The list of male privileges

[Erki]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

I don't think you are horrible, Erki. I just feel like you think I am trying to make you wrong and bad as if you are representitive of all men and more importantly patriarchal culture. Individual men (or women for that matter) are not the issue. Societal norms and expectations are what I was talking about. I wouldn't call you bad in a million years or wish for you to think it of yourself. That's not what this discussion is about. As I said before, this is a general discussion. It's not my view that this is "all men" and certainly not you in particular.

OK. I see, it's the society as a whole who puts more value on me than you.

****ING STUPID SOCIETY!!! Why the hell put value on me when I'm clearly not worth it? Grrr. **** **** **** everything.

It doesn't take away the representative status of me. I have been given privileges and good things for no damned reason. I shouldn't have them.

Damn. I should be sleeping already.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Joely

Women didn't work for the same reasons that men worked. During that period, married women felt themselves to be extremely privileged if they didn't have to work. The only reason for having a job opportunity was to raise money if the family was in real financial trouble. You have to understand that women at that time did not see such things in the same terms that we do today. The first feminists, as I've said elsewhere on this forum, actually protested in favour of higher wages for men so that their wives didn't have to work. Because women's "duty" as it was then seen was in the home, having the double nightmare of working to help support their family and caring for it was what feminists wanted to alleviate.

There are a few exceptions to this - weaving in Lancashire was considered an occupation by many women and they were paid at the same piece rates as men - but women were not, on the whole, keen to be employed unless they absolutely had to be. They were, strangely enough, proud of their role as mothers and wives and wanted to do it to the best of their ability. They were part and parcel of the cultural attitudes of the time. It's very difficult to take events from that period, chop off all the cultural and social context and then apply our own attitudes and standards.

I guess my view of the best way for all of this to work is that everyone -- male and female -- be able to chose what they want to do: work, raise a family, anything and that it be accpeted and valued in society. Every era has had set gender roles and expectations. And I know that I'm not eductaed enough about them all. My point is that any norm that says it has to be a certain way for a certain gender should be rejected and everyone should be free to do what they chose.

I believe I was considering the women who were employed in mines to be those who had no choice but to work and who maybe desperately needed that job. I equated having that taken away as not helpful but harmful.

[Joely]

Originally Posted by Erki

OK. I see, it's the society as a whole who puts more value on me than you.

****ING STUPID SOCIETY!!! Why the hell put value on me when I'm clearly not worth it? Grrr. **** **** **** everything.

It doesn't take away the representative status of me. I have been given privileges and good things for no damned reason. I shouldn't have them.

Damn. I should be sleeping already.

Erki,

Look at it a different way. You are entitled to those privileges, you do deserve them. It just happens that women deserve them too.

As the feminists were wont to say: "full rights for men and nothing more, full rights for women and nothing less."

Don't beat yourself up over it. It's not worth it.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Erki

OK. I see, it's the society as a whole who puts more value on me than you.

****ING STUPID SOCIETY!!! Why the hell put value on me when I'm clearly not worth it? Grrr. **** **** **** everything.

It doesn't take away the representative status of me. I have been given privileges and good things for no damned reason. I shouldn't have them.

Damn. I should be sleeping already.

Oh my goodness. No. Not. What. I. Meant. At. All! Each of us is worthy and that is why I believe society should come to a place where that is recognized, where we all have equal rights and privileges, where no one is seen as more worthy than another. We are all the same.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Joely

Erki,

Look at it a different way. You are entitled to those privileges, you do deserve them. It just happens that women deserve them too.

As the feminists were wont to say: "full rights for men and nothing more, full rights for women and nothing less."

Don't beat yourself up over it. It's not worth it.

Yes, better said than I. Thanks.

[Erki]

Women's suffering has been historically men's, and thus my fault. Time to pay for it.

[Joely]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

I guess my view of the best way for all of this to work is that everyone -- male and female -- be able to chose what they want to do: work, raise a family, anything and that it be accpeted and valued in society. Every era has had set gender roles and expectations. And I know that I'm not eductaed enough about them all. My point is that any norm that says it has to be a certain way for a certain gender should be rejected and everyone should be free to do what they chose.

I believe I was considering the women who were employed in mines to be those who had no choice but to work and who maybe desperately needed that job. I equated having that taken away as not helpful but harmful.

Ah, I see what you mean now!

One of the toughest things for me was shedding my own stereotypes when I began doing my work and appreciating how women thought and lived in the time that they did. What's fascinating about the nineteenth century is that women lost a great deal of rights in a short period and then started the work of winning them back. I have a book of letters written by working class women who were working and raising families in the 1880-90s (well after the mines act in 1842), and I have no end of admiration and respect for them. They weren't highbrow feminists or especially vehement. They were doing what they did and they were so proud of who they were and how they coped with their conditions. At the time they were very politely fighting to get free medical support for pregnant women - who frequently worked up until days before they gave birth and then if they had to went straight back. It's amazing to see how far we've come.

We did reject, or at least, we're in the process of rejecting those stereotypes and norms. Sorry if I go overboard - all the love I had for studying these women's lives has come back writing for this thread!

[Erki]

Originally Posted by Joely

Sorry if I go overboard - all the love I had for studying these women's lives has come back writing for this thread!

No need to be sorry. At least women have historically always been dignified. Undignified by men. Men's history is full of wars and violence and ****.

[Joely]

Originally Posted by Erki

Women's suffering has been historically men's, and thus my fault. Time to pay for it.

That's simply not true on so many counts, Erki. I'm trying not to imagine you beating yourself up à la the monk in The Da Vinci Code right now...

Women's suffrage was never originally about women vs. men. It was about women having the same rights as men in society. There were both men and women who regarded women as being of a specific, perhaps we could say 'inferior' biology or mentality.

What doesn't help us at all in society is men feeling set upon because women have claimed their rights to be the same as men's, and neither does women (or men, for that matter), claiming it's all men's fault. How do we progress when we focus on blame and anger? All we do is create more blame and anger, and nobody wins - everybody loses. If you want to make something right out of your feelings of shame or whatever drives your responses tonight, Erki, there are things you can do that are far more positive than generating more anger, blame and unhappiness.

Why not turn it around? Take all that blame and anger you feel at yourself and transform it. Become an advocate for better rights in the workplace, support work crèche schemes. Even better, get involved with the various movements trying to alleviate the suffering of women in parts of the world where they still have no rights.

No good can come of hating yourself and holding yourself personally responsible for the suffering of women now or in the past. Can you see that?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Erki

Women's suffering has been historically men's, and thus my fault. Time to pay for it.

Nope, not the point I was making either. No blame, no amends to be made. Everyone has suffered historically. There is simply another possibility of a way to live where neither men nor women have to fit into any role prescribed by men, women or society. Surely women have placed men in certain roles historically as well and expected certain behavior. I still believe men have had more power than women in the past, but that doesn't mean we take it all away now and punish all men for history. We just choose another way. I don't know how things evolved the way they did or who first decided how it would be for each gender. That is a question I'd love to have the answer to...how did this happen?! I don't think either gender is inherently bad with nefarious motives. But why did things go the way they did? Why are any people anywhere oppressed (due to gender, race, religion, etc)?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Joely

We did reject, or at least, we're in the process of rejecting those stereotypes and norms. Sorry if I go overboard - all the love I had for studying these women's lives has come back writing for this thread!

It's good. I know for sure I have an idea in my head of how things went down, but I also cannot claim to have studied this thoroughly. It's all unfounded opinion -- imagine that!

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Joely

Women's suffrage was never originally about women vs. men. It was about women having the same rights as men in society. There were both men and women who regarded women as being of a specific, perhaps we could say 'inferior' biology or mentality.

What doesn't help us at all in society is men feeling set upon because women have claimed their rights to be the same as men's, and neither does women (or men, for that matter), claiming it's all men's fault. How do we progress when we focus on blame and anger? All we do is create more blame and anger, and nobody wins - everybody loses. If you want to make something right out of your feelings of shame or whatever drives your responses tonight, Erki, there are things you can do that are far more positive than generating more anger, blame and unhappiness.

Damnit, stop saying what I want to say so much more eloquently!! Argh.

Just kidding. I now defer to Joely in my responses and will just say "see Joely's post."

[Joely]

Originally Posted by Erki

No need to be sorry. At least women have historically always been dignified. Undignified by men. Men's history is full of wars and violence and ****.

I don't think that's true at all. What about all the philosophy, art, culture and love spread by men throughout the ages? If you want an idea of men's contribution on just a small scale, go and walk around Florence, Italy. There is much beauty there to be seen produced by male hands. History is replete with courageous and honourable men, and many of them, like women, don't feature in history books because they didn't do anything big, but their lives were models of respect and dignity.

Go and read John Stuart Mill. There were many men, like him, who believed in the rights of women and supported them.

This is getting back to my thesis again but here goes anyway. When I was researching women, the family and their work, what I found was not that women were the slaves of tyrannical husbands, but that they were involved in complex relationships, just as they are today. Some husbands were horrible, some wives were just as bad, if not worse. They were human beings getting on with their lives the best way that they could.

The idea of women being oppressed by Dreadful Evil Men is so simplistic it's silly. We're all humans, living together and surviving together. I'd rather focus on that than attacking men for what happened in the past.

[Joely]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

It's good. I know for sure I have an idea in my head of how things went down, but I also cannot claim to have studied this thoroughly. It's all unfounded opinion -- imagine that!

Like any movement, it started small, working within the boundaries of social norms, and then branched out. Some of the individuals involved - wow - real heroines! I feel honoured, as it's because of their insistence, persistence, and courage, that I got to do a PhD in the first place.

I'll stop being all gushy now, but it was that attitude that got me through the grueling five years it took to finish!

[Erki]

Even if the suffering wasn't necessarily men's fault, it still feels bad and unfair.

For example, my thread about childbirth and pain. Women have to feel huge pain, and men have it all easy. It's unfair. Where's my pain? How do I have to torture myself so that I can be equal?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

If anything, this thread has shown me how an approach like mine might come across. It's not my intention to blame all men everywhere for being horrible bastards intent on subjegating women. I don't know why certain things took place. I am not sure why in many parts of the world women have little to no rights to this day. But all I want is for us to see each other as people sharing the world we live in where each has every right in kind and no one has to feel pinched into some stereotype. I am not about turning the tables, even if the tables were ever so clearly placed. The past happened. Some of it sucked. Now we can make some other choices. But all I advocate is equality and freedom for everyone. And that wouldn't allow for men having to pay some huge debt. I am sure the reasons things played out like they did is complex, maybe beyond comprehension. I have probably made it too simple in my mind.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Erki

Even if the suffering wasn't necessarily men's fault, it still feels bad and unfair.

For example, my thread about childbirth and pain. Women have to feel huge pain, and men have it all easy. It's unfair. Where's my pain? How do I have to torture myself so that I can be equal?

I think I may have said before, I don't know who decided that women would be the ones to carry and birth children. Not really sure why things are set up the way they are. But this is how it is. I don't think it's unfair. I doubt many women consider childbirth torture (I could be wrong of course ). And I don't think you have to make up for not being the one to do it somehow.

All suffering stinks. Men have suffered too as we have seen. It's reality. The best we can do is to reduce suffering wherever we witness it, no? Rather than feel shamed or try to suffer ourselves to make it right. All that does is create more suffering in the world, not less.

[SunnKali]

If it's true that in our many past lives we've lived lives as both men and women (nonconcurrent), perhaps that combined experience in our soul might trickle down to our current life and help us to build up both sexes to their best selves. In the meantime, compassion for the experiences and pains of all people can help to soften the edges of separation that we build whenever we come into an us vs them thought.

[Joely]

Originally Posted by Erki

Even if the suffering wasn't necessarily men's fault, it still feels bad and unfair.

For example, my thread about childbirth and pain. Women have to feel huge pain, and men have it all easy. It's unfair. Where's my pain? How do I have to torture myself so that I can be equal?

Oh Erki!

I was tempted to say you could try pooing a bowling ball when your wife's in labour but here's a better way of looking at it:

instead of moping about the fact that you don't get to feel the pain of childbirth, be there, be fully present and in the moment when your partner has her child (should you have a partner and have children). Help her with the choice of birth methods, support her in every way you can, learn the breathing techniques and support her. Now that's really helpful!

You know, speaking as a woman I'm not bothered that men don't go through "the pain of childbirth". I'd rather my partner didn't go through it because I'd really like his help and support while I'm giving birth and if he's in a corner bawling he's not much good to anybody.

I can see a lot of your defensiveness comes from a feeling of being ashamed to be a man, and I think that might be part of the pain-body men have acquired when they feel guilt over what happened in the past. But the past is the past. You can't change it, just as you can't change biology. Celebrate who you are, that you get to see the side of life that you do, and celebrate women for being who they are.

[Erki]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

All suffering stinks. Men have suffered too as we have seen.

But the big difference between men's and women's sufferings is that men themselves have brought their suffering onto themselves. Men decided that wars and violence was necessary, it's men who are aggressive and violent. So it's just their own fault anyway.