Men and Women: The Real Problem and It's Not What You Think

[Jamie]

I think there's a lot to be said for going behond the traditional socially conditioned roles that we play; and towards being more free, natural and spontaneous beings, acting without thought according to our innate natures.

That goes as much for women as it does for men.

[Vasilisa]

I am probably the only woman in this thread who is greateful to be conditioned into being feminine.
It's very hard for me to understand why it's bad for a woman to be conditioned to be gentle, soft, wear feminine clothes, awake a desire to protect you in men.
And of course I like masculine men. Of course, I don't say that' my way of living is the only right one. But' it's the most enjoyable for me.
I like to take care of people around me in a nurturing, feminine way.
I love skirts and ruffles and heels and make-up and different sweet accessories like cute bracelets, small bags and etc. (I understand how old-fashioned it sounds, but that's what comes naturally out of me.).
I tried to be more active, fast, abrupt, more masculine, made my voice louder and tried to look less vulnerable just to fit in better and to protect myself and to look more professional in the modern world.
But now I am in my 30 s and I realised - IT'S NOT WHO I AM.
I am that slow-moving, soft-voiced, pleasant-smiling gal who likes shopping and reading romantic books more than anything, who was born to be a mother and a home-maker.
So, I think now that our society is becoming less tolerant for people like me who have very strong feminine or very strong masculine side. For some reason we all are supposed to have no gender difference nowadays.
I feel the most comfortable among older people (in their 60-s, 70-s). I admire their style - women dress nicely and behave like ladies, old gentlemen open doors for you and etc. And most of them like me too.
And for the biology and social conditioning. My boy is one of the softest and sensitive boys but he is still more active and agressive than most girls.

[Apple Eye]

Originally Posted by Vasilisa

I am probably the only woman in this thread who is greateful to be conditioned into being feminine.
It's very hard for me to understand why it's bad for a woman to be conditioned to be gentle, soft, wear feminine clothes, awake a desire to protect you in men.
And of course I like masculine men. Of course, I don't say that' my way of living is the only right one. But' it's the most enjoyable for me.
I like to take care of people around me in a nurturing, feminine way.
I love skirts and ruffles and heels and make-up and different sweet accessories like cute bracelets, small bags and etc. (I understand how old-fashioned it sounds, but that's what comes naturally out of me.).
I tried to be more active, fast, abrupt, more masculine, made my voice louder and tried to look less vulnerable just to fit in better and to protect myself and to look more professional in the modern world.
But now I am in my 30 s and I realised - IT'S NOT WHO I AM.
I am that slow-moving, soft-voiced, pleasant-smiling gal who likes shopping and reading romantic books more than anything, who was born to be a mother and a home-maker.
So, I think now that our society is becoming less tolerant for people like me who have very strong feminine or very strong masculine side. For some reason we all are supposed to have no gender difference nowadays.
I feel the most comfortable among older people (in their 60-s, 70-s). I admire their style - women dress nicely and behave like ladies, old gentlemen open doors for you and etc. And most of them like me too.
And for the biology and social conditioning. My boy is one of the softest and sensitive boys but he is still more active and agressive than most girls.

This actually proves the opposite point - that we shouldn't condition people to act a certain way.

You felt pressure to behave in a specific manner that was contrary to your own identity and desires/personality. You have now realized that it makes more sense to be who you are. That's wonderful!

But a lot of people have no interest in the things you described above. I think sometimes when people with a certain personality type happen to fit well into a particular societal mold they are quite content with the way things are (or used to be) and make the assumption it is the same for everyone. I don't think this is true.

For example, I hate fashion, makeup, etc. This is not a preference I was forced into. I just hate these things with a passion so strong that it could be harnessed as an alternative fuel source to power the world for a thousand years! Sure, here you could argue that I'm an exception, but I don't think so. A lot of women don't really care about these things.

If society dictated that I behave in a more outwardly "feminine" way (as defined by wearing makeup, dresses, etc.) and I was looked down upon for different preferences, I would be miserable. Why would I be unhappy if this is just the way women are "supposed" to act?

It's not ME to be into these things. Of course, this doesn't mean I'm not a woman, just as I think you would argue your more "feminine" leanings don't mean you have no "masculine" qualities. In the end, I'm just a person made up of a unique combination of personality traits, talents, and interests. And I'm not a slave to biology or entirely defined by my sexual organs. I have a brain and therefore the freedom to make decisions and create the life I want. I think the danger arises when society attempts to set up an ideal for womanhood and manhood that everyone is pressured to follow, especially when the ideals are based on very specific personality traits. Personality varies widely, and doesn't have anything to do with biology.

It's not really a black and white issue, so to me it doesn't make sense to have cultural expectations based on gender. Even sexuality spreads out across a wide spectrum - it's not just gay/straight. Some people are only attracted to the same sex, some are mostly attracted to the same sex but have some attraction toward the opposite, then there are bisexuals, "straight" people who can be attracted to the same sex, and purely straight individuals.

That's the beautiful thing about the freedom we are lucky enough to have now (not everyone has this in the world). If you love "frilly" things (which by the way I don't think is inherently a "feminine" thing, although it has been traditionally viewed as such) embrace that! No matter who you are. If you love something totally different, do it! Life's too short to worry about what you're "supposed" to be doing.

When everyone acts the same - that is sooo boring! I love seeing people be unique because it makes life so colourful, diverse, interesting, and exciting! The differences are beautiful. And yet we still all share a common humanity that binds us together.

Sometimes I think we tend to idealize the past as well - the good ol' days! Yup, I loved not being able to vote, having no rights, legally considered property, etc. etc. etc. It must have been great hearing people tell you the only worth you have as a woman is your fertility.

Besides, even in the past things weren't necessarily so cut and dry. Have you ever met an old-school European mama? Soft and feminine aren't the first words that come to my mind when I think of my Croatian grandma and stories of my great-grandma.

Check out this old Folgers ad from the 1950s: YouTube - Folgers coffee advert

[Vasilisa]

I loved that commercial!

[ogrekilleat]

That was a wonderful post, Apple Eye

[Apple Eye]

Originally Posted by Vasilisa

I loved that commercial!

LOL - me too!

Originally Posted by ogrekilleat

That was a wonderful post, Apple Eye

Thank you

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by Apple Eye

I think the danger arises when society attempts to set up an ideal for womanhood and manhood that everyone is pressured to follow, especially when the ideals are based on very specific personality traits. Personality varies widely, and doesn't have anything to do with biology.

I agree!

Originally Posted by Vasilisa

It's very hard for me to understand why it's bad for a woman to be conditioned to be gentle, soft, wear feminine clothes, awake a desire to protect you in men.

I guess that's because you are naturally like this. For many other women (including me), it's very hard to be gentle, soft, wear feminine clothes, and awake a desire to protect us in men. That's just not who we are, just like being abrupt and masculine is just not who you are. When we try to fit in, we suffer.

I'm happy for you that you found out who you are and that you're true to yourself, Vasilisa. It's perfectly ok to be such a "feminine" woman, there's nothing wrong with that. We just would like to be who we are too, without being socially pressured into being who we are not. The "bad" thing is not being gentle, soft and so on, it's being conditioned to be like this, even if you are not like this naturally, only because you are a woman. (Same for men in the opposite direction).

I don't feel particularly nurturing, I hate shopping, I'm not interested in clothes or shoes, I never use makeup, I have almost no hair left on my head and I don't own any jewelry or small bags. I find romantic books boring, laughed to tears while watching Titanic, I hate household chores, and I don't want to have children.

And I am a real woman, I feel sexy as a woman, I love being a woman, and I don't want to be considered as some kind of guy with boobs.

So, I think now that our society is becoming less tolerant for people like me who have very strong feminine or very strong masculine side. For some reason we all are supposed to have no gender difference nowadays.

You know what's funny? I hear from men and women fitting the traditional roles that they feel pressured into becoming more androgynous, and from men and women not fitting the traditional roles that they feel pressured into adapting to the stereotypes. So, basically, everybody feels pressured and nobody's happy Let's just stop pressuring and caring about pressure, altogether

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Jamie

acting without thought according to our innate natures.

Yeah

but

our innate nature is presumably to survive and replicate so then we're all playing the selfish genes game. Now I don't have a problem with that (I RELISH it!) but some people think we should rise above our essential nature. Something or other called ethics. I think all moral principles are BS but try telling some people.

[Holistic Star]

from the first lines of the article:

"There's an ever rising population of aggro men in this country and women have no one to blame but themselves. Men are hurt, angry and confused- even if they're unaware- and with good reason."

Right so according to the author men aren't taking responsibility for their thoughts, emotions and actions and it is all women's fault?

What a misogynistic load of crap.

[Apple Eye]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

I find romantic books boring, laughed to tears while watching Titanic, I hate household chores, and I don't want to have children.

Cool - so I'm not the only one!

I thought that movie was a comedy

Originally Posted by Holistic Star

from the first lines of the article:

"There's an ever rising population of aggro men in this country and women have no one to blame but themselves. Men are hurt, angry and confused- even if they're unaware- and with good reason."

Right so according to the author men aren't taking responsibility for their thoughts, emotions and actions and it is all women's fault?

What a misogynistic load of crap.

I agree. I find it distasteful when someone trying to make a point couches the argument in accusations and uses incendiary language to get people all riled up. If you really are concerned about something and want to discuss an issue, it makes no sense to play the blame game.

Perhaps the author is using controversy and purposely hitting on sore spots to get the article noticed.

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

Socialization is heavily sexist. Even people who say about themselves that they're not in the slightest sexist educate their children very differently based on their gender, without even noticing it. I can see it happen every day. It goes from different clothes, different colors, different toys...

My nephew celebrated his first birthday a couple of moths ago. Unfortunately (for this discussion) he didn't get a dolly, but let me tell you when he saw what the little basketball could do WOW did his eyes light up and a HUGE grin errupted from his face.

While you could argue that his dad influenced his son by getting him a basketball instead of a doll, I don't think that my nephew would have enjoyed a doll, just by going with his reaction to the ball. I think my brother in law just knew his son and didn't want to waste 10 bucks on a toy that would not be played with. The toy I gave him was geared more towards coordination and balance. I gave him a rocking puppy, equally fascinating for little boys and little girls. I thought of getting him a rocket tricycle, but it was too expensive. LOL

Might a girl have had the same reaction to the basketball? Possibly. Might she not have had the opportunity to play with the basketball as my nephew didn't get the opportunity to play with a dolly, just because none of us bought her/him the other toy? That's possible too. I can't say how my nephew would have reacted to a doll, but the fact remains that when this infant boy figured out what to do with a stereotypically male toy, he acted like a stereotypical boy. He had no influence from his parents other than the gift he received. We tried to get him to play with every toy he received, and he did to a certain extent. But when he saw that basketball again, he would lose interest in the new toy and try to figure out the magic of that ball. Some toys were more of a hit, like this game that would make all kinds of noises when he put little balls in a basket. But nothing surpassed his enjoyment of that basketball.

I think some of the reason we reinforce stereotypes in our children is that it's just so much fun. When I was at Toys R Us I had a fun time imagining him playing with them. I imagined him playing with the Rocket trike. If I got him the rocket and he beamed with joy at the cool 50s style rocket it would have been neat to see. Children's reactions reinforce and guide the way we raise them. Maybe some people do not like to see infant boys play with dolls and girls play with balls, but I really believe that the stereotypes come from the children more than the other way around.

Anyway, yes we do have some influence over how our children are raised. It's true. Is it nurture or nature that creates the personality? Well, it's both, right? Truthfully, it's not one or the other. You think that it's mostly nurture, I think it's mostly nature. Well, chances are that we are both wrong. It's both.

Originally Posted by Holistic Star

from the first lines of the article:
"There's an ever rising population of aggro men in this country and women have no one to blame but themselves. Men are hurt, angry and confused- even if they're unaware- and with good reason."

Right so according to the author men aren't taking responsibility for their thoughts, emotions and actions and it is all women's fault?

What a misogynistic load of crap.

Here we go again with the religion of Personal Responsibility, as if ONLY one person is responsible for any action. How about the responsibility that we all SHARE? The social responsibility? We exist in a society and the effects on society should be FIRST. Excuse the Trek reference but the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, right? Fact is that every action has many influences. Today there is far too much pressure on people overcoming outside unhealthy influences.
Someone addicted to alcohol? His friends might say, "Well, keep going out with us to bars but don't drink. Oh, you want a drink? Ok, I'll have a shot with you." Then the following day, "well, it's your responsibility because you know that you are an alcoholic." Maybe it's extreme but this is not too unlike what is happening today. "We" don't want to take responsibility of OTHER people's actions, and that is just wrong. It's far too individualistic. What happened to support? We all need it.

[ogrekilleat]

At first I also thought it was a misogynistic blog, then I came to the line about gleefully smothering women in their sleep, and I realized that the author's intentions were....oh, yeah, still misogynistic, only now also violent.

[ogrekilleat]

How about the responsibility that we all SHARE?

"[W]omen have no one to blame but themselves" says nothing about sharing responsibility, it completely absolves men.

A few anecdotes doesn't prove anything. I could easily spout some anecdotes that would support the opposite point. Does he who collects the most anecdotes win the debate?

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by ogrekilleat

"[W]omen have no one to blame but themselves" says nothing about sharing responsibility, it completely absolves men.

If you read the phrase exactly you are right, but the implication in that statement is that men have been held responsible for their aggressiveness for so long that it's time that women own up to their part of the responsibility. It is actually all about shared responsibility because it's a counter to "men are 100% responsible." In fact, both are responsible.

[ogrekilleat]

Ah, I see what you mean. Yes, if I read it that way...I can read anything I want to into this blog! NOW I see where you're getting your interpretation...

[SmartAlx]

Am I accurately reading sarcasm in your reply? LOL

[ogrekilleat]

lol, yes, sorry Apparently I get sarcastic when I'm just sitting around at a forum, waiting for some exciting debate to start up...Hm, I guess I better go out and do something with my Saturday evening or I'll just sit here and be sarcastic at people all night long.

...on second thought, since it's actually Sunday, and thus there's no specific need to go out, perhaps I will sit here sarcastically. MWAHAHA!!!

[SmartAlx]

Too bad. I'm off to a salsa social.

[ogrekilleat]

Well, when you return, expect to find a whole HOST of sarcastic replies to each and every one of your comments, thanks to the handy "find all posts by user" function! You will rue the day that feature was invented!!

[Apple Eye]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

My nephew celebrated his first birthday a couple of moths ago. Unfortunately (for this discussion) he didn't get a dolly, but let me tell you when he saw what the little basketball could do WOW did his eyes light up and a HUGE grin errupted from his face.

I always thought of bouncing balls as having a universal appeal. They seem rather gender neutral to me. Who doesn't get excited by them? They're mesmerizing! LOL

Also the guys = sports, girls = not sports thing seems like it's not even a big topic these days. As far as I can remember from my school days, there were the boys who loved sports, the girls who loved sports, the boys who didn't like sports, and the girls who didn't like sports. With many variations in-between. A girl I grew up with, all she did was play sports, and so many of her Christmas gifts consisted of sports equipment. (I personally was terrible at every sport known to mankind, and suffered immeasurably because of it. Gym class was painful...haha. Although I was awesome at double dutch and loved inline skating!)

Observing regular people in my neighborhood, there are tons of young girls involved in a wide variety of sports teams. Soccer, basketball, volleyball etc. Actually, physical activity offers young girls and boys many positive benefits. The exercise is beneficial, you learn teamwork, and have a chance to get some fresh air.

All kids have tons of energy and need to run around. Otherwise they drive you bananas!

And in addition to the physical aspect, each sport is really just a game, isn't it? There's a thinking element to sports - that's what makes them fun!

Me, however, I prefer mind games (double entendre intended)

P.S. I wrote this before seeing some of the other replies. I've got tons of anecdotes in my post - yay!