Hopeless Life Situation, and an unusual (hurtful?) boyfriend

[Silent Lucidity]

First I want to say hello to everyone. I've been reading Steve Pavlina's blog and articles since October of 2007. The positivity of Steve helped me get through a rough fall, reminded me of intention/manifestation. I've read a lot of the posts on here. I wanted to come in and use the forum to help others, to try to give advice... well I basically ran out of time, and I've been debating whether to post about this problem for a few months...

I have been in a serious loving relationship for three years... we met on e harmony when I was in grad school in the US... it seemed we had a lot in common, we still do. We love time outdoors, nature, intellectual debates, etc. Since I got out, I have tried for the last two years to find work in my field, as a professor of studio art. They do hire straight from grad school, and many of my professors said I had a good chance at this... I applied every year... in the meantime working temporary admin work, illustration contracts, etc. Whenever a company wanted to hire me from the temp agency, if they found out I had an MFA, or a minor vision impairment, I would then no longer be considered for the admin job. I was both over and under-qualified. Until they learned of these things, they always said I was a wonderful dedicated worker, intelligent, great personality and all that... well I should get to the point... I kept the flexible temp work so I could travel with my partner and eventually progress things and get married.

A destructive pattern has perhaps always been there... when we were living together during visits; (him at my place, or me at his place), he keeps to himself, mostly involved in chatting online, and to tired, quiet or shy to go out with me or sometimes my friends. He's very sweet but very quiet and shy. When we are apart, he gets very upset if I'm not there for him, on chat, for a few hours every day. I love to go out, to be with friends, to meditate, to read, to spend hours painting or singing or creating music. I grew up 'fortunate', and though visually impaired, there are so many things I love to do. He loves the outdoors but doesn't have any 'hobbies' of his own... mostly he looks to me to entertain him, in the form of solving 'problems' in the relationship. I love him so much and I'm deeply attached to him, I try to encourage him to learn to play the keyboards, or get into electronics, sports, or something, anything so he'll derive some happiness from being alone on occasion. I wish I could help him find some guy-buddy friends too.

We're not living together. He's on the east coast, I'm in western Canada. They raised the rent in Calgary, and I was forced to give up my appartment and move back into my parents' house in a small town in British Columbia. I'd been on my own for seven years, and it is hard to live here at times. My family is great though They've been generous and understanding, and they make fun of everything and don't let me get too depressed about it.

What happened is that I had spend too much time traveling with my boyfriend, mostly he wanted me to come camping for a month, or to Hawaii with his family as his mom wasn't well..., but then I didn't have enough to pay rent, when they sold my apt, I had to leave, I couldn't meet the new landloard's contract...

It wasn't so bad because moving home temporarily and the free place to live would help us progress the relationship and get married... no rent to pay while we travelled back and forth for visa requirements.... so last May I moved to BC, last August I went to live with him for a few months... this is when the serious problems started. I was essentially ignored. he watched the stock market every day at home (he has an even worse eye condition and doesn't want to work) and at night he was watching tv or on forums (lol). We saw each other at dinner, when I cooked it, but the news was on while we ate, so we didn't converse. We didn't go to bed together much. He stays up very late. I went for hour-long walks alone every day, and painted in his garage, and used his home-gym a lot. Oh and I read a lot of Steve's articles lol. We went to the mall every weekend but often I'd rather go to art galleries, or live music events, or movies, or hiking.... we didn't do any of these things. It was like pulling teeth to get him to go out so we could get groceries.... (fruits and veggies are considered a 'splurge'.... he's financially secure, btw) we couldn't go for a walk together, or go to bed at the same time... or talk in the evenings... he lives with his twin and that complicates things... I went back to Canada in Nov, and have been here ever since, living with my family, teaching a few courses, and trying to figure out what to do next...

This month I was busy writing and a song, and I was so involved (It made me SO HAPPY, happier than anything has in ages, better even than making art...!!!) in that that I wasn't on chat at all...I still emailed every day, and he went nuts... said that he was no longer the priority... a lot of bad fights over that one.... Now I'm back on chat, to try to heal what I did, and he's angry about something else...I try to do what he needs in the relationship, but whenever I do what he wants, he changes his mind... I am a series of problems to be 'solved'... It has always been like this... I just want someone who loves me for what I am.... who doesn't yell... I have never experienced much yelling as a child or in any other relationship. Not like this.

If it's not my diet, it's my need for spiritual beliefs, or my spending habits and the way I was raised... (even when I pull out the numbers and show how my only debt is my grad school student loan, and I've lived well below the poverty level for the last few years, and not incurred any debt) and yet he claims I 'splurge' ...and he can teach me.... and he claims to love me deeply and want to get married... he just wants to help me fix things that are wrong with me... (including an unhealthy emotional attachment to my family....) he claims that as long as I am dedicated enough and make him the priority over everything else that we can fix all our problems... This feels strange... Over time I'm realizing that I don't -want- to change. I tried to change for two years, and the self that resulted was deeply unhappy. When I changed, he'd change what he wanted...he'd move on to 'fix' another problem... I always felt bad about something... I have some true friends who I have asked truly and honestly, and they think I'm a good person with no problems like what he says I have.....Lately he's saying I'm arrogant and narcisistic... he sent me an 'npd' (narcissistic personality disorder) quiz, I scored within the normal range for normal people... so he said I fudged the answers...

It's difficult when I'm so deeply attached, in some sort of way, to his 'soul' or 'essence'. I feel a very deep soul connection, and at times I think there's no one else out there for me.... how does one go about realizing if I really do need to change, or if this is in fact a destructive situation?

How do I go about getting back the original person I fell in love with???? Can I? Is it even possible? My parents mostly want to wring his neck, as after talks on the phone with him I'm devastated, crying and then I can't work for days..., for thinking about all the things he says... I'm so much happier on my own but maybe he's right that I'm not ready for a serious relationship.... but all my other serious relationships before this were fine and very loving and wonderful, or at least 'normal'.... every communication with him makes me doubt myself so deeply... as a creative person, self-doubt is the biggest enemy... it causes paralysis lol...so an ego is acutally a useful shield of sorts in the arts, but I can't make him understand that.... I don't know how to get out of this situation.... or if I can change it with LoA from within... that's what I'd like to do.... there were so many good things... we both enjoyed nature...he's committed, sweet, funny, loyal, physically ideal...lol.....

I know this is a long one, and I deeply thank anyone who has the paitience to read it....

I'm excited to read Steve's book too... maybe there will be some answers in there!!!

Peace

[The Cloud]

Hahaha, I find this to be a very funny situation. Don't be offended, but normally with this kind of post it would be the person like you asking how they can change their significant other into being more social or caring or something else. And here you are, saying that it's your anti-social clingy jobless fiance that is trying to change you to be more like him!

One thing that you can do is to try and understand his behavior. Simply ask him why he needs something from you, such as why does he need to chat with you online for hours a day. Then, for his answer, ask why he believes that. It's the Socratic method, and it is extremely effective for finding people's motivations (including your own). Do this, and you'll find that you will get some extremely odd logical connections that he is making to arrive at his conclusions. If he says that he doesn't know the answer, insist that he keep thinking about it. He will find one, because there is a reason. Do this until you get to a point where the belief seems so basic that it can't become any more fundamental.

The more specific the question, the better. Asking "why do you love me?" is pretty broad. Here's an example of what could happen.

Why do you feel the need for me to communicate with you online for hours a day?
Because I love you.
Why does loving me make that important?
Because if you don't talk to me, you don't love me.
Why do you believe that I need to talk to you online all the time to love you?
Because I'm afraid that if you don't, you don't love me.
Why are you afraid that I don't love you?

I just made this up, so it might not be perfect. But I think you can get the gist of what I'm saying here. Avoid asking why he does things, such why does he love you. Go more for why he feels or believes things, such as why do you feel or believe that this is important to loving me. Why are you afraid, why are you angry, why does that make you happy. (This all assumes that love isn't an emotion, which I don't believe that it is)

As an added bonus, you can't do this without him, so he will also see what connections he is making. Once you understand this, you can go to a certain point that seems to be unreasonable and ask him why he believes that it is reasonable for him to believe this? You aren't going to be able to attack the thing that he wants you to do or the way he wants you to change directly, but you can indirectly question a deeper belief, which will lead to a more pervasive change in him than one superficial behavior.

You can't change him directly simply by telling him that you are right and he is wrong. If he's at point A, and you are at point B, he isn't going to know how to get from what he believes to what you believe directly. Since he thinks he's right, he isn't going to be motivated to find the path, either. All you can do is find out what he believes, and if it's unreasonable point out why he is believing like that. If you are logically correct, this will eventually lead to your point B. If you aren't, then you certainly don't want to be at point B anyways. Perhaps there is a point C that neither of you are aware of. It is absolutely essential that you don't try to guide him toward a certain conclusion in the initial questioning part, or he may feel as if you tricked him. Simply ask the questions, and question the answers. You can do your guiding later, once you've figured out why he believes as he does.

[Silent Lucidity]

Hello Cloud,

This is very interesting... philosophy is something I should get into more... I read 'Sophie's World' a long time ago My partner loves debating, and usually he can out-debate me, and he is very proud of his ability to use logic and reason to solve problems. I know he'll spot what I'm trying to do, I'll have to be subtle but it is worth a try. I'm really interested in doing this to myself too
I have tried to change him. I'm not proud of it, as you're supposed to love the person for who they are at that moment in time. I have tried to get him to be more social and caring by trying to relate to him on his level, using his reasoning, trying to explain what I mean by things, trying different actions, different patterns, well, everything...I got tired of being the one to try all the time, so I just stopped. If I can't live with him as he is now, I shouldn't be in the situation. So now, he says I'm being fake...etc...the various accusations cause me to not want to call as much...
I'll try the questioning... And you're right, I'm not offended. The situation is funny

[uberinquisitive]

I read a book that here are 3 components to the success and mutual happiness of a relationship: practical, sexual, and "spiritual."

Practical is how well you guys get along on a day to day basis - so, two organized people who are focused on their career and are morning people are better matched in this respect than one of the partners being a night owl who is a slob and more concerned with vacation time than furthering their career.

Sexual is, well, obvious.

Spiritual is the X-factor, the friendship. Does he make you feel great about yourself? Is there chemistry and emotional ease? If he were a straight girl, would you guys be best friends?

The most compatible relationships have 3 out of 3. Most people have only 1 or 2 out of the 3.

It sounds like you guys don't have the practical aspect. This will make for a tougher relationship. It's up to you to decide if you want to look for a guy who can give you all 3 (and there DEFINITELY are guys like that out there).

[Holistic Star]

The thing that worries me most about your post is that he's accusing you of mental illness, and accusing you of fudging an online test about it. Is this the action of a loving, supporting partner? After speaking on the phone you are "devastated, crying and then I can't work for days". That's just not right.

It also concerns me that you blame yourself for 'not being ready for a serious relationship' because you are 'happier on your own'. Well I'm not surprised you are happier on your own rather than spending time with someone who is needy, demanding, critical, insisting that you have mental health problems and loads of problems that needed fixing and wants to change you into someone you are not.

You say: 'all my other serious relationships before this were fine and very loving and wonderful, or at least 'normal'.... So you can rest assured that you are capable of loving relationships, there isn't something dreadfully wrong with you that makes you incapable of having a good relationship. It is just this relationship that isn't working right now.

Confidence can so easily be chipped away at inside a relationship. You say your partner has changed, I'll bet you are much less confident now than you were at the start of the relationship, but it has happened so gradually you didn't notice it happening.

You ask about using the LOA to improve your relationship. You can't change someone against their will, so unless he is willing to change then you are wasting good visualising time! You can change your circumstances, or you can change your reaction to him - (e.g.instead of spending your time on chat desperatly trying to appease him, you can tell him that when you will be around and he can like it or lump it).

You mentioned getting out of the situation. Do you mean, how to leave him? Or do you mean improving the relationship? If you knew that you couldn't change him and it was going to be like this always what would you do?

You sound so unhappy - really your relationship should be a source of strength and happiness for you. Yes, even good relationships have their bumpy patches, but even then there is love and support there to help you both grow together. Apart from the deep connection you feel - what else are you getting from this relationship that you are giving so much to?

[Silent Lucidity]

Thank you, Star, for your response Others have said the same thing. My partner says that I am too defensive, and he's only telling me what he observes... I've done a lot of objective soul searching to see if what he says is really true.... It's hard to be objective when I get so confused about who is projecting on to each other and who is who. He says I lack empathy for the needs of others... I know his need to have me there, put the relationship first is very important...

I don't really blame myself that much, I do wonder at times if there is any truth in what he says, regarding being ready for a serious relationship. I've had two other 'serious' relationships in my earlier 20's, each one was unique and ended for different reasons. I dated a lot as a teenager also. With this one, I just want to know I did everything I could possibly do to make this work out. Personal growth and understanding is so important to me that I feel if any of this is my fault, than therefor I have the power to fix it. Someone who was a star diplomat and loving person would not likely be in the situation I am in...

Confidence can so easily be chipped away at inside a relationship...

Yes this is true... I was a different person then, a happy, high-achiever, loads of friends, the 'poster-child' of the electronic arts department...respect from my professors... now, at times I can't even get out of bed in the mornings, since I'd rather be dreaming.... My life/career has progressed much more slowly in the last three years. My parents and brother are the people who notice most...(because I live with them now) they keep saying he's destroying me, but then I'm afraid they are biased, having unconditional love for their child programmed in biologically.

Others have noticed it to some extent, but I haven't said much to friends about this, because it feels wrong to say such things about someone you are with. My partner really believes that too, and introduced me to the idea of keeping problems within the relationship, and not gossiping to friends about it, if you want the friends to like who you are with.

I moved home to the parents house to help my partner financially, so there wouldn't be the cost of rent to cover during the visa process. Now he says that he can't be with someone who is co-dependant with their parents. That was the email I got this morning. I cringe as I write this, I'm deeply ashamed of even writing this stuff but I do truly need some objective opinons, and you people are very wonderful, logical, perceptive and sane

I had been trying what you suggested, just saying when I'd be around and that was that... It is this, changing my reaction to him, and just not being around while I was working on music that caused him to go nuts... I can't see structures of music and pay attention to a chat at the same time . I guess he lumped it.

Regarding the LoA, I was referring to an article written by Steve, that said it is possible to change destructive situations from within,... that was in 'the Secret' too... how you visualize and be thankful for the best qualities your partner has, and they then become only those things to you. But that takes a lot of energy. I've managed to do it a bit... I had to when I was living down there... but I want something that gives energy back too.

As I write this I realize that it's 'solving problems' that validates him as a person, and it may be that there were always problems to solve... but I was always there instantly, ready to do whatever it took to make it work...I'm not that way anymore... and I don't know why.... when he brings up a problem now, I just want to run and hide in a drawing or a job hunt or a book or anywhere else...

He believes he says mean things because I hurt him so badly in deciding to wait a bit to do the visa. I also cancelled a visit because I had a once-in-a-lifetime career opportunity I wanted to pursue. Also, I'm afraid to go back down there and be sleep deprived and neglected without any way/support to do my own hobbies or work...

Star, if I knew he would always be like he's being now, bringng up major issues at least twice a week, I would leave. He says that if I can put the relationship first, than everything would be okay... but I don't know, because of how he gets when there is a problem. Life is full of challenges all the time...so I guess you have to be with someone who's style of problem solving is compatable with yours.

The good qualities are his depth and sweetness when things are good, his sense of humor, his loyalty and willingness to talk and talk until things are worked out (I've never had that before)... As for what I'm 'getting'? I don't really know what you mean by that...? Can you explain? I keep thinking that he'll come around and it's because we're going through a rough time that all this is such a mess... I keep hoping things will get better.

Thank you for taking the time to advise me on this...

[Silent Lucidity]

Hello UberInquisitive,

I would have to say we have about 40% of each of the three aspects... we have some of all three.

The practical is the hardest, as we both have different standards of living, and different ways we want to spend our time, and different internal clocks.

The spiritual is hard as well but getting better. He used to really criticize my beliefs, as they are eclectic, new-age-ish, nature-spirituality, like the stuff in 'what the bleep do we know' etc, and his are strictly main-stream science.. I love science and different ideas, and he's deeply against any form of faith. he's more open minded now... I think I've finally gotten him to not actively put it down...

As a friend... I can't imagine... it's been so long since we've been 'friends' that I just don't know. It could be okay for awhile... I'm not sure it would last a lifetime, like my other best friends.

The sexual is difficult to explain what's good and bad... well it's easy to explain but I don't want to ;0) it shows promise but I'm not sure... but emotionally very deep and caring.

[Holistic Star]

What's his deal with diagnosing you with mental illnesses all the time? I think he has OCPDDS (obsessive compulsive personality disorder diagnosing syndrome) which is very serious and incurable... ok I just made that up, but do you get my point?

Yes by all means use the LOA to work on the relationship if the problem is that your otherwise loving partner insists on leaving their dirty laundry on the floor. When the problem is that your confidence is left on the floor it's a different ball game.

He keeps telling you to put the relationship first - but he isn't. If he was, he would want you to do your art or take the once in a lifetime career opportunity because that is what makes you happy. Please stop blaming yourself for not being loving enough.

silent lucidity - take some time and go deep into your intuiton. What does your intuition tell you to do? What does you heart say is best for you?

[Holistic Star]

Just one more thought. I was in an emotionally abusive relationship a long time ago. I remember hinting to friends early on about how bad it was but not specifically saying what was going on.

I think I wanted them to give me permission to leave. I wanted someone to say it was ok to give up on a relationship that wasn't working. That I didn't have to be perfect, that I could just say - 'you know what, this isn't what I want' and that would be ok to do. He made me feel so responsible for his problems and issues, I lost sight of what I wanted out of life.

So SL - if what you are really asking for is permission to end your relationship, then you have it. If you are not happy, and you have tried to make it work and it isn't working, then end it and live the life you want to if that is what you really want.

Please don't think I am telling you that you have to end it. In the post above when I asked you want your heart really wanted, I wasn't trying to lead you either way, it was a genuine quesion. Only you can answer it. I just remember feeling for some inexplicable reason that I needed permission and there were so many parallels between us I wondered if you did too.

[Angela]

SL, there is absolutely nothing wrong with you that needs to be fixed. You are perfectly perfect exactly as you are.

He is, too, by the way.

And just because you are two perfect beings, doesn't mean you are perfect for each other. What do you think a relationship is? Why do you want to be in one? Does what you want in a relationship mesh with what is being created by you both in this relationship?

How long are you willing to put his well-being ahead of your own?

[Silent Lucidity]

It's hard for me to see that I'm putting his well-being ahead of my own. I tried Cloud's Socratic Questioning last night on the phone. You know what? There wasn't a fight. It totally calmed him down. He had so much to think about that he forgot to think about being mean to me. Thank you Cloud, I'll remember that technique forever.

I didn't get to the bottom of his beliefs, he kept trying to question me instead, or saying 'well it's obvious' when I asked him further questions about his answers. We talked about a potential visit. It was such a relief not to fight, that I thought there might be hope for us after all.

An hour or so after I got off the phone, I felt dizzy for no reason at all, the brain-fog was worse than ever. I could hardly hold a coherent thought in my head. I thought about what I ate, etc etc but nothing clicked. I'm wondering now if the sense of dizziness and unreality was my intuition telling me not to do this next visit, that I wouldn't be happy.

This morning, I realized that thinking about all of this over the weekend distracted me from something I really wanted to do, an event that I really wanted to attend later this summer. I actually felt that sick sick feeling in my gut when I realized that they might never tour again and I missed my chance for the good seats because of the brain-fog that I get when constanlty thinking about him and how to save 'us'.

We were fighting also when I was recording a song earlier this month, and someone who's crying all the time can't sing as well as normal. So it's just I keep messing career things up when I'm thinking so much about him... I get this 'brain fog'...

I know these details aren't really relevant, but they are examples of the way the last three years has been, now that I think of it. Yes, I do feel subconsciously that I need permission. I need to know from objective people more about what type of situation this is. It's not perfect, but it's not 'classically' abusive either, and I keep thinking that if I was a bigger person I could fix it.

Angela I always see you as a strong person, when giving advice.. it's hard to know that we're both perfect.. I keep seeing one or both of us as flawed...and that's why it isn't working. If we were perfect, would we be here on Earth, learning?

Star, I feel a similarity after what you've said. I wish I knew more, but I'll just trust that it sounds similar. It's like you want to feel you've tried everything you possibly can, because it's supposed to last forever, and giving up is like admitting you're not capable and loving enough to make it last forever.

[Silent Lucidity]

One more thought, You asked what my deepest intuition tells me... well it draws a blank. When I explore the future possibility of staying, I feel worry and confusion, and some hope. When I explore the possibility of leaving, the same thing happens, worry, confusion and some hope. Mostly though the whole thing is a blank.

I keep thinking that if I put him first, he'll come around, and put me first too...that's what he keeps saying. I always wonder why I'm not strong enough to just do that, and why I'm now afraid of even phoning... However, that wasn't my experience this fall, and more and more I think it will never be. So -why- am I creating this reality????

He keeps saying he says these things when he's really hurt and that he doesn't mean it but he just can't help it. I don't know what to think of that.

I know this is a lot of repeat information, I'll really try to think about the things you all have said... thank you

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Silent Lucidity

I keep seeing one or both of us as flawed...and that's why it isn't working. .....It's like you want to feel you've tried everything you possibly can, because it's supposed to last forever, and giving up is like admitting you're not capable and loving enough to make it last forever.

I know what you're talking about; I'm experiencing the same feeling myself -- where it's all up to me to make the relationship work, and if it doesn't, I'm a failure. It reminds me of the feeling I've got on an airplane: If I relax for even a minute, the plane will crash.

And the thing is: who says it's supposed to last forever? Who says I'm in charge of making it last forever? I'm beginning to get it through my thick skull that I'm not in charge. If I have it that I have to be capable and loving enough, I'm sentencing myself to never really being capable and loving enough. I am what I'm supposed to be. You know how I know that? Because I am what I am. I'm big into Popeye Philosophy.

I'm starting to really make it my own, that we can generate what's missing, and we can let go of what we don't need anymore, and there's no *enough* about it. *Enough* is going the dinosaur route for me, along with blame and shame. Whatever we generate and surrender, that's what we're supposed to be generating and surrendering. You can COUNT on relationships changing and ending. They change and end all the time.

And it doesn't mean anything about you or me. You and I are perfect, whole and complete, regardless of what anyone else does, thinks, or says. We Yar what we yar and that's all what we yar.

[carenkh]

I know I've been recommending Byron Katie a lot lately... I just think there are very few (if any) situations for which doing "The Work" won't help. I found a youtube video that I thought maybe you could relate to. The link for The Work will take you to her site, where you can fill out the form and do the four questions and turnaround on any thought you're having that's causing you stress or worry. (Things like 'he should....' )

It really sounds like you're each saying you don't want to be with the other! He wants to be with you *if you change* and you want to be with him *if he changes*. Can you live with what is? In this moment? He is who he is, and you are who you are, and you are *each* perfectly who you're supposed to be.

I was in a relationship (actually engaged!) with someone years ago, someone I met in a very magical way, and we had SO much in common it was freaky. But we were *miserable* together, just miserable. (Overall. Of course there were good parts, too) But I kept hanging on, thinking it was a wonderful opportunity for growth! LOLOLOL (loud, raucous laughter) Oh, my goodness. We would talk and talk, too. Process! We need to process! Um... nope. I'm so grateful I saw the light before we were married. I can grow *just as much* in joy and happiness as I can in misery. And it's a lot more fun, and life-affirming. Life's too short for ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

[Silent Lucidity]

carenkh, I think I see where you are going with this video. I have been the one to say 'I should be more understanding' for the last three years. I have been 'in the now' and that present, aware person. It has kept me in the relationship. At first I wanted him to 'understand' me... eventualy, after a couple of years, he did, about some things. We talk a lot. Then eventually I let that go and asked for him to just 'accept' the things he couldn't understand. Acceptance allows calm, and allows people to co-exsist in a harmonious way. I have always been the one to understand him, so I never had any complaint about him, and everything was good. However, perhaps my understanding was imperfect because there was a subtle but gradual loss of something...something vital, self-esteem? confidence? I don't know. Something because I was always understanding what he needed and what he was and becoming that, or trying to.

I then suddenly understood myself more and accepted him more and stopped trying so hard all the time, as the trying takes so much energy, when a lot of it went against my nature.

Example, I understand his need to be frugal with food, but I don't feel good when I don't eat enough fruits and veggies, but I understand his situation. (I'm 'slender' ha ha so this shouldn't be that much of an issue). I think; I will meditate and raise my vibration so that I am full of love and don't need fruits and veggies to sustain a high vibration... but I can do it for awhile, but when I go back home and we get fruits and salads all the time, I realize how much better I feel. Or I understand that he believes I only pursue the arts for social status I know it's okay if he doesn't understand that. So he treats me in a certain way according to that belief, because perhaps he's never had a creative experience, and he doesn't realize that I do it because I -must- it just comes out of me there's no choice. But it's sad, because I want him to at least think of me in a positive light, and not want to change me so much. It's sad because I see his face everywhere and a sense of sweetness, and I feel a love but well I don't know where to go from here. It seems to be leading in the direction of 'understanding' myself more.

This video bothers me because I could see anyone gaining awareness from this video and using it to stay in a hurtful situation, without even really knowing it. It's like how evolved is the soul and how much can you take in life, can you be 'in the now' while suffering in a concentration camp? Does that mean you are more evolved? Or does that mean that you haven't yet learned how to create your own reality? Since I don't really know the answer to that, I choose to pick whichever one of those feels intuitively better.

[carenkh]

Ugh. It sounds abusive to me (someone from the outside, not in the situation). I think it's harmful that you don't allow yourself the FOOD you need to feel healthy. It's FOOD. It's something necessary to life. I don't believe many people are at a point where they can (or should) transcend their humanity. Why do you want to? You are a vital, loving, alive human, with a body and with needs. Why are you denying that?

Oh, sweetie. I was in another relationship where I just made excuses and made excuses for this man's hurtful behavior. 'He's very busy. He's working on his doctorate. We live far apart. He was adopted, so he has attachment issues.' I was sure my pure unconditional love would heal him. My God, I was *sick*. Because he was *hurting me*, and I just took it. I still don't know why, it was the only relationship in my whole life where I put up with that kind of BS.

His unacceptance of your creative need sounds abusive, too! It is a need you have, and he's trying to diminish that. It doesn't matter if you understand WHY he's doing that - he's doing that. Why would you put up with it?

There's another thread about The Work, and whether it leads to staying in bad situations.

[Lola]

Originally Posted by carenkh

Life's too short for ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

I think life's too LONG for ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥!



And SL - Besides the fact that I agree with carenkh that he sounds at worst like an abuser and at best like a controller, I'd like to suggest you ask yourself this question:

Is there anyone actively participating in this relationship other than me?

No need to answer here. Just something you may want to give some consideration to.

[Silent Lucidity]

Thanks so much... I think I really need to hear this right now. I tried to portray it honestly and also in a generally good way, when writing that post. So it's valuable that so many people see it this way. I always think I'm so darn smart, creative, evolved and so perceptive, and in reality I must know nothing, or why would I be in this?

I know that in the last month or so I've withdrawn. I know he's upset and has a right to be. When he's upset, he drags out the same flaws of me over and over. When he's feeling bad that he yelled for hours, than he says that he just said those things because he was feeling so hurt, and the other 'problems' I have are self-solving once we're together.

He believes that I'm emotionally exactly like him, so I will have these same problems in other relationships, and since we're so alike, we can work it out. He believes that I am the person he loves most out of everyone he's ever been with, physically, mentally, spiritually. I actually like to talk about interesting things, and can't we just try? At the same time he truly believes I have all these problems. Maybe I do, I don't know anymore. The pattern continues to happen, there was another major incident last night. I'm getting really good at being very calm for most of it, and I only broke down and started crying and defending myself after the first two hours. After the whole thing I tried to end it, and couldn't do it, as he felt so bad and talked of all the reasons we are good for each other, that I just mentioned. Maybe he really does feel bad and wants to stop the pattern like he says? I am close to wanting out but I just need to have courage, mostly courage I'll find someone that I'll love in this same, deep-essence way. Thanks you guys for your honest thoughts and advice...

[The Cloud]

If you truly love him, then even he can't take that away from you. You'll always have that love for the person underneath all the neurosis. He isn't yours, can never be yours, but that love is.

[Silent Lucidity]

I don't know why that post made me laugh (gently) for I have love for others in the same way, that nothing can ever change or damage. Sometimes it makes me weak and sad, but mostly it makes me strong. I know too, that the love i feel for others is a reflection of my love for myself, since we are all one, it's all the same thing.

We had agreed to try, that night and yesterday morning I received an email that was a break-up email. It again, listed all the things I had done (like not phone him enough, gee. Can't he phone me too?) or delay a visit, etc and how he was more hurt than he'd ever been but he didn't like the person he has become, and essentially saying it was over. Now he just keeps saying I don't care. He can't remember that he's been accusing me of certain things since December (maybe since the beginning too?), and I eventually started withdrawing to protect myself. I always came back, but each time it got meaner, it took me longer to return.

So I feel like we've broken up now, with all the hurt, shock, confusion, dizzyness, and emptiness and sorrow that goes with it. I don't know whether to fight for it because I know I could get him back instantly if I promised to put him first above everything, was always the one to call, and promised a visit and the visa. But he won't do his part to reach out, or beleive in me. So now I feel utterly lost.

I'll curl up with a good book, go for a walk...escape, as I'm so good at mental escapism.

[The Cloud]

Hmmm, escapism has its uses, but it also has its drawbacks. On the one hand, it gives you time to cool down and be able to think more rationally. On the other hand, it prevents you from dealing with the pain when it's raw and fresh, which is the optimal time for figuring out where the pain is really coming from.

Originally Posted by Silent Lucidity

I don't know whether to fight for it because I know I could get him back instantly if I promised to put him first above everything, was always the one to call, and promised a visit and the visa.

That reminds me of Gail Wynand from "The Fountainhead" by Ayn Rand.

"You were a ruler of men. You held a leash. A leash is only a rope with a noose at both ends."

You could have him that way, but only at the expense of yourself. You could be his ruler, you could hold the leash, but only by giving in and giving up everything that makes that leash worth holding. What good does it do you to have him if you give up the person doing the having in exchange?

The noose is at both ends of the rope, though. Not only would you be hanging yourself, but you'd be choking him at the same time. By giving in to his irrational needs, you would be justifying those needs to him. People only learn through conflict between their beliefs and reality. By giving in to him, you would be lessening that conflict, creating a false reality where his beliefs are functional. But they aren't functional, not really, and he will have to learn that. You would be stifling his opportunity to learn and be truly happy.

So hurt when you have to, don't deny it, don't fight it. But most of all, don't ignore it. The pain is there to teach you, to show you your beliefs, your fallacies, you ignorance and your dysfunction. To deny it is to deny yourself. Instead, learn and grow.

[uberinquisitive]

Originally Posted by Silent Lucidity

I don't know whether to fight for it because I know I could get him back instantly if I promised to put him first above everything, was always the one to call, and promised a visit and the visa. But he won't do his part to reach out, or beleive in me. So now I feel utterly lost.

Why do you want to get back together with him? From what you described, you guys only have 40% of the 3 categories (practical, sexual, and chemistry), which more or less means that you have 0/3.

I'm sure he's a decent person, but not compatible enough for you. It's like you have a size 7 shoe, and he's a size 5. Why keep the size 5 and limp around? Being barefoot is preferable to the blisters and pain of the totally wrong size.

[Silent Lucidity]

well it looks like I miss-read his email after all. He said that 'I am not offering a relationship, and he has to accept it'. This is because I made a MySpace page to promote my art, and I want my profile visible, so people can see what books/ideas influence the work. So I had put 'single' as my statues. I'd prefer to put no answer, but you can't. I did that late at night several days ago, in a space-cadet moment. I guess it was my subconscious ha ha but, I don't want to meet guys on-line, ever again, so to me it doesn't make any difference what I put. So he found it and went nuts, accused me of lying and cheating, and that's how the three hours of yelling happened. The only way he can meet girls is on-line.

So now he says I wasn't dumped. But that email was called 'final farewell'. It was so full of accusations about how I lied and cheated, that I truly did think I was dumped. It was full of how he'll always remember the good times, and will always love me but it hurts him too much to stay when I've lied and cheated, and he doesn't like who he's become. It's unbelievable. I know I'm just a name on-line here, but I'd challenge anyone to ask anyone who knows me well in 'real life' what I am like, if I have done that, and if I would. I have character and integrity, in that regard. I think I'm loosing my mind. I will try to pull it together, and I really thank you guys for your advice, kind and (usefully) challenging words.

[Silent Lucidity]

That reminds me of Gail Wynand from "The Fountainhead" by Ayn Rand.

"You were a ruler of men. You held a leash. A leash is only a rope with a noose at both ends."

"You could have him that way, but only at the expense of yourself. You could be his ruler, you could hold the leash, but only by giving in and giving up everything that makes that leash worth holding. What good does it do you to have him if you give up the person doing the having in exchange?"

I don't want to rule anyone, or anyone to 'rule' me. I want two people who wish to be together on equal grounds, or some sort of healthy give and take.

"By giving in to him, you would be lessening that conflict, creating a false reality where his beliefs are functional. But they aren't functional, not really, and he will have to learn that. You would be stifling his opportunity to learn and be truly happy."

Can't we learn while in relationships too? I guess not in this way, in this case.

I haven't though of it that way, this is really good stuff. Thing is, he has had many relationships before me, and a marriage. I know the woman left in most of them. I know he has learned some... but is it enough? Perhaps not. I know he has had a marriage that included an 'open' relationship concept, and this is perhaps why he has been accusing me of lying and cheating.

Even when I joke about escapism, I am still 'in the now' feeling my emotions, pain, etc, most of the time I'm always in touch with my feelings. It's just that these days I feel so drained by all the fighting that there isn't much energy left to feel anything other than exhaustion and emptiness.

I don't want to open myself up to further hurt, but I am still curious, what is dysfunctional that you see in me? I will feel free to disagree lol by the way.

[Holistic Star]

Silent Lucidity,

Let me be blunt. Nothing you do will ever be good enough for this man. Not because you are disfunctional, flawed or wrong - but because of his insecurity.

I know it is painful to lose someone when you have invested so much time in the relationship, especially as he has made you believe that you are responsible for his hurt and feelings. However that pain will pass in time.

If you choose to stay with him, then of course you can. You know what you have to do - say you will put the relationship first above all things. Don't do anything that displeases him, tiptoe round on eggshells making sure that you don't upset him, give up your art because he feels jealous of your love of it (!)
Be assured that even if you do this, you will still have those 3 hour raging phone calls when something else triggers his anxiety and he lists all your faults (real or imaginary) leaving your confidence on the floor.

If that is what you think you want from the next few years of your life then go right ahead. If, on the other hand you think - hey that's not what I want for myself, then see his email as a blessing - you are now free.


(PS - having extracted myself from a similar situation, it took several months to be finally free once I had made the decision. There was a lot of pressure on me from my ex and his family to stay. Eventually the phonecalls got less frequent and intense and eventually stopped. I viewed the whole thing as the final gasps of a hooked fish - very unpleasant but it can be done).

[The Cloud]

Originally Posted by Silent Lucidity

I don't want to open myself up to further hurt, but I am still curious, what is dysfunctional that you see in me? I will feel free to disagree lol by the way.

Haha, I didn't mean anything specific. It's just that we have painful emotions as indicators of dysfunctional beliefs. The very fact that you are feeling pain is an indicator that there is some internal contradiction for you to deal with. That's all I meant.

[Silent Lucidity]

yeah, it's all true... thanks guys (again

The dysfunctional belief is that I won't find the depth of connection with anyone else. We were meant to be together but we can't because I keep messing it up, flaking out, etc. That I have a wonderful man who really wants to get married and what's wrong with me since I am so afraid of commitment?

So, I let him convince me to 'try' last night, and ended up chatting for hours on the chat, and then I was really tired wanted to go to bed, but he was still snarly that I didn't phone him. It never occurred to him to just call me. I kept getting the impression that my main purpose there was to entertain him and alleviate his boredom. He wasn't trying or interested in my beliefs or thoughts. it was all about him, nothing about 'was I okay or in pain or anything'. He said he'd been waiting for me to talk to him. I don't remember a time when I was waiting for a man to call based on intellectual entertainment. Maybe I wanted the emotional/mental/spiritual connection, but I don't ever remember a time when I was bored The connection was for the purpose of a sense of being together, not to 'entertain' me. I do think it's great when a couple can teach and help each other, and -both- contribute to the mental 'life' of the partnership, but that's entirely different.

As for where the pain is coming from, I'll look at that. Thanks again.

[Silent Lucidity]

one more thing, the pain-of-leaving is coming from the idea that here is someone that wants to experience love, be devoted, have a life together, and in letting go, staying aloof when they hurt me, that means I am incapable of love, or unlearned how to love. I fear being a distant person, the 'eccentric scientist' type even though I'm not ha ha. I don't feel like that (feminine) at all. I'm more interested in knowledge, and the mysteries of the universe, rather than love, which is the greatest lesson of all.

[Joely]

Originally Posted by Silent Lucidity

yeah, it's all true... thanks guys (again

The dysfunctional belief is that I won't find the depth of connection with anyone else. We were meant to be together but we can't because I keep messing it up, flaking out, etc. That I have a wonderful man who really wants to get married and what's wrong with me since I am so afraid of commitment?

So, I let him convince me to 'try' last night, and ended up chatting for hours on the chat, and then I was really tired wanted to go to bed, but he was still snarly that I didn't phone him. It never occurred to him to just call me. I kept getting the impression that my main purpose there was to entertain him and alleviate his boredom. He wasn't trying or interested in my beliefs or thoughts. it was all about him, nothing about 'was I okay or in pain or anything'. He said he'd been waiting for me to talk to him. I don't remember a time when I was waiting for a man to call based on intellectual entertainment. Maybe I wanted the emotional/mental/spiritual connection, but I don't ever remember a time when I was bored The connection was for the purpose of a sense of being together, not to 'entertain' me. I do think it's great when a couple can teach and help each other, and -both- contribute to the mental 'life' of the partnership, but that's entirely different.

As for where the pain is coming from, I'll look at that. Thanks again.

I have been following this thread but haven't responded. I've been there, and the word that keeps coming back to me is "abuse". He's done an excellent job: he's convinced you that everything that's wrong with the relationship, his life and everything else he can think of is your fault.

You sound like you desperately want to experience love with somebody, but this isn't love. This is a million miles from love. Somebody who really loved you, who really connected with you, would never treat you this way. But he's managed to convince you - he's got to the most insecure, frightened part of you - and convinced you that you're all wrong and you need to do work. He doesn't really think you need to do all this work, he just works on the premise, deep down inside (it's probably subconscious), that in order to keep you (because you're a fantastic, outgoing, intelligent woman) he has to wear you down and gradually convince you that you're so wrong, so faulty inside that you should be grateful to him for the way he treats you.

And I already know how you'll respond because I've done this and I've heard it a thousand times. "Oh but he's really great... He's not usually like this... I know I do have to change... I know I am at fault..."

That makes me feel really sad. It makes me feel so sad that somebody so talented, so beautiful and so committed to living a great life (having read your other thread), and so warm and open to supporting others, has been made to feel this way about herself. There is somebody out there for you who doesn't do this to you. Somebody who doesn't tell you all the things that are wrong with you. Somebody who loves you, is mature and excited by all the amazing things about you. You think you had an amazing connection here, but really, you didn't.

You'll find it, one day, and I'm relieved that you're breaking up. It is hard and it takes time, but you'll recover, and you can use this as an opportunity to realise how much more you're worth.

Love,

J x

[Silent Lucidity]

Joley, Your post is beautiful, thank you so much. I enjoy your posts also, and I think you are a wonderful person. We did break up, but we are not acting like it. We still talk on aol, and phone sometimes. The yelling and abuse has stopped. He still says little comments about my living with my parents. In his opinion, moving back home is what destroyed things with us, as well as my neglect. He says 'just tell me what you want me to do', and restates how I am the only one for him, but now that we are apart, he is not in a relationship phase in his life anymore. Now that it hasn't worked with someone so exactly similar to him, personality-wise, he has no hope of finding anyone else in this life. The drama from the last few months is starting to fade, and I'm starting to miss him terribly and all the good times. Sometimes he says he's always here for me, and other times he begs me not to contact him anymore, so he can start to get over me. It's very hard for both of us, and it makes me think, why am I doing this? Sometimes we have moments of such depth on the phone. I wonder what in fact I am throwing away. I am on eharmony, and another dating site... just looking around. He just keeps saying he's made a lot of mistakes and the whole situation means he wasn't successful at showing me who he really is inside.

The problem now is this; if I mention to my parents (in passing) something that he said, they get extremely angry. I did have to leave him because they wouldn't allow him in their house. It is crushing me. I love them so much, yet I can't even express my emotions normally without being misunderstood, or ignored. My father will yell, or my mother will just walk out of the room. Says she's busy. All the time. They were never like this before, but started wine-making ten years ago, drink all of it and they're just getting old. I miss living alone. The one saving-grace is that my enlightened, growth oriented, brother lives here too. We make a point to listen to each other without judgement, and defend each other. We have always been friends. We are in the identical situation, the difference is I have lived alone for seven years, and he never has.

It is proving that the things my boyfriend said could be true, and that the parents are as controlling as he is/was. He says they will not let me date someone unless they really like them and it is in effect arranging a marriage. They don't have many friends of their own, again, they left them in Calgary when they moved to retire, they prefer their books, gardens, wine making, spiritual ideas and each other's company. This is fine. I know they would be happy if I stayed with them forever. We live just outside of town, on a mountainside. We can see the lake. It's soft and misty, very european. We can see the sunset every night, there are pine trees everywhere. It's the most beautiful place in the world, I think. Yet is is my prison.

Due to my occupation (artist/musician/teacher/illustrator), not finding work in the field, I can't live on my own here in town. There is no public transit here. I would still be dependent on them for rides, so I might as well stay at their house. If I move back to Calgary, I will lose the art-galleries here, be stuck in a nowhere job, public transit, as I don't pass the eye-driving test in alberta, but I would have my freedom and friends back. I am stressed by my parents and brother's late-night lifestyle which affects my health, and my lack of freedom and friendship.

This town has a lot of very lovely people, mostly senior citizens, the ones that take my art courses. I don't know where all the young professionals are. I am too late starting for my age, most of them have families now. I don't want one just yet. Just want freedom first. I have a little electric scooter, that goes 30 kmph, but I have to wear the bright safety vest, it is very bright. It's a small town, so I fear everyone knows who I am. 'Oh that's the artist that lives at her parents house...yeah they drive her everywhere... no I don't think she works...teaches a little...yes it's really sad'. Guys won't date someone in my situation, I think, no matter beautiful they are, on any level. They want someone strong, independent and established. At least the good ones do. I don't for sure yet if this is true, but this is what I think.

This is a hopeless situation, and all I see is a paradox everywhere I go... and then there is my ex-partner who just wants to get married and that would solve everything.... Do I start a new thread? How is this done?