.

Jamie, why not start by making a thread like you encouraged others to do earlier in this thread (rather than making more "what is a woman/man" - type threads)? What can men and women do to improve our understanding of each other? How can I improve how I relate to the opposite sex? How can I have more peace in my relationships? that sort of thread. What do you think?

[Jamie]

Yeah, I'm intending to do just that Angela, eventually.

It's a fascinating area (I think so at least); how we relate to other people, and I think there's a lot we can learn about ourselves, from how we communicate with and relate to others.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

Rose, didn't I tell you not to get into the religion of personal responsibility?

SmartAlx, why should I do what you tell me to do?

Besides, taking 100% responsibility is not a religion, it's an empowering choice.

If you are created to be a certain way, you can't be anything but that way. You are trapped.

Given my heavily dysfunctional family, given the crap that happened to me when I was a child, and given what I was taught back then, if that was true, I couldn't be anything now but a depressed alcoholic living in an abusive relationship. Oddly enough, I'm far away from that. Because some day I chose to take responsibility for my feelings and for my life, and gradually transformed the depressed addicted carpet that I had become into what I am now.

You are free not to make the same choice. That's perfectly ok. Please feel free to marry a woman you don't really find attractive, to lead a life you don't really want, to feel angry and frustrated and to blame everything on your education, society, and the evil feminists. If that makes you happy, that's wonderful.

I personally doubt that it'll make you happy, that's why I'm pointing out another solution. You're now speaking from a place of no-power, and I assure you, you CAN take this power back. Taking responsibility doesn't mean saying "yeah, it's all my fault." Taking responsibility means aknowledging that you create your feelings with your own thoughts. By consciously choosing your beliefs, you have the power to control how you feel and thus how you behave.

You feel emasculated, powerless and dissatisfied because of how you think, not because of some bra burning girls in the seventies. The day you'll realize that, you'll take control over your life again, and when you're in control, you have the power to create whatever you want. Like a wonderful relationship with a soft, gentle, needy, nurturing lady who has dreams about being a stay at home mom.

You can have everything you want. It's up to you to reach for it. And that means, changing your mindset. If you don't want to do it, that's fine too, I don't mind. It's your life, not mine.

YOU don't want to take responsibility for OTHER people.

That's true. I don't want to take responsibility for other people, except for the cat I live with, because she needs me, and when I met her at the animal shelter, I committed to be responsible for her till she dies.

Fellow human beings however don't need me. They're not dependent on me. It's not my job to take care of other people's business. I think the world would be much healthier if everybody took responsibility for their own feelings and stuff.

By blaming others you're giving them a lot of power over you. Does it feel good, SmartAlx?

[lasti]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

Stop emasculating us!

Are you afraid to become more like a woman? Why? Is there something wrong with us?

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

SmartAlx, why should I do what you tell me to do?

Because I didn't want to get into this argument

Besides, taking 100% responsibility is not a religion, it's an empowering choice.

You can't take 100% responsibility. It's impossible. To believe so is, well, a belief system, hence, a religion.

Given my heavily dysfunctional family, given the crap that happened to me when I was a child, and given what I was taught back then, if that was true, I couldn't be anything now but a depressed alcoholic living in an abusive relationship. Oddly enough, I'm far away from that. Because some day I chose to take responsibility for my feelings and for my life, and gradually transformed the depressed addicted carpet that I had become into what I am now.

Good for you. Something enabled you to take responsibility and remove the negative influences on your life. But not everybody is as lucky as you. Gang members for example have it particularly difficult. Many get into a gang before they achieve any kind of emotional, mental, spiritual maturity that would enable them to keep from getting into a gang. But once they are in a gang, it's EXTREMELY difficult to leave it, and no amount of personal responsibility is going to make it any easier.

You're now speaking from a place of no-power, and I assure you, you CAN take this power back. Taking responsibility doesn't mean saying "yeah, it's all my fault." Taking responsibility means aknowledging that you create your feelings with your own thoughts. By consciously choosing your beliefs, you have the power to control how you feel and thus how you behave.

Boy, that suuure sounds like a belief system to me. How is that not a religion?

Believe me, I've been trying for 20+ years to take the power back. Other things outside of my control get in the way. Life is like that for some people. I don't expect you to understand because life has given you opportunity to take control and you probably just do not believe that life can be that controlling and unfair. But it can. And not everybody CAN take control, even if they try.

And to answer Angela's question earlier, THAT is what I want to achieve here... to open this forum's eyes to the fact that not everybody is given the opportunity to take control. We are a cooperative society and often times we need help. You will of course agree that a drug addict needs professional help. But without people coming TO HIM he will never get the help he needs. How many drug addicts check themselves into a clinic because they want to take responsibility of their lives? Few. Someone has to go out of their way to encourage them. People who lack control in their lives are like that. They need other people to help them to gain control. But what I have found is that society hates people with no control. Society takes advantage of people without control. With the exception of extremes like Hitler*, society keeps people without control down. And I want society to do the responsible thing and help each other.

If everybody put each other first, then everybody would put you first. Isn't it better to have a hundred people looking out for you than just one? THAT is the society that I want to live in. It's not going to happen anytime soon, but we can't get there by doubting its effectiveness. Without discussing the benefits of such a society and encouraging each other to be that way we'll be stuck with crime, poverty, and addiction forever.

THAT is my purpose here. The first key is to get everyone to understand that the world NEEDS people to PROACTIVELY support one another, as opposed to passively supporting one another. Why don't people admit that? I just don't understand it. It's because many people believe that it's possible for 100% of the people in the world to take control. And that's just not true.

*There were a LOT of influences over Hitler's attitude that had nothing to do with personal responsibility. He was a drug addict, he had syphilis, and most importantly he was emotionally unstable. Without that, he might not have been the megalomaniac that he turned out to be.

[lasti]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

If everybody put each other first, then everybody would put you first. Isn't it better to have a hundred people looking out for you than just one? THAT is the society that I want to live in. It's not going to happen anytime soon, but we can't get there by doubting its effectiveness. Without discussing the benefits of such a society and encouraging each other to be that way we'll be stuck with crime, poverty, and addiction forever.

THAT is my purpose here. The first key is to get everyone to understand that the world NEEDS people to PROACTIVELY support one another. Why don't people admit that? I just don't understand it. It's because many people believe that it's possible for 100% of the people in the world to take control. And that's just not true.

I don't know what this has to do with the thread, but it's your thread, so...

It does not work that easy: One has to find love in him- or herself in order to be able to love other people. Becoming selfless means to stop first all those selfish thoughts and feelings (like shame, guilt, fear anger or desire) inside you. The level where you can be in a real selfless state is a high level. You can read this in Steve's Article "Levels Of Consciousness". While it may be true that there are people who need help they cannot help others as well if they don't raise their consciousness. They would rather drag them down.

Whether you have 100% control of your life or not cannot be proved. It's a matter of belief: Some people believe that we manifest everything in our lifes as they think we can completely create our (subjective!) reality. Other people believe that we have to suffer from the guilt (karma) we have from our former lifes which means also that you have 100% control. If you believe you can't control your life, it's your decision. But this does also mean you can't change a lot. And personal development is about change.

[lasti]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

Boy, that suuure sounds like a belief system to me. How is that not a religion?

This is not a believe system just because he talks about beliefs. Every one believes something, even if they believe "nothing". But you decide what you believe. So you can change your own reality. And again: Talking about beliefs doesn't mean that the discussion is religious.
There is also an article from Steve about changing the context, but I don't remember the title. Maybe somebody could post the title or a link so SmartAlx gets what I am talking about.

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by lasti

This is not a believe system just because he talks about beliefs.

That's not why I said it was a belief system. It was this...

Taking responsibility means aknowledging that you create your feelings with your own thoughts. By consciously choosing your beliefs, you have the power to control how you feel and thus how you behave.

Try telling a hormonal pregnant woman that she has the power to control her feelings with her thoughts. Nature has too much of a grip on her to keep from getting upset now and again. In fact it has too much of a grip on ALL of us to keep us from getting upset now and again. We all get emotional. When emotions get out of hand, we lose control.

Just an example of one way many people lack control in their lives. They are prisoners to their emotions.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

You can't take 100% responsibility. It's impossible.

Right, just like it's impossible for you to change the direction that the ballerina appears to spin, until suddenly it's possible after all.

To believe so is, well, a belief system, hence, a religion.

Yes, a perspective of 100% responsibility is a belief system and religion, in exactly the same way that a screwdriver is a belief system and religion. Or a spinning ballerina optical illusion, for that matter.

I think it's interesting that you are aiming to "open the eyes" of the people here to your own limitations. It reminds me of the person who announced that the folks who played with the optical illusion were all idiot dunderheads, because "it spins the way it spins and you can't change it, and if you think you can change it, you're an idiot dunderhead! You're dangerously delusional!" (I am paraphrasing. ) And then later, when he could see it spinning in the other direction: "oh. right. I see it now."

As long as you are trapped in your own perspective, it's important that others be trapped, too -- I think that might be for comfort. But the gang member, you, me the hormonal pregnant lady... everybody is infinite power and abundance. Everybody has the power to take on personal choice. You might not be able to see it, but it's there!