Deadbeat Dads?

[Amadeus]

I believe there is a disconnect between how the media and society in general portrays "deadbeat dads" and what is actually reality. The other week my soon to be ex-wife and I were watching ABC's Extreme Makeover about a single mother of about 5 or 6 kids getting the once in a life time pleasure of acquiring a new house from ABC. A few minutes into the show my wife for four years said sort of in a smart ass way, "I hate to be judgmental, but where is their Dad". Keep in mind my wife will be filing for divorce after our house sells even though I want to desperately continue the marriage and we have a 19 month old daughter who we both adore. I thought about keeping my mouth shut after the comment but I just couldn't resist this one. I said, "well maybe THEIR mother decided that she didn’t love her husband any longer and that it was better to live from a broken home than in one". My wife had a “deer caught in headlights look” on her face and said, "that was a low blow". But it is true isn't it?

I for years had a negative impression of my childhood friends who lived with just their mothers and who had unseen fathers. I thought "why in the world did their dad leave his family? What was wrong with him?" I've heard countless of stories on the news about "deadbeat" dads being put in jail for not paying child support or them taking off (kidnapping their own kids) out of state. These men were villains in my mind, yet if you do the research you'll find that 2 out of 3 divorces are filed by the wife and in over 90 percent of the cases the wife always gets custody. When I look at my situation I realize I too will be looked in the same light. Sure I'll pay the child support, but I won't be there with my daughter every evening to hug her and to read to her before going to bed. I'll make the time that I have with her the best I can possibly make it, but they'll still be so many missed opportunities that I would have shared with her if my wife would have kept with the commitment of "I do". What if my wife moves out of state and leaves me without seeing my sweetheart for months at a time? I couldn't bare it but it is always a possibility and as the "man" or should I say partial custody parent of my daughter I only have limited rights. Don't get me wrong I know there are some women who had to get out of their marriages due to physical or emotional abuse, but when you decide knowingly to be intimate with someone who could be the father of your baby you must look at what is in the best interest of that child. I can't help but knowing that some people, who have a picture of me already made up in their minds, will say "I hate to be a smart ass, but where is her dad?".

[missing]

What you are describing is a sad fact of our society. Many men are quite bitter about it, and IMO justifiably so. It's another example of how masculinity is vilified and devalued in the mainstream. Possibly the most destructive and devastating both to individuals and society as a whole. I'm sure many feminists view your kind of plight as "collateral damage" in the fight against the actual deadbeats. Even if they claim to sympathize, you don't really matter to them. I wish you the best of luck but won't lie, you don't have an easy road ahead of you.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

First, deadbeat dads aren't just from marriages. Even though (if your statistic is correct) two out of three divorces are filed by the woman, that doesn't mean only one out of every three guys chooses to leave his family. Many of the deadbeat dads were not married to the mother of their children to begin with.

Second, it seems that though you don't want to get divorced things are amicable (you're in the same home watching sappy tv together). Your wife doesn't seem to be intent on hurting you. You can have the custody documents written as to prohibit moves further than a certain distance. If you want to spend loads of time with your daughter, have it written up so that you get 50/50 custody. Unless there is something you haven't mentioned it doesn't look as if your wife intends to stop you from seeing your daughter.

Third, I don't believe it can be conclusively said that the best interest of the child is to have both parents 24/7.

My main point is, instead of looking at how you are a victim of your situation, how about taking steps to make sure you are in your daughter's life. Someone who deserts his child deserves the title "deadbeat dad" to me. There are plenty such men. I don't think we are calling great fathers who want to provide for and see their children deadbeat dads simply because they do not reside with the mother and child. Do you? You are not that. It doesn't seem your wife will paint you as such. Forget about deadbeat dads and the bad rap they get (um, boo-hoo). Just do what's best for you and your daughter. This is not your wife's fault or yours. It's just reality.

[Ree]

Originally Posted by Amadeus

I believe there is a disconnect between how the media and society in general portrays "deadbeat dads" and what is actually reality. The other week my soon to be ex-wife and I were watching ABC's Extreme Makeover about a single mother of about 5 or 6 kids getting the once in a life time pleasure of acquiring a new house from ABC. A few minutes into the show my wife for four years said sort of in a smart ass way, "I hate to be judgmental, but where is their Dad". Keep in mind my wife will be filing for divorce after our house sells even though I want to desperately continue the marriage and we have a 19 month old daughter who we both adore. I thought about keeping my mouth shut after the comment but I just couldn't resist this one. I said, "well maybe THEIR mother decided that she didn’t love her husband any longer and that it was better to live from a broken home than in one". My wife had a “deer caught in headlights look” on her face and said, "that was a low blow". But it is true isn't it?

I for years had a negative impression of my childhood friends who lived with just their mothers and who had unseen fathers. I thought "why in the world did their dad leave his family? What was wrong with him?" I've heard countless of stories on the news about "deadbeat" dads being put in jail for not paying child support or them taking off (kidnapping their own kids) out of state. These men were villains in my mind, yet if you do the research you'll find that 2 out of 3 divorces are filed by the wife and in over 90 percent of the cases the wife always gets custody. When I look at my situation I realize I too will be looked in the same light. Sure I'll pay the child support, but I won't be there with my daughter every evening to hug her and to read to her before going to bed. I'll make the time that I have with her the best I can possibly make it, but they'll still be so many missed opportunities that I would have shared with her if my wife would have kept with the commitment of "I do". What if my wife moves out of state and leaves me without seeing my sweetheart for months at a time? I couldn't bare it but it is always a possibility and as the "man" or should I say partial custody parent of my daughter I only have limited rights. Don't get me wrong I know there are some women who had to get out of their marriages due to physical or emotional abuse, but when you decide knowingly to be intimate with someone who could be the father of your baby you must look at what is in the best interest of that child. I can't help but knowing that some people, who have a picture of me already made up in their minds, will say "I hate to be a smart ass, but where is her dad?".

First let me say that there is a huge amount of truth in what you say. Had my marriage fallen upon hard times when my children were small, I can't imagine having tried to raise my children alone or having tried to put my husband out of our lives, if there ever was a strand of hope that my marriage would work. Marriage is hard work and my opinion is that too many people go into marriage starry eyed and concentrating too much on the elaborate wedding and not enough on the years of marriage that follow. They then compound that mistake by having children without thinking that through completely either.

That said, I would like to tell you that you should get a very good lawyer and be sure your rights are protected. Go for joint custody. I'm in court on a regular basis and I know for a fact that these days, judges LIKE to see fathers who want to be involved in the lives of their children. Sole custody is rarely given to the mother just because she's the mother. If you have joint custody, you will have a say in where your child lives and she can't be taken out of state without your permission. Many many times the court will appoint a guardian ad litem, a totally objective third party whose sole purpose is to see to the welfare and the rights of the child. The guardian ad litem will come into the home and spend time with mom, dad, child and if need be teachers, friends, aunts, uncles, grandparents, etc. They manage to get much more information than a judge can get during a limited amount of time in a hearing room and this would allow you to have a great deal of input.

Actually, the legal system has changed a lot in recent years where family law is concerned and I hope you take advantage of every opportunity to continue to be a dad to your daughter. You sound like you're a great one! Good luck.

[Alex2007]

This is what I call Sexism and society's tendency (most managerial positions are held by men) to over-protect the female in an attempt to feed up their masculine Ego's which, beleive me, (masculine Egos) are very hungry for food...They actually USE the female as a tool to get their food! The price is paid by other poor men.

Being a man myself, I find your views very caring and loving, even though there is a hidden story going in your wife's mind that keeps her appart, but I can not tell what caused it.

No matter which society you live in, you sound like a caring man who knows what his reality is. I am sure you can convince even the most hungry ego's out there. Just keep your self in a safe place and away from infectuous people who can push you in the wrong direction.

Be still, be yourself and see what happens.

Alex
----

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by missing

I'm sure many feminists view your kind of plight as "collateral damage" in the fight against the actual deadbeats. Even if they claim to sympathize, you don't really matter to them.

I am sure I am jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire here, but what do you mean by that?

Really, I don't know anyone who doesn't have sympathy for the dads who do want to see their kids and be a part of their lives, but who are prevented. I have a friend who rarely got to see his son and it devastates him to this day. The label deadbeat is for a guy who doesn't care to see his children and has no interest in providing for them. Those guys don't have my sympathy. Everyone who is trying to do what is best for their kids does.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Amadeus

I said, "well maybe THEIR mother decided that she didn’t love her husband any longer and that it was better to live from a broken home than in one". My wife had a “deer caught in headlights look” on her face and said, "that was a low blow". But it is true isn't it?.

Amadeus, is this a pattern in your 4-years together, in which one of you says something and the other *reacts* rather than responds, leading to hurt on one or both sides? Also, is being right worth it at the expense of feeling related to the mother of your beloved child?

It sounds like you wouldn't mind having a good relationship with her again, and maybe even reconcile with her. Whether or not you stay together, wouldn't it be nice to start working on productive communication now, for everyone's best interest?

Good luck; you're in a tough spot. But you also have a lot of power.

[Amadeus]

Angela

Amadeus, is this a pattern in your 4-years together, in which one of you says something and the other *reacts* rather than responds, leading to hurt on one or both sides? Also, is being right worth it at the expense of feeling related to the mother of your beloved child?

Angela I completely agree with what you are saying and believe me when I say I almost past up saying it, but I'm sure you can understand why I took the opportunity to blurt it out. It was a ball the size of the Grand Canyon that was just sitting there for me to blow out of the park. You are right, but if I had the chance to take back what I said, I wouldn't if I'm honest.

Thanks to everyone for your feedback and polite comments.

[Angela]

Amadeus, I'm not trying to give you a hard time about it; I just wanted to point out one possible thing you could look at as you do what it takes to create and maintain a loving, positive relationship with this woman with whom you will be sharing parenting for the rest of your life, however it all turns out.

[robc]

Originally Posted by Amadeus

I believe there is a disconnect between how the media and society in general portrays "deadbeat dads" and what is actually reality. The other week my soon to be ex-wife and I were watching ABC's Extreme Makeover about a single mother of about 5 or 6 kids getting the once in a life time pleasure of acquiring a new house from ABC. A few minutes into the show my wife for four years said sort of in a smart ass way, "I hate to be judgmental, but where is their Dad". Keep in mind my wife will be filing for divorce after our house sells even though I want to desperately continue the marriage and we have a 19 month old daughter who we both adore. I thought about keeping my mouth shut after the comment but I just couldn't resist this one. I said, "well maybe THEIR mother decided that she didn’t love her husband any longer and that it was better to live from a broken home than in one". My wife had a “deer caught in headlights look” on her face and said, "that was a low blow". But it is true isn't it?

I for years had a negative impression of my childhood friends who lived with just their mothers and who had unseen fathers. I thought "why in the world did their dad leave his family? What was wrong with him?" I've heard countless of stories on the news about "deadbeat" dads being put in jail for not paying child support or them taking off (kidnapping their own kids) out of state. These men were villains in my mind, yet if you do the research you'll find that 2 out of 3 divorces are filed by the wife and in over 90 percent of the cases the wife always gets custody. When I look at my situation I realize I too will be looked in the same light. Sure I'll pay the child support, but I won't be there with my daughter every evening to hug her and to read to her before going to bed. I'll make the time that I have with her the best I can possibly make it, but they'll still be so many missed opportunities that I would have shared with her if my wife would have kept with the commitment of "I do". What if my wife moves out of state and leaves me without seeing my sweetheart for months at a time? I couldn't bare it but it is always a possibility and as the "man" or should I say partial custody parent of my daughter I only have limited rights. Don't get me wrong I know there are some women who had to get out of their marriages due to physical or emotional abuse, but when you decide knowingly to be intimate with someone who could be the father of your baby you must look at what is in the best interest of that child. I can't help but knowing that some people, who have a picture of me already made up in their minds, will say "I hate to be a smart ass, but where is her dad?".

Amadeus I read your post, specifically the part about not wanting to end your marriage. Are you serious? If so email me rfcilia at gmail dot com

I do have some things you can try out that might help swing the momemtum over to your side. I would need more info about your situation, how long you've been together, if there was love in this relationship to begin with, what's causing the divorce, if one of you was unfaithful or abusive, kinds of arguments you have, how you got involved, current living arrangements, etc.

You have nothing to lose at this point, so if you're interested, let me know.
The advice I offer might help but it's not usually easily to air out the dirty laundry in a discussion forum like this.

Let me know.

p.s. Cheer up, you're still alive, healthy I presume and you have a beautiful baby daughter, all is not lost!

[Jennihul]

To me, the deadbeat dad is the CEO who, out of spite for having to pay child support and/or alimony, quits and goes to work at a tire center. Or hides his income completely by working under the table. Or let's his new gf or wife spend him into bankruptcy and blows off his kids.

Most are guys just trying to earn a living.

The moral of the story is: once you give the "gift" of your sperm, you will have no control over how it used. Don't be stupid. Don't have kids unless you are in a solid relationship and if you are in a solid relationship, protect yourself and your rights very quickly if things begin to sour. How many men, desiring that the estranged relationship magically revert back to the "way it was" totally go into denial until some lawyer rapes them and tells them what their reality is going to be? Instead of pro-actively working out their own version of reality before it's too late?


Jennifer

[robc]

Originally Posted by Jennihul

To me, the deadbeat dad is the CEO who, out of spite for having to pay child support and/or alimony, quits and goes to work at a tire center. Or hides his income completely by working under the table. Or let's his new gf or wife spend him into bankruptcy and blows off his kids.

Most are guys just trying to earn a living.

The moral of the story is: once you give the "gift" of your sperm, you will have no control over how it used. Don't be stupid. Don't have kids unless you are in a solid relationship and if you are in a solid relationship, protect yourself and your rights very quickly if things begin to sour. How many men, desiring that the estranged relationship magically revert back to the "way it was" totally go into denial until some lawyer rapes them and tells them what their reality is going to be? Instead of pro-actively working out their own version of reality before it's too late?


Jennifer

Most guys mate for life, I don't have stats to back this up but I would venture a solid guess that more than 2/3's of divorces are initiated by women.
So when a man does get married, he is invested in the relationship, it is solid for him, and for many men, they're clueless about relationship health and what they have to do to keep it healthy. Women have alot more power in today's relationships and as such men are losing their place in relationships and in society in general. You can't be a man because that means you're insensitive & chauvinist & not involved enough in the relationship, you can't be sensitive because you're too clingy & needy and don't focus enough on your own needs and invest all your energy into the relationship and leave little for yourself. There is no middle ground unfortunately for most men. Another thing I would point out and again I don't have stats handy to back this up, I bet you there is a decline in overall marriage rates - people are preferring to stay single because they're afraid of getting divorced. 1st time Divorce rates are skyrocketing, 2nd & 3rd time divorce rates are even higher and no one seems to be asking the question about what this dilemna is being caused by. Also another thing to look into, suicide rates for divorced men, I bet you that's another stat that's on an increasing trend: men are slowly being pushed out of the equation and having no place left to exist, paying crazy $$$ amounts for spousal & child abuse and having nothing left to exist on for themselves and yet it continues. Society overall is really in a downward spiral and this is one facet of that problem.

Where do men go when there is no place left for them to go? Why do men have to be weekend dads? Why is it assumed that a man can't offer just as fulfilling a parenting role as the mother? With divorce being so prevalent we're also just reinforcing a pattern of behavior for our children to follow, it's ok to get divorced, it's no longer a question of if, it's almost a fact that you will get divorced - it's pretty sad.

[Vasilisa]

I think you, guys, exaggerating. Majority of the divorced men I know have joint custody, unless they are unsuitable for it (drinking habits, drugs, mental problems) or don't want to (in this case they see their kids for 3 days every 2 weeks or weekends).
Of course, divorced people are supposed to pay child support. It's only fair.
May be women who file for divorce are deeply unhappy in their marriages and before judging them we should consider - why?
It can't be without any reason. Right?
I don't think that marriage should be like a jail or a cage and a person should stay in it until he (or she) dies no matter how bad and unhappy it is.
What is better for a child- two deeply unhappy, hating each other, but living together parents or living separately but content?

[missing]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

I am sure I am jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire here, but what do you mean by that?

Really, I don't know anyone who doesn't have sympathy for the dads who do want to see their kids and be a part of their lives, but who are prevented. I have a friend who rarely got to see his son and it devastates him to this day. The label deadbeat is for a guy who doesn't care to see his children and has no interest in providing for them. Those guys don't have my sympathy. Everyone who is trying to do what is best for their kids does.

I think I made it pretty clear that most people sympathize with fathers like the OP when they know the details. The problem is nobody's willing to do anything (aka pass laws) to help such people, because they are afraid it will let true dead beats off the hook. They will also "assume" he's just another dead beat unless they are given the full story (aka, know the details). Unfortunately life doesn't always give us a chance to give details. And no I don't like real dead beats either but I'm also of the belief that it's better to let 10 guilty man set free than to have one innocent imprisoned so.. make of that what you will.

The issue is way more complex than I'm making it out to be.

[Erki]

Originally Posted by robc

Most guys mate for life, I don't have stats to back this up but I would venture a solid guess that more than 2/3's of divorces are initiated by women.
So when a man does get married, he is invested in the relationship, it is solid for him, and for many men, they're clueless about relationship health and what they have to do to keep it healthy.

But if he's clueless about relationship health, is he really invested?

I'd say that in some cases, men don't want divorce simply because there is someone at home who cleans up and keeps the house tidy...

[robc]

Originally Posted by Erki

But if he's clueless about relationship health, is he really invested?

I'd say that in some cases, men don't want divorce simply because there is someone at home who cleans up and keeps the house tidy...

This doesn't let them entirely off the hook but it does offer some explanation as to what's going on. How many adult men can say that when they were growing up they were taught the basics of relationship health and how to keep a family together? I would venture a bet that says very few ever receive any wisdom in this area. You grow up and you learn what you're taught: you live in a home with 2 parents, sometimes both of them work sometimes it's just one of them and usually if it's one person working (not a rule but a generalization) is the father. So you know that employment and making money is a rule when you're an adult. You have to work hard and pay bills if you want to have a home, a car, clothes, tv and food in the fridge. So we've learned that much. We see parents fighting when we grow up ranging from infrequent arguments to explicit abuse on the part of 1 or both partners. So we learn that fighting is part of the equation. You go to school and pick up book smarts, that's part of it too. You notice that it's always busy at home, things always need to be done, chores need to be done, house needs to be maintained, bills need to be payed, lawn needs to be mowed, things have to be purchased from the store regularly. You learn that being busy is part of this equation as well. Where in all this mess do parents sit down with their children and teach them relationship basics - the world is way too busy and by the time people come home from work, they're exhausted and still have to put in the 2nd shift at home. No one is taking the time to teach anyone relationship basics.

Do you really think men are just clueless about relationship health on purpose? We are all products of our environment and although some people do change and break out of their original molds, for the most part that isn't how everyone will be. Most men will continue doing what they're learned because it's all they know. Don't fault them for not being as invested in their marriages as they can possibly be, if no one has taught them any different why would you expect any different from them?

[robc]

Most men don't come home to a clean & tidy house as per the picture you're painting, most men have to contribute to the household work just as much as their wives. I think it's an inaccurate assumption that most men come home to dinner waiting on the table, slippers by the recliner, pipe lit next to the newspaper with a happy wife in apron smiling at the door. That would be something straight out of a 50's advertisement or something. I know for myself I regularly clean the home, do dishes, laundry, household maintenance, manage the finances and help with taking care of the kids just as much as my wife and I know I'm not unique in that respect: lots of men do that too, more men than we give credit for.

[Vasilisa]

Strange, in most couples I know - if woman stays home she does ALL housework and takes care of kids. If a woman works she does 2/3 of housework anyway.
We probably live in different worlds.

[robc]

Originally Posted by Vasilisa

Strange, in most couples I know - if woman stays home she does ALL housework and takes care of kids. If a woman works she does 2/3 of housework anyway.
We probably live in different worlds.

I notice that most women don't like to stay at home and be a housewife and take care of the house & kids, it's not as fulfilling as it was once described. Most complain about going stir crazy and that working is a way to get out of the home and eliminate that problem. Plus with the cost of living as such, I think 2 income household is the most common out there, it's very hard to survive on one income alone. Things just cost so much more nowadays, how do you get buy on just one income? Rent/mortgage, utility bills, car payments, groceries, clothes, fuel, personal expenses, etc. In fact I don't think I personally know of any families that are not 2 income households and I think it's that way more by necessity than choice.

The bills don't stop coming.

[Honeywith4bees]

I'm a one income family but only because while my ex-husband loves our kids and loves to spend loads of time with them, he's not at all interested in financially supporting them.

(Gets more and more complex doesn't it?)

[missing]

Originally Posted by robc

I notice that most women don't like to stay at home and be a housewife and take care of the house & kids, it's not as fulfilling as it was once described. Most complain about going stir crazy and that working is a way to get out of the home and eliminate that problem. Plus with the cost of living as such, I think 2 income household is the most common out there, it's very hard to survive on one income alone. Things just cost so much more nowadays, how do you get buy on just one income? Rent/mortgage, utility bills, car payments, groceries, clothes, fuel, personal expenses, etc. In fact I don't think I personally know of any families that are not 2 income households and I think it's that way more by necessity than choice.

The bills don't stop coming.

I agree 100% but you've gotta wonder what effect women entering the workforce had in creating the necessity of two incomes. Almost overnight the workforce doubled, the jobs certainly did not. The government's solution of course is a little thing known as "inflation", the hidden tax. Very deliberate yet we've been conditioned to think of it as some inevitable fact of market forces or some such bullcrap. Not to mention more taxable income and kids having less time to be raised by parents, more time to be raised by the state (school and day care). But I'm sure I'll get flamed for bringing this stuff up...

[robc]

Originally Posted by missing

I agree 100% but you've gotta wonder what effect women entering the workforce had in creating the necessity of two incomes. Almost overnight the workforce doubled, the jobs certainly did not. The government's solution of course is a little thing known as "inflation", the hidden tax. Very deliberate yet we've been conditioned to think of it as some inevitable fact of market forces or some such bullcrap. Not to mention more taxable income and kids having less time to be raised by parents, more time to be raised by the state (school and day care). But I'm sure I'll get flamed for bringing this stuff up...

My godfather - an older, very wise italian man and one of the best men I've ever known in my life used to say when I was kid some 30+ years ago that kids spending all their time at daycare and not being raised at home was causing problems for the development of kids even back then. Kids are being raised by other people other than their parents, they aren't receiving the proper upbringing, everyone is focused on working and making money but we probably make less money now than we ever did before - things cost so much more know comparatively speaking than they used to and it's just a struggle, you have live paycheque to paycheque and that obviously brings it's own set of problems: never getting ahead, complaining & fighting about money, being angry because of the position you're in, feeling you have no alternatives, it's all very stressful. And who ends up getting an earful & eyeful of that stress, the kids that end up making it back home from daycare & school only to receive a couple of hours of interaction with their parents and the energy those parents have left is anything but nourishing & productive. Everyone's batteries are draining, we're running on empty and have nothing left to give. Is this how it is for every family? No. But for alot of families, this is everyday reality.

I wouldn't flame you, I don't think anyone should for that matter. You raised a valid point and it needed to be mentioned.

[Vasilisa]

See, everything is so complicated that we can't blame men or women alone.
A lot of people are struggling and unhappy. The way society is nowadays is not the best for everybody.
But we also have a lot of good things too. For example, if a man or a woman finds a working place he (or she) is happy in, then coming home back from work they are bringing good enerdy and warmth to their kids.
So, lets' all visualize our dream jobs and be happy!

[Jennihul]

Ok, this whole thread is infested with people's personal and somewhat dubious opinions about love and marriage and divorce which is fine but the bottom line is:

If you truly care about being with your children, you will do whatever it takes to get joint or solitary custody. Including getting a lawyer that will make that happen and paying him what he wants. Moms feel a strong maternal primal desire to make this happen and they reap the results because of it. If dads feel that desire, they will make it happen too.

The thread starter, who is the one that matters here, sounds almost passive about the whole thing. Like oh well, this is what they told me so I guess I have to live with it. That would be up to him, but if he wants better, he has no right to complain if he accepts less. My dad played that martyr card and it has contaminated him to this day. Not that he accepted less than nearly full custody. He just acted like they were never divorced and my mom gave up after awhile. They hang out now together with the grandkids.

As far as deadbeat dads, the are as many stories as there are divorces dads. But the kids should not suffer for mommy and daddy's dysfunctions. Too bad so many mommies and daddies lose all sense and start sniping each other.

In my state, at least in my region, the dads get the kids and the moms pay alimony and child support at least as often as the reverse. My friend's drug using deadbeat, barely employed, semi-mentally ill husband got full custody of his three boys and she had to pay child support because he had proof she went out partying with her friends while they were separated and divorcing and he paid a cuthroat lawyer. After the boys all quit school and started using drugs themselves and getting in trouble with the law and he became overwhelmed he finally admitted he sought custody out of spite because he knew she wanted the kids.

My friend from another state was the example I gave where the CEO husband quit his high paying job out of spite and went to work at a tire center and collected his paycheck under the table so he wouldn't have to pay child support.

This isn't about kids. It's about idiotic adults. Buncha fawking dysfunctional brats. Science should be able to turn on and off the mating function until you can prove you are mentally mature enough to reproduce.

Jennifer

[missing]

well first off let me say I'm glad we have jennihul to clarify what the "bottom line" is in the midst of this "infestation of people's dubious personal opinions". Mind you what she is saying here is seperate from all that nonsense, so let's listen as it must be important;

Originally Posted by Jennihul

If you truly care about being with your children, you will do whatever it takes to get joint or solitary custody. Including getting a lawyer that will make that happen and paying him what he wants. Moms feel a strong maternal primal desire to make this happen and they reap the results because of it. If dads feel that desire, they will make it happen too.

the difference of course is that mom's are generally working with the system, dad's against it. Sounds fair to me! I know some one will shoot back, "well that's life, it's not fair, that doesn't mean you should give up". Well you won't get any arguments about life being not fair from me. But to not giving up, that kinda talk sounds good in movies but in real life well, somethings are just impossible, and investing effort in them is irrational. You cannot fight city hall, and many men know this. That is why rather than fight the system head on, they skirt around it and do things like work under the table. You think your example CEO likes working at a tire shop, earning a low salary given that he's obviously capable of more? I suppose it's possible but more likely he doesn't see the point of stressing himself 24-7, working himself into an early grave so he can be an ATM machine. The fact that somebody with his stature would willingly downgrade his position in society just goes to show what men are up against.

Now I agree 100% that kids should not be suffering because of mommy and daddy not getting along. But why is it that men are expected to jump through all the hoops and make all the changes to keep a marriage intact? I imagine part of it is that a woman knows the courts our on her side, and plays that card the same way a man might play the martyr card. Only her card actually means something, thus you have far more divorces initiated by the woman. This thread is a great example, here the OP is spilling out something the way he sees it gets blasted for "not trying hard enough". If their is no gas in your tank you can't start your car, no matter how hard you "try". Bottom line is that his wife holds all the cards right now, and they both know it. He can jump through all the hoops in the world for her but she can still end the marriage. Or he can spare himself the dehumanizing effort and be viewed as a lazy dead beat. It's a no win situation.

My friend's drug using deadbeat, barely employed, semi-mentally ill husband got full custody of his three boys and she had to pay child support because he had proof she went out partying with her friends while they were separated and divorcing and he paid a cuthroat lawyer. After the boys all quit school and started using drugs themselves and getting in trouble with the law and he became overwhelmed he finally admitted he sought custody out of spite because he knew she wanted the kids.

well after years of women using the legal system to play dirty, why is it surprising that men have started doing the same? While I'm not defending his actions, you are calling him "mentally ill" which hardly makes him a fair example. In fact I'd say those most "mentally ill", sociopaths who disregard other people's feelings (of which there are many) are far less likely to get screwed by the system. They are always willing to play along to get what they want, and so long as they follow the rules they are normally obliged, irregardless of ethics.

[Jennihul]

Total cop out. Dad's have the same options as moms when it comes to representation in court and most of them opt out of getting their own attorney and hoping the woman doesn't screw them. Passive. Lame. He sacrifices his right to bitch and moan at that point. If a man supporting his children thinks he is an ATM, he should not have gifted his sperm to a woman in the first place.

Somehow, in the course of this thread, women became the evil bad guys. It is a statistical anomaly that you are exploiting. If a man beats his wife, she files for divorce. If a man cheats like a mo fo, she files for divorce. If a man smokes pot in the woods all day instead of having relations with his wife or seeing his kids, she files for divorce. (Another friend's tale of woe) If a man hangs with his buddies and drinks beer and plays cards all night, she files for divorce. If a man persistently contributes far less than he is capable of to the monetary fund at home and she gets sick of being the primary breadwinner AND having to do all the child rearing and housecleaning and lawn care, she files for divorce. (My mom)

It's not who files for divorce that is the signifcant statistic. It's who fails the marriage.

If the divorce is not final, they both hold all the cards. It's a matter of effort. What we don't know is how much effort he expended in other aspects of the marriage and his lack of effort in fighting for decent custody of his child may just be another symptom of a larger problem.

I'm sorry that your life experiences have corrupted your view of women to the degree that they have. But every bad event in a relationship usually has two people at fault, at least to some degree.

Jennifer

[Vasilisa]

Missing, your post sounds really angry and bitter.
May be all troubles you've got not because of the problems in the system, women ant etc, but your current state of mind?
I think it's really ridiculous that men and women start getting so upset, pointing fingers at each other and blaming, when we start discussing gender issues.
Men and women can demonstrate unconsious behavior, be mean and angry, it doesn't depend on gender.
In my opinion, probably because I am coming from the different culture, a man who doesn't want to take care of his own kids, is wrong, no matter what relationship he has with their mother. It's HIS children!
It's the same as a woman decides that' she is not going to take care of her kids any more only because she got divorced.

[missing]

Originally Posted by Jennihul

Total cop out. Dad's have the same options as moms when it comes to representation in court and most of them opt out of getting their own attorney and hoping the woman doesn't screw them. Passive. Lame. He sacrifices his right to bitch and moan at that point. If a man supporting his children thinks he is an ATM, he should not have gifted his sperm to a woman in the first place.

Somehow, in the course of this thread, women became the evil bad guys. It is a statistical anomaly that you are exploiting.

well I'm not saying that statistics are the final word on anything, but how exactly can you prove that the reason woman file for divorce is cause the man "fails" or "gives up"? How can you prove that the system is perfectly fair to men, they just don't try? And if in fact you are correct, and that men are simply not trying and it's a trend, why might this be? Is it that all men are "passive" and "lame" (which I personally think is a cop out), or is it something deeper?

Not to mention a man hoping his wife, who swore to stand by "in sickness and health" and all that crap (which I realize has NO meaning in the modern age), doesn't take him to the cleaners legally is "passive" and "lame"? I suppose you think long, drawn out legal battles with each side having a superstar attorney is just perfectly normal and in the best interest of the kids? Who after all are what's really important, am I right?

[missing]

well vasilisa I can't say I disagree with what you are saying, but I sense this tone of "moral superiority" in Jennihul's posts that I find disturbing, which is probably why my response sounds so bitter. Now maybe I'm imagining things, and it's just a "state of mind". It's certainly possible but as you can probably gather from my sig, I'm not a believer that one lives life in their head, at least not their whole life ;p. This is not the first time I've encountered this tone (or maybe "vibration") from a woman (or occasionally a man) on this kind of topic. It's actually quite common. I personally believe that the "system" subtly beats down on men and masculinity in a way that women simply cannot understand (thus the attitudes they develop calling men "passive" and "lame"). Now even though this idea is FAR from mainstream, I'm not the only person to recognize it, male or female (though obviously more men recognize it). So what exactly does one make of it? How is somebody supposed to respond? Simply "thinking positive" doesn't quite work as the feeling pervades. Should I ignore my intuition and pretend all is rosy with the world? If I fight back people like Jennhul, everyone gets riled up and more fuel gets thrown on the fire. If I ignore such people, or nod along to what they are saying, I feel marginalized. As far as I can tell it's a no-win situation.

[robc]

I personally have seen the following scenario a few times with close friends to believe that it's coincidental. In fact it's not coincidental at all, it's very predictable:

Women push men for commitment, they get what they want, women then lose interest in sex (how many men complain that the sex life diminishes after the wedding, it's not just a joke anymore, it's real), women become attracted to someone else, women start cheating, they become angry and resentful, they begin telling their partners that they need time apart, they blame their partners for their behavior which does wonders for a guy's brain, and eventually after making themselves and everyone around them miserable for a long period of time, they end their relationships or marriages.

None of my friends where these things happened were drug users, alcoholics, physically abusive, angry men. They are all fully employed, hard working men, who are good fathers whose only mistake apparently is giving "the gift of sperm" to the women they married and made a committment to be with forever. If fact if anything, these men gave up personal lives & individuality after they got married to make their wives happier because that's what was asked of them.

Both of these divorces happened last year, both of them involved the women having extramarital affairs (in one them, multiple affairs). All within a couple of years into the marriage. These men were invested in these relationships, asked their partners to seek marriage counselling, spoke with the priest that married them at the local church, consulted their spouses parents, etc. These were good men and their ex-wives to date don't wish them any ill-will so I don't think these men did anything in particular to cause their wives to leave them.

Are men stupid if they "give the gift of sperm" to their wives when the original intent on both of their parts is to have children and start a family? Seriously I'm getting tired of reading this statement of "give the gift of sperm", it's not intelligent and most men that get married want to have kids just as much as their wives. Making a statement like that to me means that as men, we should be holding on to our sperm and telling our wives that we don't want to give them this gift because we don't want the possibility of ending divorced and being labeled a deadbeat dad. We should remain guarded and not want to have children.

If men are bitter about the situation, aren't we entitled to have those feelings if the situation at hand calls for it? Or are we supposed to be cold, unfeeling and dead to the world just to make everyone else happy. Aren't both women and men allowed to have feelings or is this only allowed for women. It's cruel & unkind to call men bitter when they're going through divorce and facing the prospect of losing the ability to have contact with their children on a daily basis, let alone losing their wife and supposed life partner.

Currently, women are initiating 70 - 75% of all divorces. That would indicate to me that women are in the driver's seat when it comes to their relationships and the control they are able to exert.

Women are getting married and getting the things they are asking for, I can't believe this isn't the case considering all the power that women have in this present day. But that's the problem I think, they are getting everything they need & want without have to struggle for it and they end up feeling that something is missing in their lives because they're getting the things they want easily. They have all the things that they wanted—a home, a family, a great husband—but they feel they should be happier and that something is still missing. Some time after marriage, women begin to lose interest in sex with their husbands - they have the relationship they wanted, their is no more struggle or competition required: you work harder to get what you want and spend less energy keeping it. Then women begin to spend alot of energy trying to avoid physical contact with their husbands because they fear it might lead to a sexual encounter, how many men have heard things like "not tonight, I have a headache", or "I'm really tired" after they get married? How many times though did they hear those statements before they got married? Women will frequently complain of physical ailments to avoid having sex and often try to avoid going to bed at the same time as their husbands. Women begin to view sex as a job (why is this so because it feels like a job at this point, the struggle is over, their no competing for the husband anymore, they have what they wanted, why should they have to continue working as hard as they did before the marriage). Married women will complain that having sex is not unlike doing the dishes or going to the grocery store. It becomes a chore - they never complained about it before the marriage. Some women will even begin to feel violated when their husbands touch them, their bodies freeze up and they feel tightness in their chest and/or a sick feeling in their stomach. Some women will think their something wrong with themselves or that they are in some way defective and they will also be fearful that their disinterest in sex will cause their husbands to cheat, or leave them. And that is the beginning of the end for the marriage and what follows is a painful divorce for the husband who has to try to piece his life together and find the strength to carry on and continue to be a good father to his children regardless of his parental custody status and learn to be single again after a few years of marriage.

I've obviously only covered the aspect of marriage problems: female infidelity in this posting (yes male infidelity obviously exists but we're discussing women initiation divorce with their husbands not the other way around) but it's becoming more common place nowadays than it ever was and will not only continue to increase in the future. This is because women are not having to work as hard to get the things they want in life, the male/female roles have experienced a reversal in society, this switch in the power struggle is having it's effects.

Marriages/relationships are ending because of this role reversal. Men are involved much more in their relationships than they ever were 20,30, 50 years ago yet divorce has ballooned exponentially sinces those times - but no one is willing to explain this. Men help out more at the home and with the child rearing than in previous generations while still being the main wage earners in their families yet divorce is on the steady rise. Men are more emotionally sensitive to their partners than in previous generations yet women are still unfulfilled. Someone mentioned in a previous post that men are not "invested" in their relationships as much as they should be. I'll argue that men have placed more of a personal investment in their marriages & family life than in previous generations and divorce is still on the rise.

The reason is that we've stopped being men, we're ignoring our male specific characteristics in order to make our spouses "happier" (and this is what's causing the relationships to fail) and are ceasing to be men. Women are adopting a more dominant role in their relationships with men and in society in general and this is causing problems for marriages. "Deadbeat dad" is such a horrible label, no man grows up with the thought of becoming a deadbeat dad but he is labeled as such if he fights the divorce legally to defend himself so that his wife doesn't take him to the cleaners or if he lets her take him to the cleaners and drowns financially and can't support his wife & children after the divorce. Has anyone looked up the stats for suicide rates among divorced men & women? You will see that their is quite a difference, women are not likely to commit suicide after divorce but many men are. What does this tell you?

Agree or Disagree with me, it's your opinion, you're entitled to it. But if i'm wrong, please let me know. This is definitely a fantastic discussion, there is so much to talk about on this topic.