Could use advice concerning 16 year old

[Honeywith4bees]

Hey all ~

I could use some advice dealing with my sixteen your old son's apparent lack of motivation and interests. He actually has quite a few ways that he likes to spend his time, watching movies, sending IM's to his friends, playing on MY Space, playing video games, eating and sleeping. He's not doing well in school because he rarely gets his homework done and passed in yet he is looking forward to going to college in a year and a half. He keeps saying he's not ready for a part time job either although he wants a truck as soon as he gets his license. I'm worried that he has no drive,no ambitions, no strong interests or dreams. I feel like my parents failed me as a teenager by not providing any support to me or opening any new horizons for me so I'm trying to offer all kinds of new experiences to him, open up his world a little, but he's not interested! His councilor that he sees twice a month has never mentioned depression and my son claims to be perfectly content in his existence. His biggest complaint is me ~ he says I nag him too much trying to get him to do his homework.

Should I just leave him alone to (potentially) fail his school year and (potentially) miss out on some fun experiences? I want to find the right balance of putting time into my own well being and thus being a good role model, and showing some support and guidance to him as well.

Anyone with any thoughts that could be helpful, I would appreciate your response! I'm also looking for possibly some suggestions of things that I could do with him that would spark some motivation in him. Thanks!

[JimOfferman]

Tell him that you will stand by him no matter what he does (within reason, of course) and then let him find his own path.

My parents stood by every decision and mistake me or my sister and brother ever made, even if they didn't always agree. Nowadays, they are proud parents of three children who are each successful in their very own way. Even my kid brother who had us all worried about his lack of focus and determination is now rapidly growing into a promising game designer as well as a great amateur stage actor - taking us all by surprise!

[openeyes]

I'm not sure if it's too late for this or not, but when I was in the first grade my parents paid me for each book I read, and throughout grade school I was paid for each A or B I made, with a bonus added when I had all A's, and as a result I made straight A's from 5th through 12th grade, except for one B in an AP course, making me #1 in my high school class.

I didn't receive much of an allowance, most all the money I had was from good grades and doing extra chores. I got my first official job at 20 and wish I'd gotten one much earlier, as the structure it provided actually helped me be more productive, rather than preventing me from focusing on school.

My parents were rather liberal and never really told me what I had to do, in part because they didn't need to. If I were going to get home past midnight they simply asked that I let them know beforehand, for example. They supported me in whatever I wanted to do and were simply there to help me do things safely (when I was 11 and dating a 16 year old my mom gave me condoms rather than tell me I shouldn't be dating someone so old).

[Honeywith4bees]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

Tell him that you will stand by him no matter what he does (within reason, of course) and then let him find his own path.

I tease my son that I'll quit nagging at him when he starts doing things right (of course the right way being MY way!) He's such a bright and talented kid that it hurts me to see him not doing anything. He played the violin for 6 years and was growing into a talented fiddler, but now hasn't taken the thing out of the case for about a year. Well, thanks for the advice Jim, its not easy standing at the sidelines.

Originally Posted by openeyes

I'm not sure if it's too late for this or not, but when I was in the first grade my parents paid me for each book I read, and throughout grade school I was paid for each A or B I made, with a bonus added when I had all A's, and as a result I made straight A's from 5th through 12th grade, except for one B in an AP course, making me #1 in my high school class.

He asked me for text messaging on his phone and I agreed, if he could pull his grades up but even though he wants the text messaging, he's not doing anything about the grades. I think I'll do this with my other boys though, reward them for their grades. But let me ask you, I've always thought that the reward should be a sense of personal satisfaction. Do you think that this kind of "money as motivation" interferes with that? Thanks Eli, for the suggestions!

[The Cloud]

If he's content, let him be. But slowly withdraw your support from him. At this time, he doesn't have to do anything to be content because everything is provided for him, his existence requires no effort. So don't push him somewhere he doesn't want to go, don't make him feel as if he owes it to himself or you or your parents to succeed. If I may be so bold, you probably feel as if he owes it to you to excel, because everything you have done for him and given to him has had the hidden stipulation that he use it to live the teenagerhood that you feel you did not have the opportunity to live. So if you stop providing him the things with this hidden stipulation, stop providing him with ready-made desires, then he will have to discover what he really wants and how he is going to get it. In other words, he is going to have to fail so that he can learn how not to fail. Believe me, he will be a lot happier failing at his own goals than he will be succeeding at yours.

[openeyes]

Originally Posted by Honeywith4bees

I've always thought that the reward should be a sense of personal satisfaction. Do you think that this kind of "money as motivation" interferes with that? Thanks Eli, for the suggestions!

A sense of achievement can be a nice reward if it's something he cares to be good at, and even if that were the case with grades, he'd need something to actually motivate him to get the grades before he'd experience it, so money needn't necessarily conflict with that. Did he use to do very well in school?

In thinking about it more though, I'm inclined to agree with The Cloud in that "he will be a lot happier failing at his own goals than he will be succeeding at yours.", meaning that you may be better off just giving him a bit more room and be willing to let him skin his knees while he gets his own footing.

If you're familiar with unschooling (~student directed learning), letting him have his decompress time may be just what he needs. When I was ~15 I wanted to leave regular school and homeschool myself, and it might have been better if I'd taken the plunge.

This book is worth checking out, even if homeschooling doesn't seem like an option:

Amazon.com: The Teenage Liberation Handbook: How to Quit School and Get a Real Life and Education: Books: Grace Llewellyn

[Terumoto]

I'm not so different from your son, except two years into the future.

I am 18 years old, barely scraped into university because of my lack of motivation and drive in high school, still have no idea where I want to go with my life. This semester I failed all of my subjects because I barely went to any classes or handed in assignments. I still live at home and I don't have a "real" job.

By anybody's standards, especially the standards of my parents, I am a failure who is going absolutely nowhere in life. My father is a doctor, my 19 year old brother is well on his way to becoming a molecular biologist. There has always been a lot of pressure on me to become "somebody."

With all that pressure, I was forced to learn one thing: how to deal with pressure. How to be happy and relaxed, no matter what the situation. So do you see my dilemma now? People are telling me I need to get myself ready to head out into the real world so that when I go out into the real world I'll be able to get a decent job, make a lot of money, meet a good wife and be generally successful, and then maybe one day, if I'm lucky, I will have attained happiness and can finally relax.

Consequently I begin to think "why on earth would I need to do that? I'm happy right now, so what's the point of wasting all that time and effort when the ultimate destination of it is where I am right now?" However, sitting around being happy and doing nothing all day gets a bit repetetive. Little games to play, in the form of goals and dreams emerge and I decide to take them up to keep myself busy. To be honest, I make more money a week these days than my mother does, but my parents aren't aware of that.

Anyway, my point is, I don't think there's anything you can do to make your son motivated. There is probably a lot more to him than you know by his actions and words, and he's probably just figuring himself out and getting his bearings. He has to become motivated on his own. He could potentially fail his school year whether you leave him alone or hassle him all the time. When I was in school, I didn't dread getting bad grades, I dreaded the time when my parents found out that I got bad grades. Nevertheless, it didn't affect my (lack of) study habits at all.

Oh, and offering money or rewards if he goes well might work, but it isn't making him motivated to care about his future, it's just taking advantage of the fact he's a 16 year old boy, and there's a lot of things a 16 year old boy would like to have.

That actually might work as long as it's something that he really wants. You could string him along like that, making him get good grades so that he can get into college/university. The bad side to that method is that when he does get there, he still won't have any idea what he wants to do, and he still won't have any motivation (unless he developed it on his own somewhere along the way).

[Honeywith4bees]

He was homeschooled/unschooled from fourth through eighth, then attended a private Quaker boarding school on a 220 acre farm in New Hampshire. He loved it there but couldn't follow their rules and got himself thrown out three quarters of the way through his sophomore year. Now he wants to be in our public high school because of the social opportunities and tells me that he wishes I didn't "let" him be unschooled for so long because he's lacking in lots of the background other kids his age have academically.

I agree with the Cloud that I am projecting what I desired as a teenager onto him. The question is, is leaving a 16 year old in charge of his destination, when his destination appears to be laying around eating, sleeping , playing on the computer and failing classes, the mature thing for me, the adult in charge, to do?

[Honeywith4bees]

Originally Posted by Terumoto

I'm not so different from your son, except two years into the future.

Can I ask you Terumoto, would you have liked your parents to have dragged you out to do more things when you were 16? I wonder if I should just let him stay home all weekend IM ing people when there is so much to do and see!

And thanks for all the suggestions and commentary, I really appreciate it.

[Ree]

Honey, my heart goes out to you, because I know how hard it is to watch a child with tons of potential seemingly let that potential go down the drain.

Our oldest son went down a very steep slippery slope and seriously, almost died in the process. He had no interest in school, experimented with drugs and alcohol and sex and had friends we definitely did not approve of. His father and I drew a line in the sand, saying to him that there is a point past which we will not go with you. After he became 18 he passed that point and we basically turned him out of our home and out of our lives. His involvement in a life-threatening accident brought us back together, and changed his life for the better in many, many ways.

After dropping out of high school, getting his GED, working for five years at menial jobs for minimum-wage pay, today he is sober and in his sophomore year at a major university as an A/B student.

My point is never, ever give up. Also never underestimate the power of what you do and say. While it appeared that our son ignored us completely, I now see that he was listening to every word and watching every move. Keep the lines of communication open. While you have to be firm, always be loving and never close the door completely.

I don't mean to insinuate that your child could be headed for the same bad times that my son experienced. I realize that our situation was much more dire than the one you describe. I relate it to you only to let you know that no matter how bad things seem, with children there is always hope and always the possibility for things to be turned around.

[Terumoto]

Originally Posted by Honeywith4bees

Can I ask you Terumoto, would you have liked your parents to have dragged you out to do more things when you were 16? I wonder if I should just let him stay home all weekend IM ing people when there is so much to do and see!

And thanks for all the suggestions and commentary, I really appreciate it.

Well, personally, when I was 16 I didn't enjoy being dragged around to places, but he might be different and it depends on where you're trying to drag him to. I would have preferred to stay home to be on the computer or play video games.

I think you are going through a very difficult phase. In my case, it was around 15-16 that I got tired of my parents. My mother had been mothering me since I was a baby, and she was still trying to do it. I had my own views and ideas as an individual person (maybe not the best views and ideas, but they were my own lol), and it was as if my mother couldn't bear to stop seeing me as her baby and start respecting me as another person. I didn't have those exact thoughts, but when I look back on it that's how I felt.

I didn't really know what I wanted, but people kept telling me what I should want and asking me what I want. I went through a lot of phases that went as quick as they came. I think maybe the best thing you can do for your son is be the kind of person he doesn't have to hide things from, and help him if he wants to do something.

At the same time though, remember that your son doesn't really know what he's doing and if he is going to make a really bad decision you need to step in and do something about it, but in a positive way. For example, when I was a year away from finishing high school I suddenly decided that music was my life and I wanted to drop out of school and become an audio engineer. Great, I had found something I was passionate about, but dropping out of school was a very stupid idea. My reasoning was "I already know what I want to do, and it doesn't need school, and I don't like school, so I want to drop out." My parents didn't let me drop out, but they said I could do a course on audio engineering alongside school or do one after I finished school. I did a bit of a "woe is me, life is against me" thing and then got over it, and I'm very glad now that I didn't drop out of school. I was able to study music at university and I enjoyed it, but I don't really want to be an audio engineer anymore. Maybe that trucking thing your son mentioned is a similar phase.

Anyway, in the end you shouldn't worry too much about it. Just try to be a good mother without trying to make your son do what he "should" do, because at the moment he probably thinks he knows better. In a few years the mother-son relationship will have changed into an adult-adult relationship, and he will see that you aren't clueless and you do care about him, and you will see that he has grown up and become a person. I don't really know much about all of this though, I'm not the most wonderful son in the world. If you'd rather your son didn't end up like me, you probably shouldn't listen to my advice lol.

[ticktockclok]

I guess I'm a bit of the opposite of your son. I'm sixteen too, but my absolute hate of school gave me a boost up instead of down. My parents won't let me out of school, even though I gave them a complete plan of what I was going to do. I just decided to slack off in school to have time to learn economics and philosophy, work on my web site, and learn speaking.

But I know what its like, being apathetic towards life. Give him the option to get the hell out of school, if he promises to stay off myspace and TV for a month. That's a pretty sweet pill to take. If he takes it, he won't head back to myspace and TV; he'll, completely of his own accord, have finally started his education.

If dropping out is too much for you to handle, there are online schools where you can count just about anything as education, because it is. You insert something like walk on a trail for science, and your son can get a perfectly normal high school degree. I can't remember the name of the school that does it, but I'll get back to you if I remember.

[m18pak]

Try getting to KNOW him.

And yes, I know you're going to say that you already tried that, but I'm guessing that your "communication" probably felt more like "interrogation" to him (the old "what do you want to do with your life/what are you thinking/how come you don't..." speech)

I'm worried that he has no drive,no ambitions, no strong interests or dreams.

The question is, is leaving a 16 year old in charge of his destination, when his destination appears to be laying around eating, sleeping , playing on the computer and failing classes

I don't mean to be so harsh, but it sounds like you don't really know who your son is if you can think that.

Honey, desire is born out of potential. A person will not have the desire to do something unless he or she has the potential to do it.

Your son is apathetic and indolent simply because he has not yet found something which he has the potential to do. There is really no such thing as laziness.

A person is motivated to do a thing because it calls to him, because on some level he can sense that he can, and is meant to, do it.

Your son's destination is NOT what you fear it to be. HE HAS NO DESTINATION AS OF THIS POINT; that is why he is so slothful. He simply does not have a goal to aim towards.

DO NOT TRY TO CHANGE HIM. There is nothing wrong with your son; there is nothing wayward to correct. All you need to do is pique his interest in life, to facilitate his journey of self-discovery.

DON'T SIT HIM DOWN AND HAVE A HEART-TO-HEART TALK; and most definitely don't try to inculcate motivation into him. There is no need for any special or impressive gestures on your part. All you need to do is to learn to think of him as finding his way, to learn to think of his apparent aimlessness as a temporary moment of transition from dependence to independence.

Think of this point in his life as him finding his own way.

Keep doing what you have always done, but do it now with the assurance that things will work out exactly right for your son.

Once you have faith that he will turn out fine, AND ONLY ONCE YOU HAVE THIS FAITH, can you hope to do good instead of harm when you try to "help" him.

And once you have this faith, you can start introducing things you think he might find interesting into his life. Do this with discretion.

THE KEY TO REMEMBER IS THAT YOU ARE OFFERING HIM YOUR HELP. HE IS THE ONE WHO HAS TO ACCEPT IT.

You don't have to believe in the LoA, but you must come to realise that a fearful belief that your son will go wrong unless you "help" him (i.e. influence him for his own good) is not an useful or healthy belief to have.

Remember that your children come through you, not from you.

[ChangeYourTree]

Originally Posted by Honeywith4bees

Hey all ~

I could use some advice dealing with my sixteen your old son's apparent lack of motivation and interests. He actually has quite a few ways that he likes to spend his time, watching movies, sending IM's to his friends, playing on MY Space, playing video games, eating and sleeping. He's not doing well in school because he rarely gets his homework done and passed in yet he is looking forward to going to college in a year and a half. He keeps saying he's not ready for a part time job either although he wants a truck as soon as he gets his license. I'm worried that he has no drive,no ambitions, no strong interests or dreams. I feel like my parents failed me as a teenager by not providing any support to me or opening any new horizons for me so I'm trying to offer all kinds of new experiences to him, open up his world a little, but he's not interested! His councilor that he sees twice a month has never mentioned depression and my son claims to be perfectly content in his existence. His biggest complaint is me ~ he says I nag him too much trying to get him to do his homework.

Should I just leave him alone to (potentially) fail his school year and (potentially) miss out on some fun experiences? I want to find the right balance of putting time into my own well being and thus being a good role model, and showing some support and guidance to him as well.

Anyone with any thoughts that could be helpful, I would appreciate your response! I'm also looking for possibly some suggestions of things that I could do with him that would spark some motivation in him. Thanks!

He is content with where he is, that is true. It sounds like he is content with you supporting him.

In this situation, you are the one that is suffering.

How is he going to get this truck he wants? I would it make it very clear to him that you aren't going to help him purchase this truck unless he has a job, working x number of hours a week.

Does he currently have to do anything around the house to help? He is 16 years old, next time he wants new clothes I'd inform him that getting a job would be a great way to afford some. Next time he wants a new computer/playstation/xbox game, a new job would be a great way to afford one, etc.

I would stop nagging him about getting a job and just show him that he is going to need one because you aren't going to provide everything for him. If he still doesn't want a job, that's his choice. Inform him that he will be paying rent when he turns 18 or finding his own place to live.

Life is tough; you can't play video games all day and feed your family. His eyes will open when the spoon comes out of his mouth.

[Honeywith4bees]

Originally Posted by Ree

Honey, my heart goes out to you, because I know how hard it is to watch a child with tons of potential seemingly let that potential go down the drain.

Thanks Ree, It's true that he does have lots of potential and he talks a big story about what he wants to do with that potential. Last night we talked about his violin because I was listening to classical music when he came into the kitchen. He was proud of the fact that he could play and was glad that he had studied for so long. I had to bite my tongue to not make a remark about how he never plays anymore. He talks about going to college, where he wants to go, what he wants to study, but he doesn't seem to grasp the fact that failing his junior year probably won't get him into his school of choice. It complicates the matter that his Dad has done jail time, recently, for drug related charges. So, yes, I am scared.

Originally Posted by Terumoto

Anyway, in the end you shouldn't worry too much about it. Just try to be a good mother without trying to make your son do what he "should" do, because at the moment he probably thinks he knows better. In a few years the mother-son relationship will have changed into an adult-adult relationship, and he will see that you aren't clueless and you do care about him, and you will see that he has grown up and become a person.

Thanks for your input, Terumoto, I have found it extremely helpful to try and see things from his point of view and not just mine.

Originally Posted by ticktockclok

If dropping out is too much for you to handle, there are online schools where you can count just about anything as education, because it is.

Thanks for the insight ticktockclock. We went that route (unschooling) for a number of years and he claims to be glad to be back in school. He loves the social atmosphere. How did you discover your love of economics, if I may ask?

Originally Posted by m18pak

And yes, I know you're going to say that you already tried that, but I'm guessing that your "communication" probably felt more like "interrogation" to him (the old "what do you want to do with your life/what are you thinking/how come you don't..." speech)

Everything I say to that boy right now, he takes as me being critical. I can almost see his eyes glaze over the moment I open my mouth!!

Originally Posted by m18pak

Honey, desire is born out of potential. A person will not have the desire to do something unless he or she has the potential to do it. Your son is apathetic and indolent simply because he has not yet found something which he has the potential to do. There is really no such thing as laziness.

He has had so many experiences in the past that he excelled at. When he was 10, I used to take him downtown to play his violin on the street corner for money. He raised 100 bucks that he sent to an orphanage in Guatemala. He has worked on three different organic farms during the summers, learned glass blowing, taken fencing lessons. He's good at all those things, but doesn't want to continue any of them (except Fencing)

Originally Posted by m18pak

All you need to do is to learn to think of him as finding his way, to learn to think of his apparent aimlessness as a temporary moment of transition from dependence to independence.
You don't have to believe in the LoA, but you must come to realise that a fearful belief that your son will go wrong unless you "help" him (i.e. influence him for his own good) is not an useful or healthy belief to have.

Very helpful piece of advice. Thank you for that!

Originally Posted by ChangeYourTree

He is content with where he is, that is true. It sounds like he is content with you supporting him.

He is content with his situation and he does have chores, albeit, small ones, to do around the house. I will not buy him a vehicle or give him spending money, but I will keep buying him clothes and shoes as I believe that is my responsibility.
Thank you for your input! I appreciate it.

[Lola]

Ahhhh - 16 year old boys - gotta love 'em!

Lots of good pointers here, Honey. You WILL (both!) survive him being a teenager. Much of what you describe is pretty normal, IMO. Frustrating? Yes! But normal.

FWIW, when I had a son that age, I clearly articulated to him the non-negotiables and what he could expect as consequences should he choose not to comply. That said, the non-negotiables were few. I learned early on in child-raising to choose my battles so as not to have a relationship that was fraught with constant nagging on my part.

Also, about consequences, only threaten what you are fully prepared to deliver on, and when required, deliver without fail. You will completely lose credibility otherwise. Will he be angry with you and rail against the injustice of it all? Yep. But he'll get over it.

As far as talking with him goes, it is important, as in any joint communication effort, to listen as well as talk. I found with my son that our most revealing, in-depth conversations occurred when we were DOING something. Sitting down across from him and saying, "So, tell me what's going on with you - what's your plan - why do you do this - what are you thinking..." never got me anywhere. But with an activity to absorb some of the intensity and focus, genuine communication about his real issues was able to flow more easily. (I'm sometimes sorry to have created such an open communication with him because there's some things I'd just as soon not know!)

Let him make choices and let him enjoy the success or failure of those choices. One of the hardest things with kids nearing adulthood is to let them experience failure. One of our jobs as parents all of their lives has been to keep them safe - it's really hard to let go of that and let them skin their knees, as openeys said, but how else do they learn to make better decisions? Another goal of parenting has been to inch them bit by bit towards independence. They can't achieve that without taking complete ownership of a decision or two. What better time to fall on your face than when you still have the soft place of home to land? I've had to stand by a few times now and watch my son take actions (or not) that I felt would turn out badly. Things he would regret. Actions that would cause him difficulty down the road if not right in the moment. But I also knew he would not likely hear my admonishment and advice in the moment and had to let it go.

Finally, remember that our egos get incredibly wrapped up in our kids - who they are, what they do - their accomplishments, successes and failures. Above all else, remember he's not you. He's his own person and trying mightily to discover who that is and how he wants to express that. Stay close, provide gentle guidance, and make sure he knows you're there for him and love him no matter what. He'll figure it out.

[Honeywith4bees]

Originally Posted by Lola

Ahhhh - 16 year old boys - gotta love 'em!

And I do ( sometimes I don't LIKE him though!!)

All kidding aside, I really appreciate all the input I've gotten. I get so frustrated and scared sometimes. When he was younger there were so many ways we could connect, so many things we could do together. Now that list has dwindled so much that I'm always searching for something that we can do and both enjoy.

Thanks everyone!

[ticktockclok]

Originally Posted by Honeywith4bees

Thanks for the insight ticktockclock. We went that route (unschooling) for a number of years and he claims to be glad to be back in school. He loves the social atmosphere. How did you discover your love of economics, if I may ask?

Hmm.... that's really odd. He has definite goals as far as college, is apathetic towards school, but didn't really like unschooling. Did he just dislike unschooling because he wasn't getting much social interaction? If he wants to try unschooling again, he could do more things outside of school: volunteering, internship, etc. And he's old enough to drive, so if he saves up, he could meet friends that way. But if he's against unschooling, that's cool.

I began to love economics, specifically the Austrian school of economics, through a really long chain reaction:

1) Hated my sophomore english class, causing a general hatred of school.
2) My hatred of school brought me to research homeschooling.
3) One of the links I found in researching homeschooling brought me to the Free State Project.
4) From the Free State Project, I found out about libertarianism.
5) I began reading articles from Lew Rockwell, a libertarian.
6) Lew Rockwell's is the successor of the late Murray Rothbard, who is the successor of the late Ludwig von Mises, who was called the "dean" of the Austrian school of economics.
7) I buy Mises' greatest work, Human Action, which forms a basis for all of Austrian economics, specifically praxeology.

And I love it.

[Ree]

Honey, I had another thought that I wanted to share with you. My (now) 24 year old son, who has been returned to us like the prodigal son and is now at university, recently told me that when he was about 14 he suffered from existential depression, but at that time didn't really know how to define it or how to articulate it to anyone.

As it dawned on him what the "real world" was going to be like when he became an adult and had to live in that real world, he became disgusted. He truly didn't CARE about himself or his future. For the record, he has a high IQ and a low EQ so he doesn't handle difficulties very well. I think it's a fairly common experience for young people who are very very bright and not very mature.

I wish I had paid more attention and figured out what was wrong. Maybe I could have made the way a little easier for him.

[Lola]

Originally Posted by Ree

I wish I had paid more attention and figured out what was wrong. Maybe I could have made the way a little easier for him.

Ree, you did a great job with your son. Was there more you could have done? Differently? Perhaps. We could all get in a circle and take turns beating ourselves with the bat of parental regret.

But you know what? Here's what I say to myself when I start thinking what I could've done better or more of or less of (and I bet it's true of you and Honey, too): "In whatever moment I was in, I did the very best I knew how to do and was capable of doing in that moment."

And that's in spite of having all the answers when I was a teenager and my parents were doing it all wrong!

[Honeywith4bees]

Originally Posted by Lola

Ree, you did a great job with your son. Was there more you could have done? Differently? Perhaps. We could all get in a circle and take turns beating ourselves with the bat of parental regret.

Right Lola! Something I think too, is that whatever we do, wont be the "right thing" to do. I sit here as an adult and wish that my parents gave me more support as a teenager, my son will probably be in some online support forum when he's an adult, complaining about how his Mother wouldn't ljust leave him alone!!

All of these responses have been so helpful. I'm in off the ledge now. Last night me and the boy were back on each others good sides. He even set his alarm clock before he went to sleep so that he could get up on time this morning! (Alas, he set the time for PM rather than AM, so I still had to go roust him out of bed . . . )

Thanks everyone

[Honeywith4bees]

By the way, for all you wonderful young men that posted, you were EXTREMELY helpful in your replies. You gave the ability to take a glimpse into the mind of the adolescent boy and try to see things from his perspective. I truly value that. Thanks!

[PaulL]

Mom!

I am 19 and can speak with insight.

You need to stop being your sons friend. I get the feeling dad is not around to be a role model, so you HAVE to make it happen.
I don't think it is too late but here is what I suggest:

Force him to get a job. It is an absolutely vital part of becoming a good citizen and a good human being. Even if it is at the local McDonalds (just be advised, places like that have rampid drug use in the workplace), he has to get a job.

Do not even think about co-signing on any type of loan for a fancy truck. He needs to save up $750 and go buy a very used car.
Then since HE is going to pay insurance, he will need the job to be able to drive since mom WILL NOT pay the insurance and WILL NOT let him drive with out insurance.

I promise momma, if you let him become lazy and sastisfied with sitting infront of a computer all day, he is going to be living with you until he is 35!
I would tell him that he has to pay for 1/2 of the internet bill, that would be start. If he refuses, cancel the service until he comes up with the money.

[openeyes]

Originally Posted by Honeywith4bees

By the way, for all you wonderful young men that posted, you were EXTREMELY helpful in your replies. You gave the ability to take a glimpse into the mind of the adolescent boy and try to see things from his perspective. I truly value that. Thanks!

Glad to help. I'm always curious about the experiences of people striving to be very conscious in their parenting (and living) styles. Since I was 14 I've studied water birthing, attachment parenting, and various home school/alternative education books/websites. In part it was to optimize my own development, but it was also with the hope of doing a fair job of raising my own kids if/when I have them.

Since my early teens much of what I've done has been with the mindset of leading by example rather than simply hoping people will go by what I say, and as I experience things I think about how I'd try to help my own children deal with a similar experience. Overall I find it's best for now to just be as aware as possible and relax. I focus on listening and then taking action when action seems appropriate.

I don't expect to find a cookie cutter approach that will solve everything. I try to increase my ability to accept the unknown rather than try to control every detail. Kids (and life) will always be unpredictable. They need to know you love them and will be there for them. I try to develop my own passions so that others, such as future kids/or even current friends can possibly be inspired by them, benefiting from my own joy.

From what you've said of your son he seems to a great kid and I expect things will ultimately turn out well, though it can be hard to always remember that in the moment. As for whatever you do never being enough, though there were some things I've felt at times my parents could have done better, with time as I understand their situation more deeply I increasingly feel they did an amazing job, and I make a point of letting them know.

[carenkh]

It sounds like your son is smart enough that he's realized what BS homework/schoolwork is! Yes, with failing grades he may not make it into the college of his choice.. at first. But would that be the end of the world? I'd support his passions - which right now are games, movies and IMing - and let him know you trust him. This doesn't mean not letting him know your concerns - but it means letting him know them, then *letting go*.

There is so much more support out there for radical unschooling than there was, even just a few years ago. More social opportunities with conferences and get-togethers. My son has friends all over the country, so he gets his social needs met that way, through online gaming and message boards. He does, of course, have friends IRL, too - friends we met through local unschooling e-mail lists, as well as neighbors, etc. Would your son be open to unschooling again if he had more social opportunities? There's the Not Back to School Camp - East and West coast, (run by the author of Teenage Liberation Handbook, which I also *highly* recommend!) Live and Learn Unschooling Conference, L.I.F.E. is Good Unschooling Conference, Northeast Unschooling Conference.

There's a LOT of wisdom on the various Unschooling e-mail lists, too - folks who have made it through teen angst and beyond - RadicalUnschooling, Unschooling Basics, Shine With Unschooling

We just had a discussion on Unschooling Basics from someone in a position similar to yours - her daughter was in school, but wanted to "unschool" school - it is possible! If you join you can look in the archives for that.

There is a group, Consensual Living, that is not strictly unschooling - or even parenting; there are some very wise people on there.

I disagree completely with the idea of *not* supporting him, or setting certain conditions for support. Find ways to connect - can you play games with him? Watch movies with him? There would be so much more experience about stuff like that on the e-mail lists I mentioned above. It feels wrong in my gut to cut off support for a 16 year old, especially with the situation with his father.

I get the feeling, too, that you'd gain a lot by doing The Work on your beliefs and fears about your son. It consists of looking at a belief you hold in detail, and working on acceptance of What Is. Beautiful stuff, very powerful.

[PaulL]

I came to the wrong place.

This place is full of insane liberal hippies.

Do you really think supporting your son while he is being unproductive and doing bad at school is a good thing?

Do you think there can be one ounce of good in telling your son its ok not to finish school and to not attend college?

Get a grip lady.

I will promptly be exiting the forums now because I see that rationalism is not a common occurance here.

I think it is very possible that the majority of users on here are from the U.K. and I simply don't understand their way of thinking.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by PaulL

Do you really think supporting your son while he is being unproductive and doing bad at school is a good thing?

What else would you propose? Beating him into submission with a stick? That'll work wonders! Let's force shackles on all teenagers and drag 'em all safely towards adulthood, no matter how reluctant they are. God forbid if we ever allow them to make any mistakes of their own. How charming they all will turn out then!

Thanks but no thanks.

Enjoy your uptight little world Paul, while the rest of us go on to raise the next generation of successful people...

[Lola]

Originally Posted by PaulL

This place is full of insane liberal hippies.

I do SO love external validation! Thanks PaulL!!

BTW - This insane liberal hippy has raised three kids to adulthood. Self-sufficient, society-contributing, independent-thinking adults. How 'bout you? Hmmm?

[Honeywith4bees]

[QUOTE=openeyes;133350
I don't expect to find a cookie cutter approach that will solve everything. I try to increase my ability to accept the unknown rather than try to control every detail. Kids (and life) will always be unpredictable. They need to know you love them and will be there for them. I try to develop my own passions so that others, such as future kids/or even current friends can possibly be inspired by them, benefiting from my own joy.
[/QUOTE]

You are so right about the "cookie cutter approach" idea. In the end, we all need to just learn to trust our intuition in these things. My intuition is clouded from many years of listening to outside sources tell me not to trust myself, something I'm learning to get over.

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

What else would you propose? Beating him into submission with a stick? That'll work wonders! Let's force shackles on all teenagers and drag 'em all safely towards adulthood, no matter how reluctant they are. God forbid if we ever allow them to make any mistakes of their own. How charming they all will turn out then!

The idea seems appealing sometimes . . . (of course I'm not serious!)

Originally Posted by Lola

BTW - This insane liberal hippy has raised three kids to adulthood. Self-sufficient, society-contributing, independent-thinking adults. How 'bout you? Hmmm?

Is it love? Is it luck? Is it nature? Or nurture? My guess at this point, is probably a whole lot of everything goes into the mix of how kids end up as adults. My neighbor has a daughter that gets nothing from her Mom as far as guidance or nurturing goes. Her Dad died when she was five of a drug overdose and she doesn't have any aunts or uncles or cousins in her life. This girl is just fabulous! Kind, loving, talented and smart. It's a mystery sometimes.

On a different note:
I never know what to say to the people who post that I don't agree with. I try to look for something useful in everything, and I try to appreciate the fact that they have made an effort to post at all, but in the end I usually end up not replying at all rather than argue. That's probably not the best way to deal with things, is it?

[Lola]

Originally Posted by Honeywith4bees

Is it love? Is it luck? Is it nature? Or nurture? My guess at this point, is probably a whole lot of everything goes into the mix of how kids end up as adults.

It is a bit of a crap-shoot, isn't it. I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek with my response to PaulL. Truthfully, I sometimes feel amazed at how they've (thus far) turned out. Did I always know what I was doing or that I was doing the *right* thing? Hell no. Did things sometimes turn out all right even when I did the *wrong* thing? Amazingly, yes.

To reiterate something I said earlier in this thread: "In whatever moment I was in, I did the very best I knew how to do and was capable of doing in that moment." Ultimately, I think that's all we can do as parents. That and heaps of unconditional love. Then letting go and remembering that in the end it's up to them to be who and what they are.