Something real bad happened.

[Jamie]

Happened to my sister, not me. I'm worried about her though. I don't know if this is in the right place, but it's kinda involves relationships, so ...

She's just made an attempt on her life, paracetamol OD. I'm concerned for her, and also, that I have the wisdom to guide her and influence her towards the right action for her, or to guide her to the best help.

It's not something that's just happened, it's a culmination of things, over the years really, bad life circumstances (bad partner, he's a bad influence on her, and my sisters' daughter, money worries, her partner drinks etc). To my way of thinking, she needs to get rid of him, he has a bad effect, and it adds up over the years. She realises this too, but she's hanging on to him, cos he brings in a small amount of cash, and her daughter wants her parents to be together, but still, it's not good for my sis, and she's depressed.

To my way of thinking, get rid of him, reduce financial out-goings, maybe sell house, down-size etc; but put people before property.

It's a danger of course, for me to suggest that I know what's best for her, but I see it differently, more objective, from the outside. So, I'm considering to continually re-enforce the idea, or suggest to her, that she should think about making such and such changes. Maybe presenting as options to her.

I dunno, what do you think? I'm not a trained councellor or anything. They're keeping her in hospital for a few days, which I think is good, give her thinking time etc.

I just needed to type that out, am sure different people will have different takes on this, please feel free to suggest away.

Thanks,
Jamie.

[Erin Pavlina]

Use empathic listening to help her. People don't like to be told what to do, but if you can help them gently see what's in their best interest then sometimes that works well.

Ask her how she would like to live. Help her find the courage to speak the truth about what she really wants, not what she thinks she is worthy of. Oftentimes people know what they really want but because they don't think they can get it they act like they don't want it. it takes courage to say, 'I don't like my situation but I don't know how to change it yet."

Good luck to both of you!

[Jamie]

Thanks Erin, I understand and appreciate what your saying, and for the most part very much agree with what you're saying.

It's difficult with my sister, because she'll be determined to not accept any help, and to solve her own problems in her own way (which isn't really working for her). She can also be deceptive and manipulative; I don't doubt that she has the best of intentions, but her way of dealing with things, isn't really working.

I was with her last night, in the hospital, and they were going to admit her; she convinced me to go home, after some time I did. I'm kicking myself now, because she's now at home (not the best place for her IMHO), she says they discharged her, but I strongly suspect she's discharged herself (after getting me out of the way).

I wish I'd given the doctor more background info on her, she's very good at pulling the wool over people's eyes, but I'm sure that's not a good thing here.

I'm tempted to call the hospital and find out if she did discharge herself or not, also to get in touch with her GP, and give a little background info; am not sure on the ethics of that though, but perhaps it would help if the GP has my insights as to what she's lile (i.e. very good at playing things down, pretending there's no problem, so as not get outside help, so she can try and do it her way).

It's really hard to get clarity and know what's for the best.

Jamie.

[Joely]

Hi Jamie,

I'm so sorry this has happened and I can see you want to do everything you can to make things work out for her. Unfortunately your GP can't discuss your sister with you unless you have power of attorney: patient confidentiality applies here.

I can appreciate how both of you feel, but I think the reason why your sister refuses to get help is that she's scared of being seen as weak and helpless. It sounds to me like a control issue - she wants control of her life and to do things her way. I think if you try to sort everything out for her, that might only make the problem worse. The best thing, the absolute best thing you can do for her now is not try to sort her out. Listen, be there for her, support her, allow her to be her rather than fixing her. It might be that she feels that you're judging her, and think you know better than her, which will make her feel angry and resentful and less likely to listen.

There's one other thing: this is her life to live for herself. She can find her own way out of this if you give her the encouragement to believe that she can. I speak as somebody who's been suicidal, been in a similar place and pulled myself out.

PM me if you'd like any further help - I've been through this with a few other friends so it's kind of familiar.

J x

[Parthon]

Hi Jamie.

That's a pickle of a situation you and your sister are in. It's hard to imagine what that would be like.

What Erin said is spot on, I just would like to reemphasise it in another way.

Firstly: You can't do anything to help her. Nothing at all. Zero, zip, nada, nothing. By that I mean anything you DO just helps her stay exactly where she is. Any progress in her life will also be slowly undone because in the long term she's still the same person. The only way you can improve her life is to get her to see her life in a new way.

For that you will need to use passive empathic listening as Erin suggested. Find out why she feels she's in her position. Find out why she's going out with such a terrible partner, from your point of view. There's a good chance that she sees him as the greatest person she can be with now, or that she's trapped and can't get out. Just get into her world and find out what's really going on for her. Don't offer any suggestions, help, advice, opinions or assistance unless she directly and specifically asks for it. Just give your empathy, compassion and listening. Support her and help her open up, and guide her towards the truth. She needs to discover it for herself. Your job will be to lead her there, not tell her directly. Frankly it's because you don't know the truth either, and you don't know her personal truths. It's only through our own discovery that we each have a chance of finding the truth. When she sees her own truth for herself, she will know what to do and will ask for help if needed.

I know it sounds like I'm telling you what to do, but if you want your sister to be the best person she can be, you have to stop helping her, and support her instead. Show her the way out of the darkness and into the light by guiding her with your love, not your judgement.

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by Parthon

Hi Jamie.

That's a pickle of a situation you and your sister are in. It's hard to imagine what that would be like.

What Erin said is spot on, I just would like to reemphasise it in another way.

Firstly: You can't do anything to help her. Nothing at all. Zero, zip, nada, nothing. By that I mean anything you DO just helps her stay exactly where she is. Any progress in her life will also be slowly undone because in the long term she's still the same person. The only way you can improve her life is to get her to see her life in a new way.

Yep, I can see where you're coming from, and I completely agree with you (and everyone else).

I'm not seeking to solve her problems for her, not that kind of DO-ing, just the kind where, I (we) build a connection, and a place of trust between us, where she feels she can come and talk to me about things. Right now, she doesn't feel that way. So when I say "what can I DO", I guess, it's more in terms of building a trusting and open relationship, so she completely knows that people are on her side, and want the best for her, and will help her to help herself in her own way, pace, and time. To find her own clarity, strength and power, which is what I want for her.

Originally Posted by Parthon

For that you will need to use passive empathic listening as Erin suggested. Find out why she feels she's in her position. Find out why she's going out with such a terrible partner, from your point of view. There's a good chance that she sees him as the greatest person she can be with now, or that she's trapped and can't get out. Just get into her world and find out what's really going on for her. Don't offer any suggestions, help, advice, opinions or assistance unless she directly and specifically asks for it. Just give your empathy, compassion and listening. Support her and help her open up, and guide her towards the truth. She needs to discover it for herself. Your job will be to lead her there, not tell her directly. Frankly it's because you don't know the truth either, and you don't know her personal truths. It's only through our own discovery that we each have a chance of finding the truth. When she sees her own truth for herself, she will know what to do and will ask for help if needed.

With regards to her partner; trouble has been brewing for years, she admits herself that he's a big problem, and a bad influence in her life, that she wants rid, and it's only for her daughters sake, and for the money he brings in, that she keeps him around. He actually drinks a long, and while not overly violent, I think he's pretty much emotionally and mentally abusive, and people like that, are in my opinion, like a slow poison.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's true. I'm sure he's an ok guy, somewhere, deep down inside, he's just in a bit of a mess; I've never had a decent honest conversation with him, he's always putting on an (big-man) act, all the while, I guess he's in pain, and feeling insecure within himself.

I'm aware that I don't know the complete truth, that I just see things through my own eyes, and there is a danger of my grafting my own solutions in to her. I agree, that is likely to only cause more resistance, and won't foster a more open and trusting connection between us.

It's hard for me, cos (I think) I see things in a very pragmatic, and clear-cut way, but my sis is very emotional, and doesn't seem to consider the effect of all the influnences she allows in to her life, in the now, and the effect those influnences will have, further down the road.

I'm a bit distressed and concerned at the moment, and it's a bit tiring; so am not sure how much sense I make, but thanks once again for all your replies, I'll be sure to read them all again, when I've settled down a bit, and can digest a bit better.

Jamie.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by Jamie

I guess, it's more in terms of building a trusting and open relationship, so she completely knows that people are on her side, and want the best for her, and will help her to help herself in her own way, pace, and time. To find her own clarity, strength and power, which is what I want for her.

Why don't you start with this? Be(come) the person who is on her side. The one that she can completely trust and come to for help.

I'd give her a simple message: "I feel for you and hope you'll be alright. Call me, if there is anything I can do to help you."

Keep sending that message, but also give her a chance to come to you when she chooses to, when she's ready.

[Jamie]

It's an idea Jim, thanks.

Right now, I'm really concerned that she's in the same environment that she was in before (before she tried to kill herself yesterday), nothing has changed, except maybe shes' shocked at herself, and ashamed, feeling guilty that she's let people down. But the factors that led her to trying to take her own life are still there. I'm scared that if I do nothing, she'll try again. I'm also real worried how she plays it all down, to everyone (doctors, her own family). I'm thinking it may be a good idea to get her out of that environment for a time.

I'll send her a message though. Thanks Jim, everyone.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Hey, Jamie, just wanted to say I'm really sorry about your sister. I have had friends who tried to commit suicide before. There is not really anything like that feeling of helplessness when someone you love does that.

I think everyone posting has great points. The most wonderful thing you can do for her is to be there. It will be up to her whether she decides to open up and actually accept your support. I think if you try to "fix" her or the things she's going through, it would only backfire. I can see how much you want to help...it's only natural. Just be strong and available and loving. I believe she will come to you. And when she does, she will be really ready for what you have to offer.

Another note I would add is not to bash her partner to her. In my experience it makes them hold on tighter, like there is something to prove. She knows what he's like and she knows you know it too.

Lots of love, strength and peace to you and your sister. I'll be thinking of you guys.

[Jamie]

Thank you aspiring, you're a little star!

I've sent her a message, I think if I constanty let her know that the 'door' is open. That's a good thing for now.

Thanks once again to everyone.

Jamie.

[uberinquisitive]

My fiancé successfully completed suicide in Jan. 2007.

I feel a boatload of empathy and sympathy for you and your family.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by Jamie

I'm considering to continually re-enforce the idea, or suggest to her, that she should think about making such and such changes. Maybe presenting as options to her.

Hey Jamie,

I think this is not a good idea. Like others have said before, using empathic listening and letting the door open is all you can do. Everything else would invade her territory. It's her life. She has to find her way out of that herself and as bad as it sounds there is just nothing you can do about it. It's not your job, and you wouldn't be able to do it. It has to come from inside her.

Just wanted to let you know that I feel for you. You're such a lovely person. Much love to you,

Rose.

[Guardian Angel]

Hi Jamie,

I am not sure if this could help but I want to share to you my own experience. I will try to make it short but detailed as it could be.

One of my lady office mates tried to kill herself in front of me and 2 other officemates around 6 years ago. The reason for her attempt was due to a failed relationship, depression and loneliness.

Since I was the oldest among the group, I volunteered myself to pacify her. I really do not know what to do then coz she is screaming and crying non-stop. But since we know each other somehow, I found a way to share my personal problems to her in which I seldom do. I made her realized that her problems were much easier to handle than mine. I even cried when I was telling her one by one. That was not intentional, I got carried away.

Surprisingly, the girl handed me the knife and hug me tight. The next year, she got married and my gift was the most cherished by all - the knife that almost ended her life!

I think that if your sister would only realize that there are a lot of worst problems around the world to attend to, she will most likely want to live and help.

[Joely]

Just wanted to say Jamie that your sister's a lucky woman to have you there right now.

[Jamie]

Thanks for all you support and suggestions guys.

I've just been talking to my sister, and she definately hates him, it's not that I'm putting the words in to her mouth. I get the impression that she's very much resolved to kick him out. Just that her daughter wants him to stay, and although she is only nine, she's very willful.

I've expressed my own opinions too, as to the nature of his character (or lack of). I also let her know something he said to me the first time we met, about he was going to be top-dog in the family etc. I've never mentioned this to anyone before (t set the tone for our relationship all these years, I have never liked him).

I've told her, which ever way she wants to play it, I am on her side and will be supportive. I did mention that I felt it would be a good idea to have a change of environment, as much as possible, at least in the short-term.

Though she lives close to her mom and myself, she's pretty much on her own and isolated, and in a volotile and emotionally corrosive evironment (neighbours are a mixed bag too).

I'm going to continue, as and when appropriate, say what I feel and suggest courses of actions and concerns I may consider / take, should I be in her situation.

Thanks once again.

Jamie.

[Jamie]

Also ...

I don't know if I've mentioned this before, but my sisters partner, he uses my neice as a device to keep himself with my sister, in the house etc. He's very clever in this regard, using his daughter as a pawn, a device to get him what he wants, putting ideas in to her head etc.

So, as soon as my sister tells him to go, or gives him notice, to fins somewhere, I anticipate (knowing what he's like) he'll start turning my niece against my sister. So she'll be battling against two people.

I think she's at a point in her life, where she needs to consider timing, and stratagy, but she's very much distraught and unable to think with much clarity.

Does that make sense?

[Jamie]

I can't believe she's still with him, nothing seems to have changed, I don't think she's even made an appointment to see her GP (which she said she would at the hospital) or get any help at all. I'm finding it all very draining, in my gut, feels so tight, almost breathless. It's such a messed up dysfunctional family unit and environment. I really don't like him. I'm not so sure I'm handling this very well. It would be nice to have a chat with someone about it. Anyone want to volunteer?

Jamie.

[Joely]

Originally Posted by Jamie

I can't believe she's still with him, nothing seems to have changed, I don't think she's even made an appointment to see her GP (which she said she would at the hospital) or get any help at all. I'm finding it all very draining, in my gut, feels so tight, almost breathless. It's such a messed up dysfunctional family unit and environment. I really don't like him. I'm not so sure I'm handling this very well. It would be nice to have a chat with someone about it. Anyone want to volunteer?

Jamie.

In what sense chat? Online?

[Angela]

Jamie, if you could be granted one wish to have a quality or condition present in this situation, what would it be? What quality or condition would really make a difference?

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by Jamie

I can't believe she's still with him, nothing seems to have changed

Don't you think it a little unfair of you to expect her to change so 'quickly'? Who are you to judge that she would be willing and able to change at this time?

I know this is very frustrating, believe me I do, but you really have no choice but to let her come about in her own time. There is a strange paradox at work in the world, where the less you desire to control the lives of others, the more you get to influence them. Strange but true...

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by Angela

Jamie, if you could be granted one wish to have a quality or condition present in this situation, what would it be? What quality or condition would really make a difference?

I think, for me, I'd have to say honesty. It just seems like things are being brushed under the carpet, and not coming out in to the open, to the light, where they can be addressed.

But Jim is right, it's not for me to set any time-scale. I'm probably not the most patient person in the world, I always like things to be done NOW. You know, if something isn't right, why not see to it right now. So for me, also, patience, and not to be dwelling on it all the time.

Jamie.

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

Don't you think it a little unfair of you to expect her to change so 'quickly'? Who are you to judge that she would be willing and able to change at this time?

I know this is very frustrating, believe me I do, but you really have no choice but to let her come about in her own time. There is a strange paradox at work in the world, where the less you desire to control the lives of others, the more you get to influence them. Strange but true...

You're right, I'm just impatient Jim.

*slow breaths*

Jamie.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Jamie

I think, for me, I'd have to say honesty. It just seems like things are being brushed under the carpet, and not coming out in to the open, to the light, where they can be addressed.

But Jim is right, it's not for me to set any time-scale. I'm probably not the most patient person in the world, I always like things to be done NOW. You know, if something isn't right, why not see to it right now. So for me, also, patience, and not to be dwelling on it all the time.

Jamie.

Jamie, how about YOU generating honesty right now? I see one thing you might want to be honest about, and that is the truth of the title of this thread. If you examine it, you'll find that "Something Really Wonderful has happened." If you are really generating honesty, it won't be hard for you to see that you can let go of "something bad has happened." You can't really know that for sure anyway, and "something wonderful has happened" is at least as true, isn't it?

Something really wonderful is happening right now for you. You are right in the middle of making a huge difference for your sister and for others by practicing letting go of what there is to let go of (I can see a lot in this thread; can you? ) and generating what will make a difference and will inspire you. Isn't that pretty wonderful?

You are here right now with us, and you are here for your family, and for yourself, to make a tremendous difference, and to generate something big and inspiring. Honesty is big and inspiring! What else would inspire you in this situation?

[Joely]

Hey there,

I've replied to your PM with a couple of tips. I disappeared into the world of Philip Pullman for a few hours so I missed your message. One thing I forgot to mention was that I think it's possible, if you book in to see the Mental Health Nurse to ask for an hour, rather than just a half-hour appointment. They might well swing that for you. It's important that you go there for *you* but they are great dispensers of wisdom and will be able to give you some support as well as practical advice.

And I've been there, Jamie. I've been in the ambulance and I've thought it was the end of the world and dying was my only way out. I also know that it passes, that things change. Sometimes you just have to give them time. She will find her way out. She sounds just as stubborn and bloody-minded as I am, and once she understands she has that strength, she will move on. Sometimes, although it's hard for relatives to watch, we have to go through very intense lessons so we can grow. This is growth for both of you, don't forget that.

J x

[Jamie]

I just wanted to quickly add, how much I apprecieate all your input, and wise words on this thread. It's certainly a practical help, for me, to discuss this and to get third party perspectives etc. Even if I've not responded specifically to each and every comment, I have read and considered them all, and they have been most helpful.

Thank you.

Defo is a big learning experience for myself too. One thing I've noticed, is how I want to find a quick and immediate solition. I can't though, and for me, I need to accept that these kind of things take time. It's been a shock for us all, hopefully it's a shock that will shake things up and give my sister the impetus to make the changes she needs to make.

Jamie.

[Jamie]

Well, there's been more developments ...

*sigh*

My sister, hadn't really taken any real steps to do anything about the situation. I think he's gradually, over the years, taken away her confidence, self-respect, messed with her head etc.

Anyways, she called me tonight, very short call, "will I come down, she wants him out of the house now, this very instant".

I go down there, he's upstairs, my sister downstairs. I have a 2 minute chat with my sis, check the situation, if she really wants to evict him, or give him notice to leave (ha, that's a joke!) ......... she want's him out, now, and he's refusing to leave.

So I go upstairs, with the intention of asking him to leave the house.

Get to the top of the stairs, and he suprised me, opened the bathroom door, and sprung at me, his first strike was his boot in to my nose, which stunned me. He then keeps coming at me, punching, and we fall to the floor, grappling. Mainly him doing the punching, and me getting hit / trying to ward him off.

After maybe a minute, I can see the futility of this experience, and I say, "look, I'm trying to retreat", I dis-entangle myself, and while keeping him at arms length, maybe my way back down the stairs. My sister had called the police, and they arrived after like 10 mins. He's been arrested and taken out of the house.

I had blood all over my face, not a pretty sight, and my nose is really swollen.

I remember thinking at the time, do I gougue his eyes out? I didn't really want to hurt the guy though.

So what a mess. If she takes him back now, that's it, I'll never speak to her again. I can't help but feell, and it's probably real bad for me to say, but my close family resemble a gaggle of head-less chickens, create all kinds of disfunctional situations for themselves (my sis has always been this way, always gone for ♥♥♥♥♥♥ men). What am I doing wrong eh? Too tollerant I guess.

In a way, it's good this has happened, am a bit pee'd at myself though, for having my life so tied up with people who don't seem to have any sense of perspective. I dunno. I may need a change of scenery. Difficult.

*sigh*

Jamie.

Families huh!?

[xyz]

Jamie,
I am sorry to know that you have to suffer physical blows. And you have every right to be pissed off with your sister. I think she needs professional help not your help. The most you can do is talk to your sister about professional help and she can try to be financially independent too. With financial independence she can have the taste of REAL freedom. Wishing you all the best and a speedy recovery.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

A big hug, Jamie. I hope this will give her the time and motivation to move on. Take care of yourself.

[Joely]

I hope that this turns out to be a turning point for her, hard though it is to go through at the time. J x

[Jamie]

Thanks guys.

I can't help but feel I've been a complete sucker in all this, over all these years. It pee's me off, how everything is smoothed over, and the female members of the family defend and justify him. I completely detest him, and if I'm being honest, I feel the same way about all the boyfriends my sister has ever had.

She's just so destructive, self-destructive too, and of course, it makes bad waves with the rest of the family.

I'm left with an impression that most people lack awareness, are disfunction, selfish, pretty crap etc. I'm sure that's not true, it's just how I feel this moment. As well as how this is affecting my sis, there's also an issue of how it's affecting me and my mom. There comes a point when you have to look after number 1 and stop trying to save people who seem set on a course of self-destruction. That's how I'm starting to feel, rightly or wrongly, I feel v pee'd off.

It's like when you see a man and a woman having an argument or fight. Some passer-by will interceed, to defend the women, the abusive guy will just laugh, and the woman will then attack the man who is defending her. That is what some women are like, and I'm ****** if I'm gonna be the man in the middle.

Jamie.