Why it does not pay to be Shy

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by Spiritual

Dude you got a hell of a lotta premade believes that are just so FAR from the truth. I can not judge your true personality, if it's mere outgoing and people can't handle it, you've been hanging out with the wrong lot. If your true personality means that you only want to have the attention fixated on you and what to be in the spotlight, than that is not your true personality either.

Being outgoing and selfconfident will far from make folks insult you. I can understand your experience taught you that, but it really is far from the truth.

It really just depends how it's expressed. I have plenty of fake personalities that people enjoy and downright love, but they are fake, and it takes me a lot of effort to put on those faces and I don't enjoy doing that. A lot of them are very sarcastic and negative and give me bad vibes. People seem to love sarcasm and insincerity. Or alternately, people love the guy who is an alpha-male violent jerk. And by violent I don't mean physical violence, I mean emotional/mental violence. In the past I've put on that face and girls love it, and guys respect it. I don't enjoy doing it though so I don't do it anymore.

My natural personality is uninhibited and doesn't crave attention, but people downright don't like it. I can't pretend to know exactly why but I guess it's just because it's too "warm" or enthusiastic or positive or something. This "natural" personality is pretty bubbly, warm, optimistic. Think Ned Flanders. Why does everybody hate Ned Flanders? He seems like the happiest guy in Springfield, but for whatever reason people hate him for it.

And you're saying that shy girls are cute, but really I couldn't disagree more with that.

Everyone has their personal preference. My point wasn't that "all guys" think shy girls are cute. Just that lots do. How many girls find the shy guy cute though? Even the shy girls are attracted to the jocks.

[Spiritual]

My natural personality is uninhibited and doesn't crave attention, but people downright don't like it. I can't pretend to know exactly why but I guess it's just because it's too "warm" or enthusiastic or positive or something. This "natural" personality is pretty bubbly, warm, optimistic. Think Ned Flanders. Why does everybody hate Ned Flanders? He seems like the happiest guy in Springfield, but for whatever reason people hate him for it.

I don't know Ned Flanders, but I think I can understand your true personality. There is a difference between being warm, fun, optimistic and downright hyper. People mostly enjoy to hang out with people who have similar worldviews. And since most people are quite stuck in "reality" they are annoyed by folks running around "LIFE IS JUST AWESOMMEEE", when they are just stuck in the same **** every day.

So does this mean you can't be happy, alive and enthusiastic? No ofcourse not, but first of all you have to hang out with the right people. People who are optimistic themselves, who love life. There are plenty of these folks out there, but if you only radiate your fake personalities you will also attract people matching those fake ones. Secondly, you don't have to have a "mask", you can have your own personality but then switch between certain degrees of it.

For example: I really enjoy informal talks, having good laughs and just enjoying the things around me. But being in a business environment or around more serious folks, it's not always appropriate to shout out the best jokes and talk to everyone about how their holiday was. But that doesn't mean I can still smile and make some simple jokes in a conversation with someone. I can still talk about them in an informal way, but less obvious.

It isn't like you have to be totally THIS in one situation and THAT in an other situation. But I recognize your problem, I did have many masks before aswell. Yet after a while, when I got more selfconfident, understood myself moer and enjoyed my own presence, I started finding my true personality and just be that which I wanted to be. It's a conscious choice, and what I've found out is that people either like me or they get annoyed by me, and that's just fine with me.

How many girls find the shy guy cute though? Even the shy girls are attracted to the jocks.

Just as many as the number of shy girls being attracted to jocks. Plenty of girls out there who are looking for a shy, but sweet guy. But don't mistake shyness for autism! Being shy doesn't mean you can't have a normal conversation with someone, it just means you're not feeling to comfortable yet, which is all fine.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by yossarian

BTW a hell of a lot of nerdy guys find shy girls cute. It's not really considered a negative trait. Shyness for a guy though is social suicide. You can see that in this thread for instance, all the guys are into Bliss Sage the shy girl Shy girls = cute. Shy guys = creepy/feminine.

I don't agree. Many women find shy boys very cute. I don't see anything creepy/feminine in shy men. All combinations are possible, it's a question of individual choice/taste.

[Spiritual]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

I don't agree. Many women find shy boys very cute. I don't see anything creepy/feminine in shy men. All combinations are possible, it's a question of individual choice/taste.

Thank you ma'am! I'm glad a woman came in and proved the opposite to be true.

[Rose of Cairo]

Oh, and I'd even like to add: not only shy women find shy men cute. I know some women who are not in the slightest shy and are fond of shy boys, they find them soooo sweet.

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by Spiritual

I don't know Ned Flanders, but I think I can understand your true personality. There is a difference between being warm, fun, optimistic and downright hyper. People mostly enjoy to hang out with people who have similar worldviews. And since most people are quite stuck in "reality" they are annoyed by folks running around "LIFE IS JUST AWESOMMEEE", when they are just stuck in the same **** every day.

Yeah I agree. I just don't buy into people's ideas that their life is so awful. Someone can tell me "I'm so stressed my job sucks and my kids are a burden and I don't have all the stuff I want," and my natural response is, "Get a grip! Think of the Etheiopians who are starving to death, your life is fine and you are completely safe and untouchable. Relax and enjoy yourself."

People don't appreciate that reaction, so I repress myself. This leads people to think I'm shy.

So does this mean you can't be happy, alive and enthusiastic? No ofcourse not, but first of all you have to hang out with the right people. People who are optimistic themselves, who love life. There are plenty of these folks out there, but if you only radiate your fake personalities you will also attract people matching those fake ones. Secondly, you don't have to have a "mask", you can have your own personality but then switch between certain degrees of it.

You're definitely right. And to a large extent this what I've done in the last few years, but mainly it just makes me dread social situations because I get mainly bad reactions, hehe. It's quite an uphill battle to find these people who share my outlook... in the sense that I haven't really found any.

For example: I really enjoy informal talks, having good laughs and just enjoying the things around me. But being in a business environment or around more serious folks, it's not always appropriate to shout out the best jokes and talk to everyone about how their holiday was. But that doesn't mean I can still smile and make some simple jokes in a conversation with someone. I can still talk about them in an informal way, but less obvious.

This is what I do as well and it makes me depressed because I'm basically repressing my natural joy. I can't handle those sober business meetings where people whine about meaningless garbage and invent problems that aren't actually problems and spin their wheels and jockey for position and try to dominate others while avoiding being dominated. Just being in that atmosphere - and repressing my natural buoyancy - makes me want to hang myself. Sure, I could just be myself, but then I get cut down and that isn't very fun either. So it's like a catch-22 for me.

I basically avoid those situations.

Just as many as the number of shy girls being attracted to jocks. Plenty of girls out there who are looking for a shy, but sweet guy. But don't mistake shyness for autism! Being shy doesn't mean you can't have a normal conversation with someone, it just means you're not feeling to comfortable yet, which is all fine.

Lots of girls have fantasies about the "shy" guy that is deep and sensitive and artistic, like Johnny Depp. But IMO that is not shy.

Shy is where you have nothing to say because you don't want to express your real personality due to fear. Shy is when you get embarassed and stare at your feet because of all the times you've been degraded when you open yourself to social situations.

I agree with the other poster (the musician, the ladies man who all the forum-women are fawning over) that there is a difference between shy and introversion. Shy is an expression of fear, introversion just means you enjoy your own company.

My actual personality when I'm not feeling sorrowful (which happens to everybody from time to time) is sort of like an irreverent Ned Flanders. That is NOT sexy. I'm ok with not being sexy, but I mean it's all pretty inconvenient. Shy girls definitely don't like me, and neither do most normal girls. Ned Flanders is NOT alpha.

[yossarian]

Here's a question for ya:

If you need to enact your natural personality in order to meet the people who fit with your natural personality, how do you deal with the pain that accompanies your natural personality?

Because that is my situation. If I act like myself around most people, I literally am bringing the pain upon myself because I'm just asking to be degraded and abused.

To me the barrier is the pain. I need some advil or something until I'm able to find people who "fit" me. Cause right now I basically fake, or hide. Neither is a solution.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by yossarian

Lots of girls have fantasies about the "shy" guy that is deep and sensitive and artistic, like Johnny Depp. But IMO that is not shy.

Shy is where you have nothing to say because you don't want to express your real personality due to fear. Shy is when you get embarassed and stare at your feet because of all the times you've been degraded when you open yourself to social situations.

I agree with the other poster (the musician, the ladies man who all the forum-women are fawning over) that there is a difference between shy and introversion. Shy is an expression of fear, introversion just means you enjoy your own company.

Again, I don't agree.

Of course there's a difference between shy and introvert. I'm talking about shy guys, those who are afraid of showing themselves as they are. And I repeat, many women find such guys cute.

There's a guy I know from university who's shy. When I look at him, he blushes and looks out of the window and has trouble speaking. He's not in the slightest deep and artistic. He's a computer scientist thinking about programming all the time and his hobby is sports. And, you won't believe it, ALL girls I know at university are totally fond of that guy!

I don't know if the reason is his fear or that his great personality shines through even though he's afraid to show it. In my eyes, it's the latter. Plus, fear is not something a man should be despised for. Maybe that's a male idea, that men have to be strong and show no fear. But women think differently about it. At least, many of them do. A man can be scared AND very attractive

[yossarian]

I used to be that guy.

Here's the thing... the girls are "fond" of him but how many would actually take it to the next level?

Girls tend to get with the guys they hate. You must have noticed this.. you have the violent rockstar who quite literally treats women like crap, and he is the guy women go home with. Then you have the "nice friend" sensitive guy who all the women say they like, but again, when push comes to shove he is left holding her purse while she has an exciting rendezvous with the violent jock.

Here's the catch-22, if that computer scientist could work up the nerve to actually tell a girl how he feels, he would no longer be shy, and therefore no longer be cute. It's really not healthy behavior. I basically AM that guy, btw. I'm older now so it's much less pronounced (plus I've learned to be a great faker which I'm not proud of) but that is basically me and it's not a fun life.

We computer scientists have a word for it, we call it the friend zone. It means unless we break out of that shy behavior we become 40-year-old virgins.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by yossarian

Girls tend to get with the guys they hate. You must have noticed this.. you have the violent rockstar who quite literally treats women like crap, and he is the guy women go home with. Then you have the "nice friend" sensitive guy who all the women say they like, but again, when push comes to shove he is left holding her purse while she has an exciting rendezvous with the violent jock.

oh no, not that stereotype again...
That is just not true!

Two girls I was studying with would have taken it to the next level with him immediately. (I don't know how many of the girls I did not talk to, but they were clearly fond of him as well) One of them even eagerly ran after him for quite a while. If I hadn't had a relationship at that time, I'd have tried too.

The point is, that guy was too scared to let anyone come too close. Maybe he simply had no interest, but I guess if he had been interested he would have been too afraid to show it anyway. I have some male friends who are shy, when they tell me they're interested in a girl, sometimes even I would not have noticed...

if that computer scientist could work up the nerve to actually tell a girl how he feels, he would no longer be shy, and therefore no longer be cute.

I don't believe that either. When such a guy tells you how he feels, that's an incredible compliment and shows that he's really serious about that. Not like those guys who tell every second girl how much they're into them. He would still be shy. You can show someone how you feel without saying it. You can also tell someone how you feel in a shy manner, with a lot of blushing and staring at your feet. That's cute


edit: hey, yossarian:

if (shyness > letting_come_close(someone) && wish_for_closeness == true)
{return -1; }
else
{return 0; }



shyness is not a bool, it's an unsigned int

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by yossarian

If I act like myself around most people, I literally am bringing the pain upon myself because I'm just asking to be degraded and abused.

How do you mean that exactly?

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

How do you mean that exactly?

I mean that if Ned Flanders openly acts like Ned Flanders, he gets abused. Now what Ned Flanders has that I don't have, is the courage to continue acting the way he does despite the abuse he receives. Ned Flanders doesn't even flinch. But I flinch.

I just noticed you live in Germany. From what I've heard it's a much more compassionate atmosphere. You may not realize how incredibly brutal and materialistic the North American TypeA culture is. I hear what you say about shy guys and I can see how that would be true, I just have never actually seen it play out in a way where the shy guy gets the girl.

[Rose of Cairo]

I think the point I was trying to make is that if the shy guy could allow more closeness, he would get more girls. It's often not the girls who are not interested but the shy guy who can't avail himself of the opportunity of letting it happen.

It's not only talking about it or asking out, it has also a lot to do with body language. Shy guys tend to send many mixed signals, like "yes I'm interested, but I'm scared, and I want, but I don't want, and don't you come too close!" So what can a girl do in such a situation? Nothing but think "well... too bad..." We don't want to rape you either!

It's true that I don't know how it is in America. I can speak only for (western) Europe.

I don't know any Ned Flanders, would you please explain to me with words how you behave, and why this is doomed to be answered with abuse and degradation?

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

I think the point I was trying to make is that if the shy guy could allow more closeness, he would get more girls. It's often not the girls who are not interested but the shy guy who can't avail himself of the opportunity of letting it happen.

It's not only talking about it or asking out, it has also a lot to do with body language. Shy guys tend to send many mixed signals, like "yes I'm interested, but I'm scared, and I want, but I don't want, and don't you come too close!" So what can a girl do in such a situation? Nothing but think "well... too bad..." We don't want to rape you either!

Yeah I agree, this is why shy guys consider it such a curse. If they weren't shy, then they'd be able to get close.

I don't know any Ned Flanders, would you please explain to me with words how you behave, and why this is doomed to be answered with abuse and degradation?

Ned Flanders is a character on The Simpsons... you must get The Simpsons in Germany?



When I'm in a comfortable place where I don't fear getting abused I am a pretty happy, outgoing, generous, hardworking, carefree person who laughs a lot and doesn't really worry about anything or take things very seriously. I also have a pretty powerful moral ethic and so I don't harm other beings or commit emotional violence, manipulate, lie. I'm very committed to pacifism and non-violence of all kinds. This means mental, emotional, physical and any kinds of indirect violence. I've been a vegetarian for years, and everything I do I think about longterm consequences and how it will effect the whole world. This means I don't do things like litter or smoke.

I don't do these things because I aspire to be something or to look a certain way, I do them because they give me great joy and happiness. This joy and happiness, combined with pacifism and a strong moral code, seems to make me a big target for those who don't consider these things to be virtues. Homer Simpson abuses Ned Flanders in the same way that most people abuse me when I show them my true self.

[Bliss Sage]

Originally Posted by yossarian

BTW a hell of a lot of nerdy guys find shy girls cute. It's not really considered a negative trait. Shyness for a guy though is social suicide. You can see that in this thread for instance, all the guys are into Bliss Sage the shy girl

aww, thanks yossarian ... now shush, or you'll embarrass me

Originally Posted by Spiritual

I would just walsh over them, which is not bringing joy for her nor me.

(I'll just ignore the rest of that paragraph ). THANK YOU, this is exactly what I was trying to explain to Angela earlier.

When a male is shy it can be a great match with another shy girl, they have things in common and understand each other. But when there is a really outgoing male/female, and the partner is shy, it can be really horrible for the latter.

I agree! When your shy, what is one thing you do not do? You don't impose yourself on others, you don't compete with anyone else for attention, you don't force other people to listen to you, you don't try to shout above everyone else to be heard. Moreover, I think shy people tend to see what is going on in other people and actually care about it, for varying reasons, whereas people with dominant personalities are more occupied with what they're saying and doing and don't notice or care as much about what others are thinking or feeling about them. So, if you are with a dominant, loud, gregarious guy who is the "life of the party" and he is more interested in being the life of the party than paying attention to you, there is no good match. Additionally, he will drown you out. If I have a mild, sort of soft way of being, he will drown me out like fire-engine-red drowns out a pale pink. I just become an audience, even if a steady one, to his show. Maybe someone who is more like him could become part of his show.

[Spiritual]

I'm digging the moustache!

Anyways, you're constantly focussing on the suffering of abuse and such. I don't know how this is for you in practical sense. But I do know I've been targetted for being myself for a loooongg time aswell. And then it just stopped, and that was the moment I stopped caring.

Now in your area this can be very different, but then again, why don't you move to a better place where you have cool people around you who enjoy you for who you truly are? But I don't believe this is needed for you to just relax and enjoy your own personality.

You say you don't do the things like pacifism to become something, but just because it gives you joy. Yet you change your personality to be accepted by others..... quite a big contrast going on right there.
I can't be bothered by how others think of me and how I choose to act. I might ask people for feedback from time to time, but then I can chose whether or not I can work with that feedback.

But if someone doesn't accept me for who I want to be, the contact is over. We are not here on the planet to be liked or accepted by others! The fact that you don't accept your own true personality is reflecting back to you in others. The non-caring attitude does SO MUCH about the way others respond to you.

Stop taking **** from others when you are your true self. If others have problems with who you are, **** 'em and move on to better people!

[Spiritual]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

(I'll just ignore the rest of that paragraph ). THANK YOU, this is exactly what I was trying to explain to Angela earlier.

The fact that I'm not attracted to you doesn't mean you aren't a very cool and fun person! I can only appreciate your honesty and openess. And because of this I think it's better for us to not be in a relationship. I want you to be happy!

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by yossarian

you must get The Simpsons in Germany?

First I don't have any TV, and second I don't like the Simpsons. I always want to kick Homer's butt when I see him. (But I do love Futurama )

What you said about how you really are sounds all great to me! I don't see where the problem is. Who cares about what some Homer-like dumbasses think?? Tell them to get lost. Or move to Europe

I don't understand why you change your way of being to please others. That's doing violence to yourself! Why do you inflict such a pain to yourself, if you're a pacifist and sensitive to emotional violence? You're inflicting pain and violating someone's personality. (your own, but that counts!)

And I also think that you attract what you focus on (LoA). You're thinking of rejection and abuse quite a lot. So that's what you see in your life. Focus on being true to yourself and living your personality in a positive way. My advice.

[dalang]

Originally Posted by yossarian

I don't do these things because I aspire to be something or to look a certain way, I do them because they give me great joy and happiness. This joy and happiness, combined with pacifism and a strong moral code, seems to make me a big target for those who don't consider these things to be virtues. Homer Simpson abuses Ned Flanders in the same way that most people abuse me when I show them my true self.

Although I don't watch The Simpsons that regularly, I see a difference between the traits you describe for yourself and Ned Flanders. In my perception, people don't hate him because he's a pacifist or has a strong moral code or enjoys life, but because he seems obsessed with religion and his ideas about how things have to be and expects everyone to agree with him. He practically forces people around him to conform to his ideas and perspective of the world which makes being with him awkward for everyone. I wouldn't want to be around that guy! He is simply not acknowledging other people for who they are.

Yet I doubt anyone has a problem with you because of the things you described. On the contrary, I believe most people will admire you for that (I do). There are probably other reasons for your perceptions. I get the feeling that you are over generalizing. There are people who attack at the first sign of weakness, and they are, in a sense, very 'loud', thus able to take up much of ones reality if one lets that happen (which humans have a tendency to do).

I just noticed you live in Germany. From what I've heard it's a much more compassionate atmosphere. You may not realize how incredibly brutal and materialistic the North American TypeA culture is.

Germany has been called one of the unhealthiest places to live for people with social anxiety by several social p