Men and Women: The Real Problem and It's Not What You Think

[SaberToothDream]

"There's an ever rising population of aggro men in this country and women have no one to blame but themselves. Men are hurt, angry and confused- even if they're unaware- and with good reason." This is an interesting article from a woman's perspective on the differences between men and women and that it might be more beneficial to accept men the way they are rather than trying to change them. She tells men to reclaim their power and seize their role as men. She says that if she had to date women, she would "smother most of them in their sleep." A powerful wakeup call for men and masculinity. Definitely worth a read, whichever side you take on the issue.

Men and Women: The Real Problem and It's Not What You Think | PeopleJam

[JimOfferman]

Wow, that was a lot better than I thought it would be.

I agree with the author - let men be men and women be women. Amen!

[Jenny]

Nice link, thanks.

[jaamkie]

hm I do rather disagree with this article- the crying thing, it isn't that women don't want men to cry, it is that women don't want men to wallow in self-pity and act like helpless victims- and I think most men expect (or ought to expect) the same of women. I think when we want men to be "more like women" we want them to be more like the idealized woman (which I see as a rather balanced creature- equally fair to call it the idealized man), not the bitch or victim stereotypes- we want world peace not from passive-aggressive maneuvering but from the genuine strength to face violence with creative non-violence and reconciliation, we want a sense of belonging not from cliques but from a recognition of our common humanity...

[Lanya]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

Wow, that was a lot better than I thought it would be.

I agree with the author - let men be men and women be women. Amen!

And Awomen! Let's not leave out the other gender, now...

[Old Soul]

Good article!!

A little tear now and then from a man is a good thing though, :-)

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Something I just thought of. Yes, men and women both have emotions. We tend to express them differently (there are always exceptions). However, I don't know that this is as innate as people keep saying. I've worked with kids a lot and the little boys and little girls all tend to be very expressive of their emotions. Only once they've gotten a little older and heard "big boys don't cry" a few times or been told they're being a sissy do they start to exhibit the behavior usually considered indicitive of men dealing with emotions. I just don't think it's all biological. We've trained a lot of it in.

I don't disagree that there are differences between the sexes. And I agree with the article that we should respect and embrace them rather than try to change another person. I just believe, from my own experience, that it's not all down to biology.

[Marco Polo]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

Something I just thought of. Yes, men and women both have emotions. We tend to express them differently (there are always exceptions). However, I don't know that this is as innate as people keep saying. I've worked with kids a lot and the little boys and little girls all tend to be very expressive of their emotions. Only once they've gotten a little older and heard "big boys don't cry" a few times or been told they're being a sissy do they start to exhibit the behavior usually considered indicitive of men dealing with emotions. I just don't think it's all biological. We've trained a lot of it in.

Have you never heard "big girls don't cry"? I thought that one was more common. Probably just my own bias...

I do however believe the biological differences are quite important, and playing them down is just going to hurt us. By consciously developing them we have a much better shot at reaching our full potential. Men, women, hybrids - all of us.

Pretty much every human society, even those in relative isolation, organized themselves in remarkably similar ways. Male domains - female domains, always based on the "stereotypical" attributes. Primitive societies evidently recognized key gender differences (cognitive and physical) and acted on them: physical strength, childrearing talent, bla bla bla... societies quite rightly recognized these differences. If they tried to organize themselves based on some false notion of perfect "gender equality" they probably wouldn't last long in a harsh environment. So these key differences were embraced, and probably exaggerated to a great extent by cultural practice and translated into larger societal structures. All very clever.

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

I don't disagree that there are differences between the sexes. And I agree with the article that we should respect and embrace them rather than try to change another person. I just believe, from my own experience, that it's not all down to biology.

There's lots and lots of conditioning, and gender roles have been exaggerated in the past like I said.

I don't think this is the case any more - today real gender differences are played down and denied. "I'm a woman, hear me roar! I can do everything a man can do!" Hence this backlash against the current situation we're seeing... uhm, on the internet where people can actually say what they think, lol.

Some things are just... like insanely obvious. Sex hormones - testosterone and estrogen. These chemicals have a massive impact. Hard to get around that.

And then there's overall physical strength, fat distribution, differences in brain size & structure etc etc. All exaggerated by society, yes, but they're exaggerated because they existed in the first place.

Speaking of kids, why is it that small boys are naturally more assertive and more likely to go against authority? I'm absolutely convinced it's biology. This stuff happens before they could possibly be molded very much by society.

When I was 3-6 years old I would wrestle all the time, beat up my dad... whatever! I smashed his glasses in (find me a girl who did that!). All this before I watched even a minute of violent TV or was conditioned by the big patriarchal brainwashing boogey man. That urge to wrestle and box was just so instinctive. Still is.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Marco Polo

Have you never heard "big girls don't cry"? I thought that one was more common. Probably just my own bias...

Sure there's that too. I am speaking only from my own experience working with kids most of my life.

Originally Posted by Marco Polo

I don't think this is the case any more - today real gender differences are played down and denied rather than embraced. Hence the massive backlash against the current situation we're seeing... uhm, on the internet where people can actually say what they think. LOL (but mark my word, there will be a tipping point where this debate goes more mainstream).

I can't agree with you (again, based on my own experience) that gender differences are played down and denied. I will couch that by saying that in adulthood we attempt to play them down and deny them, but this is only after they have been drilled into us ad nauseum in childhood. I could give you countless examples of this. The kids are dressed very differently, they are offered different toys, they are expected to like different things. It's amazing really. Now, I am not saying that what I've experienced is difinitive for the whole world, but I see conditioning in action with kids, most of it so automatic that most people wouldn't even notice they were treating their children differently based on gender. But it's there.

Originally Posted by Marco Polo

Some things are just... like insanely obvious. Sex hormones - testosterone and estrogen. These chemicals have a massive impact, absolutely astonishing.

And then there's overall physical strength, fat distribution, differences in brain size & structure etc etc. All important differences which then are exaggerated by society.

I have never disagreed (that I recall) that we do have innate biological and chemical differences between the sexes. However, I believe that conditioning and environment ALSO plays a huge role. As much as it probably amazes other people that I believe so strongly in conditioning, it amazes me that its role is so downplayed by others. I suppose it's because of all of the time I've spent with kids in observation thinking about this very topic. I could bore you for days with stories.

Originally Posted by Marco Polo

Speaking of kids, why is it that small boys are naturally more assertive and more likely to go against authority? I'm absolutely convinced it's biology. This stuff happens before they could possibly be molded very much by society.

I haven't found this to be true in my experience. I've known too many quiet and accomodating boys and so many assertive and rebelious girls to believe that one or the other is naturally more of anything than the other (aside from the biological differences).

Originally Posted by Marco Polo

When I was 3-6 years old I would wrestle all the time, beat up my dad... whatever! All this before I watched even a minute of violent TV or was conditioned by the big patriarchal brainwashing boogey man. That urge to wrestle and box was just so instinctive... still is.

Um, I was like that too. I was what you call a tomboy which I think is a ridiculous term. I am all woman, but I always liked more traditionally "boyish" pursuits.

Originally Posted by Marco Polo

big patriarchal brainwashing boogey man

That's not really what I was saying at all, but very funny. All I meant to point out was that we treat and teach girls and boys differently from day one. Not as some patriarchal consipiracy to keep the girls down. The original roles may have sprung up from the tendencies and strengths of each gender, but in my opinion they have become almost charactured stereotypes, taken to the extreme.

I meant only to say that men and women are capable of a lot of things, many of them overlapping, some distinct to gender but that we sort of train out certain qualities in each and instill societally acceptable ones.

Again, in my experience, the conditioning is very blatant and far reaching, if not conscious.

[ogrekilleat]

Articles like this that make me thank God I'm a lesbian...and Miss "If I had to date women, I'd end up smothering most of them with a pillow in their sleep" isn't!!!

Actually though, I used to ally with men against women in this same way (because I felt more "masculine" and thus somewhat denigrated "femininity"--at the time I truly believed in the masculine vs. feminine dichotomy), so I understand how it happens. Some people just tend to try to get in line with the upper class in order to derive advantage from it.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Marco Polo

"I'm a woman, hear me roar! I can do everything a man can do!" Hence this backlash against the current situation we're seeing... uhm, on the internet where people can actually say what they think, lol.

I would just like to ask (genuinely) what exactly men -- or women -- can do that the other gender cannot aside from biologically determined things like: peeing standing up, childbearing, endurance in females and brute strength in men?

It's an honest to g-d question. I believe it's perfectly fine and wonderful to embrace what differences we do have and use each gender's strengths to the best advantage, but what really are the limits?

As a woman, I find I can do most anything a man can do (no need to roar about it, it's just a fact). And I'd wager that as a man you could do most anything I can do as well. I've even heard of a pregnant guy (though I haven't really looked into that to know if it's legit) and they have the Shenis so girls can pee standing up (not that I really have any desire to).

What do you think?

[Marco Polo]

Aspiring to Clarity,

Thanks for your detailed response. I always take it as a compliment when people break my text into 1 000 000 pieces like that.

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

I've even heard of a pregnant guy

...

What do you think?

I think that's funny but ridiculous.

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

I would just like to ask (genuinely) what exactly men -- or women -- can do that the other gender cannot aside from biologically determined things like: peeing standing up, childbearing, endurance in females and brute strength in men?

I believe the elite in certain realms will always be men, and in other realms women. I also believe there are significant average deviations which should be recognized. Not to say we can't all achieve roughly the same things.

I also want post something I typed up rather quickly straight when I saw this topic... quite unrelated to what we were just discussing. This is more a personal thing than the whole nature vs. nurture debate. It's a bit of a problem actually...

Most women are just as vicious as your average guy. However, they're usually more subtle about it. [quote from the link in the OP]

Yes, completely true. I find some women to be really vicious - especially towards other women. Vicious in a very distinct way. The whole "sweet little girl" act is usually just a mask. It took me ages to figure it out. It's psychological warfare that I'm talking about, more or less.

Most of my teenage years I just wanted to level with girls. Showing strength and weakness, being polite, trying to create respect both ways etc. Funny thing is, the reaction I got was usually... uhm, pretty much terrible. With some of the more mature women it's different, but only in some exceptional cases.

I would love to understand the psychology, because I'm still baffled by it. It's not like I wasn't being myself or anything. I just tried to open up a little, but girls despised it and started attacking instead. What the hell?! There's like no reciprocity - all they see is weakness. Conclusion: male sensitivity brings out a terrible mean streak in women - and women, you know it does!

(With guys it's the opposite - if I relax and let down my guard they'll usually reciprocate, and it's all chilled)

But then - surprise surprise - when I bring out my slightly more dominating side with girls and stop pandering to them so much (especially when I start poking fun at them ), suddenly I'm this "great guy" and my jokes are like sooo hilarious.

I'm starting to think that girls are the crappiest source of information to tell me how to treat girls. Anyone else with the same experience?

[ogrekilleat]

All I meant to point out was that we treat and teach girls and boys differently from day one.

Yeah, you're right, we do, and it's kind of weird when you think about it, because so many people assert that there's this natural difference in behavior, but if it's truly natural, then why do we insist on enforcing it? We could just treat both genders the same, and the natural differences would just naturally assert themselves.

I feel like it's the people who have the strongest belief in strong natural differences that are the most adamant about enforcing these natural differences, and they don't even see the contradiction in that.

[ogrekilleat]

I also believe there are significant average deviations which should be recognized.

Why should they be recognized? Why shouldn't we just deal with people as individuals? Even if women tend to be better at certain things than men and vice versa, there are always exceptions, and when we insist on dictating that "women are good at this, and men are good at this", those exceptions end up getting totally screwed. On the other hand, if we just treat people as individuals, then people can do what they're good at, and it doesn't really matter if women as a group tend to be good at a certain thing.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Marco Polo

Yes, completely true. I find some women to be really vicious - especially towards other women. Vicious in a very distinct way. The whole "sweet little girl" act is usually just a mask. It took me ages to figure it out. It's psychological warfare that I'm talking about, more or less.

Most of my teenage years I just wanted to level with girls. Showing strength and weakness, being polite, trying to create respect both ways etc. Funny thing is, the reaction I got was usually... uhm, pretty much terrible. With some of the more mature women it's different, but only in some exceptional cases.

I would love to understand the psychology, because I'm still baffled by it. It's not like I wasn't being myself or anything. I just tried to open up a little, but girls despised it and started attacking instead. What the hell?! There's like no reciprocity - all they see is weakness. Conclusion: male sensitivity brings out a terrible mean streak in women - and women, you know it does!

(With guys it's the opposite - if I relax and let down my guard they'll usually reciprocate, and it's all chilled)

But then - surprise surprise - when I bring out my slightly more dominating side with girls and stop pandering to them so much (especially when I start poking fun at them ), suddenly I'm this "great guy" and my jokes are like sooo hilarious.

I'm starting to think that girls are the crappiest source of information to tell me how to treat girls. Anyone else with the same experience?

I've known lots of women like that, but not one single woman that I choose to associate on a regular basis is like that (and neither am I if I may be so bold). I appreciate genuine sensitivity in men very much.

I think that any one person of either gender is a crappy source of information on how to treat someone of that gender. Does that make sense? Not all women are like you describe there (as you noted) and not all men are one way either. You have to look at the individual. In addition, aside from common sense things like integrity and respect, I think you should just be yourself and not try to figure out what women want. First because it's not homogenous and second because it's not wise to pour yourself into a mold to attract someone -- too hard to maintain and makes you feel bad about yourself because you know they don't love the "real you." Put what you've got out there and let the one who complements and appreciates that pick it up.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by ogrekilleat

Yeah, you're right, we do, and it's kind of weird when you think about it, because so many people assert that there's this natural difference in behavior, but if it's truly natural, then why do we insist on enforcing it? We could just treat both genders the same, and the natural differences would just naturally assert themselves.

I feel like it's the people who have the strongest belief in strong natural differences that are the most adamant about enforcing these natural differences, and they don't even see the contradiction in that.

Originally Posted by ogrekilleat

Why should they be recognized? Why shouldn't we just deal with people as individuals? Even if women tend to be better at certain things than men and vice versa, there are always exceptions, and when we insist on dictating that "women are good at this, and men are good at this", those exceptions end up getting totally screwed. On the other hand, if we just treat people as individuals, then people can do what they're good at, and it doesn't really matter if women as a group tend to be good at a certain thing.

Agreed and agreed.

[Marco Polo]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

I think that any one person of either gender is a crappy source of information on how to treat someone of that gender. Does that make sense?

No, guys are generally a better source for advice on girls. Girls say one thing and mean another, most don't even know what they want etc. It's all very confusing.

As for the whole individual vs. stereotyping thing... well yes, I agree. My favourite science teacher was a woman, and she was excellent. It's not like I was sitting there thinking "ooo, it's lady doing science, I better check her sources after class). I have friends who break all the stereotypes - I give them kudos and love them for it.

That does not stop me from recognizing trends. I always do that... observe people and look for correlations. The gender differences I've observed are so obvious and large as well. I can't ignore them without being intellectually dishonest.

And at the same time I realize they're not absolute. I also realize I'm biased and I tilt things in my direction. So what?

I'm also biased against walking up to creepy hobos at night. They're probably friendly most of them, but gut instinct and stereotypes tell me - with good reason - to avoid it.

Thank G-d I'm endowed with stereotypes - if I didn't have them I wouldn't survive for a day. Stereotypes are there for a reason - they contain truth. No?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Marco Polo

No, guys are generally a better source for advice on girls. Girls say one thing and mean another, most don't even know what they want etc. It's all very confusing.

I think you happen to be dealing with some very immature girls (maybe it's because you are actually dealing with girls rather than women...not sure what the age range is here). Sorry to hear that. If I extrapolated my dealings with a lot of guys in my life to the whole, I'd think that all men are jerks and liars. But I know this isn't the case. I don't think it's so confusing really. You learn to discern between the mature and immature and pursue a relationship with the former.

Glad to hear you've got some really insightful guys to turn to. The advice I've heard guys give other guys (about girls) has been pretty shabby -- with exceptions of course. Hope it all works out for you.