The list of female privileges

[Erki]

Just to balance the other thread out...

[Marco Polo]

Multiple orgasms.

[Angela]

Well, the one that comes to mind is that women are more socialized to freely express what they are feeling than men are -- that whole, big boys don't cry thing. I think men really have some obstacles in their lives thanks to that kind of training.

[Erki]

Originally Posted by Marco Polo

Multiple orgasms.

Does that count as multiple privileges?

[Angela]

oh, yeah, Marco Polo -- that's the best one! But Erki specifically said in the other thread he was not talking about physical traits.

[Erki]

Originally Posted by Angela

oh, yeah, Marco Polo -- that's the best one! But Erki specifically said in the other thread he was not talking about physical traits.

Wasn't it a_t_c who said that? I'm ok with both physical and mental and emotional and spiritual and other things.

And now I'm envious too.

[Angela]

You are so right, Erki, I'm sorry! Sometimes you and she are so much alike I can't tell you apart!

[Honeywith4bees]

Giving birth and breast feeding are some pretty amazing privileges, although I do understand that not all women are able to do those things.

[Marco Polo]

Originally Posted by Honeywith4bees

Giving birth and breast feeding are some pretty amazing privileges, although I do understand that not all women are able to do those things.

Until the kid bites off part of your nipple. Happened to my brother's GF, you know.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Erki

Wasn't it a_t_c who said that? I'm ok with both physical and mental and emotional and spiritual and other things.

And now I'm envious too.

Erki said in the other thread that he didn't know of anything men can do that women cannot, but that there are things women can do and men cannot. I stated that I wasn't speaking as to capability, but the way each is valued and perceived in society. For example, I believe women are physically capable of doing male dominated jobs. Historically they were prohibited from doing so however. There have been divisions into "men's work" and "women's work" which I think are detrimental to both genders. However, I don't think the inherant physical differences (women can give birth, men can pee standing up) are at the crux of the problem. I believe it's how each have been stereotyped and labeld that I wanted to discuss. I think the inherent physical differences are of little consequence and neither side should feel badly about not being exactly alike in the physical area.

Ok, rambling!!! Erki has said he wants to explore all aspects including physical, while to me the physical does not enter into the discussion of "privilege." I think we are talking about totally different things. For example, I don't see giving birth and breastfeeding as a privilege that affords status or power in society though I definitely see them as something special to be appreciated by women.

[Akashic_Librarian]

Ouch...nipple biting...

You know Freud reckons that child is gonna have something wrong with him, hmm I can't remember just what it is, but its something to do with money...spending freely or something...ahh the joys of psychodynamic-psychosexual development *In Borat voice* Nawwwt!

Whoa off topic there sorry, yeah womens priviliges, hmm...you get to...be able to look at breasts whenever you want. Thats a damn good privelige.

No I kid, I kid. I am not a chauvanist, honest.

Like Angela said women have moer emotional freedom in a public setting. Women are allowed to have bubble-baths without having negative-homosexual connotations thrown at them verbally...

Same goes for using conditioner, candles, and in some areas things like meditation and PD. I have to live with constant insults about it from my less that understanding peers. Soo...

Yeah women are better than men...or something like that.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Nothing that anyone has listed so far as a female privilege affords women heightened status or preferential treatment in society which is what I understood the term to mean. If we are just talking about cool things each can do then I have been having the wrong discussion. I certainly am thankful for the multiple orgasm thing. And very happy that I will (one day) get to experience having a child.

Emotional openness is still seen as a weakness that is tolerated in women. I haven't seen it widely celebrated. In the workforce certainly it's a drawback.

[Erki]

I feel that the reason why such listings and comparings of men's and women's values just go nowhere is that... it's wrogn approach.

How can men and women get along nicely if we all the time compare each other and see who has it bad and how the other sex has it better.

In my opinion, feminism doesn't work anymore. It's just simply one-sided. Why do we need feminism and some men's movement thingies? Men vs. women. Just that now we are more equal than before. When we are more equal than ever, why can't we get together and start building the better world together?

[Erki]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

Nothing that anyone has listed so far as a female privilege affords women heightened status or preferential treatment in society which is what I understood the term to mean. If we are just talking about cool things each can do then I have been having the wrong discussion. I certainly am thankful for the multiple orgasm thing. And very happy that I will (one day) get to experience having a child.

One thing with the cool things is still that there's no "cool things" one can do as a man. Male body is just so &¤&/ing boring. Yes, it's stronger, but not really all that much. Men live shorter lives - that's not stronger. Even if you live in the woods, you can still live decently as a woman. I have never felt that it's so very good that I have stronger muscles. It's nice, but I don't it's necessary. Women seem to have more pain, and more pleasure. Just overall, they can have more feelings. Emotional or physical or some other way.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Erki

I feel that the reason why such listings and comparings of men's and women's values just go nowhere is that... it's wrogn approach.

How can men and women get along nicely if we all the time compare each other and see who has it bad and how the other sex has it better.

In my opinion, feminism doesn't work anymore. It's just simply one-sided. Why do we need feminism and some men's movement thingies? Men vs. women. Just that now we are more equal than before. When we are more equal than ever, why can't we get together and start building the better world together?

Sure, that's true. Instead of focusing on differences and comparisons we could all work together for the good of all. Our system is not necessarily set up to make it easy for less powerful members of society to make changes. But if we all decided to work together and make the world better. But not everyone has the same idea about what would make the world better either.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Erki

One thing with the cool things is still that there's no "cool things" one can do as a man. Male body is just so &¤&/ing boring. Yes, it's stronger, but not really all that much. Men live shorter lives - that's not stronger. Even if you live in the woods, you can still live decently as a woman. I have never felt that it's so very good that I have stronger muscles. It's nice, but I don't it's necessary. Women seem to have more pain, and more pleasure. Just overall, they can have more feelings. Emotional or physical or some other way.

I think men can have the same feelings and just as intense, only they have been discourged very strongly from doing so for so long it seems impossible.

We each serve our purpose as far as physical traits go. Instead of bemoaning what we cannot do (physically) why not embrace what we can. Men are necessary for the continuation of the species as well as females. I don't know why we are set up the way we are, but I figure it must serve some purpose. To negate your (men's) role in it is to do a disservice I believe. We are all valuable and integral to keeping things going. We all have something to bring to the table.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Marco Polo

Multiple orgasms.

I understand that it's possible for men to learn to have multiple orgasms.

Originally Posted by Erki

In my opinion, feminism doesn't work anymore. It's just simply one-sided.

The name does seem to be asking for trouble. If the goal is equality between both genders, why choose a name for it that only reflects one gender? It reeks of "but some people are more equal than others".

[Marco Polo]

@Keith: thanks, erm... I'll check that out *cough*


As for female priviliges. I'll use the only one I've got lots of experience with: the educational system. All the way up, girls are doing much better at school. That much is obvious. I've seen this first hand; in terms of grades, and hence chances for a bright academic future, girls take us guys to the cleaners.

Are girls simply smarter then? Quite possibly. But I wouldn't be willing to wager on that. I think the problem runs a bit deeper. Most modern school systems (certainly the ones I've experienced) are set up to reward those who take personal responisbility. Gone are the days of a strictly disciplined school environment, of teachers standing over you with a metal ruler.

Thing is... girls are so much more MATURE than boys. When given a lot of freedom, they're the first ones to take responsibility. Boys need a lot more pressure and discipline to work. My favourite teacher was the also the strictest... she knew how to scream and shout, how to keep us properly in line. And I liked that. She was one of the few I actually learned something from.

Many studies have actually shown that boys learn better in a very disciplined environment. Girls fare better in a softer, more mellow environment where they can work indepedently. I feel that too many of my male friends got screwed because they weren't disciplined enough at school. I think society is going too soft on young boys, and it's hurting them. And yes, I realize that may sound awful to some ears.

This may not be a 'privilege' per se, so if you want refute it on those grounds, then go ahead. This is what I believe anyway.

[Erki]

The thing with education, with both boys or girls, is that if you don't like the subject, you won't learn it. I bet a lot of boys would eagerly go and learn about surviving in the forest or how to climb a tree or something... fun.

Really, discipline to me just means that I'm forced to do something what I don't want to do.

Can society be any less soft on boys? I have never seen any softness.

[Honeywith4bees]

Originally Posted by Marco Polo

As for female priviliges. I'll use the only one I've got lots of experience with: the educational system. All the way up, girls are doing much better at school. That much is obvious. I've seen this first hand; in terms of grades, and hence chances for a bright academic future, girls take us guys to the cleaners.

I agree with you on this. Some years back, educators in the US saw that girls were not faring as well as boys on academic tests due to their intrinsic learning differences, so they revamped the way that they did their teaching. Unfortunately, this seemed to leave boys out in the cold. I have four sons, three of whom are now in the public school system so I am concerned about this issue. Check out what this researcher has to say as well. Boys Adrift. I'm beginning to wonder if single sex schools would be a better approach to formal learning?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

I agree that education could use some changes. Not just between boys and girls, but between different learning styles. Some kids just cannot thrive in the classroom environment as it is set up now.

[DayInTheLife]

Being a man I can only directly perceive female advantages in terms of male disadvantages to which they are not subject.

My biggest frustration about being a man is that society places many old-fashioned expectations on males. Females are exempt from these specific conventions, although I know they have their own to deal with.

Men are expected to be aggressive and dominant, even violent. When somebody insults you, those around you expect you to strike back, rather than let it go... because "only a p*ssy would take sh*t from people"

Alpha male behavior is rewarded with admiration from peers and, unfortunately, attention from many females.

We're expected to hide our sensitivity and emotions.

We're expected to be able to deal with everything ourselves without seeking help.

We're expected (particularly among young males) to refer to women offhandedly as bitches and sluts, and to speak about sex overtly and boastfully. There is an odd convention of speaking about women with a vague disdain, as if they have (or should have) zero power over a man.

Young men are expected to have sexual relationships with as many women as possible, to 'get laid' regularly, and if they don't do this, they are expected to lie about it as opposed to being dismissed as a beta male.

It is, of course up to each of us to transcend these archaic pressures, but at this point in time, our culture is still aligned with these ideals. When a man rejects these conventions, his manhood is often explicitly questioned by his peers.

In other words, men are still rewarded socially for behaving like cavemen. It is a real struggle to reject all of this when we are still subject to incredibly strong caveman instincts and the social structure that results from them.

[Marco Polo]

@DayInTheLife: Get some new friends. Seriously, you're hanging in the wrong circles.

[Ree]

Originally Posted by DayInTheLife

Being a man I can only directly perceive female advantages in terms of male disadvantages to which they are not subject.

My biggest frustration about being a man is that society places many old-fashioned expectations on males. Females are exempt from these specific conventions, although I know they have their own to deal with.

Men are expected to be aggressive and dominant, even violent. When somebody insults you, those around you expect you to strike back, rather than let it go... because "only a p*ssy would take sh*t from people"

Alpha male behavior is rewarded with admiration from peers and, unfortunately, attention from many females.

We're expected to hide our sensitivity and emotions.

We're expected to be able to deal with everything ourselves without seeking help.

We're expected (particularly among young males) to refer to women offhandedly as bitches and sluts, and to speak about sex overtly and boastfully. There is an odd convention of speaking about women with a vague disdain, as if they have (or should have) zero power over a man.

Young men are expected to have sexual relationships with as many women as possible, to 'get laid' regularly, and if they don't do this, they are expected to lie about it as opposed to being dismissed as a beta male.

It is, of course up to each of us to transcend these archaic pressures, but at this point in time, our culture is still aligned with these ideals. When a man rejects these conventions, his manhood is often explicitly questioned by his peers.

In other words, men are still rewarded socially for behaving like cavemen. It is a real struggle to reject all of this when we are still subject to incredibly strong caveman instincts and the social structure that results from them.

Fortunately I haven't encountered a man like this in decades. Please tell us where you're finding them, so we can avoid them like the plague!

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Ree

Fortunately I haven't encountered a man like this in decades. Please tell us where you're finding them, so we can avoid them like the plague!

We have some in Texas .

[DayInTheLife]

Originally Posted by Marco Polo

@DayInTheLife: Get some new friends. Seriously, you're hanging in the wrong circles.

Haha obviously I'm only highlighting the negative traits; reading my post again I really painted an overly bleak picture of men.

But the essence of my point is still true: society still rewards testosterone-fueled ambition; the impulse to outdo others, to dominate social and commercial groups, to 'conquer,' in various forms is a prevalent value, in my society anyway.

I do not believe you've never witnessed this.

It can difficult to reconcile these particular social values with one's own individual values if they are in opposition to an old-fashioned status quo. Not everybody is free of the egoic need to fit in.

[sonicpunk32]

Originally Posted by Angela

Well, the one that comes to mind is that women are more socialized to freely express what they are feeling than men are -- that whole, big boys don't cry thing. I think men really have some obstacles in their lives thanks to that kind of training.

it's a good thing i'm free to cry to my girlfriend, which i do alot of.. sometimes..

[agnostic]

Read "The Myth Of Male Power" and "Rantings Of A Single Male" for that.
For starters: Men have a 13 times higher suicide rate.