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01-29-2008, 04:17 PM
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 Statikkk, I feel for you, I can understand your fear very well. My mother used to control me with emotional blackmailing and a few other nice manipulative techniques. When I first learned to defend myself against it and started reacting differently, I was scared to death. When you do something completely new, well you don't know how the other one will react, and that's scary. I even feared she could hit me, or kill herself, or run away, such dramatic things, even though I knew perfectly well she wouldn't do it. When you have a fixed pattern in a relationship, and then one of the two suddenly breaks out of that pattern, the whole relationship has to be redefined, and you don't know how the new one will be. The Unknown is scary  Congratulations for breaking out  I agree with Angela's points. She doesn't make you feel anything, it's you alone, you choose your feelings. It looks like you two give each other a huuuuge amount of power above your emotions. Maybe it would be helpful if you both understand that your feelings are alone your own responsibility. Reading your post, I also thought that the two of you don't really listen to each other, or at least don't take what the other one feels seriously. Maybe a solution would be not to take her yelling and reproaches as a personal attack but just see it as an unfortunate way to express herself. She's not only yelling, she's also crying, to me she seems to feel helpless. Maybe she's never learned to deal with her emotions better than that. One way you could help her would be to listen to what she feels. I know that's not easy when she's yelling at you, and I encourage you not to tolerate such a disrespectful behavior. But maybe there's a way to make her feel more understood? Maybe talk about your feelings when she's in a good mood? I don't know.
__________________ Magical Chest - I'm Generating Hardcore Harmony      |
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01-29-2008, 04:59 PM
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I suggest telling her you are very sorry that you haven't really been listening and hearing her well, inviting her to tell you what's going on for her, and telling her that you are 100% committed to getting what it is that she's saying. Feed back to her what she's saying to you, as if you were the one saying and feeling it. Ask her if she believes you've *gotten it* the way she wants it to be gotten. Really hear her. Don't try to justify or defend yourself, or get your point across. Try to understand her first, before you make yourself understood. I'll bet you're afraid to do that, because you are predicting that she'll go off like a ton of TNT. And I invite you to let go of your predictions and assumptions about what she'll do. If she does get upset or yells, maintain your commitment to really getting what she has to say, even during her upset. The reason I think it's so important for YOU to get what SHE has to say is that I think you've got a big filter up in your listening. If you were to make a decision about what to do in your relationship, you would later on realize that you had filtered out something important, and you might feel shaky or doubtful about your position. As cdn2wheeler says, be a Teacher, a Leader, a Protector, and a Provider, and see how being those things transforms your conversation with your wife. |
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01-29-2008, 06:22 PM
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| Gotcha - that does seem like the next step. That will be difficult though. The stress and resentment that has built up, in so many different areas of our relationship, will make it difficult to give her that level of respect. I can definitely do it though. It's sad... if I could snap my fingers and go back to the day before we met, and never have any of this unfold, I would do it in a heartbeat. Having to do it with the reality of guilt, doubt, etc. makes it 100X more difficult. |
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01-29-2008, 06:36 PM
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Remember, you would like her to let go of her bad feelings and respect you. Is it so much to ask of yourself that you also let go of your bad feelings and generate respect for her? Are you willing to be what you want to see? One thing you might do is to build a vision of the relationship you'd like to have with her, and share that vision with her. Ask her what her vision is, and discuss how you can both get what you want, or something better. The third synergistic solution! It's always wonderful. As aspiring to clarity says, it's more effective to go towards a positive than to try to run away from a negative. |
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01-29-2008, 07:49 PM
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Statikkk, I am going to put myself out there big time here. As I've been following this thread, I had the very painful realization that I embody quite a few of the qualities that you've described about your wife. If you have seen my thread "I could use your support and encouragement right now" you will know that my boyfriend broke up with me. It would take a lot more space than I have here to rehash the whole shebang for you, but despite the fact that he is making steps to change a few things in himself, work on his anger issues and become self-sufficient I have to admit now that my behavior also contributed to this break up. I've been lying to myself and my friends here when I've made this completely about him. And I am sorry for that. See, there were a lot of things that he did that I felt justified my outbursts and fairly consistent anger at him. While I have never been physically abusive and tend to get along well with his family, I have also been manipulative and emotionally abusive. We both were at times. And I often could see myself reacting disproportionately to something he did or said, or some perceived slight by one of his friends or family members. I too knew that I had some things to change. I believe that I have made some progress, but not enough. I allowed myself for a long time to believe that he deserved my wrath for treating me badly. And he in turn shut me out and called me crazy which only made me more hurt and suspicious. I am not proud of making mountains out of molehills or the ways I can see now that I hurt him. It may seem hard to believe but my love for him is very deep and very real. I can see how hard it was for him to feel like he had to be on guard constantly. He would keep things from me to avoid conflict and I felt very betrayed. It wasn't a fun way to live for either of us. I know where this painful habit of mine came from. I am holding onto a lot of pain from the past and a lot of beliefs about what happens in relationships. Such as: if you don't hold tightly to someone they will leave you, I am not worthy of being in a happy relationship, everyone betrays it's only a matter of time. I feel like I was testing, subconsciously of course, to see if he loved me enough to stay. I thought he didn't love me when he told me I was being ridiculous or making things mean more than they did. I wanted him to understand how much pain I was in and how much I needed him, but I failed to give him the courtesy of trying to understand him. I feel like I am gaining a lot of insight as I read your posts and I am thankful that you have come here to share your story and all I am learning from you. Now, he is no saint. Both of us could probably answer yes to a number of the questions Lola posted about abusive relationships. I am saddened to think that I may not get the chance to make things right with him. I too said that I could see this was an issue and I did try to work on it, but I wasn't consistently successful. He would remind me of my promise to work on things and I would feel even worse because it sometimes felt like I had no control over what was happening. I would sometimes feel like I was standing outside of myself thinking that I was crazy too! There were quite a few things we each saw about ourselves that were hindering our relationship. Both of us were trying unsuccesfully to fix them, probably because we still let the blame fall on the other for our actions. I don't know what is causing your wife to act out in this way, but I will say that if she is anything like me it is a great deal of fear and pain. I feel like I am at a point now where if my ex was willing, I would be able to consciously change the behaviors that brought us here. It might be best for us to be apart, maybe too much damage has been done. There is resentment on both sides. When I look at it from another perspective, I can see that he did/does love me but was also very frustrated and exhausted. He had similar feelings of guilt for leaving because of his love for me and the fact that he didn't like to see me hurting. And I am understanding all of it much better now. I was also hurt and frustrated. It's not easy to sort it all out! When things were good they were so fantastic: love, affection, laughs, fun times. But when they were bad, oh boy! I am sorry this is so long and kind of jumbled. I am trying to make sense of it all as I am just now processing it. I am hoping it will give you some insight or some perspective. It doesn't absolve your wife of her responsibility for herself for you to understand her. I hope that you are both able to take 100% responsibility and create a life you love whether it be together or separate. It took my boyfriend leaving and this thread to feel the full impact of my actions. I would love to have another chance with him, but even if I never do, I have learned so much from being with him and I am thankful for what we had. We have been able to stay friends. We both still love and miss each other. All my best to you and good luck. Last edited by {aspiring_to_clarity} : 01-29-2008 at 07:57 PM. Reason: Added a couple of thoughts. |
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01-29-2008, 07:53 PM
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| And I wanted to add that everyone who has responded to this thread has given me invaluable tools to move forward as well. I am so thankful that you decided to post Statikkk. I bet this thread will be very helpful for a lot of people. |
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01-29-2008, 09:32 PM
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| Full disclosure: I have not read this entire thread, and apologize if I am repeating things others have said. My wife was the same way in the beginning... and I knew that I would not be able to sit down and talk with her about it because I knew that I would get 10-20 seconds in, and the world would explode, etc. So I wrote her a letter explaining what attracted me to her, why I loved her, etc. And then what I didn't like, what I felt needed to change, and why I wrote it down instead of telling her. I finished with "We can talk about this when I get home, or when you feel you are ready." I got home, and she was not there. The next day, I got a call from her mother that she was there. About two days later, she came home, and we discussed it. At the time, we were married for about six months. we're still married 10 years later, and things are great. One thing that you might consider (and she'll likely fly off the handle when you mention it) is that it might be a hormonal imbalance, and not entirely "her fault." |
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01-29-2008, 09:41 PM
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| Statikk, Manipulation is the hallmark of BPD. Trust me when I say - it's totally UN-intentional. It's just that the emptiness is so overwhelming that survival mode kicks in. If she indeed has borderline - then I will respectfully disagree with everyone here and say - IT'S NOT YOU. She is mentally ill. Not saying you're perfect, but her reactions are so extreme. It's her illness talking. The best thing you can do: encourage her, in every way, to get into DBT. I don't know where you live, but I'm sure you can do an internet search for groups or therapists. DBT is sort of like zen/cognitive-behavioral therapy mixed into one. You do very practical exercises, and have homework to learn self-awareness, detachment, and coping skills. EFT has made the most impact on my BPD. I can't even begin to describe how much I've changed in a year. I really can't recommend it enough. I also recommend you buy every book about BPD off amazon. Read them together. She may be relieved to know that she's not alone (I certainly was!). In the meantime, maintain very strong boundaries for yourself. This is her battle to fight, not yours. Some people with BPD play victim, and will never get better. Some people (like me) are desperate to get better. If your wife shows victim mentality, then I highly suggest you consider leaving her. Because, BPD is so challenging, that if she isn't motivated to be become better, then she never will. BPD requires an incredible level of self-awareness and surrender. |
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01-29-2008, 10:15 PM
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| I know I would. Hello HDPs! But really, uber, I see what you mean (and I don't disagree with you about your advice or want to make you feel bad), but until and unless she is ready to really accept how she's been being I think it would serve to make things worse. I mean, you have decided for yourself to work on this as a recognized problem for you (awesome, btw! -- we should start a club or something), but I don't know if she is there yet. I think it would have a similar effect to him saying that her reason for being upset is petty, or like Doku said that she is hormonal. I know that one went over real well with me .I am just thinking that right now it would serve to entrench her in her position. |
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01-29-2008, 10:37 PM
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| I would be very cautious about using the Borderline label - do not make such a diagnosis yourself. The problem is that BPD conveniently explains all the behaviors you have described, but so do a great number of other personality disorders. And many of those behaviors are present in people who are perfectly fine. Hence, observing a set behaviors in someone does not automatically imply that the person is suffering from the closest matching disorder. The danger is in assuming that it is BPD or MD or whatever, when it really is something else entirely and then leaving that something else untreated. If you have sufficient reason to suspect something is wrong, seek help from trained professionals and let them make a proper diagnosis.
__________________ Jim Offerman ~ music that moves you blog - twitter - free music - join the fan club! |
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01-29-2008, 10:40 PM
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| thank you for this post! this describes myrelationship with my ex exactly. We broke up 5 weeks ago. funny I read this now, he just called because he was missing me- (and I was missing him alot too, so I was glad) but after 5 min of loving conversation again came a 20 min monolouge of his yelling and blaming. Again I felt so frustrated that I couldnt make him happy, or simply comunicate. After which came about 10 sweet sms's asking if he can come to bed with me tonight. Although I was tempted (theres a big storm here tonight), Finally I wrote Id like to move on with my life please lets not be in touch for a while. I am proud of myself, its not easy for me to say NO. I dont know, Statikk, maybe its workable, I almost believe it is. but for me, I agree with Angela, why take any action, let alone a truckload of effort, when it's not part of living a life you love? We certainly don't need to. My ex also has so many great qualities I want in a man, but I mostly want to live in peace, which we didnt manage to do. I know I can find someone who isnt so HD. I found it impossible to build something with him, he was never voilent, but if he would get hurt, he would get up and leave for 3 days(which was about once a month), and I was constantly watching what I would say, and there were subjects I couldnt mention at all. here, on this post, Ive noticed that this is abusive behavior. |
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01-30-2008, 01:16 AM
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| I am definitely glad that I started, and so many people supported, this thread. It sounds like it has been helpful for many people and it's exactly what was needed for me at least. Danas what you just said really struck me - " mostly want to live in peace, which we didnt manage to do." This is a good point. I have always been a person who has strived for a life of inner peace and outer harmony in any relationship I am in, right down to the lady I buy coffee from in the morning. Unfortunately my wife is not like this - peace does not seem to be a concern for her. Maybe it is, but I would never guess that. Her primary concerns are moreso about being "true" and "real", at any relationship cost. Even if all of our other issues were not there, this is a fundamental difference that always keeps us on different paths. Thinking long term, it almost makes no sense at all to pursue a rship with someone who is on such a different path. It just seems sad that I was not able to identify this before we got engaged. I can safely say I was much less critical of peoples attributes then, and left a lot of "wiggle room" with respect to understanding how two people can fit together. I am glad you feel you are doing the right thing and have found inner peace as a result of your difficult decisions. Amazing. Good for you. |
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01-30-2008, 06:27 AM
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I loved him, he loved me and there was alot of attraction between us, but last night was the first time I felt 100% that I made the right choice. As he was yelling I felt a pain in my chest growing, and I realised that I felt this pain so often with him in these situations where he is blaming me. I realised that if I decided to stay with him, it would not be good for my health, I believe this is how fatal diseases start to develop. Quote:
In my view it is most impoartant not to betray ourselves, staying "loyal" to others while betraying ourselves is the worsed form of betrayal. BTW almost everytime I start a relationship I have a dream that kind of sums up the relationship. Over a year ago, when we first met, after a nice romantic evening on the beach, I had a dream which at the time I didnt understand, I dreamt of a phone conversation where he is yelling and yelling and I put the phone down to go do other things, and then I get back to the phone and he is still yelling. So I guess my intuition knew, but it took me a while to listen to it.... |
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01-30-2008, 01:47 PM
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| Bah, I feel like I failed last night. I fully planned to come home after work and have a calm, open discussion with her about everything, including generously listening to her feelings and what is bothering her. When I got home she wasn't there, and by the time she came home I was too tired [and maybe just not ready] to talk. So we didn't say a word to each other, and nothing has changed. The only thing that has changed is the same thing that always does after one of these hostility/happiness/hostility/happiness cycles. After my initial despair, frustration, anger and concern for my future, I start feeling sad for her, and I feel her sadness. This sucks because this is exactly what keeps the cycle going - my need to have everyone happy [even at my own expense] and the hope that the cycle is now ending. |
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01-30-2008, 02:50 PM
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| Statikkk, I'm sorry if my post comes across as nagging but I can't help getting a diffuse feeling that you still don't take full responsibility. Quote:
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this is all your fault. It's not about fault at all. I'm not saying either that the whole situation is your sole responsibility. What I'm saying is that how you feel is your sole and entire responsibility. By seeing yourself as a victim of your wife or of circumstances or of your previous lack of knowledge or of whatever outside of yourself right now, you willingly give the power over your own emotions away! But you have this power. You can choose, right now, how you feel. How to do that? Well, by deliberately thinking thoughts that make you feel the way you want to feel. Try it: choose a thought that feels good when you think it. Something nice that makes you feel better. For example "I love feeling harmonious". Concentrate on this thought for about a minute. Do you notice how you feel better? Now choose some crappy thought, like "I'm worthless" or "She's going to drive me crazy". Concentrate on that one for about a minute. Can you feel how draining that is?So when she yells at you, try not to react instantaneously. Observe what you're thinking. Is that something like "Oh no, not that again, she's driving me crazy!" ? Change the thought in "Oh, she seems to be in pain. What is she trying to tell me?" and then in "I want us to be happy together" and then in "I love her, she's wonderful"  Your wife's issues burden the relationship for sure. And maybe you're really not that a good match for each other. Maybe it would be a very wise decision to leave her indeed. But what I would like you to understand is that she is not the one who makes you feel bad. It's yourself. You picture yourself as a victim. But you are not a victim, you create your own feelings. If you leave her now, and don't commit to take 100% responsibility for your feelings, it will be useless. You won't learn anything and your next relationship will be the same kind as this one. Maybe she won't yell, but she'll have the same power to make you feel bad - cause you'll give it to her. If you make yourself such an easy victim, you'll attract the matching people. Stop behaving like a victim and she'll either disappear from your life, or stop behaving like an abuser by herself (after a phase of reorientation). Quote:
I wish the two of you all the best and hope I didn't hit on you too harshly! </nagging>
__________________ Magical Chest - I'm Generating Hardcore Harmony |
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01-30-2008, 02:55 PM
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 Oh, I know what would help you: read Ask and it is Given
__________________ Magical Chest - I'm Generating Hardcore Harmony |
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01-30-2008, 03:25 PM
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| Rose of Cairo, I fully agree that I must take responsibility for my feelings and reactions, but does that preclude me from also taking responsibility for my actions? I find this a bit confusing in your replies - you are right that how I feel now is completely up to me, and that how I felt then is completely up to me. But to me it feels like you are suggesting that responsibility for feelings is more important than responsibility for action. Lets say I decide to go on a roller coaster, and I am deathly afraid of roller coasters. At the end of the experience I think "that was horrible, I should have known better", yet during the ride I took responsibility for the fear and tried to reason that there is nothing to fear but fear itself. At the end, am I shunning responsibility by saying "I should have known better, why didn't I think that through"? Maybe I'm not fully understanding you, but I have trouble with accepting such an all-encompassing view of responsibility. |
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01-30-2008, 04:07 PM
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| I'm sorry, I'm afraid I'm not completely understanding you right now. Quote:
But no, I'm not saying you should not take responsibility for your actions. I don't know why you're thinking that.  And yes, of course learning from your mistakes is good. I'm not saying anything against that. Quote:
This is not what I mean. What I mean is that taking responsibility is realizing that yo |