Abortion or not?

[SunnKali]

mncz - you have been so bold and open and brave and loving through all this. It's been quite an exploration to see your journey so far. Thank you for sharing. Adding my best wishes for your healing.

[Ninja]

Allow me to be very blunt, but I do not believe babies arrive for a reason: they arrive because two people had sex. But then again, I define the baby as a vessle for your child. If you choose to abort, your child will wait for you until you are ready. Again, That's just my view on things.

I think your instincs are warning you for a darn good reason. If you already feel deep in your heart that you wouldn't be doing your child a favor by letting him be born now, then please follow your gut feeling and have the abortion. There are so many unwanted children in the world: a baby should be born because both parents welcome it.

Edit: I see that you have had the abortion done already. Don't worry about your child: his first ride to the mortal plane is gone, but he'll wait for the next one until you are ready. If it's meant to be, you'll still meet him someday when the circumstances are better.

[Dannyboy1]

I don't believe anyone who has not had a child themselves has any right to offer you advice. I was pro choice until I had my child and now I thank God every day we never seriously considered abortion even though we had only been dating a year. It's easy to be pro choice when you haven't met your child yet, but make no mistake, you are stopping a life. This baby will never be born again. You will find a way if you have this baby. If you don't want the baby, there are many people who can't have children who will love you forever for having it. You created this being, you owe it to them to at least give them nine months of your life to give them a chance.

To anyone who's never had a child, I ask you to consider the fact that you do not have the experience to make this decision for someone else. Think about times when an experience transformed you into a totally opposite way of thinking. So much so, that when you try and change your friends minds, they cannot and even refuse to believe you. You've become enlightened in a way that they cannot possibly understand until they go through it. I cannot possibly explain the experience of having a child to you, but I can ask you to realize that if you did have the experience of having a child, you would definitely not take this decision as lightly as you are right now. I have never met a person who would ever consider having an abortion once they've had a child.

One more thing. When we found out we were having a baby, I was expressing my nervousness to an aquaintence I had know for a couple of years. I told him we were broke and I had no work and I wasn't sure I was ready, but we were going to have the baby anyway. He looked into my eyes with tears in his and he said, "We have been trying to have a child for years and we can't seem to make it happen. Please, give him to us. If you don't feel you can take care of him, give him to us." he then turned and walked away crying.

Originally Posted by mncz

Thank you, Gozunn, I have considered this point of view for the most part of last week. This way of thinking was the reason why I could not make my mind up about it for so long.

I want you to understand that my decision is not one of fear. I do not fear my future with or without the child. As I stated before, there is nothing I should fear if I decide to keep the child. But there is also nothing to fear if I decide to not to have him at this time. I have made my decision out of love: I have become aware that I do not know how to love myself, thus, I will be unable to love the child as he deserves it. Loving oneself after 26 years of not knowing or doing anything like it, can take some time to achieve and I need to be alone to achieve it. I am not in a position to take full responsibility of another human being at this time, since I can't yet take full responsibility of myself.

I know that I am not killing my child. I am merely breaking our contract and he will have another chance to return to this existence if he chooses so. I am extremely grateful about the guidance he has provided me, and trust me, this lesson I will keep with me for my life. I know that by doing this I have karma stacking up that I will have to work through one day. But all of this had to happen to open my eyes to how valuable my life is and how valuable I am and how I should always remember it.

And on a rather practical note, I feel sick these days, but I am not operating under hormones, since I know myself enough to know my behavioral patterns when I do (I have quite serious PMS issues etc.). Last week I have felt very calm and sure of what I am doing. I haven't had any drama in my head whatsoever, and I can be quite a drama queen sometimes.

On another rather practical note, you are not the only one who judges me about this decision. The gynaecologist I visited today was quite harsh on me too. But my family supports me, and that is a very big relief for me in this time. And I don't feel guilty or scared, reading your post, thus I know that I don't have those feelings in me and actually it confirms once more that my decision is right.

[Ninja]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

I don't believe anyone who has not had a child themselves has any right to offer you advice. I was pro choice until I had my child and now I thank God every day we never seriously considered abortion even though we had only been dating a year. It's easy to be pro choice when you haven't met your child yet, but make no mistake, you are stopping a life. This baby will never be born again. You will find a way if you have this baby. If you don't want the baby, there are many people who can't have children who will love you forever for having it. You created this being, you owe it to them to at least give them nine months of your life to give them a chance.

To anyone who's never had a child, I ask you to consider the fact that you do not have the experience to make this decision for someone else. Think about times when an experience transformed you into a totally opposite way of thinking. So much so, that when you try and change your friends minds, they cannot and even refuse to believe you. You've become enlightened in a way that they cannot possibly understand until they go through it. I cannot possibly explain the experience of having a child to you, but I can ask you to realize that if you did have the experience of having a child, you would definitely not take this decision as lightly as you are right now. I have never met a person who would ever consider having an abortion once they've had a child.

One more thing. When we found out we were having a baby, I was expressing my nervousness to an aquaintence I had know for a couple of years. I told him we were broke and I had no work and I wasn't sure I was ready, but we were going to have the baby anyway. He looked into my eyes with tears in his and he said, "We have been trying to have a child for years and we can't seem to make it happen. Please, give him to us. If you don't feel you can take care of him, give him to us." he then turned and walked away crying.

Who died and made you queen? She made the decision that was best for HER and you have no right to tell her otherwise. Having a baby does not come with instant wisdom and understanding of the universe and beyond. Just because it worked out for you (or you fooled yourself into believing it did, either will do), does not mean it will work for everyone else. And if you truly believe that those without children have no right to offer advice, then in my opinion, it just shows that you yourself ar far from being a real parent. Real parents are not arrogant and setting a bad example for their children. They will also teach their kids to read the thread first and reply later: she has already had the abortion done and is relieved about it.

[Angela]

You know, it's funny you mention that! A married couple friends of mine were absolutely desperate to have a child -- they were going through all kinds of hell with in-vitro, etc. -- they were really suffering. When I got pregnant, I talked to them about having them adopt my baby, and they turned me down flat. It turns out that all that suffering was not so much about the desire to raise a child, but to further their own genes. I know there are plenty of people who would love to adopt a baby not of their own loins, but still it surprised me how strong that urge to procreate can be; I don't have that urge myself.

I think what you really mean is: while people who have not had kids certainly have the right to offer advice, you recommend that advice be taken with the consideration that their knowledge is limited. I don't think you mean to come across as oppressive as that post sounded.

[Angela]

oh, p.s., that just made me think of a woman I know who had a child with a man who sounds much like mncz's bad beaux -- a beautiful daughter whom she adored and doted on.

One day I asked the mom, "Do you ever regret having that baby? Do you ever wish you'd had an abortion?" I thought for sure she was going to give me that peace-love-baby-mom look and say never! Instead she looked me straight in the eyes and replied: "Every day of my life."

[Ninja]

Originally Posted by Angela

You know, it's funny you mention that! A married couple friends of mine were absolutely desperate to have a child -- they were going through all kinds of hell with in-vitro, etc. -- they were really suffering. When I got pregnant, I talked to them about having them adopt my baby, and they turned me down flat. It turns out that all that suffering was not so much about the desire to raise a child, but to further their own genes. I know there are plenty of people who would love to adopt a baby not of their own loins, but still it surprised me how strong that urge to procreate can be; I don't have that urge myself.

I think what you really mean is: while people who have not had kids certainly have the right to offer advice, you recommend that advice be taken with the consideration that their knowledge is limited. I don't think you mean to come across as oppressive as that post sounded.

I always get annoyed at people who go through IVF but won't even consider adopting a child who is already here, suffering and hoping that maybe, someday, a loving family will adopt them. Someone elses genes aint good enough for ya?

To the topicstarter: please don't let any pro-lifers in disquise get to you. Your child is not dead! You cannot kill something that isn't alive yet. Easy as that. There will be another clump of cells available someday that can grow into a babybody for your child to move into. He or she will wait for you. I promise.

P.S. Said babybody will hopefully come from a father who's sperm wasnt mutilated by alcohol. It's a myth that only the mother's lifestyle has an affect on an unborn child. Daddy's bad habits can also hurt junior before he's even born!

[Dannyboy1]

I don't believe anyone who has not had a child themselves has any right to offer you advice. I was pro choice until I had my child and now I thank God every day we never seriously considered abortion even though we had only been dating a year. It's easy to be pro choice when you haven't met your child yet, but make no mistake, you are stopping a life. This baby will never be born again. You will find a way if you have this baby. If you don't want the baby, there are many people who can't have children who will love you forever for having it. You created this being, you owe it to them to at least give them nine months of your life to give them a chance.

To anyone who's never had a child, I ask you to consider the fact that you do not have the experience to make this decision for someone else. Think about times when an experience transformed you into a totally opposite way of thinking. So much so, that when you try and change your friends minds, they cannot and even refuse to believe you. You've become enlightened in a way that they cannot possibly understand until they go through it. I cannot possibly explain the experience of having a child to you, but I can ask you to realize that if you did have the experience of having a child, you would definitely not take this decision as lightly as you are right now. I have never met a person who would ever consider having an abortion once they've had a child.

One more thing. When we found out we were having a baby, I was expressing my nervousness to an aquaintence I had know for a couple of years. I told him we were broke and I had no work and I wasn't sure I was ready, but we were going to have the baby anyway. He looked into my eyes with tears in his and he said, "We have been trying to have a child for years and we can't seem to make it happen. Please, give him to us. If you don't feel you can take care of him, give him to us." he then turned and walked away crying.

Originally Posted by mncz

Thank you, Gozunn, I have considered this point of view for the most part of last week. This way of thinking was the reason why I could not make my mind up about it for so long.

I want you to understand that my decision is not one of fear. I do not fear my future with or without the child. As I stated before, there is nothing I should fear if I decide to keep the child. But there is also nothing to fear if I decide to not to have him at this time. I have made my decision out of love: I have become aware that I do not know how to love myself, thus, I will be unable to love the child as he deserves it. Loving oneself after 26 years of not knowing or doing anything like it, can take some time to achieve and I need to be alone to achieve it. I am not in a position to take full responsibility of another human being at this time, since I can't yet take full responsibility of myself.

I know that I am not killing my child. I am merely breaking our contract and he will have another chance to return to this existence if he chooses so. I am extremely grateful about the guidance he has provided me, and trust me, this lesson I will keep with me for my life. I know that by doing this I have karma stacking up that I will have to work through one day. But all of this had to happen to open my eyes to how valuable my life is and how valuable I am and how I should always remember it.

And on a rather practical note, I feel sick these days, but I am not operating under hormones, since I know myself enough to know my behavioral patterns when I do (I have quite serious PMS issues etc.). Last week I have felt very calm and sure of what I am doing. I haven't had any drama in my head whatsoever, and I can be quite a drama queen sometimes.

On another rather practical note, you are not the only one who judges me about this decision. The gynaecologist I visited today was quite harsh on me too. But my family supports me, and that is a very big relief for me in this time. And I don't feel guilty or scared, reading your post, thus I know that I don't have those feelings in me and actually it confirms once more that my decision is right.

[SunnKali]

Dannyboy - do you realize mncz has already had the abortion?? Seems like you didn't read through all the posts before posting yourself.

[Ninja]

Originally Posted by Angela

oh, p.s., that just made me think of a woman I know who had a child with a man who sounds much like mncz's bad beaux -- a beautiful daughter whom she adored and doted on.

One day I asked the mom, "Do you ever regret having that baby? Do you ever wish you'd had an abortion?" I thought for sure she was going to give me that peace-love-baby-mom look and say never! Instead she looked me straight in the eyes and replied: "Every day of my life."

Whoa...

Personally, I think many parents feel this way. They're just afraid to say it out loud, because to most people (especially other parents) "I wish I had an abortion", translates to "I'm going to leave junior in my car this weekend and feed his remains to the wolves".

I think this taboo is ridiculous. Why wouldn't it be possible to love your child, yet regret opting for parenthood? These taboos are dangerous: they chase desperate parents into hiding and make them feel alone, until one day, the parent can't take it anymore and hurts the child in a fit of frustration. You'd be suprised what sleeploss alone can do to a person...

These people should be encouraged to look for support, not to hide in shame until it's too late.

[Dannyboy1]

I haven't been in these forums many times. I didn't realize there were 3 pages. Obviously, it does no good for her to feel bad now. It's just sad to me that so many people who don't have kids think they know what they're talking about and people listen to them. I felt the way they felt once, but now I know better and I fault the media for making abortion so easy. If two people mistakenly get pregnant, they should be responsible for their actions and have the baby. If they don't want them, there are plenty of people who will raise them as their own. There's no excuse anymore. You just can't say, "I can't have this baby because it will screw up the rest of my life." You CAN say, "This baby will screw up my life for the nine months." And frankly, they should be held responsible for those nine months. It's sad that it's okay for people to have abortions so they won't be inconvenienced for nine months because they had consentual sex and accidentally got pregnant...

Originally Posted by SunnKali

Dannyboy - do you realize mncz has already had the abortion?? Seems like you didn't read through all the posts before posting yourself.

[Ninja]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

I haven't been in these forums many times. I didn't realize there were 3 pages. Obviously, it does no good for her to feel bad now. It's just sad to me that so many people who don't have kids think they know what they're talking about and people listen to them. I felt the way they felt once, but now I know better and I fault the media for making abortion so easy. If two people mistakenly get pregnant, they should be responsible for their actions and have the baby. If they don't want them, there are plenty of people who will raise them as their own. There's no excuse anymore. You just can't say, "I can't have this baby because it will screw up the rest of my life." You CAN say, "This baby will screw up my life for the nine months." And frankly, they should be held responsible for those nine months. It's sad that it's okay for people to have abortions so they won't be inconvenienced for nine months because they had consentual sex and accidentally got pregnant...

Yes, because children should be born as a punishment to the naughty, naughty woman who got herself pregnant.

And how can you even think you have a say in this? You haven't had children either. You impregnated a woman, but you never had to go through nine months of pregnancy or labor. According to your own post, you don't have a right to offer advice either. Get off your high horse already, put on some bigboy pants and accept the fact that thhis is a public forum where everyone is allowed to offer advice. Don't like it? Start a forum of your own.

[Erki]

Originally Posted by Ninja

And how can you even think you have a say in this? You haven't had children either. You impregnated a woman, but you never had to go through nine months of pregnancy or labor.

So men don't have children? They just have to pay for them? Right?

[Dannyboy1]

First of all, my wife completely agrees with me and she HAS gone through it all. Have you? Then don't tell me I don't know about pregnancy and labor because I know a hell of a lot more about it than you do. I know as much as a man can possibly know about it. I was there the whole time and I was in that delivery room catching my baby and cutting the chord. I accepted my responsibility to my child AND my wife. And, because this is a public forum, I have every right to express how I feel about what people write.

I never made a judgement that women who get pregnant are bad. You try and twist my words around because you can't control your emotions. I said people should be held responsible for their actions. I never said the word naughty and I never said punishment. I made a comparison so that people who don't have the experience might better understand. You know the risks when you have concentual sex. Accept the responsibility if you make a mistake. Both of you. Don't kill a child. Go through the pregnancy and let the child have a choice to live. You may learn something. After that, you have every right to give that child away. By the way, some women enjoy pregnancy.

Originally Posted by Ninja

Yes, because children should be born as a punishment to the naughty, naughty woman who got herself pregnant.

And how can you even think you have a say in this? You haven't had children either. You impregnated a woman, but you never had to go through nine months of pregnancy or labor. According to your own post, you don't have a right to offer advice either. Get off your high horse already, put on some bigboy pants and accept the fact that thhis is a public forum where everyone is allowed to offer advice. Don't like it? Start a forum of your own.

[Angela]

Actually, Dannyboy1, we actually do have the right to undergo abortion, at least in my part of the world. When you're talking about "rights", it looks like you're talking about moral rights, which vary among people, of course. If the majority agrees that an action is reprehensible, we outlaw it, and then people are held responsible (I would say "accountable"; I think you and I see responsibility a little differently). I'm not sure what the rights story is in ouor good friend mncz's part of the world, but it sounds like it's not an issue for her -- but the moral indignation of some people has been.

What I'm saying is: when you throw around *shoulds* at people, do you think they're going to change their minds about their own morals? You have a lot of opinions that have been activated by this touchy subject and you feel free to tell people what they *should* and *shouldn't* do. But do you think that will help you with your cause? I mean, don't you think shoulds just make people defensive and if anything, react against you? We're not going to buy into your shoulds merely because you tell us to.

You have every right to feel the way you do, and I can see that it's painful to you that people have abortions. I'm just suggesting you examine your communication style to see how you might better better achieve your aims. Abortion rights has always been a touchy subject around here (and everywhere else!) -- wouldn't you rather make a difference than add fuel to the fire?

[Dannyboy1]

I don't think we're talking about morals per say. I think we're talking about the rationalizations people are making to allow the stopping of a life that has started the process of growing into a human being. If it weren't a life, then you'd have nothing to stop. It's not a moral question, because we all agree murder is wrong. What we don't all agree on is that abortion is murder. So, it's really a question of the definition of a word. I'd like to take a poll of Americans and see just how many of these "pro-choice" people have ever given birth. Then, I'd like to take a poll of people who have given birth, including those who have given their children up for adoption, and see just how many of them are pro choice. My guess is the "pro-choice" people are mainly the ones who know nothing about child birth. And my wife and I have experienced first hand how people in high school and college are not really given a choice, they are given a hugely biased shove toward abortion, without any education on what that means. "Just do it and then you'll be able to go on with your life." My wife was sitting in planned parenthood and when she told the worker she was going to have the baby, she said, "Really? Are you sure? You know it's going to be hard in your situation." It's not pro choice in this country. It's pro abortion. And the people pushing it are people who are not educated on both sides of the issue.

Originally Posted by Angela

Actually, Dannyboy1, we actually do have the right to undergo abortion, at least in my part of the world. When you're talking about "rights", it looks like you're talking about moral rights, which vary among people, of course. If the majority agrees that an action is reprehensible, we outlaw it, and then people are held responsible (I would say "accountable"; I think you and I see responsibility a little differently). I'm not sure what the rights story is in ouor good friend mncz's part of the world, but it sounds like it's not an issue for her -- but the moral indignation of some people has been.

What I'm saying is: when you throw around *shoulds* at people, do you think they're going to change their minds about their own morals? You have a lot of opinions that have been activated by this touchy subject and you feel free to tell people what they *should* and *shouldn't* do. But do you think that will help you with your cause? I mean, don't you think shoulds just make people defensive and if anything, react against you? We're not going to buy into your shoulds merely because you tell us to.

You have every right to feel the way you do, and I can see that it's painful to you that people have abortions. I'm just suggesting you examine your communication style to see how you might better better achieve your aims. Abortion rights has always been a touchy subject around here (and everywhere else!) -- wouldn't you rather make a difference than add fuel to the fire?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

You are making some very sweeping generalizations about the majority of women in this country based on one conversation your wife had in a clinic and a few anecdotal stories of your first hand experiences with high school and college women.

I have opposing anecdotal evidence from my own experience. So which of us speaks for the majority of people in this country? I wonder especially at how you can presume to say that people who are pro-choice are actually pro-abortion. I myself support a woman's right to chose, but would also never have an abortion myself. In my own circle of friends the same is true of each of us to a person. And every pro-lifer I know still believes we all desire to murder as many babies as possible. In fact, I've never met anyone who holds that view.

Your asking for a huge suspension of disbelief with absolutely no evidence to back it up.

Not many people are very educated on many of the issues surrounding sex and pregnancy considering our abstinance based "sex education" in this country.

You can't have it both ways!

[Dannyboy1]

I didn't know when I posted this that she had already had the abortion and I don't think she should not feel bad and move on with her life like it was nothing, because it wasn't nothing. That's why people with miscarriages go through so much pain. By your standards it was never a child, so their pain is imaginary. I'd like to see you give your opinions to them face to face. I hope she gets through this and has a wonderful life, but I hope she becomes more educated about child birth.

As far as your opinions, you are not a parent, you've never read a book on parenting, you've never been to a birth, so your opinions on my parenting are completely ignorant on every level. I have no ill will toward you, but you talking about parenting is like Paris Hilton talking about rocket design.

Originally Posted by Ninja

Who died and made you queen? She made the decision that was best for HER and you have no right to tell her otherwise. Having a baby does not come with instant wisdom and understanding of the universe and beyond. Just because it worked out for you (or you fooled yourself into believing it did, either will do), does not mean it will work for everyone else. And if you truly believe that those without children have no right to offer advice, then in my opinion, it just shows that you yourself ar far from being a real parent. Real parents are not arrogant and setting a bad example for their children. They will also teach their kids to read the thread first and reply later: she has already had the abortion done and is relieved about it.

[Dannyboy1]

Actually, they're not really that sweeping. Since then, my wife has done a lot of research into it, including questioning pregnant women about their experiences and it's quite an epidemic. I guarantee you'll never go in saying you're thinking about an abortion and get this response, "You should have the child." You will hear the latter, though.

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

You are making some very sweeping generalizations about the majority of women in this country based on one conversation your wife had in a clinic and a few anecdotal stories of your first hand experiences with high school and college women.

I have opposing anecdotal evidence from my own experience. So which of us speaks for the majority of people in this country? I wonder especially at how you can presume to say that people who are pro-choice are actually pro-abortion. I myself support a woman's right to chose, but would also never have an abortion myself. In my own circle of friends the same is true of each of us to a person. And every pro-lifer I know still believes we all desire to murder as many babies as possible. In fact, I've never met anyone who holds that view.

Your asking for a huge suspension of disbelief with absolutely no evidence to back it up.

Not many people are very educated on many of the issues surrounding sex and pregnancy considering our abstinance based "sex education" in this country.

You can't have it both ways!

[mncz]

Dannyboy, thanks for your opinion, it is actually quite common in society and I am not surprised by it the slightest.

To offer my opinion, I would like to set some points here:

1. As much as you have been near your wife during her pregnancy, which is admirable and a great thing to do, you can't say that you know how it feels. You are not the one vomiting every day, feeling like your head was stuffed with murky stuff for months, like your feet were going to kill you, not being able to sleep on your tummy, you don't have the hurting back and need to urinate 3 times an hour during the last month of pregnancy. And that is not counting the birthing pain itself.

You cannot possibly know how it feels to have the most tender part of your flesh brutally torn to shreds during childbirth, if the baby is too big for his mother. You do not have to endure the stitches and pain afterwards, all the time needing to feed the baby one time per 3 hours, enduring painful breasts, hardened milk ducts and fissured nipples.

You have seen it, but you can never say that you know how it feels. Plus, feelings in pregnancy vary greatly from woman to woman. My first almost two months of pregnancy were quite unpleasant. I was unable to work, I felt sick all the time (like you want to throw up, but can't do it yet), I womited from time to time, my energy levels were sub-zero. When I talked to my mom about how she had felt, she said she had had no unpleasant feelings during her pregnancies at all. I also know a woman who vomited every single day of her pregnancy. It can be very different for each of us.

2. All the talk against caesar-section or anesthesy in cases when it is obvious that the labor will be hard and painful is just pure, extremal male hypocrisy. Believe it or not, hard labor happens to women on a daily basis. Babies settle in womb in the wrong way or just grow too big for their mothers to be born naturally. The birthing path does not open widely enough. Women have had eye surgery and the changes in eye pressure can damage their sight permanently (my sister is in the high-risk group for this). The increase of the count of caesar sections can only partially be attributed to the vanity of doctors or mothers. Most of it can be attributed to the fact that doctors have finally understood that women should not be put to suffering like animals just because someone has said that it is the right thing to do. You want to feel how a mother feels after she has given natural birth to too big a baby? Tear your perineum to shreds with a dull knife and then walk around until it heals. Remember to sleep not more than 2 hours 3 times a day. Try it, its fun! And then you will have the right to say that you know how a woman feels. Of course, if a woman can have natural birth, she should do it. But if her suffering can be relieved by the advances of medicine, it should be done, and immediately, just because it can be done, and no morals have the right to make her suffer unnecessary.

3. Every woman has the final, ultimate right to choose whether she continues with her pregnancy or not. It is her choice. She will be the one responsible for that. Her life will be changed forever because of this choice. Noone has the right to tell anyone else what they should do with their lives. Noone has the right to judge anyone else. What do you know of the women who have chosen abortion? Have you walked a minute in their shoes? Do you know all the intricate details of their biography that get involved when making this, possibly the hardest, decision of their lives? Will you live their life after their decision?

4. We all are here to learn. We learn through our choices. We put our hands in fire to see if it burns. We get our experience through choices. If a part of these choices is denied, the lessons can't be learned. Thus they will be learned in a harder, more painful way somewhere else. When too many importan choices are denied to large groups of people, revolutions and wars occur, because lessons have to be learned. Every single person walking this Earth is unique. They have unique reasons for being here and thus they need to make their own unique choices. Noone else can tell them what to do, since everyone is different from everyone else. All we can do to those we have met on our journeys is to offer our love, our support, our (limited) understanding and (personal) advice. Thats it. It is us who don't have the rights to judge and moralise. It is every persons right to have all their choices present to them.

The reasons why I did not opt for adoption are discussed earlier in this thread. Trust me, for my baby it is 100 times better to never be born (or to be born later when I am ready for him and able to provide a loving family, depending on your beliefs. I resonate with what Ninja said that the soul of my child is intact and that if he chooses so, he will settle with me when I have the family he truly deserves) than to be given away for adoption in this country.

5. I was pro-life before I was faced with my choice to keep a baby or not (as I wrote in my first post). I would never have thought that I could opt for abortion before I actually got pregnant. I have never been endorsed to do it, on the contrary, the attitude towards women who opt for it here is quite cruel, as I have described. Everyone who was not related to me said that I should have the baby, that it was the right thing to do. Every single person. My family was completely neutral in the process. When I first told them that I intend to keep the baby, they were supportive. They never said "oh, but have you thought that you can just have it cut out of you and go on with your life"? I thought about it for 5 weeks, every day, every hour. I meditated. I seeked counsel and advice. I did read 2 books and an entire forum on pregnancy, childbirth and children upbringing. I talked to other women whom I know have been in this situation. I read dozens of articles on the internet. I am as much educated about child birth as anyone can possibly be. And I had no fear. I was tired, sick, sad at times, but I had no fear of future and no fear of any of my choices. And I chose what is best for myself, because I have come to ultimately believe that every person should do the best for themselves and only THEN they are able to give something to others. What thirst can you quench from a dry well?

6. I am not going with my life as if the abortion was nothing. It has changed my life completely and forever. It has been the biggest, most eye-opening and amazing lesson ever. I am grateful for this experience. There is no other way I could have learned what I have learned during this time.

But everyone has their rights to hold on to their opinions. It is part of their path of life. I do not judge anyone who has an opinion radically different from mine. It is dictated by their experiences, their fears, their beliefs, their history and their hopes. Who am I to deny it to them? Whenever someone questions me, I can see my beliefs in new light, question them myself, gain my answers and advance. Whenever someone supports me, I can draw strenght and love in my life. And that is all there is to it. And I am thankful for both.

PS part of this is written to answer Danny's posts in the other, new unexpected pregnancy thread to keep things simple.

[mncz]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

I have never met a person who would ever consider having an abortion once they've had a child.

I was in fact in one hospital room with a woman who has 2 children and had opted to have abortion for her third baby, since she had decided that she will be unable to care for him emotionally and financially at this time. So it does happen.

[Michael45]

Not to be rude or anything.......... but it amuses me to see women throw the pregnancy/pain thing in mens faces and try to tell them they have no clue how it feels...........
I'll gladly trade you my back for three births any day.............

[mncz]

Well, I am not claiming that I know how bad your back pain feels and that nevertheless you should be left in this pain without medication or surgery since medication and surgery is unnatural and nature has intended to put you in this pain and thus it should remain that way. Yet that is precisely what some people do, when discussing the questions of abortion/caesar section/anesthesy.

My best wishes for your healing. I hope that you will get better soon.

[Erki]

What does the pain have to do with this thread? And anti-caesarean and medication? By all means, if it makes it safer, go for it.

Urgh, all this talk about the pain (of childbirth) depresses me (as always). So what do I have to do? Go and find some way to torture myself to near death and then say "I know how big big pain feels too". Are women better than men because they feel more pain in their lives? I guess they are...
And ultimately, why the hell is childbirth so excruciating anyway? Like, naturally made to be painful. I could understand if it was an accident or if indeed there was something wrong with the baby or mother - but even then why is it that "painful births are a commonplace thing"? It shouldn't be that way. It's wrong. But now I'm just repeating myself.

I have to second mncz that you can study everything about childbirth and upbringing of them and all that, but ultimately it's all just book knowledge. You can't ever feel it - and you can't feel the anxiety of your life "taken away" from you, or at least changed, either. You have ways to escape the situation, a woman can't escape her body. [In a way it's real bad again, as you are always second to woman and as your investment is minute compared to the woman's, you are always doomed to be a lesser parent(actually a lesser person too..)].

I personally am pro mindful decisions.

[Joely]

Originally Posted by Erki

I personally am pro mindful decisions.

I think I might adopt that as my new attitude to this whole thing. D'you mind? I think it's an excellent attitude to have.

[Erki]

Originally Posted by Joely

I think I might adopt that as my new attitude to this whole thing. D'you mind? I think it's an excellent attitude to have.

No, I don't mind at all. You can have it for free.

[mncz]

Originally Posted by Erki

What does the pain have to do with this thread? And anti-caesarean and medication? By all means, if it makes it safer, go for it.
Urgh, all this talk about the pain (of childbirth) depresses me (as always). So what do I have to do? Go and find some way to torture myself to near death and then say "I know how big big pain feels too". Are women better than men because they feel more pain in their lives? I guess they are...
And ultimately, why the hell is childbirth so excruciating anyway? Like, naturally made to be painful. I could understand if it was an accident or if indeed there was something wrong with the baby or mother - but even then why is it that "painful births are a commonplace thing"? It shouldn't be that way. It's wrong. But now I'm just repeating myself.

I am sorry, I messed this up a bit by answering to one person's different posts in different, yet topically related threads. Here is the other one: Pregnant & Confused!!! . My bad.

Let me improve my points. I consider pain to be a natural part of our lives. But I believe that noone else has the right to say they know how the person in pain feels or to deny help if one is available.

I am not implying that women are better than men in any way, and I am sorry if I came accross like that. Everyone has their burdens to carry. Men have their own pain, their own hard choices, their own dramas. We are equal. It's just so that here we are discussing the decision that happens to women. It does not mean that men are inferior because they do not have it. It does not mean that men have no problems. It's just that right now focus is on a women problem. What I am implying that we should never judge other people's decisions, no matter if it is a man or a woman, since we do not know their lives and reasons.

I am sorry, if my points came over in the wrong way, sometimes I am unable to express myself in a properly neutral manner as I should.

[Erki]

Originally Posted by mncz

Everyone has their burdens to carry. Men have their own pain, their own hard choices, their own dramas.

Like what? I live a life so pain free that it's almost painful..

Originally Posted by mncz

What I am implying that we should never judge other people's decisions, no matter if it is a man or a woman, since we do not know their lives and reasons.

I thoroughly agree with you. You can never know how the other person (really) feels. You have no right to judge her/him. S/he's only doing what s/he finds the best thing to do in her current situation. Even if the onlookers can see what she does as wrong, then I'm sure she herself doesn't think "now, good, let's do the wrong thing!"*

Originally Posted by mncz

I am sorry, if my points came over in the wrong way, sometimes I am unable to express myself in a properly neutral manner as I should.

No worries. I have my own pet issues in this area so I get a bit touchy...

*even if a person is consciously doing the "wrong thing" - harming himself on will - then that's still what he finds best for himself at that moment. It's very subjective.

[dancer]

Mncz, I admire your courage and wisdom and send you hugs and love.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by dancer

Mncz, I admire your courage and wisdom and send you hugs and love.

me too