Deadbeat Dads?

[Vasilisa]

I agree that nowadays people are too nasty to their partners when things get to divorce. Personally I can't understand how people can sleep in one bed, smile to each other and etc and scheme a divorce with the lawyer behind the back of their spouse.
Shouldn't people become like blood relatives after living with each other for many years and having kids? But I guess when money is involved things change for many people.
In case when women don't want to have sex with their husbands and run off with other guys I would say - may be their husbands are really bad, boring lovers? May be they forgot how to make a woman happy or don't care any more?
I know a couple of guys whose wives ran off with other men. Those guys are very quiet, reserved types . And they were married to the vibrant, energetic, passionate women, whose were complete opposites of their husbands. They were very incompatible from the very beginning and at last women found somebody who can satisfy their thirst for emotions and passion.
I don't justify them, those people shouldn't have got married in the first place, but at least I can tell why they did it.
And you are right - a half-decent woman can easily find a good man to share her life with that's why they go for divorce so easily.
Say, in Russia it's an absolutely different story- women have to put a lot of efforts to keep their partners with them. The competition among women is very strong.

[Jennihul]

Ok, this thread is basically a woman-hating man cave of opinions so I'm out. Have fun festering, dudes.

Jennifer

[missing]

indeed, people like myself and robc take time and effort to give our views, and make genuine pleas to understand the other side of the coin (I think there were more questions than statements in my last post to Jen), and what does it get us? A bit of inflammatory name calling. Why even bother?

anyway, I'm not gonna try and tackle the bulk of robc's post as I really don't have too much experience with divorce, other than my parents, who have fallen for similar cultural trappings described by him. The details are slightly off but again, they are a bit older than the people robc is describing. That said, this bit is interesting;

Originally Posted by robc

If men are bitter about the situation, aren't we entitled to have those feelings if the situation at hand calls for it? Or are we supposed to be cold, unfeeling and dead to the world just to make everyone else happy. Aren't both women and men allowed to have feelings or is this only allowed for women. It's cruel & unkind to call men bitter when they're going through divorce and facing the prospect of losing the ability to have contact with their children on a daily basis, let alone losing their wife and supposed life partner.

Women? Cruel and unkind? Surely you jest.

In all serious though I'd say that in general, women do not want men getting in touch with and expressing their true feelings, despite what they say. I can hardly blame them, frankly. If they knew how most men truly viewed them deep down, I'm sure they'd be horrified, just as men are horrified when they realize just how callous and calculating female nature can be. The thing to note is that women are very adept at screwing with men's heads, to be blunt. They will do whatever they can to try and invalidate a man's feelings or perspective, and then instruct him as to how he "should" feel or see things, all whilst projecting an heir of moral superiority. Of course most men naively fall for it, due to a combination of social conditioning, as well as a genuine need for sex and emotional intimacy. Thanks in large part to the internet, (where women lose many advantages they have face to face) this seems to be changing (look at the popularity of 'pick up artists'); more men are becoming informed on reality, and acting accordingly.

Of course it goes without saying that what I just wrote is an incredibly "misogynist", "corrupted" view on women right? Well no, and here's why. I'm talking about female nature, not any specific women. It's like saying men are more aggressive and commit more violent crimes, which is obvious that they do. That doesn't mean that every individual man is a raping, killing robbing individual. Just cause one is a woman does not make her automatically an emotionally abusive person. But it still is in her nature, it is an integral part of her, just like physical aggression is an integral part of male nature. We've adapted these strategies over many many centuries as necessary in order to survive as species, to ensure the best genes are passed on. Even though in today's modern world such behavior may seem irrelevant and damaging, that doesn't change the fact that it's deeply ingrained within both our bodies and souls. The main thing to consider though, is while physical abuse is generally criminalized, emotional abuse is not. How can it be? At least with physical violence you can see the scars, not so with emotional. Women are essentially given a license to exercise (or not) their genetic strength to whatever degree they see fit, and not have to pay the price. Of course those that do take advantage of such license will deny that's what's happening, and they are simply "evening the score" against those evil men (cause women cannot be evil), or whatever, and if men don't adapt and catch on well "tough sh*t for those morons, they shouldn't have been so naive". Indeed, to be so naive as to trust another human being. What stupidity.

anyway, if you want to see the behavior I'm describing one needs to look no further than this comment directed at me:

I'm sorry that your life experiences have corrupted your view of women to the degree that they have.

note the language, the condescending "sorry", the implication that my view is "corrupted", as if thinking as women anything other than "sugar and spice and everything nice" is such a horrible tragedy on my part, when all I'm doing is adapting to reality as a means of survival. Granted, my view on female nature (not so much individual women) is "corrupted" in a certain sense as I don't hold the old innocent naive views about it that society encourages. But I'm young enough and not yet bitter enough to hold out a small degree of hope that some woman will recognize that female nature is not perfect and moral, as is commonly accepted about male nature, and that as a woman she should be expected to watch for such deviant behaviors inherent within her, just as I must do as a man in order for us to have a civil relationship. But if she can't even admit to herself that there might be something inherently manipulative about her, well than we are going to get nowhere, and the so called "gender war" will grind our society and culture into oblivion.

[Erki]

So men have to live with the struggle of holding themselves back from raping and killing? So women have to live with the struggle of holding themselves back from being emotionally abusive and manipulative?

So... as a whole humanity, we have to hold ourselves back from our true natures...?

Why? Why could we never be ourselves? I have enough on my plate(about being not myself), why do I have to buy into the belief that I am aggressive and try to suppress myself from it(something that's maybe not real anyway?)?

Shoot me for being idealistic. Again..

[missing]

Originally Posted by Erki

Why? Why could we never be ourselves? I have enough on my plate(about being not myself), why do I have to buy into the belief that I am aggressive and try to suppress myself from it(something that's maybe not real anyway?)?

You don't have to buy into anything, nor do you have to accept reality as it actually is, though you do so at your own peril. If you don't want to believe my version than that's perfectly fine, though if you end up getting burned for not acknowledging things I mention, well don't come back crying for sympathy when you were clearly warned. The thing about many men who were taken to the cleaners in divorce court is that many didn't have fair warning. More or less their culture betrayed them. As divorce and broken marriages become more the norm it's getting to the point where men have fewer excuses, although I'd argue there is a ways to go before I can really blame a lot of them. There are still a lot of ways for this culture to sucker you in.

But go be idealistic if you want. I never claimed to have all the answers, I'm just calling it the way I see it, not necessarily the way it "is".

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by missing

The thing to note is that women are very adept at screwing with men's heads, to be blunt. They will do whatever they can to try and invalidate a man's feelings or perspective, and then instruct him as to how he "should" feel or see things, all whilst projecting an heir of moral superiority.

It's been my experience that men are not only capable of this as well, but at least one that I know has elevated it to an art. I am right now in a state of shock at just how much he's messed with my head.

It hurts like I feel no one could imagine (although I am sure lots of others have had the experience).

I think both men and women commit painful mistakes in relationships, however I don't agree that women are the only ones who act as you described. A divorce is not a cut and dried thing. There is no way for any of us to know the reasons, so why not stop placing blame and start practicing compassion. I've not met anyone, male or female, who has not had a heartbreak.

The bitterness I see here toward women breaks my heart as well. I hope that my recent experiences don't color my perception of men in the same way. Because screwing with my head and heart, emotional manipulation and abandonment were the order of the day.

Sorry to bring my own non-marriage experience in. I just don't think it's one sided -- on either side.

[missing]

It's been my experience that men are not only capable of this as well, but at least one that I know has elevated it to an art. I am right now in a state of shock at just how much he's messed with my head.

well I agree that men do in fact do this but I don't believe it comes as naturally to most men. In many ways that makes it much worse as it means they are being calculating, whereas most women aren't even thinking about what they are doing. To be a predator in today's culture (and at the core, men generally make better predators), be it in business or relationships, one needs to know how to manipulate emotions. If one can do this they will be rewarded handsomely, financially or otherwise. Ethics don't really play into it. I think one reason we see more women doing better than men in school, is that our culture is more or less oriented towards the female nature of things, despite claims about the "patriarchy" or whatever. The few men at the top, the true predators, recognize this and adapt, and thus hold all the positions of high power. Women make the mistake (which they are conditioned for) of thinking them representative of all men as being "in power" which in turns breeds resentment from average everyday men. These men then recognize that to "make it" they themselves need to adapt strategies that come more naturally for females. They do more work for the same reward and get very bitter about it. A select few apply some male strengths (the ability to be more rational and emotionally detached) and start directing their anger towards women and other men, the ones who don't adapt similar strategies. Such men rise to the top create a culture of predators which women perpetuate (by rewarding predatory men sexually). It's kind of a vicious cycle.

ok sorry that was rambly and will probably confusing but I couldn't really make it more concise and get across my point (which I'm not sure I really have). Just like women can be physically aggressive, men can be emotionally manipulative. I still consider the former "male" thing and the latter a "female" thing, the yin and the yang if you will. The issue is when you combine male aggressive instincts with a culture than not only inhibits but rewards female emotional manipulation, you get some true sociopaths as it appears you've run into (and though most likely men they can be women as well).

I think both men and women commit painful mistakes in relationships, however I don't agree that women are the only ones who act as you described. A divorce is not a cut and dried thing. There is no way for any of us to know the reasons, so why not stop placing blame and start practicing compassion. I've not met anyone, male or female, who has not had a heartbreak.

if we can't figure out the reality of the general cultural trends behind the commonality of heartbreak, how are we ever going to end it? Unfortunately "practicing compassion" is the very thing that gets people into trouble. It makes them vulnerable in a dating pool swimming with predators.

The bitterness I see here toward women breaks my heart as well. I hope that my recent experiences don't color my perception of men in the same way. Because screwing with my head and heart, emotional manipulation and abandonment were the order of the day.

for the record, if I come off as "bitter towards women" I can assure you that I am not. I'm simply trying to understand the truth behind female nature which I believe I have been lied to and manipulated about through social conditioning. If I'm bitter about anything it is the failure of our culture to help us become anything more than consumers in a market economy, which has infiltrated every aspect of our lives right down to the intimate details of our interpersonal relationships.

[Vasilisa]

Missing, you are writing very long posts full of anger and bitterness. I don't know why... You are mad because your parents got divorced and your Mom wasn't nice to you and Dad or something? There is a deep wound in you which didn't heal. Reading your posts I don't feel like counter-attacking, I am just sad and want to say that' it's not true.
You know when I got here and started dating some men were saying that American women are not as good and attractive as girls from other cultures.
But after a while I started realizing they were wrong. They wanted to see women that way, no matter what kind of women they had around they would still be hostile.
Actually women have as much social pressure as men do, only in different areas. Say, they are forced to believe that they are less worthy when they age and their beauty fades. All these TV and glamour magazines' standards are making them insecure and self-hating. Nowadays they have to work, take care of the family and the house. Because men are getting so feminine, women have to be more proactive and so on.
I just want to say that it's not easy for anyone - men or women.
There is no need to be so defensive and upset.

[Erki]

Originally Posted by Vasilisa

Because men are getting so feminine, women have to be more proactive and so on.

I see this as some recurring theme on this thread.

How exactly are men getting so feminine?

[missing]

Originally Posted by Vasilisa

There is no need to be so defensive and upset.

unless of course you are upset and need to be defensive because your core essence is constantly under attack. I don't want to post another long drawn our reply as I feel like I've hijacked this thread enough, but you are exhibiting the very female-behavior of telling me how I should view things, and how I should feel. Never mind how I do see things or feel. If I am correct I do believe you are male?

[Vasilisa]

Well, they are not active, afraid to show interest in women, painfully shy, quiet and etc.
It's hard to explain 100%, but that's how I feel. And I feel like women around me are not feminine enough either - too loud, noisy, pushy.
But because I am into LOA now, I think I might be attracting this kind of people in my life lately .

[Erki]

Originally Posted by Vasilisa

Well, they are not active, afraid to show interest in women, painfully shy, quiet and etc.
It's hard to explain 100%, but that's how I feel. And I feel like women around me are not feminine enough either - too loud, noisy, pushy.
But because I am into LOA now, I think I might be attracting this kind of people in my life lately .

So I have to be loud, noisy and pushy instead? And what's wrong with being quiet (for me) or noisy (for women)?

Looks like some characteristics are only available to one gender.

[Vasilisa]

No, I am a woman.
I hope it was a joke.
I didn't try to tell what to feel I just wanted to comfort you and say that things are not that bad.

[Vasilisa]

It's all my personal stuff really. I was raised in different conditions and adjusted different set of beliefs.
I got to believe that testosterone makes males active, a bit agressive, driven and etc.
And estrogen makes women soft, feminine, motherly, etc.
But of course we have different hormone levels and it all depends on people.
In general naturally it's supposed to be like that I think - men are active, women -passive. Women nurture, men protect. Men are conqueres, women -keepers. And so on.
But in modern society it seems like roles get reversed a bit. Or it might be in my mind again.

[missing]

Originally Posted by Vasilisa

No, I am a woman.
I hope it was a joke.
I didn't try to tell what to feel I just wanted to comfort you and say that things are not that bad.

well things are what they are, irrelevant of good or bad. I admit to being somewhat reactionary in this thread even though I stand by everything I said. I think I figured out though what set me off, something somebody said, a contradiction. I won't bother pointing it out as I don't see the purpose but I didn't really recognize it until after I made most of my posts so... make of that what you will.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Amadeus

I believe there is a disconnect between how the media and society in general portrays "deadbeat dads" and what is actually reality. The other week my soon to be ex-wife and I were watching ABC's Extreme Makeover about a single mother of about 5 or 6 kids getting the once in a life time pleasure of acquiring a new house from ABC. A few minutes into the show my wife for four years said sort of in a smart ass way, "I hate to be judgmental, but where is their Dad". Keep in mind my wife will be filing for divorce after our house sells even though I want to desperately continue the marriage and we have a 19 month old daughter who we both adore. I thought about keeping my mouth shut after the comment but I just couldn't resist this one. I said, "well maybe THEIR mother decided that she didn’t love her husband any longer and that it was better to live from a broken home than in one". My wife had a “deer caught in headlights look” on her face and said, "that was a low blow". But it is true isn't it?

I for years had a negative impression of my childhood friends who lived with just their mothers and who had unseen fathers. I thought "why in the world did their dad leave his family? What was wrong with him?" I've heard countless of stories on the news about "deadbeat" dads being put in jail for not paying child support or them taking off (kidnapping their own kids) out of state. These men were villains in my mind, yet if you do the research you'll find that 2 out of 3 divorces are filed by the wife and in over 90 percent of the cases the wife always gets custody. When I look at my situation I realize I too will be looked in the same light. Sure I'll pay the child support, but I won't be there with my daughter every evening to hug her and to read to her before going to bed. I'll make the time that I have with her the best I can possibly make it, but they'll still be so many missed opportunities that I would have shared with her if my wife would have kept with the commitment of "I do". What if my wife moves out of state and leaves me without seeing my sweetheart for months at a time? I couldn't bare it but it is always a possibility and as the "man" or should I say partial custody parent of my daughter I only have limited rights. Don't get me wrong I know there are some women who had to get out of their marriages due to physical or emotional abuse, but when you decide knowingly to be intimate with someone who could be the father of your baby you must look at what is in the best interest of that child. I can't help but knowing that some people, who have a picture of me already made up in their minds, will say "I hate to be a smart ass, but where is her dad?".

Yes. It's difficult for you. Leaving aside why the marriage is over, you have the child to think about. Too may parents use them as ammunition. Prepare yourself also for someone else bouncing your daughter up and down on their knee and kissing them goodnight. This can rip the heart out of people.
Unfortunately the only area of law that hasnt moved along egailtarian lines has been family law and custody rights.

I have no sage words to offer you other than time is a great healer.

You might have in the short term a poorer relationship with your daughter, but perhaps the break with your wife might open up new opportunities for you, should that be the inevitable result of your marriage.
Both parties have to be willing for reconcilliation and or marital solutions. If someone really doesnt want to be part of it, then its better to get out and rebuild. Best of luck. In the last few weeks of your marriage I would position myself in the best possible way to remain, if possible, on talking terms (even to the point of being machiavellian) and 'involved' in the decision making process for access rights to your daughter. Fights end up in tit for tat moves.

[robc]

Originally Posted by Vasilisa

Missing, you are writing very long posts full of anger and bitterness. I don't know why... You are mad because your parents got divorced and your Mom wasn't nice to you and Dad or something? There is a deep wound in you which didn't heal. Reading your posts I don't feel like counter-attacking, I am just sad and want to say that' it's not true.
You know when I got here and started dating some men were saying that American women are not as good and attractive as girls from other cultures.
But after a while I started realizing they were wrong. They wanted to see women that way, no matter what kind of women they had around they would still be hostile.
Actually women have as much social pressure as men do, only in different areas. Say, they are forced to believe that they are less worthy when they age and their beauty fades. All these TV and glamour magazines' standards are making them insecure and self-hating. Nowadays they have to work, take care of the family and the house. Because men are getting so feminine, women have to be more proactive and so on.
I just want to say that it's not easy for anyone - men or women.
There is no need to be so defensive and upset.

I don't sense any anger or bitterness in his posts.
This is science plain & simple, he has a clue about human nature, both male & female aspects. He's trying to explain it. If he was to candy coat his descriptions about female human nature, it wouldn't be accurate and that would be a failure on his part. Read his posts for what they are, an accurate description & reasons behind human nature. He isn't attacking women.

[robc]

Originally Posted by Erki

I see this as some recurring theme on this thread.

How exactly are men getting so feminine?

Is that a question you really can't answer yourself?

You really don't see men as being more feminine today as opposed to 20, 30, 50 years ago? You see no differences in male behavior in this generation as opposed to previous generations?

WOW!

[Erki]

Originally Posted by robc

Is that a question you really can't answer yourself?

You really don't see men as being more feminine today as opposed to 20, 30, 50 years ago? You see no differences in male behavior in this generation as opposed to previous generations?

WOW!

No, I'm not kidding. I guess men were "harder" and "tougher" back then perhaps? Is that better than what men are now?

[robc]

although you only mention a few male characteristics out of the many that have changed.

Better is a subjective term.

I will say this though, it's easier to find a half-decent man nowadays than it probably ever was in previous generations: someone who is kind, sensitive, decent, with a strong sense of family and with the want & ability to help raise a family/children.

That may be part of the problem with the divorce rate on the rise. It's too easy to find a good man. When you get tired with one, you can drop him and find another and rationalize it as "falling out of love" and "growing apart". The problem with that is that the pattern repeats itself which is why divorce rates for 2nd & 3rd marriages is even higher than 1st marriages. If it was because "falling out of love", and the same woman remarries a 2nd & 3rd time after that, we haven't identified the real problem as to why these marriages aren't lasting.

Since 70-75% of divorces are initiated by women isn't anyone interested in why this stat is so high and particularly one-sided? We should be asking questions and determining what's going on here - the rate is too high to be coincidental.