should I ask her again or give up?

[introspective1]

Well, I thought I had decided to try dating/relationships again, after I swore that it is overrated and was not for me. I have had STRONG feelings for a woman I work with for about 3 and a half months now. When a co-worker found out I like her (they are friends), she tried to find out if this woman was single and if she may be interested. Well, she said that she was flattered that I liked her and that it made her day to hear that news. Then, the next day she said that she hasnt dated in a while and was "set in her ways". My co-worker friend told me all of this and said that it doesn't necessarily mean that she wont date me. I was also told I should just keep striking up conversations with her and see where it goes.

Fast forward to just a couple of weeks ago...After trying, at every opportunity I got for the past few months, to talk to this woman, I finally got up enough nerve to ask her out. Even though, in past conversations, I tried to get the conversation going, only to have her not talk back to me and ask questions about me, I decided to ask her out.

So one day, I asked her what she was doin for the weekend. She said she was babysitting her brother's kids. Then I tried to ask more about her family, like how many siblings she had and how many kids each had. Then I said, "well, we should get together sometime when you are not babysitting." Then she said, hesitantly, "um....yeah". Then i asked if she was busy during the week next week and she replied, "well.....I work." I laughed cause I figured she was being sarcastic. Then I said, "what about after work next week? got any plans?" She said, "I definitely can't do anything in the evenings after work since I have to be here so early." She also said she had plans for the next weekend too. Then I asked if it would be ok if I gave her a call sometime (figuring we could discuss things more in private and set something up...I figured someone was going to walk in the room any second now..). She replied, "um....I dont know". Then someone walked up and started talking to her so then I used that as a cue to exit. I was so hurt by all this..I really thought I had a shot with this woman since my co-worker had encouraged me to talk to her after this woman found out I liked her.

Ever since this happened a couple weeks ago, I have seen her a few times and normally we just say hey and thats it. Today, I tried to strike up a conversation. She replied to my questions but didnt ask me any..as usual.

Is it possible she is just to shy since she hasnt dated in a while or had many guys hit on her? Should I try to ask her out again? do you think she was trying to turn me down without coming straight out and saying no? Is there anyway to get her interested in me? I have gotten mixed answers from other people. Some say I should try again others say it may mean she is not interested and I should move on. I just wanna make sure I am not overanalyzing the situation and being negative about it.
Sorry to sound like this. I haven't felt strongly about anyone in three years and now that I do, I feel like she is rejecting me. It hurts but I am not sure what to do about the situation.

[oberlee]

Hmmm...

Ordinarily, I'd say she's not into you, move on. However, she didn't SAY that. I mean, she gave pretty weak excuses.

You know, it wouldn't hurt to ask again. I know, I know, it sounds like she didn't want to go out with you, but you know maybe if you were just honest. What about that? Tell her you really like her and would love to get to know her outside the office, but don't try to be cocky or anything, and if she's a decent human being she'll either accept or reject you, but either way she should respect you. Try to get a drink after work, or a cup of coffee or something.

If you can't get the courage up to do that, then just try to get to know her. You could also just ignore her and date someone ELSE in the office...oooo, that would make her jealous.

[jaamkie]

I have to say, reading all of that, it sounds like a nice/shy woman trying to say "no thanks" without being presumptuous/rude about it- probably more-or-less what I would say in the same circumstances if I didn't have any interest in dating the guy but didn't dislike him enough to be more blunt. Sorry... because I know it just sucks to hear no when you wanted yes- but the whole big build-up and involving other people probably wasn't in your favor here. If you back off and just be a friend I think you'd both be happier, and I'm sure she knows that you're interested and if she changes her mind she'll find a way to let you know.

But why the negative attitude toward relationships? I mean to normally have such a negative opinion and avoid dating only blows the occasional beginning out of proportion and then you'll probably act weird and get overly-invested in it too quickly and get more hurt from occasional forays into dating. If you're annoyed with relationships as you've had them in the past well maybe try redefining "dating" and "relationship" in a way that would make you happy and then live like that is the sort of relationship you will have...

[The Cloud]

I don't presume to understand the situation, but this exactly corresponds to some "dating" experiences that I used to have. That is, used to not have. She likely isn't interested and doesn't want to confront you, so she's just going to leave you hanging until you force the issue or give up.

As to why, again I am only speculating. But if this is anything similar to my situation, you have become overly attached to her. Do not confuse this attachment for love as it is more along the lines of an obsession, a connection of your self worth to her evaluation of you. She can see this expectation you have of her and isn't willing to commit to it.

If you want to find out if there is anything there, you are going to have to do something very difficult. You are going to have to stop having intentions toward her, rather than trying to define your relationship in this way or that. Once you can stop looking at your relationship in discrete terms of "friend" and "girlfriend," you will be fit to ask her out on a friendly outing, simply to have fun. No other reason, not to evaluate whether you should have a deeper relationship, not to impress her, not any reason but for you to enjoy yourself. *As long as you need or want something from her other than what she is, she is going to be unwilling to give you what you want.* Simply accept the relationship as it is, whether it is what you would define as "friend" or "good friend" or "girlfriend" or something else. These are only definitions that we put to our connections with other people, when in actuality every connection with every person is different and nameless.

I can tell you from experience, this method is far superior to the dating with purpose method in that it results in minimal psychological distress and a lot more pure enjoyment.

[introspective1]

Originally Posted by jaamkie

I have to say, reading all of that, it sounds like a nice/shy woman trying to say "no thanks" without being presumptuous/rude about it- probably more-or-less what I would say in the same circumstances if I didn't have any interest in dating the guy but didn't dislike him enough to be more blunt. Sorry... because I know it just sucks to hear no when you wanted yes- but the whole big build-up and involving other people probably wasn't in your favor here. If you back off and just be a friend I think you'd both be happier, and I'm sure she knows that you're interested and if she changes her mind she'll find a way to let you know.

But why the negative attitude toward relationships? I mean to normally have such a negative opinion and avoid dating only blows the occasional beginning out of proportion and then you'll probably act weird and get overly-invested in it too quickly and get more hurt from occasional forays into dating. If you're annoyed with relationships as you've had them in the past well maybe try redefining "dating" and "relationship" in a way that would make you happy and then live like that is the sort of relationship you will have...

Well, my negative attitude just comes from seeing so many friends get into bad relationships and from my last relationship, in which I was very miserable. I have and have seen so many people get abused/taken for granted by their partners and it seems like the only stage of the relationship I enjoy is the "honeymoon" part LOL, but I guess thats something I need to work on...cause anything after that scares me. Who knows what kinda person I coud really end up with? I guess I just need to change my mindset, but its hard cause I am used to having friends/relationships where I have been mistreated.

And what do you mean, that I should "back off and just be a friend"...thats how I am trying to start things out, by asking her to do something with me or trying to get her number. How am I supposed to friend her if we cant meet outside of work and develop some closeness?

[introspective1]

Originally Posted by jaamkie

but the whole big build-up and involving other people probably wasn't in your favor here.

also, what do you mean by this? how do you think this hurt my chances?

[jaamkie]

oops maybe I don't mean "friend" in the same way- I mean just be friendly and nonchalant and let it go, let her come to you if she wants more, you can't force it to be more than it is.

Well not that they changed your chances of dating her, more that they were probably making the situation more difficult than it had to be when you didn't get the answer you were hoping for.

I don't think it helps to involve other people because each person has their own radically different view of the world so getting someone else's opinion of the woman's feelings probably only confuses things, makes you misinterpret and have false hopes or give up too easily; plus it might be awkward for her if the other person is playing go-between or bothering her about it etc.

Letting your attraction build for months before making a clear attempt is probably not a good thing, well unless you enjoy the fantasy more than the probable hurt if it doesn't work out, just because there is sadly nothing in the world that says feelings will be reciprocated. They so often aren't and it is better to know quickly without a big emotional investment in it.


As far as being mistreated, I'm still trying to figure that out myself- how some relationships end up feeling so respectful/positive and others just don't. I have a horrible habit of starting out nice/respectful as I would be to anyone, but then over the course of conversations as I get to know him better I lose respect for the guy, start to be a bit pushy/demanding, realize I don't like my own behavior, fight myself to be nicer, then lose all attraction as I try to convince myself to respect him but can't, and end up giving an honest "it's not you it's me" speech. I have dated 2 guys that I've really respected/admired, two of my longest relationships- only ones making it past the honeymoon stage.

[sheffy4]

Sorry, she's not interested.

[uberinquisitive]

that's similar to how I'd turn down a guy who I wanted to keep as a friend.

Edited to add: if the friend really pursued me, and tried to sweep me off my feet and was charming about not taking "no" for an answer - I may warm up to the idea. This happened to me once - I dated the guy for 5 years and we're still friends.

[The Cloud]

Why do you need to develop closeness? There is absolutely nothing you can do to develop real closeness. It will just happen by itself. Every attempt you make to be closer to her and to be a more important part of her life simply interferes with the natural development of your relationship, whatever it would be.

If you two are compatible, as long as you don't interfere with the process you will naturally grow closer. Conversely, if you aren't that compatible, you will naturally grow apart, which is ok because you aren't very compatible. But every time you try to artificially impose your ideas of what should be on what is, you just end up futzing up the whole thing.

She was non-committal because you seemed too desperate to say yes to, but too desperate to refuse. Once you cease to need your relationship with her to be something that it currently isn't, you won't be desperate and you can get a real answer. Once you stop needing her, you can ask her to do anything you want to do with her because it won't matter whether or not she says yes or no, which means that she will feel much less pressure to shelter your emotions and will be much more likely to speak her mind.

[Jennihul]

Blow her off, duder.

Jennifer

[introspective1]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

She was non-committal because you seemed too desperate to say yes to, but too desperate to refuse. Once you cease to need your relationship with her to be something that it currently isn't, you won't be desperate and you can get a real answer. Once you stop needing her, you can ask her to do anything you want to do with her because it won't matter whether or not she says yes or no, which means that she will feel much less pressure to shelter your emotions and will be much more likely to speak her mind.

Ok,this makes sense, but how did I come across as desparate? I never thought about that...

I mean, I do think about her ALOT and what it would be like to be with her, but she doesnt know exactly how I feel about her.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by introspective1

... but she doesnt know exactly how I feel about her.

Maybe not exactly, but you can count on it that she knows what you were interested in. It was coming off you in waves.

When I read what you said to her, it made me feel hinky and uncomfortable, and if it were me, I would feel sort of trapped by how you were expressing yourself and what you were asking. Thinking about why that is: you were "trying to make conversation with her" in order to get what you want (a date, a romance, whatever). In other words, the conversation did not feel alive and dancing; it felt like she would be on the defensive, because she felt like you were trying to *get* something. Because you were!

It seems to me you would be wise to practice being really present in conversation with women, and let go of your *in order to's* long enough for you to each get a sense of who the other is. Getting to know each other is kind of an *in order to*, too, but in that case it is really bringing yourself to the conversation in a fun way -- it is generating the opportunity for connection. That would feel good to do that, wouldn't it?

I don't think you should try to get someone to go out with you before you've generated a connection -- before you've established a first dancing conversation in which both of you are joyful willing volunteers.

Otherwise, you'll always be like Pepe Le Pew.

[Jamie]

Have to agree with what Angela is saying, and also I think, The Cloud, makes very good points about not forcing the issue (I guess they're really saying the same thing here). I have this issue, to a degree, when I'm talking to women, and only now am I getting past this, and allowing myself to just be in the moment, without an agenda (aims / objective etc) as such. It's a wonderful thing to allow yourself that space, that freedom, feels like a weight lifted off your shoulders, just being natural and in the moment.

Jamie.

[introspective1]

I wish I could find some closure to this situation. Whenever I still see this woman, it drives me crazy. I guess I keep personalizing her rejection and it hurts even more. I wish that I could get over her. Its been a few weeks since I posted this thread and I try to just ignore how I feel about her. I have never felt this way about anyone before, especially after only knowing them a short while. How do you get over someone who has rejected you, especially if you work in the same place as them? I have others interested in me but I just dont have much of an interest in them b/c I am so consumed with this one person. I wish it was not this way....

[Angela]

Introspective, what do you think about approaching her with a new way of being, one in which you're not trying to *get* something from her?

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by introspective1

....... I am so consumed with this one person. I wish it was not this way....

Hi introspective1,

Part of your being consumed with this person stems from your 'rejection' or perceived rejection rather than any real connection. This is not only irrational, but a very poor foundation for any friendship or relationship to begin.

As Angela suggests, perhaps you should next approach her in a way in "which you're not trying to *get* something from her". This will further your cause more than any forced or self-serving approach. Make it friendly, helpful and non-threatening without expecting anything in return. If she doesn't warm up to you after a few such conversations, you will have to move on.

[The Cloud]

Do you enjoy feeling the way you do? No? Then become a person that doesn't have to feel this way. It took me a few lessons in rejection before I learned that I could no longer stand being a person that could hurt himself like that. I hated who I was, I hated what I was feeling, and I hated the way that I (emotionally) hurt the object of my affection because of that. There had to be a better way, and I had to find it if I didn't want the same old thing to happen again.

Moral of the story? You'll always feel this way, again and again and again, until you reach a threshold of tolerance and can't take it anymore. Maybe you'll finally land a girl, but it won't be any different, eventually it will spiral out of control again and you'll end up feeling the exact same way. Until you stop needing others to validate your own worth to you, this is the way it's going to be. Cause and effect. Believe this, feel that. If you don't want to feel this way, find another way to believe.

[introspective1]

Originally Posted by Angela

Introspective, what do you think about approaching her with a new way of being, one in which you're not trying to *get* something from her?

I understand what you and Z are saying. I will try this approach and see what happens. Lately, I have been trying to act less interested in her thinking that maybe she would come around. Yesterday, she sat across from me in the break room (several other people were around) and I didnt say anything to her. Earlier that day, she did greet me when I first came to work but she didn't seem overly happy about it. Maybe she was not in a good mood or something. She does not express alot of emotion so I couldn't tell.

[introspective1]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

Do you enjoy feeling the way you do? No? Then become a person that doesn't have to feel this way. It took me a few lessons in rejection before I learned that I could no longer stand being a person that could hurt himself like that. I hated who I was, I hated what I was feeling, and I hated the way that I (emotionally) hurt the object of my affection because of that. There had to be a better way, and I had to find it if I didn't want the same old thing to happen again.

Moral of the story? You'll always feel this way, again and again and again, until you reach a threshold of tolerance and can't take it anymore. Maybe you'll finally land a girl, but it won't be any different, eventually it will spiral out of control again and you'll end up feeling the exact same way. Until you stop needing others to validate your own worth to you, this is the way it's going to be. Cause and effect. Believe this, feel that. If you don't want to feel this way, find another way to believe.

Thanks, Cloud. I am working on not feeling this way, the best I can. I wish it could just happen overnight

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by introspective1

I Lately, I have been trying to act less interested in her thinking that maybe she would come around.

Introspective, I think this is good approach. Give her some time and space and pretty soon she'll start to wonder about what's up with you. Let her be the one to approach you and if she never does, you'll know that there are no possibilities here. Be friendly and approachable to everyone you come in contact with, including her, without going out of your way to be around her.

[The Cloud]

Originally Posted by ZHereford

Give her some time and space and pretty soon she'll start to wonder about what's up with you.

Be very wary of this. If you let yourself fall into her again, you'll just end up pushing her away the way you already have. It's funny, everything you say sounds EXACTLY like what I had to go through before I'd had enough. The need for closure, the desire for an overnight or instant of revelation on how to change, the obsessive thinking, the knowing that you don't want to feel this way but simultaneously wanting to feel the pain so badly that you can't let go.

The only thing I can say is that when you want to change, you'll be able to. Right now, you want the pain, it's the only connection you have with her and you can't let go of it. If you can't have her love, at least you can hurt for her. My experience was that one day, after months of enduring what you are living with now, it just broke and left me with nothing. The pain had been there so long that I didn't know what to do without it. I felt empty and emotionless, she had been all the meaning in the world to me and now that she was truly gone I had nothing. Slowly, ever so slowly, I set out to find a way of preventing this from happening again. Finding something to make everything worth it without her, without any girl, because I never wanted that to happen again. So, I looked at new things, I did new things, I had no idea what I was doing and no way of knowing what direction I needed to go, I just haphazardly gathered everything I could find on ways to be happy. And one day, in one instant, my life changed. The quote in my signature appeared in my head, and I realized that I needed nobody else for my life to be meaningful, that nothing could create my happiness but myself, and that once I had conquered all the fear and doubt of myself I would be unable to avoid being happy. I would conquer my world.

I'm not saying that this is how it will happen for you. Epiphanies don't happen often, and they don't seem to happen to many people at all. All I know is that in order to look for an answer, you have to want to find it first, and then you have to look for it. So just keep on chugging, because you never know when it will all make sense.

[introspective1]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

Be very wary of this. If you let yourself fall into her again, you'll just end up pushing her away the way you already have. It's funny, everything you say sounds EXACTLY like what I had to go through before I'd had enough. The need for closure, the desire for an overnight or instant of revelation on how to change, the obsessive thinking, the knowing that you don't want to feel this way but simultaneously wanting to feel the pain so badly that you can't let go.

The only thing I can say is that when you want to change, you'll be able to. Right now, you want the pain, it's the only connection you have with her and you can't let go of it. If you can't have her love, at least you can hurt for her. My experience was that one day, after months of enduring what you are living with now, it just broke and left me with nothing. The pain had been there so long that I didn't know what to do without it. I felt empty and emotionless, she had been all the meaning in the world to me and now that she was truly gone I had nothing. Slowly, ever so slowly, I set out to find a way of preventing this from happening again. Finding something to make everything worth it without her, without any girl, because I never wanted that to happen again. So, I looked at new things, I did new things, I had no idea what I was doing and no way of knowing what direction I needed to go, I just haphazardly gathered everything I could find on ways to be happy. And one day, in one instant, my life changed. The quote in my signature appeared in my head, and I realized that I needed nobody else for my life to be meaningful, that nothing could create my happiness but myself, and that once I had conquered all the fear and doubt of myself I would be unable to avoid being happy. I would conquer my world.

I'm not saying that this is how it will happen for you. Epiphanies don't happen often, and they don't seem to happen to many people at all. All I know is that in order to look for an answer, you have to want to find it first, and then you have to look for it. So just keep on chugging, because you never know when it will all make sense.

I kinda understand what you are saying, but I dont understand why someone would want to feel pain. Maybe I am just addicted to being unhappy or something. I dont know...on a conscious level I dont notice that I am that way. I DO know that I have a problem with depending on others to raise my SELF esteem and make me feel good, which is something that I am working on. I am really struggling. I guess if I felt I could get this woman then I could be with someone I REALLY have strong feelings for, which has not EVER happened to me. I think thats why I wrote in my earlier post about swearing off relationships (among other reasons...I seen too many people get burned or "stuck", too many cheaters, etc...)

[jaamkie]

I think what you should do is find someplace alone and just keep repeating "you will never have a relationship with this woman" until you actually believe it. As long as you keep holding these hopes/fantasies you're still just strategizing about how to trap her into a relationship, and even if you're successful it will suck. I think to get to the heart of it you have to believe this will never work out and then deal with the sucky emotions that come from believing that.

[The Cloud]

Wanting to feel pain may not be rational, but it's the only reason we feel it. We connect our selves, who we are, to something, giving that thing the power to hurt us. It doesn't matter whether it's a person, a family heirloom, or a 42" TV, it's a connection to ourselves. When that thing that we attach our selves to is then taken away (or rejects us, as in your case) it causes us pain because we feel a part of ourselves is being lost. But we won't let go of it, because we were connected to it and we made it a part of ourselves. No matter how much it hurts, we often hold on desperately hoping that the dead relative or stolen heirloom or rejecting lover will come back, become a part of our lives again the way we want them to be.

That is how one can want to feel pain. You don't feel pain because you have to. It's not an inescapable fact of life. A part of you wants it, and so you have it.

[garentee]

This woman is clearly emotionally unavailable. It can be a real pain in the arse to deal with one who is unavailable... She really is not present enough to tell you yes or no... Shes not available to her self either.
I have a long pattern of dating or rather trying to date women who are unavailable... finally recently I had to figgure out what the common thread was and it was me. I am in the process of being more available myself.
I suggest letting this be and taking a good hard look at your self and your patterns and your reactions to this and many other women and see what the common thread is. Dont be afraid to feel the pain..However if you hold onto the pain it does become damaging. Feel the fear and do it anyways is a great book that can help you out in many ways... ok really rambling now .

[introspective1]

Originally Posted by garentee

This woman is clearly emotionally unavailable. It can be a real pain in the arse to deal with one who is unavailable... She really is not present enough to tell you yes or no... Shes not available to her self either.
I have a long pattern of dating or rather trying to date women who are unavailable... finally recently I had to figgure out what the common thread was and it was me. I am in the process of being more available myself.
I suggest letting this be and taking a good hard look at your self and your patterns and your reactions to this and many other women and see what the common thread is. Dont be afraid to feel the pain..However if you hold onto the pain it does become damaging. Feel the fear and do it anyways is a great book that can help you out in many ways... ok really rambling now .

I have not ever noticed this pattern with women before...but then again I have not asked out very many . I have noticed that over the past week the pain has began to go away as I refocus my thoughts. The woman actually made eye contact with me and said hey to me in a very polite and friendly way. I am surprised she would not be nervous or awkward speaking to me after the fact. I dont take this seriously--just her being polite