romantic love and attachment

[wolfgang]

There have been users of this forum saying it's possible to fall in love and not suffer it it falls apart. That attachment to an outcome being a certain way is what sets up the heartache, if things fall apart. There was also the idea that there is a fear approach to romantic love that makes people less able to express their love feelings. That it is better to just let the feelings out and ditch the fear of how the relationship will go. That ditching the fear is done with acceptance and freedom of the other person.

I was thinking about these ideas and hearing words like commitment and expectations and trust. It seems that if you have expectations and those expectations fall apart - you get hurt. I think the expectations in a courting phase do generate fear because it's still unknown how the relationship will pan out. But one might start projecting and wishing for the best to happen. The fear is there to remind us to not set ourselves up with expectations that are ahead of the relationship that is just starting. Maybe that's it. If there is a fear, that's a signal that you are getting ahead of the real state of the relationship. What do you think?

Then once there is a commitment there are expectations. These expectations are things like "I expect us to be exclusive sexually". Or "I expect you to call if you don't come home for dinner". Sometimes these contracts or expectations are verbally made. Or commitments can be non-verbal contracts that get set up becuase the couple has done the same thing and there's an expectation that same thing will happen again, as creatures of habit. So these expectations are fine since they are realistic. Now if one side gives up or wants something else - these expectations get ditched and the other side will have to grieve. Heartache is there. How is it to be avoided?

Then there's a trust level. When trusting the other to keep the expectations that do exist then there's not worries, not fear. However, if the trust is low, then worries abound because you can never be sure what expectations might be pulled out from under you.

Commitment is kind of like trust of the couple. Expectations are habits or agreements that come with commitments.

[Lola]

First, I'm issuing a disclaimer because I haven't actually practiced this IRL yet. We'll have to see how I do with the concept next time I fall in love as there hasn't been any (serious) romantic love in my life since learning all this. (I promise to report back!) I have successfully practiced a similar *outcome detachment* as it applies to my kids.

What I get out of the concept of loving without attachment is that I am fully complete, whole and free, in and of myself. As such, the addition of another person is not necessary to "complete me" (as Jerry Maguire said), nor will the loss of that other person delete anything that is me.

So to achieve this, when I'm dating - I don't project into the future as to how the relationship may play out. When I'm in a committed relationship or married, I don't project into the future as to how the relationship may play out. What I do is live in the Now. Revel in the love, joy, companionship of each moment. Then, if and when it passes, I realease it, acknowledging that it was what it was when it was. Granted, you're right that this is hard to do, but a desirable approach, IMO.

With this approach, there is no fear of rejection or abandonment or failure because I cannot be rejected, abandoned or viewed as a failure by my Self who is complete, whole and free. Could there be sadness and grief at the transition? Heartbreak, even? Sure. But not at the loss of a complete me.

It's not that I don't care about the relationship or about my partner, it's that I don't have to have it happen a specific way to be ok.

As far as trust is concerned, I think that comes into play in a relationship not as me trusting the other person, nor even as trust of the couple, but trust in myself. Trust that no matter how this plays out, I will be whole and complete.

[Angela]

Agreed. Expectations creep in, of course; and I think it really pays off in a loving long-term mutually beneficial relationship (and in life, too!) if you examine your expectations, rather than letting them run you.

One thing in particular to watch yourself for: expectations that have you feeling owed. (Like, "she owes it to me to remain sexually faithful" or "he owes me a certain amount of attention and affection each day.") Nobody owes you anything! That's a pretty hard concept, I know, because we are trained since childhood to nurture our entitlements. But I repeat: nobody owes you anything.

And you don't owe anyone else, either. You make a choice in each new moment. That choice may involve keeping your word (or not) or adhering to an agreement (or not) -- that is, having integrity (or not). But you don't owe it to anyone to behave with integrity -- not even yourself. It's a gift you give yourself freely, a creative act that's part of generating a life you love.

Holding on to a sense of owing or being owed sucks the freedom, and therefore the love, right out of the space of any relationship.

[Lola]

I think I'll start a 30 day Trial -

Falling in Love With No Attachment To The Outcome



The next guy I go out with better look out!

[Rose of Cairo]

How about having no expectations? When you have no expectations, you don't get hurt. Everything the other person gives you is a wonderful gift that makes you happy, while s/he feels free. Why are these expectations that important to you? And why do you get hurt when they are not met in the first place?

I think when you're in love, it falls apart and you get hurt, that's because you think something like "if I tell her that I love her, and she doesn't love me, <insert some horrible catastrophe here>." But why should you feel bad just because she's not in love with you?

It's not mutual? So what? It's wonderful all the same.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

There have been users of this forum saying it's possible to fall in love and not suffer it it falls apart.

How would you define suffering?

Does it hurt when a love falls apart? Certainly. But that doesn't mean I'll suffer. I'd probably be sad for a little while or maybe even for a long while, but the hurt goes away quickly. My happiness is not and was not the result of the love that is past, but rather my happiness was one of the seeds that made that love possible.

I was happy before and I will be happy again afterwards.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

How would you define suffering?

Does it hurt when a love falls apart? Certainly. But that doesn't mean I'll suffer. I'd probably be sad for a little while or maybe even for a long while, but the hurt goes away quickly. My happiness is not and was not the result of the love that is past, but rather my happiness was one of the seeds that made that love possible.

I was happy before and I will be happy again afterwards.

The suffering I allude to is having emotions that you would rather not have or that you would not have choosen to have. And having emotions that are too much to be able to find joy in the moment.

I'm wondering now about "broken hearts". That everyone has a different level of what it feels like to have a relationship fall apart or not work out. But what makes the suffering level different? One person is able to move on while one is freaking out.

Is the freaking out level of a broken relationship directly related self esteme? The less you feel whole on your own, the more suseptable one is to a suffering during heart break?

[Honeywith4bees]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

I'm wondering now about "broken hearts". That everyone has a different level of what it feels like to have a relationship fall apart or not work out. But what makes the suffering level different? One person is able to move on while one is freaking out.

Is the freaking out level of a broken relationship directly related self esteme? The less you feel whole on your own, the more suseptable one is to a suffering during heart break?

I wonder why it's not okay to be heartbroken and sad when you lose a love relationship. Obviously, it's more desirable to live your life free from pain and heartache, but I don't see anything wrong with being able to grieve over something lost.

I was very heartbroken when my Mother died, but I don't think it related to my level of self - esteem. Or maybe, were not talking about the same thing?

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Is the freaking out level of a broken relationship directly related self esteem? The less you feel whole on your own, the more susceptible one is to a suffering during heart break?

I think it is. If you view the relationship as the thing that makes you whole, you will be broken when it ends. If, on the other hand, you perceive yourself as being whole regardless of the state of the relationship, you won't feel broken when the worst comes.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Honeywith4bees

I wonder why it's not okay to be heartbroken and sad when you lose a love relationship. Obviously, it's more desirable to live your life free from pain and heartache, but I don't see anything wrong with being able to grieve over something lost.

I was very heartbroken when my Mother died, but I don't think it related to my level of self - esteem. Or maybe, were not talking about the same thing?

Yeah, that is something different but similar. I do think there's a greving for loss not matter the level of self esteem.

I'm trying to understand the viewpoint of letting yourself show love or fall in love and how to not be worried about the heart ache. And specifically with a gf/bf or partner relationship. Some say it depends on being whole first then it doesn't hurt so much if it breaks up. Being whole first is self esteem. So if I hurt a lot after a break up, I have low self esteem? Or if I can't show love I'm fearing and holding back (which again is because of the low self esteem since the hurt will be more that the relationship provided something that helped raise feeling good about yourself).

How to be able to love fully without attachement so that there's no need to fear what it could feel like if it ended. Almost sounds circular. If you aren't attached to the love relationship then it doesn't matter if it ends. But if it doesn't matter if it ends - why are you in it?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

But if it doesn't matter if it ends - why are you in it?

Because the experience of sharing a love relationship with someone else is enjoyable. I know I would be sad if my current relationship ended, but after all the work I've done, I would more remember it fondly than be heartbroken. Previously when we broke up I was devestated. I think it's a matter of perspective.

[NotesMaeve]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

There have been users of this forum saying it's possible to fall in love and not suffer it it falls apart.

Of course it's possible. I was in love with R., my ex. He's why I moved to CA. Our relationship no longer became what I wanted and he wasn't willing to work with me.

R. and I haven't been broken up that long, actually. I think we broke it off five months ago? I'm not really happy that he had sex with someone else and didn't want relations with me for the last three months of our relationship, but didn't make me suffer.

When Slamhot Boy and I decided to start dating, we agreed very early on there were things we weren't going to do:

1) Behave like our parents.

2) Relive the relationships with our exes.

Of course, we're not perfect. We were talking last night about going out to eat. HE HATES IT when he always has to pick the place. I hate picking the place. Both childhood issues. He says, "I don't like when you do that, C. I'd like you to pick the place 50% of the time." It's not an unreasonable request. I certainly couldn't have that in my old relationship!

I also know that if Slamhot and I were to split, I'd be prepared for an equally great life, with or without someone. Of course, as we said last night: We stay because unlike other partners we've had, we take care of each other. It's such a nice feeling, knowing that he and I can come from a background of partners who didn't "care for," and have that. Could we do it again with different people? Oh yeah.

[Rose of Cairo]

NotesMaeve, when you have to pick the place, just ask me.

[NotesMaeve]

Done and done! There's a Thai vegan place you'd LOVE!!!

[dancer]

When I fall in love, I don't just fall in love with the person, I fall in love with everything and everyone. It is like this person has opened up the floodgates to a powerful river. If I'm dumped the valve is obstructed, I still love my family and friends, but I end up beached and disconnected to that great flowing love. So, I do not think it is necessarily the person that is mourned, but more the connection to love. If I fall out of love, I'm still on the river, but the flow has lost its momentum.

I think the ego also plays a part, especially with suffering and bitterness towards the dumper or not wanting to let go.

[cylon]

I think the level of attachment you feel to another is equal to the disconnect you have to being at peace with yourself while alone. Many people find a new flame and hope and expect all the other conficts or problems they had while alone will be taken care of by the other person. That's how it feels, you've "found it", whatever that "it" is.

So, you want to hold on at all costs. The solution to your life's problems is in your life now, of course you don't want to let it go. And thinking there's a possiblity you could lose it, will make you hold on even tighter. Eventually you are holding on so tight to such a "good thing" that you suffocate it and you end up either alone or in a completely different relationship that has none of the fun, carefree elements it had in the beginning.

And when and if the relationship ends, you're back to where you were before, the disconnect you feel with your own self, mixed in with feeling that you "lost" the answer to all your problems.

This is what I've learned at least. The best kind of love is when you are with someone who is good FOR you, and many of these things truly take care of themselves. If you're constantly thinking of how to make a relationship "work", it's not working naturally. Sure you have to work AT IT-- but you can do so in a healthy way.

When you are at peace with yourself, and enjoy your own company, you aren't attached to MANY things, including a partner. You're already securely attached to yourself. So a partner becomes a fun thing to enjoy that enhances what you already HAVE in YOURSELF, instead of becoming an ESCAPE from yourself.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Is the freaking out level of a broken relationship directly related self esteme? The less you feel whole on your own, the more suseptable one is to a suffering during heart break?

Yes, I think so.

I agree with Jim, if you need someone else to feel good and happy, then if that person disappears from your life, of course you'll be broken and lost. The problem however is not the other person going, it is you needing her.

Statements like "I can't live without you!" are said to be very romantic... but if I heard a guy saying that to me, I'd run away screaming out loud! To me it sounds just unhealthy and scary.

Now that doesn't mean that nobody should ever feel pain. My ex and I separated recently and of course I feel sad. My dog died a few days ago, I also feel sad. It's someone disappearing from your life, beautiful moments that will not come back, words you'll never hear again... Of course that hurts. Grieving is normal I guess.

I think what makes a heart really breake are thoughts like "I'm worthless as a single" or "I feel so lonely" or "nobody loves me" or "If she dumped me, that means that I'm not good enough" or "the other one is better than me" or such things... if you don't have such thoughts, it's sad to say goodbye, but it won't drain all hapiness out of you.

And it also has something to do with expectations, again. If you expect a lot from yourself and from your partner, like "we'll always stay together" or "we'll always help and support each other", or "I will always love her", when they go you feel betrayed, and maybe unimportant. Other possibility, you stop wanting the relationship yourself, and feel terribly guilty. Without such expectations, her or your "betrayal" is just a decision she/you made to go another path than yours/hers. You can part with love and go your way in peace.

That was about broken relationships. Now about expressing your love and being rejected... It's the same. If you think things like "if she says no, that means I'm not good enough" or "if she says no, I'll be lonely" or "if she says no, that means I'm worthless, I lose my face", well yeah, if you have such a low self-esteem, you'll feel rejected by a no. In that case it's understandable if you try to avoid such a pain by being extremely careful with expressing your feelings. But again, if you don't have such thoughts, a no will not hurt you.

Another thing that was very, very important for me to understand is that expressing your love does not necessarily mean that you request anything. Most people, when they say "I love you" don't mean "I love you". They mean "I love you (sometimes, IMO that's quite rare in fact), I want to be in a relationship with you / I want to spend more time with you / I want you to <something>" It's a request! If you take the request part out of the equation, expressing your love isn't scary anymore.

I've realized that loving someone is a wonderful experience and saying it also gives me a great feeling. It's a gift for the other person, like saying "I have opened my eyes to your beauty and now I can see how wonderful you are". So what's scary with just saying that? It's a compliment. You're not afraid of telling others what a great car they have either, are you?

You don't have to "give" anything in return, or to agree with anything, just because someone loves you and you don't tell him to get lost. And you don't have to fiercely want something just because you love someone. Sometimes it will happen, sometimes not... maybe you don't want (yeah, I can love someone and NOT want anything with them), maybe they don't want for some reason, they just take another decision, and you can still love them and be happy.

my 2 cts.

[MyBrainHurts]

I think if you fall in love and it falls apart and you do not feel "sad" or "hurt" in a way then there is something wrong with that picture or you were never really in "love" in the first place. "love" is an emotion which has its consequences which usually tend to be more emotions. You should expect to feel emotional consequences when you engage in an emotional based relationship.

[MyBrainHurts]

EDIT: It duped sorry.

[openeyes]

For a while I focused on close affectionate friendships in part to avoid the issues that come up in romantic relationships. As I delve back into the romantic arena I do so with the feeling that if/when things end it'll be okay. Crying and feeling out of it for a while is fine. Negative feelings don't last very long as I've learned to process them, hence I'm more comfortable with taking emotional risks and leaving myself vulnerable at times rather than always having my guard up, giving deep connections with others a chance to form.

Though I'm enjoying the love I receive and share with my girlfriend right now, and she's the first woman I've come across that it feels I could happily spend every moment with (usually I end up wanting space after a few hours), my primary source of love and acceptance is myself. I've been surprised at how comfortable I feel with Elle and how much I actually enjoy the thought of sharing a commitment with her. Still, I feel that something needn't last forever in order to be worthwhile. Whether we're together another few months or 30+ years, so far it's been a rewarding experience.