Why it does not pay to be Shy

[Bliss Sage]

Originally Posted by RichGrad

You are welcome, jshine2 =)

"Shy people are usually the people in the corner wishing they were the life of the party, or the people dying for the life of the party to come 'round their way"

If that is a shy person, what do you call the person standing in the corner observing the life of the party and seeing all sorts of things she doesn't really want to see in him beneath his surface and beneath the surface of all the people paying attention to him, while she is simultaneously wanting to get away from the party and wondering how she got there in the first place and planning how to avoid the situation in the future?

[A2K89]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

If that is a shy person, what do you call the person standing in the corner observing the life of the party and seeing all sorts of things she doesn't really want to see in him beneath his surface and beneath the surface of all the people paying attention to him, while she is simultaneously wanting to get away from the party and wondering how she got there in the first place and planning how to avoid the situation in the future?

To the few parties I've attended, thats basically how I felt.

You are welcome, jshine2 =)

"Shy people are usually the people in the corner wishing they were the life of the party, or the people dying for the life of the party to come 'round their way"

And thats how I'm guessing people interpreted me, while at the party. Funny.

[Bliss Sage]

Originally Posted by A2K89

To the few parties I've attended, thats basically how I felt.



And thats how I'm guessing people read me while at the party. Funny.

Welcome then to the club . It seems to me that shy and/or quiet and/or introverted people are always misinterpreted and misjudged by others. Unless you find someone or somewhere where you are accepted just as you are, people want to change you and they say things that make you feel something is inherently wrong with you and that makes me feel bad, or it did. Now I stay alone as much as I can and I feel better being alone most of the time, the alternative is more painful.

It never occurs to people to talk (i.e. to me) to find out what is inside me and I used to say that, because I don't talk and impose myself on people, they think I'm empty and boring--that was what I believed when I lived in the States anyway. I don't like to talk unless I know someone is listening and unless the person wants to hear what I have to say, and that is really rare. I also don't talk just to hear my own voice. I have to have something to say.

[A2K89]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

Welcome then to the club . It seems to me that shy and/or quiet and/or introverted people are always misinterpreted and misjudged by others. Unless you find someone or somewhere where you are accepted just as you are, people want to change you and they say things that make you feel something is inherently wrong with you.

I often wonder to what extent do the people on Steve's site represent the general population, because I have never seen so many people who could relate to things I say. In real life, people tell me to change, in real life people tell me I am difficult to live with--even today I was told that. Maybe certain individuals just don't get along with people. I wonder if those individuals would get along with one another?

They say your difficult to live with... Even though you are a simple person no?

I'm gunna go out on a limb here and say you, me, and yossarian probably all hold a similar personality type. According to this personality test (which I just found twenty minutes ago on this board), I'm a "INTP".

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

It never occurs to people to talk (i.e. to me) to find out what is inside me and I used to say that, because I don't talk and impose myself on people, they think I'm empty and boring--that was what I believed when I lived in the States anyway. I don't like to talk unless I know someone is listening and unless the person wants to hear what I have to say, and that is really rare. I also don't talk just to hear my own voice. I have to have something to say.

And as a result I'm not very good at expressing my ideas/views/experiences, simply because I don't encounter anyone who can relate with them at all. I'm working on that though.

[Bliss Sage]

Originally Posted by A2K89

They say your difficult to live with... Even though you are a simple person no?

I don't know if I'm simple or others complicate my life or if I'm complicated, I don't know. I think I grew up with people who may be among the worst personalities for me to be around, because they are judgmental, critical, dominating, loud, assertive, harsh, insensitive, self-consumed, possessing an extremely exaggerated sense of self importance, not listening, not caring...

I find it difficult to live with other people, frankly, so it's not one-way, and I don't want to live with them either. "Tragically" at this moment I am forced to.

Originally Posted by A2K89

I'm gunna go out on a limb here and say you, me, and yossarian probably all hold a similar personality type. According to this personality test (which I just found twenty minutes ago on this board), I'm a "INTP".

I did that test too. I was I...I wrote it on that other thread...I was IN and ... sensing...not the "T" anyway. I had 95% introverted. I have to check what I got...ah, right, introverted, intuition, feeling, perceiving. One time I took that test I got INJP I think, but when I read the descriptions, it's clear the INFP fits me just about all-around, but the INJP doesn't fit me in several aspects. Besides, I have to get rid of the J, I hate that J.

Originally Posted by A2K89

And as a result I'm not very good at expressing my ideas/views/experiences, simply because I don't encounter anyone who can relate with them at all. I'm working on that though.

I got good at articulating my experiences, because in lieu of having anyone to talk to, I used to write everything and about everything. However, I am not so good at articulating myself orally and the less time I have to consider what to say, the worse I am...and I'm slow. I think slowly, I can't keep up when discussions are going on, I have to think about what I want to say and usually I say nothing because I have not managed to formulate a coherent sentence before the subject I was going to say something about is long gone.

I'd still like to write...now I have so much more to say, so many more experiences of things and people and so many more perceptions than I had when I was in my 20's. However, like in social situations, I don't think anyone wants to read what I have to say.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

Besides, I have to get rid of the J, I hate that J.

You can't hate that J and not be Judging (which is what it stands for) at the same time, so you're in a bit of a fickle there.

Try to start by letting go of your negative connotations of the term - especially in the context of the Meyers-Briggs personality type.

Thus said the teacher (ENFJ)

[jaamkie]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

However, I am not so good at articulating myself orally and the less time I have to consider what to say, the worse I am...and I'm slow. I think slowly, I can't keep up when discussions are going on, I have to think about what I want to say and usually I say nothing because I have not managed to formulate a coherent sentence before the subject I was going to say something about is long gone.

I'd still like to write...now I have so much more to say, so many more experiences of things and people and so many more perceptions than I had when I was in my 20's. However, like in social situations, I don't think anyone wants to read what I have to say.

Hey- I'd really like to read what you have to say! I totally agree writing is easier than conversation where you have to get your thoughts in a linear order quickly enough to keep up. I'm curious what you would say based on your life experiences, as I'm in my 20s now and realizing that I still have a lot to learn.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

I find it difficult to live with other people, frankly, so it's not one-way, and I don't want to live with them either. "Tragically" at this moment I am forced to.

Bliss Sage, having this attitude towards other people, is it any wonder why people would find you difficult to be with?

If that is a shy person, what do you call the person standing in the corner observing the life of the party and seeing all sorts of things she doesn't really want to see in him beneath his surface and beneath the surface of all the people paying attention to him, while she is simultaneously wanting to get away from the party and wondering how she got there in the first place and planning how to avoid the situation in the future?

I would say that person is in a pretty hardcore state of resistance. I hear in what you write a real desire to be accepted, exactly as you are and exactly as you are not. Maybe you can see that "seeing all sorts of things she doesn't really want to see" is you not accepting others exactly as they are and exactly as they are not. Wouldn't you say that if you want a condition in your life, like acceptance, it would be effective to actually BE that condition yoursef? When a person is in a state of resistance, it's not too surprising that people would resist her. Why not surrender, and be what you want to see?

I'm not saying you have to change (I think you've thought that before). I'm saying, you can't change other people, but you can change your own thoughts and experience. If there's something missing, you can choose to generate it yourself -- or not, it's your choice. Either way, it has nothing to do with what others are doing or saying or thinking, it's all about you and your choices.

[Bliss Sage]

Originally Posted by Angela

Bliss Sage, having this attitude towards other people, is it any wonder why people would find you difficult to be with?

Angela, please, I am respectfully requesting that you not continue to tread blindfolded on the grounds of my personal life. You have no idea to what I was referring in the quote you included and the sensitivity of the issue and how recently it occured, how many times or for how many years. As I acknowledged already, "I am a difficult person to live with" and evidently there are a sh*tload of things wrong with me which causes people not to like me. I don't need people incessantly reminding me of that. Where else would I have gotten the idea in the first place if I hadn't been told it all my life anyway? Clearly, I know it. I'm the one who said it already, that means I already know it and having it confirmed to me ad nauseum even by virtual strangers isn't really helpful. There's no need to rub salt in the wound. And if you think that I was born with the words that you quoted from me, then you, as most other people, have misunderstood me.

I'm sorry for the nature of this response, but I am hurting, and more today than other days.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

If that is a shy person, what do you call the person standing in the corner observing the life of the party and seeing all sorts of things she doesn't really want to see in him beneath his surface and beneath the surface of all the people paying attention to him, while she is simultaneously wanting to get away from the party and wondering how she got there in the first place and planning how to avoid the situation in the future?

I was that person (the one in the corner observing), and what I found I was seeing was a mirror of things I despised about myself.

BTW I get INFJ or ISFJ depending on when I've taken the test. I may not be in the club with you guys, but I've had many of the same feelings you describe in this thread so I thought I would toss my two cents in.

Feel free to ignore it!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

"I am a difficult person to live with" and evidently there are a sh*tload of things wrong with me which causes people not to like me.

Bliss Sage, I am so sorry you're hurting, and I hope that you can get through to the other side of pain quickly, if that's what you want to do.

I want you to be clear that I don't consider you to be a difficult person to live with, and I don't think there's a sh*tload of things wrong with you. In fact, I don't think there's anything wrong with you at all, and I find you to be easy and very helpful to "live" with (virtually!). I am really glad you're here.

I'm a big proponent of taking 100% responsibility for your life, and generating a life you're in love with. That's the spirit in which I was asking you to consider that your attitude contributes to how people perceive you. (when I say "you" I mean "a person", not you personally and specifically.)

I'm not sure how to honor your request for me to not tread blindfolded on your personal life, because I can't see how what I said to you -- that is, asking you to look at what you're generating in your life -- is different from what I do any other time. I was responding only to what you wrote here, not to your history. It feels to me like you "hear" me saying there's something wrong with you, or that you should change, or that you're bad (or something like that.) I am a little stopped here, because what I want to communicate to you is that you're absolutely, perfectly perfect, exactly as you are and exactly as you are not. I would like for you to see that you have all the power in the world to create a life you are in love with, if you choose to do that. And if you don't choose to do that, that's fine too. (I guess I work from the base assumption that people here want to generate a life that they're in love with, and of course not everybody wants to do that. I'm sorry if I had you feeling bullied into doing that -- I can be pretty blunt!)

I would love to hear any advice you may have for me in this regard -- "how can I be understood by you?" It's a challenge between us, I realize.

Again, I really hope you are able to transform your pain. Pain sucks.

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by A2K89

I'm gunna go out on a limb here and say you, me, and yossarian probably all hold a similar personality type. According to this personality test (which I just found twenty minutes ago on this board), I'm a "INTP".

I was an INTP until about 2 years ago, when I slowly made the transition to INFP. My F/T is always borderline.

I prefer to express the F part. I naturally have a very strong intellect but I've learned that the intellect is not the master - the intellect is the tool. The heart must be the master, hence the F becoming more pronounced.

I usually score something like 100% I, 80% N, 60% F, 80% P

My own approach to dealing with my social issues is actually quite similar to the solution Angela offered although I express it differently.

The way I look at it is that I have to learn to make myself vulnerable, and learn to accept whatever it is people give me with love. So I make myself vulnerable and express my true self, while being outcome independent with respect to the consequences. I intentionally avoid thinking about the consequences, and just express the loving, warm self without repression. If someone abuses me in response, I'm slowly learning to accept their abuse and have compassion for the confusion inside them that causes that abuse.

My focus is on cultivating equanimity with people's reactions to me, and on cultivating compassion and love for people despite how they may treat me.

Meditation has helped me an incredible amount.. I would say that the progress I've made has been 90% due to spending hours in meditation. You really can't meditate enough. I went to a 10-day Buddhist meditation retreat recently (non-stop meditation in silence for 10 days) and it really opened my heart and deepened the compassion that I feel for all people. It was an immense help, although also an extreme challenge to actually last the full 10 days. If it wasn't for the intentions that I've cultivated to be of selfless service to all of humanity, I would have never made it past day 3. That "devotional" practice motivated me to meditate, and the meditation opened up a lot of closed doors.

In the past, when I saw someone behave in an immoral way (since I'm perceptive I pretty much see everyone behaving in some kind of violent way) I would judge them and try to avoid them. But through meditation, I've been able to release that judgment and instead have compassion for the predicament they are in. Ultimately, inside of every screwed up person, there is a compassionate human who is itching to get out. The ultimate service that we can do for these people is to show them our true selves in a vulnerable and genuine way.

A few years ago, it would have been completely impossible for me to show my vulnerable side to random strangers. With meditation, it has become possible. A few years ago, I would have never even have been able to write this post because it would feel too vulnerable. I have to credit meditation+devotion for all of my progress.

[yossarian]

By the way, here a few INFP-ish sites that I have found pretty valuable:

My favorite site:
INFP Introverts: Think Different…Think Deeper

Bunch of INFP-ish stuff:
Deep Thoughts For Shallow People
Soul Age - Index
intensity - sensitivity
infp.globalchatter.com :: Index

[Bliss Sage]

Originally Posted by Angela

Bliss Sage, I am so sorry you're hurting, and I hope that you can get through to the other side of pain quickly, if that's what you want to do.

I'll be better again once I'm out of my brother's house and my mere presence is not cause for his anger. I came close to leaving this wretched house to go out to the streets yesterday to spare them the agony of me any further. I hardly even say anything here, so I can't understand and I don't leave messes or ... I mean I'm here as inconspicuously as I can be without ceasing to exist and he still shouts at me and his wife tells me I'm "difficult to live with," my brother told me I'm the worst guest they've ever had. Don't speculate as to why, I don't care why, I only care about leaving asap. I hate being here and I will leave as soon as I get the visa I need to go where I'm going. I feel like I've regressed so much since I got here. I had forgotten how bad family is and how bad it is for me.

I find it not only easy, but natural to be vulnerable and sort of normal with strangers, because strangers are nice and sometimes even gentle with me, and most people are nice, but it is these people, my alleged family, I have to go into a shell to protect myself and hide until I'm gone from them or they're gone and it's safe to come out again.

For giving advice, to be honest, I am often a little surprised that most people are ready to give advice without knowing much information about the situation. I usually don't do that, but I ask the person needing advice many questions first and I listen to them and that way I get an understanding and feeling for what they want and what their situation is and also for the feelings of the other people involved, because that matters a lot too when you give advice. For example, if a fish takes the advice of a fox and comes out on land to live, it will die. Before giving advice, a person ought to feel where the person is living so they don't give damaging advice.

Anyway, that's that, and the first paragraph explains my response. I doubt I would have responded as I did under normal circumstances. Maybe would have paid more attention to the latter part of your post, but when you are under fire, you don't yet think about how you are going to heal your wounds.

I'm sure glad, though, that you didn't respond hostily to my message. Thanks.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

For example, if a fish takes the advice of a fox and comes out on land to live, it will die. Before giving advice, a person ought to feel where the person is living so they don't give damaging advice.

It is not the fox's responsibility to keep the fish from harm. All the fox can do is offer advice that is to the best of her insights and then allow the fish to decide what to do with the advice.

For what it's worth, I don't think that any of the advice that Angela has given on this form is damaging. It may be difficult to follow through and it might result in some unpleasantries in the short term, but her stance of taking full responsibility and creating the life you love for yourself is sound. It works for her, it works for me, it works for NotesMaeve, Rose and a whole bunch of other people here.

I'm sorry and sad to read that you are in so much pain and it pains me even more that -in my eyes at least- you are acting as the catalyst for it and as of now appear to be unable to realize and change that. I really hope you'll soon find your way to the happy life you deserve.

Fingers crossed!

[yossarian]

When it comes to personality issues, people are ruthless in their criticism.

I could say to a person with cancer, "Can't you see? You are bringing the cancer on yourself! Stop!"

But they would just hear intolerance.

The plight of the socially anxious is similar. One does not consciously choose social friction anymore than one consciously chooses cancer.

In truth, ALL suffering in the world is caused by the self. There is no such thing as suffering being imposed on someone, whether it is disease or murder or anxiety or depression.

If you wanted, you could say to the murder victim, "Surely, you are aware that you brought this murder upon yourself? Indeed, it was entirely your own creation!" and you would be factually correct on an absolute level. However this is not a productive avenue of discussion, and will (usually) not help to lead that murder victim out of their suffering.

When someone is dealing with what could be described as a social disease, blaming the victim is just as useless as blaming the victim of murder. Every single human on this earth has various flaws - if they had no flaws they would not be here. The work is to work out these flaws. One person can see another and to them it is very obvious what the flaw is. To them, working out that flaw is as natural as walking upright. "Just stand up," says the biped. "It's easy to walk on two feet, all you do is do it! Gravity is not at fault, you are! Just do it!"

Ultimately, we all do our best to help out others, and despite our best efforts, we screw it all up. That is the nature of this reality.

Let both sides of this discussion remember: Virtue is not in the giving alone. "Giving advice" and "Receiving advice" are equal in virtue. Both are equivalent services.

[Bliss Sage]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

It is not the fox's responsibility to keep the fish from harm. All the fox can do is offer advice that is to the best of her insights and then allow the fish to decide what to do with the advice.

Nobody asked the fox for his advice, so the least he should do if he is going to stick his nose in others' personal pain and misfortune, even if that person deserves it for having brought it on himself, is ensure that he is giving advice which is suitable for the one who is vulnerable and whose life is at stake, the one who is going to die if he sets foot out of the water. If the fox is asked for his advice, it's different. Even in this case, however, if the fox is genuinely concerned for the well-being of the fish, he will be sure of what sort of animal he is dealing with and where that animal is so that his advice will help instead of hurt or instead of do nothing.

Understanding another person, which requires listening to them, with the desire of sincerly helping them, even when you know perfectly well they have no understanding of you or even a care for your life and probably never will, is an expression of love, as I experience love.

If you consider that the answer to every misery a person ever had or has is that it is their fault and they have to take responsibility, there is not even a need for advice or a reply, and if the person already knows this and still is lost, it just adds insult to injury.

And I agree with what Yossarian said.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

Nobody asked the fox for his advice, so the least he should do if he is going to stick his nose in others' personal pain and misfortune, even if that person deserves it for having brought it on himself, is ensure that he is giving advice which is suitable for the one who is vulnerable and whose life is at stake, the one who is going to die if he sets foot out of the water. If the fox is asked for his advice, it's different. Even in this case, however, if the fox is genuinely concerned for the well-being of the fish, he will be sure of what sort of animal he is dealing with and where that animal is so that his advice will help instead of hurt or instead of do nothing.

Understanding another person, which requires listening to them, with the desire of sincerly helping them, even when you know perfectly well they have no understanding of you or even a care for your life and probably never will, is an expression of love, as I experience love.

If you consider that the answer to every misery a person ever had or has is that it is their fault and they have to take responsibility, there is not even a need for advice or a reply, and if the person already knows this and still is lost, it just adds insult to injury.

I'm not saying that someone's misery is their fault, but I am saying that they should assume responsibility for generating happiness in their own life. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not about blaming the victim, it's about teaching the "victim" how to cope better with life. Apparently my choice of words doesn't make that clear to you, for which I'm sorry. I'll try to do better next time.

As for my sticking my nose in other people's pains, I think it is only fair to say that people solicit having their pains nosed over by posting on these forums. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

I'm here to give honest and well intentioned advice. I'm not going to say what I think is going to make you feel better in the short term, I'll say what I feel will make you feel permanently better in the long term. I don't pretend to have all the knowledge or to understand every situation, so you are absolutely free to discard anything I say when you feel it doesn't work for you.

And I agree with what Yossarian said.

As do I. Except for this bit:

Ultimately, we all do our best to help out others, and despite our best efforts, we screw it all up. That is the nature of this reality.

No it's not. There are in fact many more things that we don't screw up, but those things don't draw attention to themselves and thus we tend to be less aware.

[Bliss Sage]

Originally Posted by jaamkie

Hey- I'd really like to read what you have to say! I totally agree writing is easier than conversation where you have to get your thoughts in a linear order quickly enough to keep up. I'm curious what you would say based on your life experiences, as I'm in my 20s now and realizing that I still have a lot to learn.

Thanks jaamkie. I don't write about pd things though. I write about things I've experienced. Maybe if I ever had any success in pd, I'd write about that, but I haven't and I didn't even know there was such an industry before last year.

Anyway, the most recent article I started writing (but still haven't finished, like so many) was entitled "Dressing for Men - the miniskirt or the hijab". They are just things I observe in my environment and I think about, I write down my thoughts and observations, not pd and I don't have advice to give anyone because I don't really know how to live.

[Bliss Sage]

First, I have to say, I did not mean you personally when I was talking about the fox. It actually happens that a lot of people do that, and the worst of the lot for me are my brother and father and if I was thinking of anyone when I wrote those things, it was of them. It was not meant for you. You are hardly sticking your nose in my business .

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

I'm not saying that someone's misery is their fault, but I am saying that they should assume responsibility for generating happiness in their own life. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not about blaming the victim, it's about teaching the "victim" how to cope better with life. Apparently my choice of words doesn't make that clear to you, for which I'm sorry. I'll try to do better next time.

It doesn't come across that way. Again, I'm not responding to you personally. It comes across as "it's your own fault that your brother is always getting angry at you" or that it's your fault that your father is the way he is and that they all treat you the way they treat you. That is what I understood.

I generally don't ever ask for advice on forums and if I do, I accept and deal with what comes. However, I write personal things about myself, not to elicit advice, but to participate and share with other people. If I want advice, I usually make that clear in what I'm writing.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

First, I have to say, I did not mean you personally when I was talking about the fox. It actually happens that a lot of people do that, and the worst of the lot for me are my brother and father and if I was thinking of anyone when I wrote those things, it was of them. It was not meant for you. You are hardly sticking your nose in my business

Pfew!

It doesn't come across that way. Again, I'm not responding to you personally. It comes across as "it's your own fault that your brother is always getting angry at you" or that it's your fault that your father is the way he is and that they all treat you the way they treat you. That is what I understood.

Your brother getting angry at you is his fault, not yours. Anybody getting angry at you is their fault, not yours. All you can do is decide how you want to deal with that.

When my sister was a teenager, there were numerous fights between my dad and my sister every single day. The cause was always something nonsensical like my dad not finding the scissors in their usual location and then blaming my sister for not returning them to the proper spot, even when she didn't take him. My sister would get angry at him for always blaming her for everything (which, as far as I can understand, were his misguided attempts at trying to get her to be all she could be). Shouting matches would ensue and they got worse progressively.

One day my sister decided that she would be the wiser one and stopped adding fuel to the fire. So the fire burnt out.

Was she to blame? No. But she did have the power to change the situation.

(My dad is a good guy, really, but like all of us he is far from perfect)

If I want advice, I usually make that clear in what I'm writing.

Then I shall henceforth refrain from giving you any advice, unless you specifically ask for it.

('henceforth' is such a fancy word, don't you agree? thanks for giving me the opportunity to use it )

[Bliss Sage]

I guess it's nice and unexpected to know that people were not saying I was to blame for my brother's anger--one just assumes that, because it's what the person who is angry says, and then I thought others here were saying it too, basically agreeing with my brother about me being bad and difficult.

Unfortunately for me, the only way I could ever manage to deal with my dad and brother was to cut off contact and stay away. I can maintain email contact with my brother, but evidently that is the limit. I can't even do that much with my dad. Both of them must be experienced (separately) to be "appreciated," as they defy description.

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

Your brother getting angry at you is his fault, not yours. Anybody getting angry at you is their fault, not yours. All you can do is decide how you want to deal with that.

('henceforth' is such a fancy word, don't you agree? thanks for giving me the opportunity to use it )

Yes, it's a nice word . Like "wherefore" and "hereinafter"...used in law a lot...and Shakespeare .

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

Unfortunately for me, the only way I could ever manage to deal with my dad and brother was to cut off contact and stay away. I can maintain email contact with my brother, but evidently that is the limit. I can't even do that much with my dad. Both of them must be experienced (separately) to be "appreciated," as they defy description.

How incredibly sad for them that they do not get to experience your bliss. But yes, you must choose your own well being over theirs in this.

Separating yourself from your family is incredibly difficult, even when it is the right thing to do. You should be proud that you have the courage to set that in motion! It would be much easier to stay and suffer.

Here's hoping that visa comes through quickly!

Yes, it's a nice word . Like "wherefore" and "hereinafter"...used in law a lot...and Shakespeare .

Yep

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

I guess it's nice and unexpected to know that people were not saying I was to blame for my brother's anger

The crucial thing is that the MISERY that you feel, is only indirectly due to your brother's anger. The MISERY of the situation is, in truth, due to mental defilements that you have been put on this earth specifically to solve.

Is your brother objectively acting like a douche? Yes.

Does his acting this way directly cause the misery? No.

Let's say some guy insults me (just an example)

We can trace the behavior of my mind..

1. First I hear the sound (Sensory contact is made)
2. Then I recognize the sound as an insult (Perception)
3. Then I have an emotional reaction, loosely described as negative (I get a positive, negative or neutral feeling, in this case negative)
4. Then, because of this feeling, I crave solitude so I can avoid further insults. (Craving and aversion!)
5. Once I achieve solitude, I then cling to that solitude because I think solitude is protecting me from misery (Attachment)

This is actually what happens in my mind, within a few seconds, and with regular meditation I slowly become aware of the process as it happens.

Now the million dollar question is, where is the misery? We want to end the misery, the suffering.

My answer, that I've discovered with awareness through meditation, is that the misery is primarily in the craving. Every once in awhile, I'm insulted in the same way I've been insulted before, but there is no craving. Those times, there is still a small amount of misery, but it is FAR weaker than the misery I experience when I do crave. When the craving is present, I want to kill myself ( ) but when there is no craving, the pain is so much weaker that I can continue to go about my previous business unaffected.

If I give in to the craving and go find my solitude, then I cling to that solitude. From this clinging new misery is also created because inevitably there is a time later on where I have to consider the abandonment of that solitude. This immediately triggers anxiety and the misery is multiplied - it is STRONGER than the original misery from the craving. So if I have to choose, it's usually better to endure the misery of the original craving than to later on endure the misery of the clinging.

By giving in to my craving, I don't really end the misery. I end it temporarily - and there is something to be said for ending it temporarily - but eventually the misery finds me again in the form of clinging and it has just been multiplied. This is the law of karma in action.

The big question then is how to avoid the original craving, the original misery. If we can totally kill this main source of original misery, then the chain will be broken and the misery in my life will decrease by a substantial amount. The answer, for me, is:

Step 1. Attaining objective awareness of the craving & clinging & associated misery (through meditation and mindfulness)
Step 2. Having some compassion for myself, who is suffering
Step 3. Acknowledging to myself that this craving is not productive or necessary, since it just causes me misery, and that acting on this craving will just cause me future amplified misery, so it's pointless to act on it. I've been delivered this misery and I can't fix that now, so my lot in life at this moment is to nip it in the bud however painful it may be. Any other action will just make it worse for myself anyway.

Once I've repeated the above on multiple, separate occasions, the craving starts to come up less often in the first place. When the craving doesn't come up at all, that rocks because the misery is not nearly as painful. This is how I know I'm making progress, because the same kind of thing can happen to me that has happened before, but this time, there is no craving, so there is far less misery. So I'm decreasing the amount of misery in my life - sweet!

Also, a really strong motivation for me to do this kind of work on myself, is that as I decrease my own misery, it frees me up to actually have a positive impact on the world around me.

In my opinion, the above kind of work is literally the entire reason we were born. It seems like a cruel universe doesn't it? But I guess I'll leave the inherent evil ( ) of the world to another discussion.

[Bliss Sage]

Wow, that was all very well-thought-out and articulated (especially the part about my brother - funny, I never thought of him like that before ).

One thing I don't understand is why is there more misery when you are clinging or why do you say it has been multiplied? And a second thing, if your craving is, for example, just to never have to be in the presence of a certain person/s, which is sort of what mine is in this case, it seems doable without having to consider doing it again.

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

Separating yourself from your family is incredibly difficult, even when it is the right thing to do. You should be proud that you have the courage to set that in motion! It would be much easier to stay and suffer.

Leaving them physically was a piece of cake, I couldn't get away from them soon enough, or even out of the country soon enough, but all the bad stuff continued even across the ocean, until I finally just stopped all contact with my dad about 1½ years ago and I stopped seeing my brother, kept loose contact by email with him. I had always been afraid to cut off contact entirely and I have mild nagging feelings of guilt (about my dad--especially now that my brother has also cut contact with him), but...Something I never did understand was the idea that it is easier to stay and suffer. I have never stayed and suffered with someone indefinitely--I stayed with my dad as long as he made me stay. Wanted to go away earlier and farther, but he wouldn't let me go, not even to Canada.

Here's hoping that visa comes through quickly!

Thanks!

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

One thing I don't understand is why is there more misery when you are clinging or why do you say it has been multiplied?

Well, I can only speak for myself.

For me the sum total of misery if I immediately give in to my cravings is higher than if I just sit with craving as best I can, while trying to have compassion for myself and acknowledging that the craving is pointless.

When I crave, and then run away, I still had to suffer through misery during the craving. Then, later on, when I'm clinging to my solitude, inevitably something comes up and I have to go back into a situation where that same craving will manifest. Sometimes, I will get the same craving just from thought alone - not from doing anything physical but just by THINKING about doing something physical. Then, even if it's only for a minute, I'm back in my misery.

The only reason I noticed this about myself is because I focused on mindfulness. Once I've experienced the misery of the clinging like 100 times, it becomes painfully obvious to me (since I was observing myself with objective mindfulness) that it is less miserable to just deal with the initial craving rather than dealing with the later on clinging.

Simply put, the reason I know this stuff about myself, is because I spent time being mindful and observing myself. Mindfulness was the key to me realizing what I needed to do - which is just suck it up when it came to the original craving so I could be saved from the clinging later on.

This doesn't mean I go looking for craving. This doesn't mean I stick around people who hurt me. But when craving comes to me, as it inevitably seems to do no matter what, I don't convert the craving into clinging. I do those 3 steps instead and just sit with my craving. I try to feel compassion for my suffering, and also remember that this suffering is better than the alternative suffering.

So I stop the chain at the craving.

And the magical thing about stopping the chain at the craving, and doing those 3 steps, is that over time the craving just stops showing up in the first place!

And a second thing, if your craving is, for example, just to never have to be in the presence of a certain person/s, which is sort of what mine is in this case, it seems doable without having to consider doing it again.

If that works to reduce the misery, then it works

For me, what I find is that the misery tends to pop up all over the place and no matter how much I run I can't really escape it. The running seems to multiply it.

I don't think this is necessarily true for everyone though.. I think it depends entirely on the individual. Just gotta meditate and be mindful so you can learn how your own personal misery works, then you can take the necessary steps to get rid of that misery. If avoiding your family truly gets rid of the misery, then I would say there is nothing wrong at all with that solution.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

Something I never did understand was the idea that it is easier to stay and suffer.

Be glad. There are too many people out there who are in a bad situation and just cannot muster the courage to change it, because they fear that their new situation might not be all good. For them, facing the fear is harder than enduring the suffering.

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

Be glad. There are too many people out there who are in a bad situation and just cannot muster the courage to change it, because they fear that their new situation might not be all good. For them, facing the fear is harder than enduring the suffering.

That is what is so interesting about the world. You can have a million people face the identical situation, and get a million unique responses. Event X happens, one person feels love, one feels hate, one feels nothing, one feels anxiety, one laughs... the physical reality is almost meaningless next to the infinite variety of human configurations.

We're all working out our own customized karma... the only thing that everyone has in common is that everyone will benefit from some form of meditation. And in truth, this probably only applies to 99% of people, not everyone

[Bliss Sage]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

Be glad. There are too many people out there who are in a bad situation and just cannot muster the courage to change it, because they fear that their new situation might not be all good. For them, facing the fear is harder than enduring the suffering.

Those are people who haven't suffered enough, in my opinion.
I know people like that--I keep falling in love with those men, sometimes I think they will be the death of me.

Yossarian--personally, I quite enjoy my solitude almost all of the time. If I have to go into a situation where I'm not alone, it doesn't bother me, in fact, the only suffering I get with my solitude is from being alone 24/7. Ideally I would like a certain type of man and love to be with me and then I wouldn't even have that lonely sadness. The lonely sadness from solitude is infinitely less painful than what I experience with the male members of my biological family. And thankfully I think God broke the mold in all places when he made my dad and brother, so I can't find another one like them anywhere I go (uh oh, except my brother's kids ). Most everyone else in the world seems relatively normal to me and such people are not so difficult to deal with psychologically or emotionally.

Otherwise, it's clear you are light years ahead of me in your development. My life is too chaotic to do anything at all regularly. I would have to have a homebase and I'm just not where I want to be geographically right now, nevermind in any other realm. Indecision is another huge challenge I have. I used to meditate (my dad made me) every day twice a day, since I was about 12 up until my life started falling apart after leaving my father and it didn't help me like it helps you. (That doesn't mean I won't start doing it again, just not regularly, and maybe I'll do it regularly the same time I get a life--cook, clean, knit, bake, kiss my husband when he comes in the door from work and raise little kids according to a schedule like a normal woman does.) Nowadays, if I meditate, I do it by listening to the Silva mind centering meditation recording.

Look at everything that Angela has missed . She has a lot of catching up to do .

P.S. What misery I can't escape, which sounds like what you might be talking about, is actually the repercussions of my childhood and upbringing. That I can't escape and it follows me everywhere, worst of all to my relationships. I have been to therapists and all of that, but it never helped. I have been trying EFT in the last months and it seems to be working, but it feels like trying to melt an iceberg with a match. In the meantime, traumas keep building up. I wanted to take some time off from my traumas and hoped to come to my brother's to fix myself more diligently, but instead he doesn't want me staying here any longer and the very things I am doing EFT about are being reinforced and added to.

[Angela]

Bliss Sage, I think I understand what you want -- to write here in the forums as a way of working out your thoughts in writing, to share with others, to be part of the community, and not to get advice unless you request it. Am I understanding you correctly?

Again, just to be clear, at no time did I say "you are wrong, you should do or think x, it's your fault." (I'm not a believer in fault, shame, or blame at all, no how.) For some reason, you hear me saying that even when I specifically say otherwise. (must be the law of attraction -- you get what you focus on! )

What I do do, though, is to introduce the possibility of taking 100% responsibility, looking boldly at your thoughts, and the possibility of generating something new that works better in creating a life you love. No, THAT's advice! I'm just like Christian with his EFT. And I will try my best to withhold it going forward, unless you ask for it.

I can't guarantee I won't slip up, though. I apologize in advance if I spill.