Why it does not pay to be Shy

[RichGrad]

I chanced upon this movie Adaptation that was showing on tv recently and it struck a chord in me. It is an engaging tale about a screenwriter's innate social anxiety and how it cost him to be unable to experience the beautiful moments in life.

Inspired by the movie, I would like to share what I wrote about my first crush and how my innate shyness cost me:

Why It Does Not Pay To Be Shy

Feel free to share your own experiences and how shyness has prevented you from moving on to beautiful relationships and memories...

[Bliss Sage]

Originally Posted by RichGrad

Feel free to share your own experiences and how shyness has prevented you from moving on to beautiful relationships and memories...

Hello Rich,

Well, you have quite a negative approach to being shy. I am shy too, but not as shy as I used to be when I was young. I am more inclined to be thankful for my shyness, as when I was in high school, I was perpetually infatuated from a distance with some self-loving jock and I am quite sure that my shyness spared me from a lot of pain and in some cases humiliation as well. I missed out on nothing and I am glad I never had the nerve to talk to one of them. And today, if only I had stayed as shy as I was in high school, I would have spared myself immeasurable suffering .

[Spiritual]

You talk about the common "what if's", but to be honest I almost never have these moments. Also you are making the assumption (like 99% of humanity does) that you know what would have been best, or what would probably have happened.

You write that you lost out on a possibly relationship with Sharon. Who says you lost on it? Maybe they were about to ridicule you for the whole school and cause you a lot of pain (not to mention that pain is not always "bad"). Or you could have ended up marrying and being in an unhappy marriage for the rest of your life.

I can go on forever.... As there are positive possibly results there are also negative ones. The assumption that we seem to know what would have happened if we did not do a certain thing, causes us to suffer. It's one of the most arrogant things we can actually do. Thinking we know what would be best for us AND for others. (Think of people always trying to "save" the world and the poor africans, who says they WANT to be saved??)

As I'm a firm believer that everything in our lives are as they should be, I see your shyness as something that you needed. Because of your shyness you now have the firm belief of not letting shyness rule you anymore. Often the things we had in our past, were the keys that transformed us to take control in those area's.

[RichGrad]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

Hello Rich,

Well, you have quite a negative approach to being shy. I am shy too, but not as shy as I used to be when I was young. I am more inclined to be thankful for my shyness, as when I was in high school, I was perpetually infatuated from a distance with some self-loving jock and I am quite sure that my shyness spared me from a lot of pain and in some cases humiliation as well. I missed out on nothing and I am glad I never had the nerve to talk to one of them. And today, if only I had stayed as shy as I was in high school, I would have spared myself immeasurable suffering .

Bliss, Shyness is a form of self-defense. We are afraid of getting hurt so our mind protects us by activating "social anxiety". I guess we'll never know what will happen if we were less shy. We can speculate but we won't know for sure...

I'm not saying that shyness is always bad. Some people are attracted to shyness actually. =) I'm just wondering out loud because the movie I mentioned about (Adaptation) really made me think...

[RichGrad]

Originally Posted by Spiritual

You talk about the common "what if's", but to be honest I almost never have these moments. Also you are making the assumption (like 99% of humanity does) that you know what would have been best, or what would probably have happened.

You write that you lost out on a possibly relationship with Sharon. Who says you lost on it? Maybe they were about to ridicule you for the whole school and cause you a lot of pain (not to mention that pain is not always "bad"). Or you could have ended up marrying and being in an unhappy marriage for the rest of your life.

I can go on forever.... As there are positive possibly results there are also negative ones. The assumption that we seem to know what would have happened if we did not do a certain thing, causes us to suffer. It's one of the most arrogant things we can actually do. Thinking we know what would be best for us AND for others. (Think of people always trying to "save" the world and the poor africans, who says they WANT to be saved??)

As I'm a firm believer that everything in our lives are as they should be, I see your shyness as something that you needed. Because of your shyness you now have the firm belief of not letting shyness rule you anymore. Often the things we had in our past, were the keys that transformed us to take control in those area's.

Spiritual, you are right. Precisely because it never happened, I can only guess the outcome. I tend to be a romantic and think of all the positive situations that would likely happen - of course, that may not be the case. My point is we never know...

On hind sight I realized that I shouldn't let shyness hold me back anymore and that's a positive thing =D

[Bliss Sage]

Originally Posted by RichGrad

Bliss, Shyness is a form of self-defense. We are afraid of getting hurt so our mind protects us by activating "social anxiety". I guess we'll never know what will happen if we were less shy. We can speculate but we won't know for sure...

I'm not saying that shyness is always bad. Some people are attracted to shyness actually. =) I'm just wondering out loud because the movie I mentioned about (Adaptation) really made me think...

I am a great deal less shy than I used to be, as a matter of necessity from traveling extensively and living for years and years having to take care of myself, by myself, in countries where English wasn't spoken. I can tell you, I was scared inside myself to speak in English, my own language, when I lived in North America, but after years of being forced to speak out and ask for help in so many other places and languages, I became homesick to speak English and I still am - to be able to speak freely and naturally without the hinderances of worrying about my pronunciation, grammar, not finding vocubulary... Now when I go back to North America, in the right circumstances, I could potentially become a chatter-box (as a U.S. customs worker in Newark knows and a guy at a bookstore in Rideau Centre in Ottawa also knows - well, I was starved for linguistically uninhibited social interaction, so...)

But I want to point out, there is a difference between shyness and introversion. Much of the time I like to keep to myself and I don't have anything to say. It's not necessarily because I am shy or afraid to talk, but I just don't have anything to say, and often times something I deem useless or unimportant will pop into my head during a conversation and I conclude it is just more trouble and effort to say than it is worth.

Anyway, Rich, everyone has different forms of self-defence. People have personality facades, others may be incapable of ever saying anything serious, just one "joke" after another. Some people don't stop talking...I quite like that I am quiet and calm in front of others. I like to watch and observe people and I learn a lot about them and they have no clue I'm even there. ... .

Maybe it is worse to be shy as a man, due to how society is. I reckon even in this day and age, it is more socially acceptable to be a shy girl. But I did have a hard time growing up due to my shyness and almost my entire social life existed in an enormous and vast collection of penpals I had across the world (pre-computer, pre-Internet era, thank God). And to this day, making friends is painfully difficult for me - even though I don't feel shy really - but I need to get to talk with just one other person, not a group, or more than one.

Anyway, shyness can be undone to a great extent, if you put yourself in drastic situations, by yourself, like I did...and continue to do.

[Spiritual]

I think you nailed it RIGHT there Bliss Sage!

There is this very thing line between Introvercy and Shyness. I myself am a introvert, but I'm not shy, to be honest I'm quite a social guy, I enjoy being with fun people, and most of the time I'm the one who keeps the story rolling.
But I can really relate to the "sometimes I just keep to myself"-part. Part of my daily business is having deep thoughts, it's just who I am, and I like philosophize. There aren't many things I haven't thought of yet, but that doesn't mean I always want to talk about it.

Sometimes I can get in this talkwave, and I just can't stop. But on the other hand I also have a lot of moments where I'm just sitting with people and I just can't be bothered to open my mouth or do anything, I just really feel like "being" (and don't take that as a spiritual intention). Often I can feel the tension coming from other people who are feeling the social pressure "to talk or not to talk", and then I have the choice, social as I am, should I start the convo and ease the other person, or should I just keep quiet. And most of the times I just keep quiet, since I don't feel like having a talk and just want to be in my own internal world.

It's a current trend to have all the introverts convert to extravert, cause when you're social, you're also successfull right? And just a while ago I read an article about how wrong this idea is. Why would we even want to have only extraverts, when it's the introverts that bring the unique ideas to the plate. When the introverts are the one where creativity flows.
I think it's appropriate to state that extroverts are the "do-ers", the people who make things happen, who are promoters etc etc, and the introverts are the ones who think about concepts, bring the ideas.

Luckily I'm quite balanced between my social character and my introvert being, but I can really imagine some people who don't have this balance and are real hardcore introverts, can get quite some suffering in their life.

[Bliss Sage]

Originally Posted by Spiritual

It's a current trend to have all the introverts convert to extravert

If this is a trend, then it has lasted at least a few decades, because nobody liked me to be shy and quiet the way I was back in the 80's either. This varies from country to country. I was in the U.S. In other countries, people are more accepting of me how I am. Once you are in an accepting environment, too, you start to feel a bit safe to come out of your shell.

My introversion has to be mixed up with my shyness, I don't know to what extent. Anyway, I never have the problem you mentioned about people getting fidgety trying to think of things to say, because I also have a cloak of invisibility, so it seems people, especially loud ones, can't see me . Even sometimes when I try to talk, I'm not heard, people talk over me, my voice isn't loud enough.

I have always quite liked my shyness, and people trying to change me to be more social only made me want to stay the way I was even more. For some reason, quiet people are treated like they have some disorder that needs to be fixed, so they should to fight against not talking to others. Me, I just felt that someone who wants to get to know me can take me aside and talk heart-to-heart with me, not all of this loud, superficial chattering and the walls of personality. That was never me. I once wrote a poem about it ... Nobody ever did want to get to know me.

[Spiritual]

Your story is fascinating Bliss Sage, cool stuff to talk about!

Ofcourse it's not a short trend, but since time is an illusion..... (hahaha, just kidding ofcourse ).

I can't relate to the not being heard part. Often I get asked to talk quieter (even though I whisper for my own hearing). This has caused for some emberassing moments in colleges as you probably can understand .
Ofcourse this is all to be traced back to the time where I was bullied and ran over every day. I felt powerless, not understood and lonely. Probably what you experienced the same in some degree.

After I finished my highschool I entered the world of "college". There I started meeting cooler people and I started getting to know myself. Since that moment I'm the one in control, quite dominant as well. Some may find me to "noisy", to "out there". And often this is true, and I like it that way. I'm not here to dominate others, but I do know what I want and what I don't. And who can blame me?

I don't dislike shyness in others, but it becomes annoying when they don't speak up when questions are asked. It's when the border between shyness and autism is getting very thing. When I ask someone a thing, I want an answer, and some folks just have some problems with even some basic interaction.

If we talk about shyness in relationships, I'll pass. Since I'm quite a dominant figure I need someone who can give some resistance. Would I want to be with an introvert? Could be yes, as long as she says what she wants to say it, that's very important.

As I've been on both sides of the spectrum (powerless and powerfull), I now start to notice the "control" position is getting quite annoying and tiring. Even though I like to just speak up my mind, I really focus on letting go of the ropes and just flow within life and every experience on my path.

Have you noticed this within yourself that when you have been on one side of spectrum a while you start to desire the other side?

[Bliss Sage]

Originally Posted by Spiritual

Ofcourse this is all to be traced back to the time where I was bullied and ran over every day. I felt powerless, not understood and lonely. Probably what you experienced the same in some degree.

Yes, I was bullied too. Things were better in high school, though, because I changed school districts. My bullying only served to make me even more shy and scared of people though.

If we talk about shyness in relationships

Well, not sure what good it is to be shy in a relationship. Why have the relationship if you don't feel safe to be yourself in it, just stay alone, you can at least be yourself alone. I would choose being alone to being in a relationship I didn't feel safe to be myself in.

Have you noticed this within yourself that when you have been on one side of spectrum a while you start to desire the other side?

Well, I don't know. I've never been at the powerful end, but I've been falling head over heels in my life to try to get there.

It's interesting to note that the only sort of female friends I managed to get all these years were always very loud and dominating personalities. I get along very well with girls like that, and it's mutual.

[Spiritual]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

Well, I don't know. I've never been at the powerful end, but I've been falling head over heels in my life to try to get there.

It's interesting to note that the only sort of female friends I managed to get all these years were always very loud and dominating personalities. I get along very well with girls like that, and it's mutual.

Interesting! I think it also depends on how your values are being respected within that group. If they would totally run over you and disrepect you for being more quiet than them, I think it would be different.

I'm mostly attracted (relationship wise) to folks who are not loud like "attraction whores", but more like just knowing what they want, and not afraid to open their mouth (a lot depends on what's coming out to )

But I also hang around with (mostly girls) who are quieter and shyer aswell, we fill the gap most of the times. They do the work and I do the talking, cause I'm more of the talker, don't like to do that much school/job-wise.


I was extending the shyness also into relationships, but when I see your opinion I can relate to that. But there are plenty of people who are shy in a happy relationship, most of the time also sexual wise. Actually a lot of shy and subjective persons like to be dominant sexual wise, and the dominant ones want to be subjective. Quite interesting that both parties like each other's part in a certain situation.

Not to imply that shyness also means subjective, but it often goes hand in hand.

Also I really believe being less shy is a conscious decision. Just being out there doesn't need any work, it's just the click that you say "now I'm gonna do it different!". Ofcourse you have to ask yourself, do I really want to be less shy, or do I secretly like it this way

[Bliss Sage]

Originally Posted by Spiritual

Interesting! I think it also depends on how your values are being respected within that group. If they would totally run over you and disrepect you for being more quiet than them, I think it would be different.

Well, I did not have "groups". In fact, there are only 2 such girls - one was my best friend in high school and the other is a more recent friend. They are both so similar and a laugh riot . Both took sort of a protective way with me, especially the one from high school.

I'm mostly attracted (relationship wise) to folks who are not loud like "attraction whores",

ahaa...you're the "attention whore" guy from the other thread?

But I also hang around with (mostly girls) who are quieter and shyer aswell, we fill the gap most of the times. They do the work and I do the talking, cause I'm more of the talker

Yes, that's another side effect. If someone who likes to talk finds someone quiet who listens... I have a couple regular ones. Most of them don't care about me, but just have to tell me their "stuff." In fact, as I write this, I have one IM-ing me at this very moment .

I was extending the shyness also into relationships, but when I see your opinion I can relate to that. But there are plenty of people who are shy in a happy relationship,

Well, for me, I can't express myself fully to anyone, only when alone, and if I have a relationship, it has to be with someone I feel comfortable expressing myself fully with. There are certain types of personalities that I can never be free with.

most of the time also sexual wise. Actually a lot of shy and subjective persons like to be dominant sexual wise, and the dominant ones want to be subjective. Quite interesting that both parties like each other's part in a certain situation.

Not to imply that shyness also means subjective, but it often goes hand in hand.

I think you mean shy and submissive? I don't know...I guess I've heard that too.

I have a big problem with indecision...a big, big problem...it seems to get bigger the longer I live...

I feel sort of bad that we took this thread over from RichGrad...

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

There are certain types of personalities that I can never be free with....
I feel sort of bad that we took this thread over from RichGrad...

Actually, I think you're right on topic -- how being shy has costs. Of course, it has payoffs, too. You just have to evaluate the relative worth of being shy vs. being fully self-expressed.

If there are certain types of personalities that you can never be free with, then you're not really free at all. You're completely at the effect of other people. That's a pretty high cost, in my book. Perhaps the payoffs (like feeling safe) compensate for that, but I can't think of any payoffs that would be worth me voluntarily giving up my freedom for.

[Bliss Sage]

Originally Posted by Angela

Actually, I think you're right on topic -- how being shy has costs.

That's good to know, but I feel like we drown him out and he's not writing.

If there are certain types of personalities that you can never be free with, then you're not really free at all. You're completely at the effect of other people. That's a pretty high cost, in my book. Perhaps the payoffs (like feeling safe) compensate for that, but I can't think of any payoffs that would be worth me voluntarily giving up my freedom for.

The fact is, as soon as there is another person present, I can't be "free" anymore. The reason is because as soon as there is another person present, I become present with that person and I am no longer just with myself. That person has an emotional world and ... well, I have to pay attention to that person and listen to that person. If I don't feel up to it, I have to go away and be alone. Isn't that normal for everyone?

It's not a question of giving up my freedom, it's a question of: when I'm alone I'm free, when I'm not alone, I'm not free. I can't be with another person and not be affected or touched by their emotional world.

Angela, I have to admit something...I think this is the 3rd time now, whenever you write something to me, I start thinking about stuff, and I end up getting filled up with questions and my conclusion is that I'm confused .
It's happened again...I got lost in the middle of my response. Sorry .

[Angela]

Bliss Sage, if you are being present with another person, listening generously and really Being With that person, that is being free. In that circumstance, you're not inhibited by concerns of self -- looking good, not looking bad, being right and not being wrong, etc. -- and you're free to express yourself completely and fully when it's appropriate. (If you were to just stand there listening and not respond appropriately, well, that would be sort of uncomfortable for the other person, not to mention you, wouldn't it?)

Shyness prevents a person from really being with another, really being present. Shyness is that self-concern, and it has the effect of a curtain coming between the shy person and everybody else.

If there is a certain personality type with whom you will never be free (as you mentioned in your previous post), your shyness (your self-concern) gets activated for one reason or another. I think it would be a really good idea to pay attention to what it is that activates that self concern, that curtain, that mechanism which makes you unable to really be present. If you can boldly look at what that is that activates your shyness, you can be free to either continue choosing it, or to choose something that works better. Until you see it, it's running you without your knowledge or conscious consent!

Just to be clear, I'm talking about shyness, not introspection.

[Spiritual]

You guys make my head crack from all these deep deep thoughts .

I think Angela has a good point, when you living a personality you didn't consciously chose, you're not free. But isn't this a limitation an sich aswell?

As you said Bliss Sage, you're indecisive, that allright, don't beat yourself up about it. Try to accept the fact that you're undecisive. Try this contradiction: try to be decisive in being undecisive.

If you are undecisive accept that you are, and you chose to be right that in this moment. When time feels right, you can chose to be decisive again and chose an other personality when you feel like that.

Does that make sense?

[Angela]

As we've talked about before in other threads, there's a world of difference between reacting and responding. When a person is shy, she's in reactive mode; that is, she isn't free to choose a conscious response, because the habitual reaction takes over before she ever gets to make a choice. Remaining quiet, letting the other person do most of the talking, not saying what's really on your mind, editing what you say before you say it.... those are the reactions, or habitual ways of being, of a shy person.

I wasn't quite accurate earlier when I said that "you're completely at the effect of other people." What I should have said is: you're completely at the effect of the habitual thoughts that get triggered by other people. 100% of the responsibility for your way of being is yours. So, to say, "I can't be free around some personality types" or "some people make me really nervous or self-conscious" is really just a mask for "my habitual thought or way of being is activated." Your lack of freedom, or your nervousness or self-consciousness, has absolutely nothing to do with the other person or his personality type; it has everything to do with your way of being.

That may sound really scary or confronting, but what it can mean is that the power to be free is entirely, 100% in your hands. That is like having a superpower, isn't it? Being free, as a matter of choice and being the cause, isn't that infinitely more inspiring than having your freedom lay in the actions or thoughts of other people?

[Angela]

p.s. sorry if I'm confusing anyone or making any heads crack!

[Bliss Sage]

Oh my gosh...ok, let me see...it's getting late here and my logical brain is shutting down...

Well, that was the stupidest thing my computer has done today...it magically posted my response before I even wrote any...

As I was going to say...When I said there are certain personality types, in fact, in all of this I have been writing, I have never meant that I am self-conscious or concerned about saying the wrong thing, not at all. What I do is I feel the person who I'm talking to and I choose how to act with him/her and what to say on the basis of what I feel in him/her. It's not about being self-conscious or insecure.

Just offhand, I can't think of an instance where I would be self-conscious or concerned about how I look or saying the wrong thing. Not to say there aren't such circumstances, but they aren't normal for me anymore. I mean something different than that when I say I can't be free with people.