How to change my approach on finding/dating guys?

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by Angela

The trick is to not to try to make that work with a man who is also more of the "leader."

why Angela? Leadership can be shared. (A man who's not more of the leader is likely to be boring to Lifequest, if I understand her well)

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

why Angela? Leadership can be shared. (A man who's not more of the leader is likely to be boring to Lifequest, if I understand her well)

Rose, each person can be a leader in a relationship, but if one person needs to be THE leader, she would be wise to pick a mate who doesn't also require that.

Actually, I don't think Lifequest would be bored by a man who is less of a leader than herself. I may be wrong, but I get the impression that she would be happy to take on more of that role. I'm not talking about a wimpy pussball who allows her to push him around; I'm talking about a man who may be more of a creative type, less ambitious in the traditional sense, more willing to allow her to set the tone, the finances, the direction of the relationship. That's the "exception" I was talking about in the "let men ask you out" thread -- I think that thread was "What Women Want."

[Rose of Cairo]

Ah, now I understand.

I think it was "Should women ask men out?"

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

Ah, now I understand.

I think it was "Should women ask men out?"

Yeah, they're all starting to blend together in my memory.

[Marvinq]

Originally Posted by lifequest

And many people, including my family and a few of my close pals have told me that unless I change, I'm gonna be single for a long while. But that's the thing: aren't supposed to be yourself in a relationship, and not change for anyone?

Being single is totally different than being in a relationship. Obviously, there are habits that are keeping you single. To be successful in a relationship you do have to change. I'm not saying you HAVE to wear a dress. I'm saying you have to try different things to attract the guy you want into your life.

Think about what kind of guy you want in your life and think about just what kind of girl is that guy looking for. And become that girl.

Originally Posted by lifequest

Plus, most of the guys that have shown interest in me in the last few years have been low self-esteem guys that want someone to boss them around. Yes, I know I am bossy. I work in a field where I have to take decision constantly, be able to defend them and give orders to people. And that's maybe why I attract those guys. But, I believe that a relationship should be between to equal partners, not a relationship where one is bossing the other one around. So that doesn't work.

Maybe you need another engineer? Someone in a higher position than you.

Originally Posted by lifequest

So here's the situation:
1) I'd like to date, but I don't even know where to start. My last relationship lasted 7 years and started while I was in school. So I couldn't experiment while I was in college like many people suggest. I currently have zero dating experience, really, and since I'm not that good in the social departement, especially when it comes to man/woman relationship besides friendship (remember, I'm an engineer with all the sterotypes that come with the job) well, things aren't going pretty good...

Forget about all this "I have no experience" excuse. Just improve yourself in the social department. I would recommend speed dating myself to improve your social skills. You don't have to actually go out with anyone.

But, I'll tell you one thing that improved my social skills with women. I would go in with the intention to get as many women to say yes to me as possible. Not as an ego thing but just a test to see if I was turning off women or turning on to me. I would say "yes" to all the women I talked to. When the results were revealed I'd count how many said "yes" to me. That would be my gauge on how I did socially. Eventually I'd score in the 90% range.

Originally Posted by lifequest

2)I don't know anything about the dating scene really. I haven't tried internet dating, but I can't say I'm really looking forward to meet total strangers on the net. Going to clubs? Well, usually, that's not the kind of place where you meet people interested in real relationship, plus I don't have the "look". Through work I can't meet anyone (small office of 20 people, where we spend the most of our time working alone, with very few interaction with the outside), and in college (I'm finishing my last semester right now), well, guys are like 20 years old, so definitely not what I'm looking for.

3) Most friends and family are of not help in meeting guys, their socials networks does not involve single guys in my age range that don't know me already and aren't my friends.

Stop focusing on what you cannot do. Focus on what you can do. Remember the saying by Henry Ford "Obstacles are those frighting things that become visible when we take our eyes of our goal". Keep you eyes on your goal.

Originally Posted by lifequest

4) I know I probably do some stuff wrong and send the wrong signals to guys. I've tried looking for a "lifestyle" or "seduction" coach in my area, but have found none for women (only for men, as if they're the only ones having a hard time to date!). I've tried reading a book or two, but it doesn't really work because since I don't know what I'm doing wrong, well, how can I change it (and when I mean change, I don't mean acting like a different person, I mean acting true to myself, but in a way that will get guys interested).

You can achieve this, like I said earlier try Speed Dating. With every session try different things when you talk to the guys. See which "you" gets the most yeses.

Originally Posted by lifequest

5) I know there are coaches online, but if the coach if find lives across the country, how do I know that person can really help me since he/she won't know the specifics of the city and the culture where I live?

So, if anyone has suggestions on how I could tackle this "problem", I'd really appreciate any insights. I do believe I am a kind person that has a lot to offer, but unless I find a way to come across to guys, well, I'll stay single.

I'm sure I speak for everyone here Lifequest, we're here for you. Dating was a HUGE problem for me before, so I can share a lot from a guys point of view though. For you I strongly recommend speed dating because it will be a fun and quick way to try different things. Try talking about different subjects... acting slightly differently...etc..etc...

I hope this helps

[lifequest]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

These guys wouldn't go away for a year even after you told them straight that you weren't interested in them? I've never heard of anyone that needy! What finally got them to quit?

I'm in the engineering field. My university is specialized in engineering (it's not a department of engineering in a university, it's the university!). So, basically, there's 80% guys and 20% girls. So some guys are just pretty desperate... And I'm not the only girl who's had that problem at that school. What got them to quit? Telling straight forward I'm not interested many times, and then ending up ignoring them afterward if they pursue, because continuing to interact with them makes them believe they are making progress, and that soon I'm gonna see they're "great guys" and that I'm gonna change my mind about them and will want to go out with them. Yeah, I know what you're thinking, I don't understand that strategy either...

As for asking a guy out, the thing that makes me uncomfortable about that is if you get in a relationship with the guy afterwards, it can be hard to know if the guy is with you because he's really interested, or just because it's convenient to be with you because you showed an interested. I guess I wouldn't feel comfortable inviting a guy on a date, but instead, I think a good way to go about that could be to organize a group activity with many friends (like a frisbee game or something), and invite him there. The stress of being on a date wouldn't be there, you have a great time, and if he's interested afterwards, he can invite you to do something else (i.e. the ball would be in his court). Call me old fashioned, but I believe a guy has to play at least some part of the courtship...

[lifequest]

Originally Posted by Aurora

I just wanted to tell you that I actually read this thread yesterday and deided it was time for myself to do some improvments on what I wear and how I look.

Sometimes it feels bad to eb a oman and wanna spoil oneself with makeup and/or clothes/handbags/shoes/whatev.. But the thing that got to me was - Why shouldn't I try to make myself feel good about myself.

The thing about dressing up for me, not for everyone else, is sorta new.

Sometimes, even blondes have "aha" moments.

You're absolutely right. The thing is to do it for yourself, not for anyone else. Thing is, over the years, many people have offered to help in the "looks" department, but I've always felt that they wanted to help me look like them, or what a girl "should" look like. So it just turned me off completed, and I've never shown an interest in fashion or whatever. But the idea of doing it for myself puts an entirely different perspective on that.

[lifequest]

Originally Posted by Angela

Rose, each person can be a leader in a relationship, but if one person needs to be THE leader, she would be wise to pick a mate who doesn't also require that.

Actually, I don't think Lifequest would be bored by a man who is less of a leader than herself. I may be wrong, but I get the impression that she would be happy to take on more of that role. I'm not talking about a wimpy pussball who allows her to push him around; I'm talking about a man who may be more of a creative type, less ambitious in the traditional sense, more willing to allow her to set the tone, the finances, the direction of the relationship. That's the "exception" I was talking about in the "let men ask you out" thread -- I think that thread was "What Women Want."

Thing is, I've always been a natural leader. It's part of who I am, and to deny it would be wrong. I don't mind sharing though. In fact, I even like it, because always being in charge gets tiring sometimes. I guess the best way is to find balance, and maybe that each partner can be the leader in regards of different aspects of the relationship (food, cleaning, finances, leisure, etc.)?

But what happens, since I have particular tastes and that most of the activities I do aren't ones that women traditionnally do (i.e. the engineering, being the best example), I find that it some men who aren't comfortable in their masculinity can feel threathened by me. Like my ex. He always felt less of a man because I was in science, he wasn't, I was good in sports, he wasn't, etc... But I didn't care! I used to love the guy for who he was, not for what he couldn't do. I know, you could say that I only have to find a guy who is comfortable with himself, and I agree. But that isn't something that's written on his forehead when you meet a guy...

[lifequest]

Originally Posted by Marvinq

Maybe you need another engineer? Someone in a higher position than you.

From experience, that isn't necessarily a sure way for success...

Originally Posted by Marvinq

But, I'll tell you one thing that improved my social skills with women. I would go in with the intention to get as many women to say yes to me as possible. Not as an ego thing but just a test to see if I was turning off women or turning on to me. I would say "yes" to all the women I talked to. When the results were revealed I'd count how many said "yes" to me. That would be my gauge on how I did socially. Eventually I'd score in the 90% range.

Men and women work differently. I'd say it's easier for a woman to get a man to say yes than the other way around... Not that I'm implying that guys are easy, but...

Originally Posted by Marvinq

Stop focusing on what you cannot do. Focus on what you can do. Remember the saying by Henry Ford "Obstacles are those frighting things that become visible when we take our eyes of our goal". Keep you eyes on your goal.

Good point. No argument from my part here.

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by lifequest

I'm in the engineering field. My university is specialized in engineering (it's not a department of engineering in a university, it's the university!). So, basically, there's 80% guys and 20% girls. So some guys are just pretty desperate... And I'm not the only girl who's had that problem at that school.

Poor guys. They should take a few psychology units. The guy/girl ratio is probably about 90/10

Originally Posted by lifequest

What got them to quit? Telling straight forward I'm not interested many times, and then ending up ignoring them afterward if they pursue, because continuing to interact with them makes them believe they are making progress, and that soon I'm gonna see they're "great guys" and that I'm gonna change my mind about them and will want to go out with them. Yeah, I know what you're thinking, I don't understand that strategy either...

Yup, it doesn't make sense to me, and I've been one of those needy guys. Being ignored after clear signs of interest in confusing, but there shouldn't be anything to misinterpret in being plainly told that she's just not interested, and then being ignored. Maybe they had friends telling them that they were worthwhile and that you're crazy for not being interested, but that they should move on, but they ignored the "move on" and focused on "she should be interested in me". *shrug*

Originally Posted by lifequest

As for asking a guy out, the thing that makes me uncomfortable about that is if you get in a relationship with the guy afterwards, it can be hard to know if the guy is with you because he's really interested, or just because it's convenient to be with you because you showed an interested.

Welcome to my world (just swap 'guy' for 'girl' )

Originally Posted by lifequest

I guess I wouldn't feel comfortable inviting a guy on a date, but instead, I think a good way to go about that could be to organize a group activity with many friends (like a frisbee game or something), and invite him there. The stress of being on a date wouldn't be there, you have a great time, and if he's interested afterwards, he can invite you to do something else (i.e. the ball would be in his court). Call me old fashioned, but I believe a guy has to play at least some part of the courtship...

For sure. I'd be up for that.

Seriously though, you're right, the guy has to take the initiative at some point, but not necessarily right from the start, and not necessarily all the time (which means I think inviting him to a group activity is a great idea. It could also weed out the guys who are too shy/anti-social, or too keen on just being with you. If that's the kind of guy you want to avoid).

Originally Posted by lifequest

Thing is, I've always been a natural leader. It's part of who I am, and to deny it would be wrong. I don't mind sharing though. In fact, I even like it, because always being in charge gets tiring sometimes. I guess the best way is to find balance, and maybe that each partner can be the leader in regards of different aspects of the relationship (food, cleaning, finances, leisure, etc.)?

*thumbs up*

Agreed 100%. I truly don't believe that either one of the couple needs to be 'the' leader. Particularly when both are strong, independent, confident, yet considerate and caring people. I'm forever grateful to one of my ex's who showed me the distinction between being considerate for someone else's desires, and overwhelming them with needless questions. That's where taking the lead comes in; asking for an opinion on truly important matters (like when to go on a long holiday), and just taking charge on less important matters or ones that can be a surprise (what to make for lunch, and where and when to take a day trip out to the country). Being asked for an opinion on every minor detail of every decision would drive someone nuts!

Originally Posted by lifequest

But what happens, since I have particular tastes and that most of the activities I do aren't ones that women traditionnally do (i.e. the engineering, being the best example), I find that it some men who aren't comfortable in their masculinity can feel threathened by me. Like my ex. He always felt less of a man because I was in science, he wasn't, I was good in sports, he wasn't, etc... But I didn't care! I used to love the guy for who he was, not for what he couldn't do.

You just need to find a guy who's comfortable with himself, and who's happy with you as you are!

Ok ok, sorry, couldn't help myself

I find it incredibly difficult to understand how men feel threatened by women who are successful in traditionally male fields. Well, intellectually I can understand it, it somehow reflects poorly on themselves, contrasting negatively against their own apparent lack of skills/achievement. But it doesn't make sense. Surely they have their own achievements/skills? Including ones that you don't?

But I just don't feel it. Quite the opposite, in fact. So go away before you start to seem even more appealing!

Originally Posted by lifequest

I know, you could say that I only have to find a guy who is comfortable with himself, and I agree. But that isn't something that's written on his forehead when you meet a guy...

True, and the unfortunate thing is that a guy can also be comfortable with himself, but nervous in a dating situation, and so appear uncomfortable! It's amazing how quickly we form an impression, and how lasting it is. And I'm talking about the evidence research shows, not just personal experience

[Angela]

Just to be absolutely clear, Lifequest, my reference to being "the leader" goes back to something very specific we spoke about in another thread. I spoke of you as being one of the exceptions to my general guideline that women will usually do better in a relationship if she allows the man to ask her out THE FIRST TIME. In that way, not necessarily in others, he takes, and she gives him, the experience of being "the leader." In my experience and in talking with lots of women, this usually works out for the best for both the guy and the girl.

The exceptions to that include: if the woman has a natural tendency to prefer to be more ambitious and to be more "alpha" AND the man is the complement to that nature -- willing to yield the reigns more than your average guy and less ambitious in the traditional sense. That's the impression I get from you, so I can see where you might thrive in a relationship in which you make the first invitation.

Another exception (a really rare one) was brought to my attention by the Pavlinas -- a combination of two people who are pretty much equally matched in the areas of yin/yang, with a strong preponderance of both in both.

This whole concept started off a firestorm of controversy in that other thread, and I request that any controversy stay over in that thread; I just wanted to clarify for Lifequest that I was talking about the specific incidence of asking a person out for the very first time, and not the general responsibility for leadership in the relationship.

Over and out.

[Mark Lapierre]

Since I brought it up it's fair that I find the link. So here it is. And here's Angela's post

[NotesMaeve]

But we can create a NEW firestorm here, right? I mean, I freaking come here for the firestorms (but I stay for the cake).