My Girlfriend wants me to go on Family Xmas Trip

[mlc82]

and I really, really do not want to for a multitude of reasons-

(sorry in advance for this droning on and on, it's 2am and I'm wide awake)

#1 being that I currently have no real source of income and am trying to get started with a self employed business which I don't expect to do much until Jan 1 and after. Also trying to think up some ideas to create some temporary income until then- I have about $4,000 saved up right now, but am about to have to tap into it due to my checking account being nearly gone and really don't want to use much of my savings!

#2- I just do not want to go and spend 2 days (this is in another state) on someone elses' family vacation- I don't even want to go to many of my own family gatherings for more than an hour or so.

The thing is, for some reason I can't fully understand, she's really upset that I don't want to go along on this trip that she wants to "share with me". I hate seeing her upset but really don't feel bad about this at all, but am wondering if I'm truly being horribly unreasonable or not.

I have to be honest as well, that first off, I just hate going on trips. It's a pain in the butt to me, all that waiting at the airport, waiting for the jet to leave, waiting for your luggage, waiting for the car, and so on and on. I also know that the whole time, I'm going to be thinking "I need to be at home doing something to further myself right now, not running off for a couple of days to have fun and blow money", which should put me on edge as well. Travelling will be fun to me when I've established some passive income, don't feel like the walls are caving in on me (also known as going broke), and thus won't be so horrified of the idea of blatantly wasting time.

I also, after a wonderful (extreme sarcasm and long story) experience with the family of a previous girlfriend of 2 years, don't honestly want much of anything to do with the family/family politics of anyone I date, ever again. I don't plan to marry at all right now (she knows this), and if I ever do, it will be LONG in the future and that's really the only scenario where I think I'd actually care about really getting close to the girl's family. Don't get me wrong, I've met her parents and gone to dinner with them and all, not like I shun them or anything of that sort, but really don't want to spend two days getting in with the whole family.

That leads to my next qualm. The question "What kind of school/work do you do?". I dread this conversation thanks to having it over and over with my own parents, and really don't imagine the reaction will be much different when I answer "Well, mainly just doing what I do for free online now". I have my own close family to make me feel like my entrepreneur ideas are an insane fantasy, and that one of these days I'll finally just have to crack down and be damned to employment until I'm 50 or 60 (also known as "getting a real job, or steady job, you get the idea), and that's enough for me. I just don't even want to bother with the whole conversation that seems inevitable.

I have a multitude of both financial and personal reasons as to why I don't want anything to do with this trip, and I'm honestly not sure if I'm really trying to ask a question here or just venting by writing this out and hitting the "submit" button. I'm not angry, but it does bother me that my girl takes this so personally (although she isn't angry either) and can't seem to grasp my reasoning.

Like I said above, am I making any sense here, or do I just sound selfish and unreasonable?

[Michael Chui]

Two conflicting responses:

1) You have no reason to go, and apparently many reasons not to.

2) Two days is not going to change your momentum, your financial situation, or anything else.

2a) Re: "Well, mainly just doing what I do for free online now"...

This is a horrible pitch. You should spend some time polishing how you explain your entreprenurial concept and learn to pitch it to people in a way that conveys your passion in the idea. I mean, really: I support any and all self-starter companies, but hearing it described that way just makes me cringe.

Check these out, take some inspiration:
- How to Change the World: The Art of the Start Video
- Escape from Cubicle Nation
- Seth's Blog

Even if you don't win various parents over, yours or hers, at least you won't have this melancholic attitude as often.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by mlc82

The question "What kind of school/work do you do?". I dread this conversation thanks to having it over and over with my own parents, and really don't imagine the reaction will be much different when I answer "Well, mainly just doing what I do for free online now".

Speaking as one (part-time) entrepreneur to another, you really need a better sales pitch! And you should, in fact, be itching to tell about your entrepreneurial activities at every opportunity! Getting potential clients excited about what you provide is a big part of running your business and family trips serve as an excellent excuse to practice those skills!

For an example of an excellent pitch, just look at the top of the page. Do you think any of us would be here and reading Steve's blog if he had put "I write stuff for free online" up instead of "Personal Development for Smart People"?

As for whether or not you should go, I'd say there is no reason for you to go if you don't want to (and your gf ought to respect that) - but then I'd also say that you'd do well to face this particular fear of yours and overcome it, as it will also benefit your business in the long run.

[m18pak]

I think you should try to explain to her why you don't want to go. If you two can't even communicate effectively about an issue as small as this then you two will definitely have some problems in the future.

Just my two cents.

Also, have you tried asking your girlfriend just why it means so much to her that you go?

[NotesMaeve]

Originally Posted by mlc82

#1 being that I currently have no real source of income and am trying to get started with a self employed business which I don't expect to do much until Jan 1 and after. Also trying to think up some ideas to create some temporary income until then- I have about $4,000 saved up right now, but am about to have to tap into it due to my checking account being nearly gone and really don't want to use much of my savings!

I'm so feeling you.

Originally Posted by mlc82

#2- I just do not want to go and spend 2 days (this is in another state) on someone elses' family vacation- I don't even want to go to many of my own family gatherings for more than an hour or so.

The thing is, for some reason I can't fully understand, she's really upset that I don't want to go along on this trip that she wants to "share with me". I hate seeing her upset but really don't feel bad about this at all, but am wondering if I'm truly being horribly unreasonable or not.

Had my fiance and I not made plans months in advance to be in different parts of the country on Xmas, I'd be upset if he didn't want to be with me on the holidays.

Originally Posted by mlc82

I have to be honest as well, that first off, I just hate going on trips. It's a pain in the butt to me, all that waiting at the airport, waiting for the jet to leave, waiting for your luggage, waiting for the car, and so on and on. I also know that the whole time, I'm going to be thinking "I need to be at home doing something to further myself right now, not running off for a couple of days to have fun and blow money", which should put me on edge as well. Travelling will be fun to me when I've established some passive income, don't feel like the walls are caving in on me (also known as going broke), and thus won't be so horrified of the idea of blatantly wasting time.

Not a very good attitude about abundance! Besides, I consider spending time with my S/O to be VERY productive.

Originally Posted by mlc82

I also, after a wonderful (extreme sarcasm and long story) experience with the family of a previous girlfriend of 2 years, don't honestly want much of anything to do with the family/family politics of anyone I date, ever again. I don't plan to marry at all right now (she knows this), and if I ever do, it will be LONG in the future and that's really the only scenario where I think I'd actually care about really getting close to the girl's family. Don't get me wrong, I've met her parents and gone to dinner with them and all, not like I shun them or anything of that sort, but really don't want to spend two days getting in with the whole family.

This "girl" values closeness in her life and living without boundaries, so it seems. You value segregation. See a problem? Take a look at whether or not you need to renegotiate the relationship and maybe give a little if you can.

[Lola]

Here's the various, random thoughts that jumped in my head while reading your post. FWIW .

I totally understand the money issue. Valid point and one you have a right to consider - IF it's really a valid point and not a convenient excuse. And yeah, like the guys said, you need to come up with a description of your career plans that you feel proud of (and not just for this situation).

Sounds to me like you're projecting a)your issues with your own family and b)your experiences with a former girlfriend's family onto the prospect of spending time with this particular girl's family. Think about that and see if you're really objectively and fairly considering the proposition.

And consider the possibility that your girl values spending time with you, perhaps holiday time is especially important to her, and consider the possibility that she feels hurt that you place a greater value on money and protecting yourself from potential discomfort than her.

Honestly? It sounds to me like you just absolutely don't want to go and are fishing for *reasons* to back yourself up. If it's something you truly do not want to do then don't. You absolutely have a right to (not) do so. But OWN that decision and be prepared for potential fallout.

[cdn2wheeler]

Much good advice and insight here. My $0.02, for what it's worth:

• The money issue is a real and serious one. (Well, it's a serious as you want it to be, I suppose.) Unlike some others in the thread, I don't get the sense that you're using it as an excuse. But, dude, you really need to come up with a better pitch. Others have made some good suggestions on that so I won't further clutter the mix;
• Seeing this upcoming holiday through the lenses of a previous, somewhat ugly, historical situation is just plain wrong. But you already know that;
• There's some discussion here that this holiday may be very important to your current gf, and that you should be expected to aquiesce to her request. I see it differently (surprise, surprise). If it's that important to you that you don't go, I submit that it's just as important to her that she understand that. Relationships are all about give and take, and that includes both sides;
• Lastly, m18pak made an excellent point about communications between the two of you. This is an excellent touch-point about how you and your gf communicate. No matter what happens in this scenario - whether you go or not - somebody's gonna be pi$$ed off. If you go, be there 100% for your gf and her family. If you don't, I would hope and trust that your gf realizes how important it is that you stay home and doesn't bring it up over and over and over again.

OK, so maybe that's $0.05 worth...

[Lola]

Originally Posted by cdn2wheeler

There's some discussion here that this holiday may be very important to your current gf, and that you should be expected to aquiesce to her request. I see it differently (surprise, surprise). If it's that important to you that you don't go, I submit that it's just as important to her that she understand that. Relationships are all about give and take, and that includes both sides;

I hope you didn't get that from what I said because it's not what I meant. I'm not advocating mlc92 to *aquiesce* to his girl. I AM suggesting that he view the prospect through the lens of objectivity rather than history, and that he discuss and consider her feelings and determine which carries more weight with him - his desires or hers.

Originally Posted by cdn2wheeler

If you go, be there 100% for your gf and her family.

Thanks for saying this - it's something I left out. If you DO decide to go, go wholeheartedly and cheerfully. There's nothing worse than someone doing you a *favor* by doing something they don't want to do and then making you pay for it by being a grumpy, wet blanket the whole time. (Voice of MUCH experience!) Personally, I'd rather do things on my own and have fun than have someone hanging around that obviously doesn't want to be there.

[cdn2wheeler]

Originally Posted by Lola

I hope you didn't get that from what I said because it's not what I meant. I'm not advocating mlc92 to *aquiesce* to his girl. I AM suggesting that he view the prospect through the lens of objectivity rather than history, and that he discuss and consider her feelings and determine which carries more weight with him - his desires or hers.

OK, fair enough. All I'm suggesting is that she makes the same determination, viewed objectively rather than through the lenses of her own desires; is his well-being and current financial status more or less important to her than her desire to have him along for the holiday?

I go back and forth with this as I sit here. But clearly, if nothing else, this scenario is an excellent lesson to learn how the two will communicate with one another. No matter what happens, someone's going to feel like they didn't get their own way. How they manage to work through it will speak volumes about the potential future - or not - of the relationship.

[Lola]

Originally Posted by cdn2wheeler

All I'm suggesting is that she makes the same determination, viewed objectively rather than through the lenses of her own desires; is his well-being and current financial status more or less important to her than her desire to have him along for the holiday?

I agree that would be the optimal situation - both participants objectively considering the others' view. And if she were the one here asking for input, we could share this with her. But she's not. mlc82 is the one seeking feedback.

Originally Posted by cdn2wheeler

I go back and forth with this as I sit here. But clearly, if nothing else, this scenario is an excellent lesson to learn how the two will communicate with one another. No matter what happens, someone's going to feel like they didn't get their own way. How they manage to work through it will speak volumes about the potential future - or not - of the relationship.

Well said. It's never really about a Christmas trip, is it.

[mej023]

Dude - you are not seeing the big picture.

This trip has been arranged for you for a specific purpose. Unfortunately, you just don't get to see the reason why (yet).

Later, you will probably have an AHA! moment and realize that the trip was a necessary link to your perfect destiny.

You created it so tweak it a little so that you get maximum enjoyment out of it.

Hint: Maybe there is something or someone at that location that you absolutely must experience in order to get to where your going. Keep your eyes wide open!

[mlc82]

Well, the money part DOES terrify me, and I don't mean it as just an excuse. Besides trying to start my small business, I'm not sure what else to do right now (other than get a job again, which I really want to avoid if possible, and I really am confident that my business will pick up once Xmas is past) and it's wrecking my sleep at night. I just feel like I'm losing it financially right now, and this is also a horrible time of year for what I do (Thanksgiving to Xmas roughly).

I didn't mean "I do stuff for free online" as a sales pitch as that ISN'T what I'm gearing up for, but it's what I've been doing for now since business is pretty dead. What I meant was that I'm absolutely sick and tired of even speaking of any entrepreneur goals I have to anyone over the age of 40, because I really don't think I can handle the usual responses to them from people who dont' know any other way than "go to school, get married, get a good job, have kids, retire" with the way things are going (financially) right now. My Dad (and Mom, and uncle, and several other close family members who I'm very close to) loves to tell me all about how I should go in the Navy, or join the border patrol, or work on the railroad, "and then retire when I'm in my 50's". I'm 25 right now, and that sounds like pure hell to me- just tell me where the nearest tall building I can jump off of is if doing the same thing day in and out for as long as I've been alive is what I have to look forward to, you know?


Otherwise, you guys are also right in that I just really, really do not want to go (and I've said this, in a 100% blunt way- I'm not much of a sugar-coater). Both because I don't feel like getting in the way of someone elses' family time (and that's what it feels like to me), and because even if this weren't an Xmas trip but just a "go out of state for fun" kind of thing, it isn't something I would want to do at all right now. The family trip part does make me feel REALLY awkward though, partly from bad past experience that I shouldn't be dragging in but can't help it, and I also honestly just don't want to leave right now. Going on trips every 2-3 years is about all I like to do.

The one thing that does kind of annoy me is one fundamental difference between both my girlfriend and I, and I've also noticed, myself and most people (including many friends) that I know. The idea of dragging someone along to something I know full well they DON'T want to do just isn't something that would ever seem like fun to me. Part of this is purely selfish I suppose in that I couldn't have as much fun knowing that the person I'd brought along was miserable, but I also don't like putting people in the situation of having to feel like a bad friend/companion for saying no. I'm also the type who will happily go to a movie or something alone if I want to see one that my friends don't, instead of trying like hell to drag them to it as well. I've always been a loner and I'm an only child, so go figure .


Please note as well, this isn't something I had agreed to in the past and just changed my mind on recently. I DID however make the mistake, of, when first asked if I would go, probably at least 6 months ago, make the mistake of saying "I don't know, maybe, it depends on what's going on with me at the time", which apparently came out to her as "Yes!". Girls seem to do this alot, and I'm sure guys do it as well, but I don't date guys.

[mlc82]

[QUOTE=NotesMaeve;133487]

Not a very good attitude about abundance! Besides, I consider spending time with my S/O to be VERY productive.

[QUOTE]


Eh, I'm not a big fan of the "abundance mindset" right now... I had it before, I really did, and then it ended up costing me nearly $6,000 with nothing to show for it. I'm 25 years old and barely making it on my own right now, and that isn't acceptable to me and makes me feel like crap about myself even though it shouldn't. Sorry if I sound blatantly negative here, I'm really not normally like this, but it's been a really, really bad month money-wise.

[seeker5]

The one thing that does kind of annoy me is one fundamental difference between both my girlfriend and I, and I've also noticed, myself and most people (including many friends) that I know. The idea of dragging someone along to something I know full well they DON'T want to do just isn't something that would ever seem like fun to me. Part of this is purely selfish I suppose in that I couldn't have as much fun knowing that the person I'd brought along was miserable, but I also don't like putting people in the situation of having to feel like a bad friend/companion for saying no. I'm also the type who will happily go to a movie or something alone if I want to see one that my friends don't, instead of trying like hell to drag them to it as well. I've always been a loner and I'm an only child, so go figure .

I'm the same way, although I'm not an only child. I'd much rather go alone then take someone who doesn't want to go but feels forced to go.

If I were you, I wouldn't go, pure and simple. If she doesn't understand, then let her get some other guy who'll allow himself to be dragged all over.

[mlc82]

Originally Posted by m18pak

I think you should try to explain to her why you don't want to go. If you two can't even communicate effectively about an issue as small as this then you two will definitely have some problems in the future.

Just my two cents.

Also, have you tried asking your girlfriend just why it means so much to her that you go?

I have, and it just doesn't click- when it comes to emotional issues I just don't understand her. She's VERY feminine, and I'm not in the slightest, and the same way I can't understand how she can get so worked up emotionally about some things (not necessarily dealing with me), she doesn't seem to get how I can generally keep my cool and not care about things that "should make me mad". I guess it's the price I pay for being so attracted to very feminine women, when I certainly can't understand them half of the time.

I know she likes to see her family because most of them live halfway across the country, whereas I see mine several times a year and they all live close by. Honestly though, if I were halfway across the country from my family right now, I think I'd just rejoice- I love them like no one else, but still have that nasty catch of feeling like I need to hurry up and accomplish what they think I should accomplish, can't help but feel like my Dad thinks I'm a loser/lazy honestly, etc. The 2nd part of which really drives me insane if I think about it. I don't know how many times I've heard "When are you going to get and keep a full time job?" when I've honestly never wanted one- however I've never wanted to be a lazy leech either, and I honestly don't think he understands that there are other options out there than just those two.

[mlc82]

Originally Posted by seeker5

I'm the same way, although I'm not an only child. I'd much rather go alone then take someone who doesn't want to go but feels forced to go.

If I were you, I wouldn't go, pure and simple. If she doesn't understand, then let her get some other guy who'll allow himself to be dragged all over.

Feminine women I've dated tend to REALLY get upset with me a lot, and not because I'm deliberately trying to anger them. In turn, they also seem to be really, really attracted to me, and I think it's because I won't allow myself to be "dragged along". I tend to be really independent and self centered (I think there's a definite line between "self centered" and "selfish", though some would disagree I know), and for some reason they really seem to like that even though they claim that they don't.

[Ilya]

mlc82, let's face it you are scared and low on resources. You just don't have enough things to give. It is a nasty situation by itself, but it also makes you negative and narrows your outlook. It might affect your judgment and you might be making the wrong decisions. People tend to miss opportunities when they are scared.
And this trip is just one problem that highlights and only because your girlfriend is upset. It's not about you being selfish or wrong. In any case you are hurting her. It would be a long story if I tried to give you all the reasons why does she feel hurt. I'd just say that most girlfriends do expect to spend the holidays with their boyfriends. It is a natural thing. And unless you explain your reasons absolutely clear to her, she would probably imagine horrible things about why don't you want to go with her. First of all she probably thinks that you don't love her. If this is not enough, she probably thinks a hundred other horrible reasons why you don't go with her. Including the fantasy that you are terminally ill and going to die while she is on vacation.

For whatever reason, you are hurting her. If you don't go you will offend her. So you have a simple binary choice. Either you are going to offend your girlfriend or you are not. If you offend her, be prepared that this will be the end of your relationship. Maybe not, but it is probable.
As people have already pointed out, the trip is not going to affect your situation is any drastic way. So it's your call. Weight your financial and social fears versus the price you will have to pay for offending your girlfriend. Then make a choice and prepare to live with the consequences. Be a man, as they say.

One final thought. In the situation when I'm waiting for some important event, and can't do anything about it (as you with your business), I try to go out and switch my mind to something else, even if it is arguing with my SO's parents. It is still better than sitting there alone and poisoning yourself with fears. You need to take a rest, and the best rest is switching to something different from what you do.

Whatever your decision, you get my respect for it. Good luck.

[NotesMaeve]

Originally Posted by mlc82

Eh, I'm not a big fan of the "abundance mindset" right now... I had it before, I really did, and then it ended up costing me nearly $6,000 with nothing to show for it. I'm 25 years old and barely making it on my own right now, and that isn't acceptable to me and makes me feel like crap about myself even though it shouldn't. Sorry if I sound blatantly negative here, I'm really not normally like this, but it's been a really, really bad month money-wise.

Learn to hustle, baby. Part of abundance is knowing that you just have to step out the door and make that money. You have to know how to hustle your target audience.

What's your business? You're frightened to death of selling to the point where you won't even tell us! Come on!

[mlc82]

Originally Posted by NotesMaeve

Learn to hustle, baby. Part of abundance is knowing that you just have to step out the door and make that money. You have to know how to hustle your target audience.

What's your business? You're frightened to death of selling to the point where you won't even tell us! Come on!

Oh not at all, I'm a self employed personal trainer. The holiday season is just generally a horrible time for this business, as people are going out of town, gorging on food, etc, wanting to do anything BUT worry about exercise and proper eating. I've done this for several years now, this is just the first time I'll try solely doing it as my primary means of income.

Edit: I should add that I knew already about this month being just dead, but recently had several unexpected bills pop up which really set me back in the money I was planning to get through the month with without butchering my savings account.

[NotesMaeve]

^^^ What if you tried marketing specifically to AVOID holiday weight gain? I just joined a gym to stay in shape.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by mlc82

Oh not at all, I'm a self employed personal trainer. The holiday season is just generally a horrible time for this business, as people are going out of town, gorging on food, etc, wanting to do anything BUT worry about exercise and proper eating. I've done this for several years now, this is just the first time I'll try solely doing it as my primary means of income.

Oh, so you're going to have a dead month this month, followed by a VERY heavy month next month? So this is like the calm before the storm, the next few months you'll probably be too busy to enjoy relaxing much? If so, maybe you should relax while you can, before the busy season starts.

Ilya, what you wrote about him hurting his girlfriend, could be read the opposite way. She's hurting him by insisting to go away to family and dragging him along. She could simply stay with him there. Also, I feel it's more like "She's feeling hurt", not "He's hurting her".

[cdn2wheeler]

Originally Posted by seeker5

She's hurting him by insisting to go away to family and dragging him along. She could simply stay with him there. Also, I feel it's more like "She's feeling hurt", not "He's hurting her".

I gotta admit, that was the same sense I got. That, and the whole emotional blackmail that she's pulling with the tears, "how much it means to me," the assumptions that she apparently made and all the rest.

There was, admittedly, a time that I'd fall for all that. But bitter experience taught me that it's manipulation, pure and simple. Life's too short to be manipulated by all that drama. Who needs it?

Granted, we're only getting one side of the story here... Still, if she's so insistent that he accompany her regardless of how he feels about it, that says volumes about how she expects the rest of the relationship to play out.

damn... I must be really grumpy today

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by mlc82

The idea of dragging someone along to something I know full well they DON'T want to do just isn't something that would ever seem like fun to me.

Are you sure that she knows that you don't want to do it? I mean, it seems obvious to you, and to us, and a lot of times, it seems it should be obvious to her... but is it?

[Gordon]

The truth is you don't want to go....so why lie to her that would be worse.

Be a man, with some balls...and just sorry my dear but I just don't want to go....yoiu just posted a pile of excuses here for something you know what you really have to do.

G

[Gordon]

Plus if you are serious about going into business, you will be those balls....big brass ones especially....as customers can be as demanding as other halves (male or female).

G

[Ilya]

Originally Posted by seeker5

Ilya, what you wrote about him hurting his girlfriend, could be read the opposite way. She's hurting him by insisting to go away to family and dragging him along. She could simply stay with him there. Also, I feel it's more like "She's feeling hurt", not "He's hurting her".

Of course it could be read the opposite way. If I was giving advice to her I would talk about the actions she is responsible for. But I'm writing to mlc82. And given the current behavior of his girlfriend, the situation comes down to what I've described. When I'm saying "you are hurting her" it is not a blame. It is like I'd say "you drop the ball" in a situation when one is releasing the ball and it falls to the ground. Simple constatation. Maybe she wants to be hurt, who knows. But I'm the strong believer that in conflict it is useless to try to change the behavior of the other person. It is useless to expect mlc's girlfriend to give in. What is useful is to assess what he can do in this situation. Because ultimately our actions is all we have control over. That gives us the ability to give response to the life situations - responsibility.

Mlc82, sorry that I've used your situation as an example, you are having a hard time, but I think we can all learn something from this. Again, I'm not blaming you in any way. I'm suggesting that you concentrate on what you can do to solve this situation one way or another.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by cdn2wheeler

experience taught me that it's manipulation, pure and simple.

When I want my boyfriend to accompany me on a holiday trip and show disappointment or try to convince him when he declines, it's not with the intent to manipulate him. It's because I genuinely want him along. It's probably also because I can't fully understand his side of things...I don't "get" his reasoning because it's not mine. In the same way, mlc doesn't get her reasoning because it's not his.

If she's crying because this is important to her, how is that any more emotional blackmail than him giving her several reasons he doesn't want to go? Both are meant to get the individual what they want. It just seems that when a woman tries to get her way it's manipulation and emotional blackmail, but when a man tries to get his, it's perfectly reasonable and logical for him to what want he wants, make his case and get it.

Yes, it may very well be my choice whether or not I allow such a situation to bring me to tears because of how important it is to me. But that doesn't negate the fact that it is important to me.

Finally, isn't he being insistent that he not go, regardless of how she feels about it? What does that say about the future of the relationship?

Sorry to be bitter, cdn. I hope you know I still love you, I just don't really agree with you here. Maybe I have just let my past experience as being labled over-emotional and manipulative (or as guys like to say psycho and hysterical) affect me too much. I just don't think having an emotional reaction to something makes me crazy or manipulative. (I realize you didn't assert that, just speaking to how I've been labeled in the past). Why, yes, I am defensive, why do you ask?

mlc, I think you both have a right to want what you want. I hope you two are able to agree on a course of action that both of you can be comfortable with. I am a woman and I don't think you should go. I just think that you two should communicate as clearly as possible the reasons you each have and try to work out a solution together. I can really see where she's coming from. I am learning to see the other side too. It really helps in situations like these when my bf lets me in on his thought process and reasons. She may not really understand how stressed you are right now. Just as you may not understand why this is such a big deal to her. Then I can avoid what Ilya was talking about...the wild things my mind comes up with to explain why he might not want to go with me on an Xmas holiday. I wish you both the best and a great holiday season.

[Angela]

Aspiring, the trouble I see with the girl who cries when her boyfriend refuses to go to her family's home for the holidays is that she is not creating a space of freedom for him. Quite the contrary, she is making him responsible for her feelings rather than taking responsibility for them herself.

Maybe you're thinking, oh, well, she has a right to cry if she feels sad. And that is true. But look what she has done: she has extended an invitation, and he has declined. That's all. The sad feelings come in because she feels he owes it to her to attend her family gathering. Like something is basically wrong with the relationship (and maybe even something wrong with him or with herself) if he doesn't fulfill this unwritten rule. Again, she has every right to feel sad about that, but it doesn't work well in an LMBR -- feeling like someone owes you something in a relationship never does. It occurs like manipulation to the "debtor."

If she were taking responsibility, she might tell him, "Look, it would really mean a lot to me if you would go, and it makes me sad to think of spending the holiday without you." and maybe negotiate with him to find a way to make him more comfortable about going, or trade unwelcome tasks. And if he still declines, the best thing she could do is tell him, "Happy Holidays, then, baby; see you when I get back!"

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

I completely agree with you, Angela, that he doesn't owe her anything. I also agree that she alone is responsible for her feelings. Still, when my first reaction is sadness I cry. Maybe that is just my temperment (I tend to be a crier) or maybe more likely it's something that I will stop as I get better at being present. I don't think crying in and of itself somehow makes him responsible for her feelings. I see it as an expression of her feelings which in no way makes him beholden to change his mind or fix her feelings. She may very well be crying in attempt to manipulate him or make it "his fault" that she feels sad, but that's not the reason I cry. It's simply a release of the particular emotion I am feeling...sometimes frustration, sadness or anger. I think my reaction to cdn was strong because I've had any kind of emotional response to any situation (hello, death?!) be considered crazy and/or manipulative when that certainly wasn't my intention.

Is it never okay to cry in front of your SO for fear of making them feel guilty or responsible? Do people who are taking responsibility never cry? I don't say these things facetiously at all...I really want to know if not crying in a situation like this is the evidence (not the right word really) that you are taking responsibility? I would still agree the best way to handle it would be the way you said in the last paragraph -- by explaining how you are feeling and negotiating.

Man, it's tough keeping up with all of this!

[Angela]

If you cry when your boyfriend refuses to go with you to your family's for the holidays, you are crying because of what you make it mean that he won't go. He's not actually hurting you, he's just doing what he feels is right for himself.

So, you think to yourself, I'm crying why? Because I'm disappointed! Yeah, and what else underneath that? Because I'm sad -- he is supposed to go with me to my family's, and if he doesn't, that means he doesn't love me! He's not following the rules! He's a bad boyfriend! After all I've done for him! My friends all agree he should go with me! He's the wrong guy for me! I'm not loveable! My parents will think he's (I'm) a loser if he doesn't show up! I'll have to answer all those questions! I'll never get married! I'll die alone in a tenement apartment, and they'll only find me when I start to smell!

If you were just disappointed, you'd shrug your shoulders and tell him you're disappointed. It's all those other thoughts that lay underneath "I'm disappointed" that, in a blink of an eye, make you upset. Of course they do! I'd be upset if I realized I was going to die alone and the cats will eat my face off! But if you examine those thoughts for truth (and if you read them from his point of view), you'll see that they don't exactly create a space of freedom for either of you.

I'm not saying don't ever cry -- cry all you want! And take a look at your thoughts. What I mean is: it's not wrong to get upset, it's a learning experience. And it may mean crying for a long while in the shower, getting it out of your system, allowing him to comfort you. In the end, though, it works well in relationships if at some point you can take responsibility for what got you upset in the first place -- your thoughts.