How I treat women.

[A.K.Light]

I just learned something about myself last night - I'm extremely afraid of hurting women's feelings.

My girlfriend was late last night and I couldn't get a hold of her. I just figured she was sleeping and her plan to wake up didn't work out. No big deal. I was disappointed, not angry. I could not be angry about such a small thing. It's just a tiny mistake. I rationalized the situation and waited, assuming that everything was fine. Then when I was finally talking to her, she noticed I was odd. I said it might have been because she was late, but that it was no big deal, and that we should move on. She didn't want to leave it though, because she could tell it was bothering me.

So then I was saying things like "It's not that hard to set an alarm, or to be on time, if you actually care to be there. That's logically how I see it in my mind, and I just can't figure out how it could be any different." At this point I was just trying to rationalize out loud why it was bothering me. This made me sound really upset and sensitive. I wasn't that upset, and I'm really not that sensitive. The more I said trying to fix it just made it sound worse and that if affected me much than it did, so I kept trying to say "Forget about it, let's just have fun."

And then I figured it out. I was afraid to be mean to her. I was afraid to just outright express how I felt. I knew she didn't do it on purpose and I didn't want to be mean or make a big deal out of it. But then I thought about what I would have done if a guy friend had done the same thing. I would said "Where the bleep where you? It's not that hard to set a freaking alarm, you punk." And I would have expressed ALL of my feelings and been done with it, and we would have moved on 2 minutes after he defended himself and told me to shut up.

And then I thought some more. (I was talking and thinking my way through it with her.) I always say exactly what I think to men, no matter what. I don't care if I hurt their feelings. Not that I'm a mean person, I just don't worry about guys. I think that they can take it, and if they can't, they should learn how so maybe pain is necessary. I've never said anything like that to a woman. I've never been mean to one on purpose, even if I was joking. I always try to be very understanding, lenient, objective, and nice.

Is that really the right way to go? Why can't I talk to women more openly and freely without worrying about hurting them, like I do with guys? Had I said what I would have said to a guy friend, the whole thing would have been over in 2 minutes, but instead I swallowed it, and it made it awkward for 25 minutes.

I asked my girlfriend to allow me to conduct an experiment with her, where I would just be more open and not worry about her feelings as much, hopefully making communication easier. She agreed.

I don't know what happened during my childhood to make me fear hurting women so much. The more I think about it, the more I see it in my past. I've always felt like I was partially responsible for their feelings and emotional state, and I desperately tried not to upset them. I've never been like that with guys.

Do you think this experiment is a good idea? I won't be mean or anything, but maybe I'm working on something good here. What are your thoughts? I'll bet most woman can take WAY more than I've somehow conditioned myself to believe.

[NotesMaeve]

You know why you're afraid of hurting women's feelings?

You don't respect us.

You don't think we can emotionally hack it. You really think you're so superior as a man you can better deal with things like disappointment and pain. (I've known a good number of men like this.)

She overslept and you're laying a guilt trip on her. "I can't believe you ****ing overslept," is a lot less hurtful than, "Well, if you cared about being here, you could set an alarm." How is that protecting her feelings? That smacks more of manipulation than "protection."

I bet when you start treating her like someone you're in love with, someone you can share your soul with, etc., the relationship will improve. Just my guess.

[Jenny]

Originally Posted by A.K.Light

Is that really the right way to go? Why can't I talk to women more openly and freely without worrying about hurting them, like I do with guys? Had I said what I would have said to a guy friend, the whole thing would have been over in 2 minutes, but instead I swallowed it, and it made it awkward for 25 minutes.

I asked my girlfriend to allow me to conduct an experiment with her, where I would just be more open and not worry about her feelings as much, hopefully making communication easier. She agreed.

Do you think this experiment is a good idea? I won't be mean or anything, but maybe I'm working on something good here. What are your thoughts? I'll bet most woman can take WAY more than I've somehow conditioned myself to believe.

I think it sounds like a great experiment! You and your girlfriend will certainly learn about yourselves and each other as this progresses.

For a large portion of my life I responded similarly with everyone (ughh) and this was further exaggerated when I was in a relationship. I was extremely worried about saying something mean or causing hurt feelings. Oh, so much wasted time and energy! Thankfully an ex-boyfriend had absolutely no patience with my pretending that all was well when it wasn't but much patience as I struggled to get better at expressing what was frustrating me. He will have a part of my heart forever for showing me how much easier life is when I am honest about what is bothering me whether it be hurt feelings or frustration over another's actions.

Speaking as a woman I much prefer honest and open communication and yep, can take way more of that then most people around me seem able or willing to give. Luckily I do have a couple close friends (including one wonderful guy friend so I know it's possible) with whom I can speak absolutely openly, but as you note not unkindly, about anything including that which is uncomfortable. It is very freeing and little annoyances tend to stay little annoyances as they are talked about and dealt with on the spot rather than festering.

Love to hear how this experiment goes!

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by A.K.Light

Do you think this experiment is a good idea? I won't be mean or anything, but maybe I'm working on something good here. What are your thoughts? I'll bet most woman can take WAY more than I've somehow conditioned myself to believe.

Yes!!! (using multiple exclamation marks means I really, really approve).

Mind you, I'm a guy. Dunno if my opinion counts.

Regardless (since I'll give my opinion anyway ), I truly don't see how honesty should be any worse than diplomatic non-statements. I understand that it is because of a number of perceived social norms, but in my experience, ignoring those norms leads to far more meaningful relationships.

Originally Posted by NotesMaeve

You don't think we can emotionally hack it. You really think you're so superior as a man you can better deal with things like disappointment and pain. (I've known a good number of men like this.)

She overslept and you're laying a guilt trip on her. "I can't believe you ****ing overslept," is a lot less hurtful than, "Well, if you cared about being here, you could set an alarm." How is that protecting her feelings? That smacks more of manipulation than "protection."

Having been in the mind set A.K. described, I'd say it's not that we don't think you can't hack it, but that we feel we shouldn't burden you with it, or even possibly that we're afraid making a deal out of it will cause you to lose respect for us.

But then I suppose I should stop speaking for A.K.Light, because although what he said reads exactly as how I've felt in the past, your interpretation shows that my own interpretation could also be very different from reality. So in my case it has never been about any sense of superiority (I actually felt that most of my girlfriends were more emotionally secure, which was totally wrong in one case, arguable in another, and true in some).

For me it was ultimately the fear of losing what little attention I got. It's the thing which turns a guy into a "needy" guy. Arguably it's the definition of a needy guy.

If it were anything to do with lack of respect, it would be not respecting your ability to react however you feel appropriate, and deal with it rationally. But still, the stereotype of the irrational, overly emotional girlfriend matches the stereotype of the laid-back guy who doesn't care about little things like her not turning up on time. In other words I don't think we always respect each other enough to look past the stereotypes that influence our attitudes and behaviours.

Originally Posted by Jenny

Speaking as a woman I much prefer honest and open communication and yep, can take way more of that then most people around me seem able or willing to give. Luckily I do have a couple close friends (including one wonderful guy friend so I know it's possible) with whom I can speak absolutely openly, but as you note not unkindly, about anything including that which is uncomfortable. It is very freeing and little annoyances tend to stay little annoyances as they are talked about and dealt with on the spot rather than festering.

Ever since I've started being more open with others, and trusting them to let me know if anything I've said or done has hurt them, I've developed much stronger relationships than in the past. That a platonic one like ours can span such a huge distance and still feel so strong, proves to me that openness is far greater than politely holding back out of either fear or a misplaced sense of what's "proper." Thanks Jenny

[A.K.Light]

Originally Posted by NotesMaeve

You know why you're afraid of hurting women's feelings?

You don't respect us.

You don't think we can emotionally hack it. You really think you're so superior as a man you can better deal with things like disappointment and pain. (I've known a good number of men like this.)

She overslept and you're laying a guilt trip on her. "I can't believe you ****ing overslept," is a lot less hurtful than, "Well, if you cared about being here, you could set an alarm." How is that protecting her feelings? That smacks more of manipulation than "protection."

I bet when you start treating her like someone you're in love with, someone you can share your soul with, etc., the relationship will improve. Just my guess.

I really do not think it's a matter of not respecting women. However, I do see how my faults could be seen as disrespect now that I understand what's happening. I don't think I'm superior emotionally. Maybe I do somehow think that I can cope with pain better than most people, so I'm glad you said that. And it's not like I disrespect them or think they are lesser than me, it's just that if I was given a choice, I'd probably take all the pain for myself to save the people I care for from it. (Note that if it was something that really upset me, I wouldn't hide it and let it fester only to sabotage the relationship later on.)

I totally agree that saying "I can't believe you overslept!" is much easier on a person's feelings than saying something like "If you cared about being here, you would have set an alarm." I did not want to say that! I didn't want to say anything. I didnt' even want her to know it bothered me, but she could tell something was wrong. As I tried to figure it out I was speaking out loud and trying to understand how I got that feeling. I thought that might have expressed what I felt while I was still waiting for her. I would never want to manipulate anybody, especially her! If I did it on accident, I am ashamed of myself!

Very good post. Thank you.

[A.K.Light]

Jenny, Thank you. I'm glad to hear your point of view and that you've been through it before. Thanks for the encouragement!

Mark - Yes, that sounds a lot like me. I wouldn't have those words exactly, but I think we're basically saying the same thing. I definitely do not want to come across as needy or demanding! It's nice that we can relate on this, both being men and having been in the same postion. Thanks!

Just a note, this is the most serious relationship I've ever been in and by the far the best, longest lasting, and most liberating. Especially since we can discuss an issue and decide to perform experiments and move on to have an excellent night together. I'm extremey happy with her.

[A.K.Light]

Thinking more now, I remember so many times where I just felt aweful thinking that I had upset her (or any other woman). It's like I've always felt too responsible. It's one of the only times that I actually really carry around negative feelings and feel bad about myself. I feel guilty. I feel like a bad person. If I fight with one of my best guy friends, and we part ways, I don't sit there and worry about it. I don't feel guilty, worry about how they are, or if they'll stop being my friend. I just know it's fine still.

Wow, relationships sure teach you a lot.

[m18pak]

A.K.Light, maybe you're just naturally very chivalrous.

I'm not sure what it is, but some men simply seem to value women more than others. Maybe it's a genetic thing, like how some men are taller than others.

PS. NotesMaeve, not to sound sexist, but most women actually can't handle brutal honesty as well as men. It's just the truth.

You seem like you're quite touchy about this matter. Do you insist on doing things like lifting heavy objects all by yourself too?

[NotesMaeve]

Aw, dammit. I just wrote something smashing and then refreshed the browser.

Anyway, shorter version: When you respect yourself, you can:

1) Trust someone with your whole heart. This means sharing your unabashed feelings.

2) Respect them, rather than trying to guilt them or do otherwise.

Mark, you respect yourself now. AK, you'll get there.

[A.K.Light]

Originally Posted by NotesMaeve

Aw, dammit. I just wrote something smashing and then refreshed the browser.

LoL, oops! I hate that.

Originally Posted by NotesMaeve

Anyway, shorter version: When you respect yourself, you can:

1) Trust someone with your whole heart. This means sharing your unabashed feelings.

2) Respect them, rather than trying to guilt them or do otherwise.

Mark, you respect yourself now. AK, you'll get there.

Thanks. Fortunately, I wasn't born perfect, so I have lots to keep me busy! I didn't want to guilt her or anything like that. I didn't want to make her hurt or feel bad about what she did. It was a tiny thing, and if I could have pressed a button and dissolved the issue, I would have. I don't think I've ever tried to guilt somebody in my whole life. But I won't disregard the idea, because then I'm cutting off learning possibilities. Maybe you can see something I can't from your objective point of view.

[NotesMaeve]

^^ Same here. Man, I got EXPLOSIVELY angry about something ancient the other day because my mom mentioned something about not talking to my dad about me because it makes him angry to hear about me.

I have to work to surrender that anger before I act. It gets easier and you'll become more and more conscious of it.

[Angela]

A.K. Light, this feeling of responsibility for your girl's feelings and emotional state -- how old is that? Can you remember feeling that way about, say, your mom when you were little? Was there a price to be paid if you said or did something that triggered undesireable feelings for your mom or for another female around you?

[Brutha]

There is nothing wrong with feeling responsibilty for what's happening around you.
However it is sometimes necessary to do things that you upset someone.

When something upsets you and you have to find a way to deal with it (you couldn't get hold of her).
Trying to overcontrol things instead of letting things flow and being in the moment leads to bad behavior.

It natural that some energy bounces back when someone hurts you. You can take responsibilty for doing that and not feel bad.

If you choose not to deal consciously with that negative energy you might follow bad patterns of trying to protect other from yourself.
Another choice is to say her what you think about her behavior, while being fully conscious that it might upset her and taking the responsibilty for behaving that way and being in control of the situation.

In life you sometimes have to accept the responsibility for hurting others. Otherwise you will hurt other without being aware of hurting them, which is far worse.

[laciemn1]

Originally Posted by NotesMaeve

You know why you're afraid of hurting women's feelings?

You don't respect us.

You don't think we can emotionally hack it. You really think you're so superior as a man you can better deal with things like disappointment and pain. (I've known a good number of men like this.)

She overslept and you're laying a guilt trip on her. "I can't believe you ****ing overslept," is a lot less hurtful than, "Well, if you cared about being here, you could set an alarm." How is that protecting her feelings? That smacks more of manipulation than "protection."

I bet when you start treating her like someone you're in love with, someone you can share your soul with, etc., the relationship will improve. Just my guess.

That absolutely isn't the problem, at least that's what I'm betting. I have the same problem with my (sort of) girlfriend, I can't possibly just get little things out of the way as easily as I can with my (female) friends. I would do the same thing, I just wouldn't mention the fact that she was late while if it was a female friend I'd be all, "where the hell have you been?"

It's not that I think she's too emotionally sensitive or anything, I just can't comfortably express my feelings most of the time. If she did something that hurt me, I'd be more likely to pretend everything is fine and normal than actually confront the issue.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by laciemn1

It's not that I think she's too emotionally sensitive or anything, I just can't comfortably express my feelings most of the time. If she did something that hurt me, I'd be more likely to pretend everything is fine and normal than actually confront the issue.

Do you know why you do that?

I'm asking because you are setting yourself up for a very unstable relationship. While pretending that everything is fine, you are bottling up resentment inside. Your bottle doesn't have infinite capacity... and you don't want to see it explode! That is not a pretty sight!

Don't walk on eggshells all the time, specially not with your girlfriend.

[Amadeus]

Actually I think you should really examine the role your mother played in your family, your relationship with her, and your father's relationship with her. Examine it well. I don't know your family situation, but it seems like you are trying to protect women (your mother) by not hurting their feelings. Maybe your mother had a hard life and was criticised a lot. Maybe your mother would go off the deep end anytime something negative happened in her life and you knew not to set her off.

[laciemn1]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

Do you know why you do that?

I'm asking because you are setting yourself up for a very unstable relationship. While pretending that everything is fine, you are bottling up resentment inside. Your bottle doesn't have infinite capacity... and you don't want to see it explode! That is not a pretty sight!

Don't walk on eggshells all the time, specially not with your girlfriend.

I know, it's not good. Sometimes I do feel anger, but I feel that If I can become well-balanced enough through reflection, I can understand her actions and forgive her for it without her having to be involved. Sometimes I do pull away..like when I just don't feel like dealing with any emotion at all, or I don't want to have to guess at why she does the things she does.

There are times when I'm very happy and comfortable with her, but it seems a lot of the problems stem from me feeling an incredible amount of pressure to be understanding, funny, nice, etc. However, sometimes I think to myself, I don't owe this to anyone, I don't have to change. Then she thinks my feelings have changed because I'm not considering her as much.

Also, she's a very strange girl. Like she'll be extremely loving for a little while, then she'll get distracted by something. Another person, partying, studies, some game she's obsessing over. I know it's normal, I do the same things, we all have phases, but I feel a lot of pressure to keep her attention and make sure she knows I appreciate her. I often fear she'll give up on me.

Despite the pressure I feel, I don't think I actually ever get the message across.

[laciemn1]

Originally Posted by NotesMaeve

^^ Same here. Man, I got EXPLOSIVELY angry about something ancient the other day because my mom mentioned something about not talking to my dad about me because it makes him angry to hear about me.

I have to work to surrender that anger before I act. It gets easier and you'll become more and more conscious of it.

What happened? Why would your dad be mad to hear about you?