A Letter to a Woman I Love

[Lola]

Originally Posted by Angela

I think we women in the "maybe 15 years older" category can really appreciate the beauty and rarity of a man who is free, because we encounter so many of the fear-based-approach men.

Oh god - I've given myself a headache by agreeing with you so heartily.

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Romantic rejection is non-existant in a non fear based approach? OK. And the antidote is expressing oneself fully and authentically? It could be that the fear exists because of attachments that naturally occur with falling in love.

I believe that's what she's saying. If I love freely and fully express myself with no attachment to the outcome, rejection cannot occur because I am intact as a loving, expressing person regardless of what does or does not come to me from someone outside of myself.

[cylon]

I'm curious, for the women posting here (if you care to elaborate on this) how many times you have given a man the "let's just be friends" speech, and the circumstances.

[Angela]

Hey, guys -- it may sound very bold to you, but I am saying that it's not necessary to have fear be part of generating a romantic relationship. You seem to be approaching romantic love holding onto a basic Truth that fear is an unavoidable part of it; that protecting yourself from the inevitable onslaught of danger, risk and peril is essential! And while no, Cylon, I don't know what it's like to be a man, I do know what it's like to want someone to choose me and then not be chosen. What I'm saying is that being hurt when I'm not chosen is not necessary, if I'm granting the other person the freedom to be exactly who he is and exactly who he is not. That's what I'm saying is the antidote to pain, Wolfgang. Rather than being an antidote, being fully self-expressed is a natural result of generating freedom in relationships. Freedom (acceptance) is the antidote not only to the paralyzing response to fear that you mentioned, it's actually the antidote for the fear itself.

As a society, we seem to have convinced ourselves that pain is an integral part of romantic love, and we use language that reinforces it: rejection, betrayal, cheating. And it does take a great deal of conscious choice to overcome the belief that pain and love go hand in hand.

I advocate living a life you're in love with. For me, being vigilant about recognizing when I'm being run by inauthentic fear, letting go of that fear, and generating something that inspires me, like freedom.... that's a big part of creating a live I'm in love with.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Lola

Oh god - I've given myself a headache by agreeing with you so heartily.



I believe that's what she's saying. If I love freely and fully express myself with no attachment to the outcome, rejection cannot occur because I am intact as a loving, expressing person regardless of what does or does not come to me from someone outside of myself.

Is it possible to fall in love without attachment?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Is it possible to fall in love without attachment?

Absolutely possible!

[cylon]

Why do I keep retyping this post?

Women, in general, tend to tell men to do the opposite of what attracts them. Probaby because the men that they CHOOSE to be with, and care for, DON'T do these things. "I wish guys were more sensitive, more expressive with their feelings..." The guys who they are with don't do this. The guys they are not with, do this. That is a very general statement I know, but that's what I see.

Anyway I liked your last post Angela.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Angela

What I'm saying is that being hurt when I'm not chosen is not necessary, if I'm granting the other person the freedom to be exactly who he is and exactly who he is not. That's what I'm saying is the antidote to pain, Wolfgang.

I don't see the connection between letting someone be free and not being hurt if you have set your heart on them but it's unrequited love. How does one actually not feel hopeful about a love interest and then if it doesn't work out feel a bit of heartache? It's not necessary is what you say. Not being attached to the outcome, right? But how to have hope if not attached to what you want it to be? Hope without attachement? What is that?

Rather than being an antidote, being fully self-expressed is a natural result of generating freedom in relationships. Freedom (acceptance) is the antidote not only to the paralyzing response to fear that you mentioned, it's actually the antidote for the fear itself.

You say: Freedom and acceptance makes the fear of feeling unrequited love go away. Or does freedom and acceptance make the feeling of unrequited love itself go away, in which case the fear is not there?

As a society, we seem to have convinced ourselves that pain is an integral part of romantic love, and we use language that reinforces it: rejection, betrayal, cheating. And it does take a great deal of conscious choice to overcome the belief that pain and love go hand in hand.

Pain isn't part of romantic love when it works out. Otherwise the pain is there to the degree you have put you heart set on it working out and having it fall apart. If you don't put your heart into it working out what kind of relationship is that?

I advocate living a life you're in love with. For me, being vigilant about recognize when I'm being run by inauthentic fear, letting go of that fear, and generating something that inspires me, like freedom.... that's a big part of creating a live I'm in love with.

But still you are attached to having a great relationship, that you have? I don't think you would be saying the same thing if your relationship was falling apart. Or are you able to feel so free adn accepting that you'd not have heartache?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

You say: Freedom and acceptance makes the fear of feeling unrequited love go away. Or does freedom and acceptance make the feeling of unrequited love itself go away, in which case the fear is not there?

Generating a space of freedom and acceptance, that is, accepting people exactly as they are and exactly as they are not, renders the term, "unrequited love" obsolete. When you're feeling "unrequited love", what you're feeling is the desire to "get" something out of a person -- you want her to "return" your love, or otherwise give you something, and if you don't "get" it, you suffer. Now, if you grant that person the freedom to be exactly as she is, without requiring her to do anything in order for you to be happy, then there's nothing to requit!

That doesn't mean you can't think, "god, I really like this woman and would love to give it my best shot to generate a great relationship with her -- maybe even a LTMBR." That would be excitement or enthusiasm, yes? Not fear -- because you wouldn't really be losing anything if it didn't end up exactly as you pictured. Giving each other the freedom to Be, even if it means not fitting your perfect picture -- that's what a great, loving relationship is all about.

But still you are attached to having a great relationship, that you have? I don't think you would be saying the same thing if your relationship was falling apart. Or are you able to feel so free adn accepting that you'd not have heartache?

If Danger Man and I were to part, I would be grateful to him for having given me the opportunity to find out what really satisfying and fulfilling love is all about, and I would be excited about going out into the world and generating it again with another man. I might be disappointed or sad (it's hard to conjecture) but I don't think I would suffer, or be fearful about the next phase in a life I love.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by Angela

I advocate living a life you're in love with.

I'm all with you on the living a life you're in love with part - and I do.

But even in the life I love not all things are effective. Some things work better than others. Love or fear has nothing to do with that.

It's been my experience that love letters aren't the best way for me to express my love for someone. Of all the different things I've tried, letters were the least successful. I don't fear letters or the outcome of sending them, it is just my observation that other things work better (for me).

[cylon]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

It's been my experience that love letters aren't the best way for me to express my love for someone. Of all the different things I've tried, letters were the least successful. I don't fear letters or the outcome of sending them, it is just my observation that other things work better (for me).

It's not the letter. It's the energy behind the letter.

[Lola]

Originally Posted by cylon

I'm curious, for the women posting here (if you care to elaborate on this) how many times you have given a man the "let's just be friends" speech, and the circumstances.

I have no idea. I do know I was more likely to use that line when I was much younger - high school/college - generally because I wasn't comfortable with *rejecting* the advances of a guy I didn't want to date.

Here's the thing about women, cylon - about *attractive* women, whether that attractiveness be pure physical beauty or the spark of an open, approachable, sparkling personality - they get hit on a lot. By young men, old men, single men, married men...

The sheer volume of attention prevents an attractive woman from responding favorably to all advances. Which is why, for our attention to be captured, there has to be something about a man that sets him apart from all the rest. Something like the open expression of affection in sly's letter, for example.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Lola

Something like the open expression of affection in sly's letter, for example.

Exactly. I was talking with another poster about the importance of being what you want your lover to be, and being welcoming warm arms, emotionally speaking, for her to walk confidently into.

I think many of you guys have encountered women who were not at the point where they were really ready for a LMBR -- you know, you might have met a few of them in bars -- and maybe you think being welcoming warm arms is a bad idea with those women. You're probably right! And there are many, many, many other women who ARE ready to take responsibility for co-creating an LMBR. For those women, any of whom might be the perfect match for you, make yourself what you you want HER to be, and make yourself a warm harbor for the right woman to dock in.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Lola

The sheer volume of attention prevents an attractive woman from responding favorably to all advances. Which is why, for our attention to be captured, there has to be something about a man that sets him apart from all the rest. Something like the open expression of affection in sly's letter, for example.

I guess I wasn't clear---I wasn't talking about some strange guy approaching you. I meant you were in a situation where the guy knew you enough that he thought he had a chance at taking it further, or perhaps thought that you were already IN some sort of romantic relationship.

Lola I have to disagree here. I think the open expression in the letter IS exactly what most guys would do (if they were shy, inexperienced, whatever). It's also what most men do before they hear "I like you as a friend."

[Angela]

Cylon, I think Lola is pointing out that she sees that the odds are against you -- there are many more women who don't want to be in a LMBR or sexual relationship with you than who do. That's the way it goes, it's nothing personal.

And you do have a choice about how you face those odds: with distrust and fear, or with something more inspiring to you and to women.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Angela

Cylon, I think Lola is pointing out that she sees that the odds are against you -- there are many more women who don't want to be in a LMBR or sexual relationship with you than who do. That's the way it goes, it's nothing personal.

And you do have a choice about how you face those odds: with distrust and fear, or with something more inspiring to you and to women.

Actually Angela I think the majority of women want that type of relationship with me, I'd say at least 90% of the women I encounter are waiting for me to claim them as my own. The fact that I can't be that to all of them, should not be taken personally by them. I am one man. Just one man.

I guess I'm not being very clear here. I was asking for examples of a guy who came on really strong, professed his undying love to you, and it freaked you out and you said "yikes! Let's just be friends".

That's never happened? I don't believe it.

[jaamkie]

Another (youngish) female opinion-
reading this I thought the intro could probably be pared down, enjoyed the specificity of the middle parts, but then the actual "I love you" at the end might be overwhelming depending on how she feels about you. Overall I like the idea, but the letter feels a little strange because you go from excusing your letter at the beginning to justifying your "I love you" at the end- maybe if you need to make so many excuses it isn't the right timing/thing to say; and the specific compliments are more meaningful but less overwhelming at the same time- feeling appreciated in many ways is wonderful, feeling the pressure of "I love you" is stressful. I think a better way to do it would be to give her the letter, let her respond, and if she responds warmly and it feels right, then say the "I love you" rather than putting it in a letter for the first time. Also I don't like the concept of a letter "replacing" a gift- not that I think gifts are necessary, but a letter isnt substitutable for a gift, and you shouldn't need to justify the letter that way, just send it because you mean it not because it's her "Christmas gift". If I were the receiver I would prefer something like this:


Merry Christmas, _______. I've been thinking about you recently, thinking what I might give you for Christmas, and the more I think about you, the more I want to tell you how I feel about you.

Truth be told, when I first met you, I didn't get the best first impression. I used to think you seemed stuck-up, or ignorant, and as a quiet boy who was still relatively shy and socially inexperienced at the time, I used to think that you were the kind of person who I could never, ever get on with – not in a million years. However, over the past four months I’ve realized that I was so very, very wrong, and I couldn’t be more thankful for that.

The truth is, you are one of the most kind and selfless people I have ever met. You are far from ignorant; you are caring and loving. You are independent, and you are strong of heart and mind. You are hilarious, and at times you probably don’t even realize it.

If there is a definition of the perfect woman, you are probably not far from it.

You have the nicest smile, the nicest hair, the nicest eyes and the nicest body. You don’t take life too seriously. You have fun and you are fun. You never seem to care about what other people think about you. You resonate this sense of complete and utter freedom in almost everything that you do.

And because of that, spending time with you is just a pleasure. When we talk, I want to talk to you for hours. And after we talk I want to think about you for hours. Even work is great when you’re around, and I actually look forward to being there when you’re there.

I love how passionate you are about your car. I love that you love good food. I love that you like to watch great movies. And I love that you give me little gifts, seemingly for no reason whatsoever. I love that you use your de-icer on my car, even when you’ve hardly got any left for yourself. I love that you cared enough to want to help me find a television for my mother. And I love your little subtleties; like the little funny voices you do when you’re being silly, the little in-jokes we have between us, and really little things like the little “x” you put on the end of every single txt message.

I want you to know that you’ve become one of my favourite people. I hope, most of all, that you have a brilliant Christmas, and that you have a fantastic New Year, because you really do deserve it.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by cylon

That's never happened? I don't believe it.

Of course it has happened! Why even ask the question? That's what I was saying -- the odds are that most any given man who makes romantic or sexual overtures to women is going to get more no's than yes's. You, you big stud, are the exception to that, of course .

What is your point about that?

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Angela

Of course it has happened! Why even ask the question? That's what I was saying -- the odds are that most any given man who makes romantic or sexual overtures to women is going to get more no's than yes's. You, you big stud, are the exception to that, of course .

What is your point about that?

And I'm sure it's happened several times. You wonderful ladies are saying "wear your heart on your sleeve--that is attractive. That's different than what most men do. We respond more to that, than to the opposite."

And I say, that is what most men on kamakazi missions DO. Instead of letting things develop naturally they get WAY ahead of themselves and spout their feelings at the wrong time. It's like they can't wait to get to the finish line so they will just skip all the steps that lead to two people forming a bond with each other. Those bonds take TIME to form.

And I know you have experienced this. Maybe with guys who you WERE attracted to--but they jumped the gun, you lost attraction and called them "buddy" and they wanted to jump off a bridge.

I myself, have never experienced this of course.

[Angela]

Yes, it's true -- some guys do try to circumvent the natural development of a relationship and rush the woman, nipping her potential desire in the bud.

AND if a man and woman already have some kind of relationship, like the OP and his maybe-correspondent, freely expressing what is so for you, without demanding anything in return (like requitment!), is not rushing or circumventing -- it is being authentic.

You are right that if a guy starts talking love and marriage in the first month or two, he'll probably get the boot.

[Lola]

Originally Posted by cylon

I guess I'm not being very clear here. I was asking for examples of a guy who came on really strong, professed his undying love to you, and it freaked you out and you said "yikes! Let's just be friends".

That's never happened? I don't believe it.

It's not that it's never happened. Just that responding in that manner was something my younger (less aware, less confident, more worried about not hurting someone's feelings, less emotionally mature) self might do.

I don't get a lot of professions of undying love these days. I think there are several reasons for that. One is the proliferation of fear-based-approach men, as Angela described above (or fear-based-non-approach men). Another is, in my *maturity* I'm more adept at recognizing the signs and nipping unwanted romance in the bud before it gets to that point. Then finally, when I am completely freaked out by a *proposition* (so to speak), I am much more comfortable in just calmly and non-judgementally stating something like, "I don't feel like we'd be a good match," followed up by interacting with them as I always did. Or if I'm seriously freaked, avoiding them. I generally don't vocalize the let's be friends offer.

ps - of course open declarations of love are probably also stymied by my occasional guardedness, self-protectiveness, and general wariness that comes in to play as well, but we're not talking about me. Are we?

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by DayInTheLife

When I first read the letter I thought it was too much, but having seen the female response, I'd say go for it.

It's not too much! It's gutsy Being lukewarm and cautious is totally unattractive. If you first check out how high the risk is, let her know somehow that you maybe like her a bit, while still doing as if you don't really want her in order not to lose your face.... well then it's no wonder that you get turned down.

Originally Posted by cylon

And experience.

Come on cylon! You know as an IMer that experience is but the manifestation of your past thoughts. Using what you attracted as a reference you'll never change anything.

Originally Posted by cylon

Everyone has fear when it comes to romantic love, men and women.

I don't agree. You can love someone and have no fear. She doesn't love you? So what? As long as you don't use her love as a measure for your own worth, nothing can ever happen to you. It's wonderful to love someone, you can enjoy it independently of the other person's feelings.

Originally Posted by cylon

<---then you wouldn't post a love letter asking for people's advice. You would just do it. He's scared. It's natural.

He said he wants to give her the most beautiful letter and asked us for advice to better it. It's a gift for her, not a means for him to get a relationship with her.

Originally Posted by cylon

I'm curious, for the women posting here (if you care to elaborate on this) how many times you have given a man the "let's just be friends" speech, and the circumstances.

Hmmm... I don't remember, I guess never. Of course it happens that I tell some guy that I hope we will become good friends. But that's because I sincerely wish to be his friend, it's not a way to say no to him. I don't think the men I tell that have any romantic interest in me. (or if they have, it's well hidden!) When I say no to a guy, I don't try to be friends. Doesn't make sense, if he has some romantic interest in me we wouldn't be really friends anyway.
Oh yeah, now I remember, there's one guy, it started as an affair, then he wanted a relationship, I didn't want, but I found him SO great, and funny, and intelligent, interesting, everything... I had such a good time with him, I would have loved to be his friend, so I told him "let's just be friends, please!" It didn't work of course.

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Is it possible to fall in love without attachment?

yes! Absolutely.

Originally Posted by cylon

Women, in general, tend to tell men to do the opposite of what attracts them.

Maybe that's true for you, (rememeber, LoA) but not generally.

Originally Posted by cylon

I think the open expression in the letter IS exactly what most guys would do. It's also what most men do before they hear "I like you as a friend."

I don't think that's what most men would do, but nevermind. If they hear "I like you as a friend", well, do you really think they would have heard something else without expressing their feelings? If a girl likes you as a friend, do you really think you can manipulate her into having sex with you? I don't think so. The question is more, why do you attract girls who like you as a friend instead of girls who want to have sex with you?

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Angela

Yes, it's true -- some guys do try to circumvent the natural development of a relationship and rush the woman, nipping her potential desire in the bud....You are right that if a guy starts talking love and marriage in the first month or two, he'll probably get the boot.

You make me so happy. I would say the OP is kind of like a proposal. That's how I read it--it's the type of speech a guy gives when he's on bended knee.

Originally Posted by Angela

AND if a man and woman already have some kind of relationship, like the OP and his maybe-correspondent, freely expressing what is so for you, without demanding anything in return (like requitment!), is not rushing or circumventing -- it is being authentic.

Ok. Even though you basically just took back what you previously said--I agree with being authentic. That's the solution to most things.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

Oh yeah, now I remember, there's one guy, it started as an affair, then he wanted a relationship, I didn't want, but I found him SO great, and funny, and intelligent, interesting, everything... I had such a good time with him, I would have loved to be his friend, so I told him "let's just be friends, please!" It didn't work of course.

Right, thanks.

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

The question is more, why do you attract girls who like you as a friend instead of girls who want to have sex with you?

It seems that every woman I "attract" wants to have sex with me. I'm not sure I understand the question.

But even I have botched those things up by blabbing about my feelings TOO SOON.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by Angela

You are right that if a guy starts talking love and marriage in the first month or two, he'll probably get the boot.

That also depends on his and her personality. If a mostly thinking, rational, cold man talks with me about love and marriage after one month, I'd get a bit scared indeed. But if he's full of passion and just as impulsive and emotional as I am myself, then I wouldn't mind him proposing me after one week. It's just a different way of handling feelings. I have no problem with telling someone that I love him after two hours of being in love

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by cylon

Right, thanks.

uh, I don't get your point? What does this example show to you?
I didn't use the "let's just be friends" line as a way to say no, I really wanted to be friends with him!

Originally Posted by cylon

It seems that every woman I "attract" wants to have sex with me. I'm not sure I understand the question.

I wasn't talking about you personally, I was generally asking men who get the "let's just be friends" line why they attract girls who like them like friends instead of girls who are willing to more. I was assuming that the girls were sincere about liking them like friends. If it's just a way to say no, then it's another thing.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by cylon

You make me so happy. I would say the OP is kind of like a proposal. That's how I read it--it's the type of speech a guy gives when he's on bended knee.

You and I read it differently.

Ok. Even though you basically just took back what you previously said--I agree with being authentic. That's the solution to most things.

I don't think I took back what I previously said, I just added to it. It's natural that appropriate feelings take some knowledge of the other person in order to develop, and that can take some time. For instance, if the guy tells the woman the first time he meets her, "I love you, I'd like to marry you!" the woman will feel and react or respond to the inauthenticity of it, even if he thinks he's being authentic. (except maybe in the case Rose describes, where two emotionally impulsive people are responding to each other.)

On the other hand, if on the first meeting, the guy says something authentic like, "I am really enjoying our time together, and I find you very engaging and fun to be with!" that might be responded to more favorably, and not necessarily with banishment to the friend zone.

And I think the OP is expressing his authentic, generous feelings in his letter. It's possible that the recipient may tell him that friendship is all he can expect from her, but wouldn't it be more kind for her to be straight with him, so that he can take the right next step, whatever that is?

On the other hand, she might, like me, be touched and moved by how generous, courageous, and direct he is, whether she wants romance with him or not. He's not really "risking" anything by telling her how he feels; he's not in danger of "losing" anything.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

uh, I don't get your point? What does this example show to you? I didn't use the "let's just be friends" line as a way to say no, I really wanted to be friends with him!

I was basically asking examples of men putting pressure on you too soon, and what the reaction was... the dude in the OP is about to put major pressure on someone. You ladies are saying jump right in. I was just asking for examples from your own life of what the consequences were for a guy who did the very thing you are suggesting to do. I know everyone's experience is different but it's the theme that interests me.

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

I was generally asking men who get the "let's just be friends" line why they attract girls who like them like friends instead of girls who are willing to more.

It's because they don't know what they are doing.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by cylon

... the dude in the OP is about to put major pressure on someone.

You see it that way, but I don't see any pressure. He's not making any demands or even any requests. He's not being manipulative or passive aggressive. He's just saying how her existence has made his life better.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by cylon

You ladies are saying jump right in. I was just asking for examples from your own life of what the consequences were for a guy who did the very thing you are suggesting to do.

It's much easier and more fun to remember all the times it worked out very well!
(many, many)

[cylon]

Well I think he's dropping a big responsiblity in her lap. I'm sure she can handle herself. The guy asked for male and female perspectives, I think he's got them.

He'll probably end up following the female perspective because it's what he wants to hear.

BUT--hopefully whatever happens it's for the best.