Relationship Problems

[Terumoto]

I can't figure out whether I should leave or stay with my gf. There are two girls right now that are important in my life. I'll explain (forgive the length of this post lol).

Girl 1: This is my girlfriend. I've been with her for almost five years. I feel love towards her, I care about her, I am physically attracted to her. Recently, the love I feel for her has changed from a romantic, passionate love to a love born from compassion for another human being. This is because I feel like she doesn't understand me. I've had long discussions with her about various issues, and she doesn't really get what I'm trying to say. We fight pretty often, at least once every few days. Not serious fights, but fights nonetheless. She is a good girlfriend, almost always honest, loving, caring and helpful. She does a lot for me, she even buys me random gifts.

Although, when she gets mad, she becomes what I might describe as hostile, even obnoxious. She admits that she has a short temper and is a bit of a drama queen, I just have to deal with it. Which I would have no problem with doing, except that I don't feel a "connection" with her, the understanding, which is very important to me. Our relationship goes very deep, but because of that lack of understanding, it feels shallow.

Girl 2: I have known this girl for as long as I can remember, she is a family friend. Only recently have I become close with her. She lives a few hours away, and I don't see her much... Maybe once every few months at best. By close with her, I mean we talk daily. Before we started talking more, I only talked to her when I saw her. That's not to say we weren't "close" when we were together. Since we were young, there was always "something" between us, but I could never quite put my finger on what it was. I felt something towards her, and I somehow knew she felt that same something towards me.

Anyway, my point is there is something about this girl that captivates me. I love that without words or anything, there's this thing that we both understand. Most important of all to me is her eyes. According to almost everyone who meets me, I am a mysterious person. Even my girlfriend, who knows more about me than anyone else does, says that I am a mystery to her and she can never tell what I'm really thinking. Girl 2, on the other hand, she has eyes that completely and utterly pierce straight through me. When she looks at me, it's as if she just "knows," and that's that. Likewise, I can tell her mood by just looking at her.

Even if I'm talking to her over an instant messenger, that kind of thing is still there. I try to convey something that can't be conveyed through words, with words, and she sees the words and gets the original thing I was trying to convey. With my girlfriend, I try to convey something that can't be conveyed with words, and she just sees the words and tries to figure out a new meaning. That's what I mean by the lack of understanding. My girlfriend always asks me to be more open about my feelings, she wants me to explain so she can understand, but I really can't. I wish I could, but it's as if words are too inadequate to convey what I need to.

I feel like me and my girlfriend are just very different people. The problem is she really, really loves me, she wants to marry me. She has openly said it, many times, she even talks about it as if there's no question about it happening. She is such a wonderful person, but I feel like maybe somebody else would be able to appreciate her good qualities more than I can. I don't really care for gifts or words, but surely there is a man out there who would love those things and be able to make her happy like she should be.

I decided to be honest, and admit to myself that I am in love with girl 2, because I really am totally in love with her. I've told my gf about loving and missing girl 2, and she decided that it's OK as long as I'm not in a romantic relationship with her and I just love her like I would a sister or a friend. It still upsets her a lot, though. Truthfully, I don't just love her like a sister or friend. I'm sure she wishes it would all go away, but she doesn't dare take action, because she wants to be with me. She's even said "I wish I could say to you that this is it, it's either me or her, but I don't want to... Because I know you would pick her."

She tells me it wouldn't be so bad if I made her feel a bit more loved. In her words, it's like there's two columns, one is my girlfriend's, one is girl B's, and in girl B's column is all the reasons why I love her, but there's nothing in my girlfriends column. She would feel better if she could say "well, he loves this about her, but *slides finger across to other column* he loves this about me!" except it's more like "well, he loves this about her, but... Oh... There's nothing in my column *tear*." I just can't make her feel loved because we are so different. I don't feel it, and I don't want to lie.

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So that's my problem, in an (abnormally large) nutshell. Do I break up with her, cause her a lot of pain, and lose a very great person in my life? Do I not break up with her, and cause her a lot of pain anyway because I love someone else? I'm constantly trying to find faults in girl B and destroy my love for her, because I think sometimes it might be an illusion, like there's something that I'm not considering, something that could ruin it... I can't find anything. The times I was the most content in my life were times I spent with her. To me, she's perfect, like an angel. It's a shame that she lives so far away, because I don't know what to do about it. She will most likely move to the city in which I live after she finishes her education (which will take years). I'm willing to wait as long as it takes, but still, I don't know what will happen.

Anyone have any advice? Or maybe experience something similar?

[JimOfferman]

The grass is always greener on the other side. You don't really know what you had until after you lost it... etc.

All I can say to you is decide what is best for you and do that. If you are really unhappy in your current situation, you are not doing anyone any favors by staying. But be warned that the idyllic picture you have painted in your head about how things will be when you hook up if girl2 (assuming she really wants to do that) is probably a little greener than reality will be.

On the difference in communication between girl1 and girl2, I just want to say this: you are solely responsible for making other people understand your words and actions, not the other way around. If someone doesn't understand you, it's up to you to change your way of communicating with him or her. You simply cannot expect someone to know how they should change their understanding of your words to get at your exact message. That would only work if the other person could also read your mind. Most people I know can't do that.

(The people who seemingly can read my mind are those who have a total understanding of my default mode of communication)

[Terumoto]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

The grass is always greener on the other side. You don't really know what you had until after you lost it... etc.

All I can say to you is decide what is best for you and do that. If you are really unhappy in your current situation, you are not doing anyone any favors by staying. But be warned that the idyllic picture you have painted in your head about how things will be when you hook up if girl2 (assuming she really wants to do that) is probably a little greener than reality will be.

On the difference in communication between girl1 and girl2, I just want to say this: you are solely responsible for making other people understand your words and actions, not the other way around. If someone doesn't understand you, it's up to you to change your way of communicating with him or her. You simply cannot expect someone to know how they should change their understanding of your words to get at your exact message. That would only work if the other person could also read your mind. Most people I know can't do that.

(The people who seemingly can read my mind are those who have a total understanding of my default mode of communication)

It's just that it's not me I'm worried about, I'm alright. My girlfriend is the one that's having a hard time, but she wants to stay with me. It's no problem for me to stay, it would probably be more difficult to leave her.

I've really been trying to stop feeling this way about girl 2, for the reasons you mentioned. The only way I can find faults in her is to get to know her better, that was my original logic, but it seems like the more I get to know her the more I end up loving her. Maybe I'll soon find something.

With the communication thing, that was just an example. It's not like I'm saying obscure things. No words can adequately convey feelings and thoughts, and unless the person being talked to is on the "same page" mentally as the talker, understanding can't take place. I'm not saying I'm smarter or less intelligent than my girlfriend, but we aren't on the "same page" with things like feelings and thoughts, hers are very different from mine, I think it is just our nature. Girl 2 seems to be naturally intuitive towards my feelings, which makes things a lot easier.

I might also add that I'm pretty inexperienced at life, I'm young, and my current girlfriend is my first ever girlfriend. Apart from one childhood boy-girl relationship, which I don't think counts. My feelings for girl 2 are not infatuation, they've been constant for almost all of the time I've known her.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by Terumoto

It's just that it's not me I'm worried about, I'm alright. My girlfriend is the one that's having a hard time, but she wants to stay with me. It's no problem for me to stay, it would probably be more difficult to leave her.

How can you be alright when your gf is having a hard time? Your staying with her is not an act of kindness, it is cruel! You are depriving her of a chance to have a relationship with someone who is fully committed to her and not looking elsewhere. Your head is still with her, but your heart is already out the door.

Either stay and be committed to her and her alone or go and leave her in peace.

With the communication thing, that was just an example. It's not like I'm saying obscure things. No words can adequately convey feelings and thoughts, and unless the person being talked to is on the "same page" mentally as the talker, understanding can't take place.

Not when you don't take responsibility for it. I know it is much, much easier talking to someone who is on the same page as you. But when she is not, it really is up to you to flip back a few pages and allow her to catch up.

Of course it is easier to talk to people who are already on the same page, but don't limit yourself by interacting only with those people. Even if they are on the same page now, they might not be in the future.

I might also add that I'm pretty inexperienced at life, I'm young, and my current girlfriend is my first ever girlfriend. Apart from one childhood boy-girl relationship, which I don't think counts. My feelings for girl 2 are not infatuation, they've been constant for almost all of the time I've known her.

You are about to become more experienced then. First you have to make a tough choice: stay or go. I nor anyone else on this forum can make that choice for you. You're on your own, kiddo! Listen to your heart and head. Know also that either choice is absolutely right. The only thing you can do wrong is not make a choice at all - which amounts to avoiding responsibility for your life and your actions. But you are not the kind of guy who does that, from the sound of it.

Good luck!

[Terumoto]

lol, I'm actually really indecisive. -_-

Oh well. I'll tell my girlfriend right now "I don't know if I want to be with you anymore."

Thanks for the advice (and the luck... I'll need it).

[Bitsy]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

On the difference in communication between girl1 and girl2, I just want to say this: you are solely responsible for making other people understand your words and actions, not the other way around. If someone doesn't understand you, it's up to you to change your way of communicating with him or her. You simply cannot expect someone to know how they should change their understanding of your words to get at your exact message. That would only work if the other person could also read your mind. Most people I know can't do that.

Terumoto, I have some experience of what you are talking about. While it may be so that "the burden of communication is on the communicator," not everything written above is accurate for application to human communication.

I have extensive experience in communication in several different languages with people from around the world, and in relationships. It is a clear fact to me that certain individuals are innately closer in understanding one another than others, and it's much deeper than simply "being on the same page".

I had an experience where I communicated with one man in English and another in French. French was neither of our native languages. Despite communicating in English, I swear I could never figure out what the guy who spoke English was talking about and he never understood me either. We had one fight after another and I just got fed up and thought he was some kind of idiot at languages in the end, because I couldn't understand how his English and French could be so unfathomably bad (esp as he was a French teacher in his country).

However, the one I spoke French with, no matter how wrong my grammar or vocabulary was, no matter how bad his spelling, we always had an innate understanding, often times without having to finish what we were saying.

Understanding, IMO, is of utmost importance in a relationship. I can speak to another native English-speaker, or someone who speaks English fluently, and articulate in such detail that a 2-year-old could understand what I mean, but the person I'm talking to will have no idea, or he may think he understands, but he gets it wrong.

You are not responsible for ensuring that your listener have a high enough level of intelligence or life experience, or be enough like you that he or she is capable of understanding you.

You guys already wrote 3 more posts .

Ok, you took your decision. I think Jim is right otherwise too.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by Terumoto

I've really been trying to stop feeling this way about girl 2, for the reasons you mentioned. The only way I can find faults in her is to get to know her better, that was my original logic, but it seems like the more I get to know her the more I end up loving her. Maybe I'll soon find something.

Oh really, so when you'll find her faults, you'll stop loving her? You know what, that's not love! You love the idea you have of Girl2, not the girl herself. You're being pretty unfair to consider her as perfect. Because she's not perfect, nobody is. So she can only fail in your eyes, sooner or later. The day you'll find out that she's not perfect, you'll find Girl3, who will be seemingly perfect, and lose interest in Girl2 just like you lost interest in imperfect Girl1.

Boy, loving someone means loving them all inclusive, with their faults, their weaknesses, with the communication problems and everything. Not even despite of all that, but WITH all that.

IMO Girl1 and Girl2 both deserve someone who really loves them, which obviously is not the case with you. So my advice is: leave both of them and try to stop judging them.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by Bitsy

You are not responsible for ensuring that your listener have a high enough level of intelligence or life experience, or be enough like you that he or she is capable of understanding you.

We'll have to agree to disagree there, as I really think you are responsible for that. You want to get your message across properly. If you don't care about that, you might as well start conversing with the walls.

[Terumoto]

Bitsy: Thanks, that's the kind of thing I was trying to get at. It's good somebody else has experience with it, now I know I'm not delusional.

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

Oh really, so when you'll find her faults, you'll stop loving her? You know what, that's not love! You love the idea you have of Girl2, not the girl herself. You're being pretty unfair to consider her as perfect. Because she's not perfect, nobody is. So she can only fail in your eyes, sooner or later. The day you'll find out that she's not perfect, you'll find Girl3, who will be seemingly perfect, and lose interest in Girl2 just like you lost interest in imperfect Girl1.

Boy, loving someone means loving them all inclusive, with their faults, their weaknesses, with the communication problems and everything. Not even despite of all that, but WITH all that.

IMO Girl1 and Girl2 both deserve someone who really loves them, which obviously is not the case with you. So my advice is: leave both of them and try to stop judging them.

I'm not that shallow. It's self destructive for me, I miss her so much all the time. I think you're underestimating my feelings for her, it's not just attraction to her looks or personality. She has faults, everyone does, but I love them and to me they're part of her perfection. This is a girl who I grew up with and deeply care about. I'm just looking for something, anything, that can make the fact that we can't be together more bearable. If we become closer it will be hard on me as well as her, but we can't help it.

And my girlfriend... Of course I love her, it hurts me to see her suffering because I am so incompetent at conveying my love for her that she feels insufficient. I just broke up with her, I don't know if we'll stay apart, but I feel terrible, I'm even shaking. I've never caused so much emotional pain to someone in my life, I had to bear listening to her cry harder than I've ever heard her cry because of some crazy but seemingly logical decision I had made in my head. It's hard to keep my thoughts level when something like that is going on, I just wanted to say "no, no, I'm not leaving you," and comfort her, but in the long run this was the best thing for me to do. She is a wonderful person who I love very much, and I wasn't making her happy, what else was I supposed to do? Leaving her doesn't change the fact that I love her. She is perfect, just not the right partner for me.

[Lola]

Originally Posted by Terumoto

I might also add that I'm pretty inexperienced at life, I'm young, and my current girlfriend is my first ever girlfriend.

Well, then, I'm happy to lend you the benefit of my graduate degree in life experience and an older woman's perspective. Jim's right sweetie, you're about to get a lot more experience. But he also said you have a tough choice ahead of you - stay or go - and with that I disagree. You've already made your choice. You're just not taking the action required to back up your decision.

Life lesson #1 - Girl B is irrelevant to this discussion. Your first order of business is to cut things off with your *girlfriend* and get out of her life ASAP so she can get on, grow up, heal, and find someone who loves her. Period. Clean up that mess before anything else.

2nd life lesson - this will serve you well in your old age - emotional affairs are still, in fact, affairs and particularly damaging to a woman's sense of safety and well-being in a relationship. You left your girlfriend the moment you took up emotionally with the other woman. Maintaining a superficial, physical presence prevents your *girlfriend* from moving on.

Your *girlfriend* deserves to be loved and appreciated by someone who puts her in first place. Someone who is really present for her. Someone who does not arbitrarily, arrogantly, and condescendingly decide that he knows what's best for her. Someone who does not describe her as such:

Originally Posted by Terumoto

she doesn't understand me
she doesn't really get what I'm trying to say
She is a good girlfriend
honest, loving, caring and helpful
She does a lot for me

hostile, even obnoxious
short temper
drama queen
I just have to deal with it
I don't feel a "connection" with her,
it feels shallow.

Yes, there will be tears and you will likely feel bad for *hurting* her. She'll live. Thrive even.

[Terumoto]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

We'll have to agree to disagree there, as I really think you are responsible for that. You want to get your message across properly. If you don't care about that, you might as well start conversing with the walls.

I think it might be something in between... The talker is partly responsible and the listener is partly responsible.

I don't know too much about internet hardware, but consider modems. They have a message they need to send, and it's their responsibility to make sure their message is sent using a protocol that the receiver can understand.

If the message successfully reaches another modem, it can be demodulated and understood. If, because of some sort of mix up, the message happens to get sent to a telephone, the telephone won't be able to understand the original message. It tries to make sense of it, but if someone picks up the telephone and listens, it's just a jumble of odd sounds.

So, in the world, modems are efficient at communicating with modems, telephones are efficient communicating with telephones, radios are efficient at communicating with radio transmitters.

Communication is possible cross platform, you can make phone calls over the internet, access the internet on mobile phones, etc., but it's most efficient between devices of the same type.

Maybe different kinds of people just naturally communicate better, and less effort is required on the part of the communicator to make his or her message understandable. Whether the listener is compatible with the communicator is luck... I don't know though, I'm just thinking out loud.. -_-

[Terumoto]

Originally Posted by Lola

Your *girlfriend* deserves to be loved and appreciated by someone who puts her in first place. Someone who is really present for her. Someone who does not arbitrarily, arrogantly, and condescendingly decide that he knows what's best for her.

That's exactly why I was having doubts about staying with her.

[Lola]

Break-ups are no fun for either party, Terumoto, but ultimately when we realize we don't love a person, we also have to realize we're not doing them any favors by staying around.

Good luck to both of you.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by Terumoto

If the message successfully reaches another modem, it can be demodulated and understood. If, because of some sort of mix up, the message happens to get sent to a telephone, the telephone won't be able to understand the original message. It tries to make sense of it, but if someone picks up the telephone and listens, it's just a jumble of odd sounds.

Your analogy is flawed. Modems and telephones can exchange information if both ends understand the same protocol, just as humans can exchange information if they speak the same language. Speaking the same language is a shared responsibility. I learned English so I could talk to people who do not speak Dutch.

However, we were talking about human communication, which is much more complicated than the exchange of bitstreams that our electronic devices are capable of. To a machine "see you later" is always the same information, but in human exchange it can have many meanings, depending on how it is delivered. I can say "see you later" to my girlfriend in a way that implies we'll have a fun night ahead of us or I can give it a cold and bitter "I really hope we never cross paths again" undertone when delivering it to someone who ruffled my feathers in the wrong way.

So, there is the information ("see you later") and there is the intended message ("to make love tonight" or "stay out of my life!"). It is, in my opinion, the responsibility of the sender to ensure that the intended message comes across with the information.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

Your analogy is flawed. Modems and telephones can exchange information if both ends understand the same protocol, just as humans can exchange information if they speak the same language. Speaking the same language is a shared responsibility. I learned English so I could talk to people who do not speak Dutch.

However, we were talking about human communication, which is much more complicated than the exchange of bitstreams that our electronic devices are capable of. To a machine "see you later" is always the same information, but in human exchange it can have many meanings, depending on how it is delivered. I can say "see you later" to my girlfriend in a way that implies we'll have a fun night ahead of us or I can give it a cold and bitter "I really hope we never cross paths again" undertone when delivering it to someone who ruffled my feathers in the wrong way.

So, there is the information ("see you later") and there is the intended message ("to make love tonight" or "stay out of my life!"). It is, in my opinion, the responsibility of the sender to ensure that the intended message comes across with the information.

I agree that a sender has to verify the message has been understood if you want to communicate. Most of the time that verification is easy but under stress people have to make extra sure. Like being on noisey radios, people repeat back what they heard. Or like technology communication with checksums or error retransmits. But that's just to make sure the message content made it, then there's the level of what it means that often needs clarifying for real communication. It's reflective listening that works - not just parrot back the words but say how you understood the message back.

Woops - this tread has wandered.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Woops - this tread has wandered.

I don't think so. I think that communication and responsibility are the heart of this issue.

Terumoto, you have been utterly absent, withholding, dishonest, and lacking in integrity regarding Girl #1, and you rationalize that by telling yourself it's be cause she doesn't understand you. Well, it's impossible for her to understand you, because you haven't been straight with her. It's not her; it's you.

From reading what you've written, I think one of the reasons you haven't been straight with Girl #1 is that you haven't approached yourself with integrity, first and foremost. You think you've been honest, but you've only been partially honest, and that's the same thing as not being honest at all. You must honor what you know is so for yourself, or you dishonor your relationships.

I don't think you want to leave Girl #1 and take your messy approach with you into a relationship with Girl #2, do you? If you don't learn how to be completely straight with yourself, and have integrity, you will just end up creating a similar situation with Girls #2, #3, #4, etc.

This would be a great time for you to come clean with yourself and do what you know is right. Come clean with #2, too. Then you'll be free and unencumbered by fear and doubt, and ready to generate a loving, mutually beneficial relationship with whichever women you choose.

Good luck, and lots of courage to you, Terumoto. (Doesn't that mean "earthquake"? edit: ah, no, it's terramoto that means earthquake. Either way, it's an appropriate name for you!)

[Brutha]

I think it might be something in between... The talker is partly responsible and the listener is partly responsible.

Sharing responsibilty is a bit like sharing happiness.
If person A share a bit of his happiness with person B, person A usually doesn't have less happiness because he shared his happiness.
Responsibilty works the same way.

[Terumoto]

Jim: I think we're talking about different things. I agree it is the responsibility of the sender to make sure the tone and words and stuff convey the right message in a way the receiver can understand. I'm referring to something other than that, maybe some people can just connect better than others. It's not about the words, things can even be conveyed without words. What Bitsy said is a good example.

Originally Posted by Angela

I don't think so. I think that communication and responsibility are the heart of this issue.

Terumoto, you have been utterly absent, withholding, dishonest, and lacking in integrity regarding Girl #1, and you rationalize that by telling yourself it's be cause she doesn't understand you. Well, it's impossible for her to understand you, because you haven't been straight with her. It's not her; it's you.

From reading what you've written, I think one of the reasons you haven't been straight with Girl #1 is that you haven't approached yourself with integrity, first and foremost. You think you've been honest, but you've only been partially honest, and that's the same thing as not being honest at all. You must honor what you know is so for yourself, or you dishonor your relationships.

I don't think you want to leave Girl #1 and take your messy approach with you into a relationship with Girl #2, do you? If you don't learn how to be completely straight with yourself, and have integrity, you will just end up creating a similar situation with Girls #2, #3, #4, etc.

This would be a great time for you to come clean with yourself and do what you know is right. Come clean with #2, too. Then you'll be free and unencumbered by fear and doubt, and ready to generate a loving, mutually beneficial relationship with whichever women you choose.

Good luck, and lots of courage to you, Terumoto. (Doesn't that mean "earthquake"? edit: ah, no, it's terramoto that means earthquake. Either way, it's an appropriate name for you!)

I wish I could be honest with myself... The relationship ended up that way because we started dating at 13 years old. Children. I think in the first two years, she fell deeper and deeper in love with "me," and I her. Then I changed, drastically, and I no longer knew who I was. So she was loving "me," I didn't even know what that was, so I thought, how could she? I didn't want to just tell her though, "you don't know what you love." Then I saw that me loving her was the same, I don't know what "her" is, so I'm basically loving something I imagined up. I was loving the image in my head created by my experiences with her.

At that point, I was dissatisfied with love, but I didn't want to give up hope. I found a more real love, an unconditional, compassionate love, kind of like the love a mother might have for her child. Except that kind of love was weird, because you could have it for everything, I didn't just have it for my girlfriend. How could I tell her "I love everything else in the world in the same way I love you." She would take that as "I don't love you." The only thing that made my feelings for my gf stand out were physical and mental attraction.

With those feelings for her, I was happy. My love for her didn't depend on what she did or didn't do, or things she did or didn't have. Then she started to not feel loved, she said she wanted to change so I would love her more, and she tried doing all these things so that I would love her more. It didn't work because my love for her didn't depend on her actions, but that wasn't the kind of love she needed.

I couldn't share myself with her, what self was there to share? It upset her that she could make a list of why she loved me, but when she asked me all I could come up with was "because I just do, because you are great." Another thing that caused problems was that she didn't make me happy. I was happy, but it wasn't due to her or her actions, because I found that it was dangerous to put my happiness in the hands of anyone but myself. She, on the other hand, would say that it was me that made her happy.

I approached her about it and told her that she should find her own happiness because depending on me for happiness was bound to cause her suffering. She thought I was crazy. When I told her that it wasn't her that caused my happiness, she was upset. "I think it would be better if two already happy people were in a relationship sharing their happiness with each other, rather than two people being in a relationship depending on each other for happiness." She didn't see where I was coming from.

I was too busy trying to make our relationship compatible with my feelings, trying to make it perfect... All she wanted to do was have a normal relationship like her friends did. So I shutup. I just went with however things went. Down the track, I feel misunderstood, which is my fault, but it's not like I didn't try. Then later on, she starts feeling unhappy, I start feeling unsure about staying with her, etc.

I hope I don't make the same mistake with Girl #2 (who's name happens to be Angela as well, lol), but I think it will be OK. I feel as though she has a similar outlook on things as I do.

[Angela]

You're in a tough spot, but you will do the right thing, and it will work out well for you.

Love,
Angela

[Bitsy]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

We'll have to agree to disagree there, as I really think you are responsible for that. You want to get your message across properly. If you don't care about that, you might as well start conversing with the walls.

Indeed, conversing with a person who can't or won't understand you, or who won't listen, is even more frustrating than talking to walls.

Ok, at the end of the day, yes, the responsibility of communication is on the communicator, only because it is the communicator who is wanting to communicate something. Most importantly, however, it is the responsibility of the communicator to select who he/she communicates with, so as to avoid the feeling of banging his or her head up against a wall until it is bloody and or wanting to pull out his/her hair, or wanting to burst out into tears of frustration.

What you write also presumes that all people who share a common language always understand each other. It goes without saying that that is not the case.

I.e. I guarantee you that if you decide you want to communicate something to me about computer programming (or calculus, or...), in my language, English, you can talk about 0's and 1's until you're blue in the face, but I am never going to understand what you are trying to communicate, because I don't know squat about computer programming. You're going to have to start from "computer programming 101" page 1 of the text book and then be able to answer all of my seemingly (to you) retarded questions and deal with all of my frustration at not being able to understand it. You will have to have the patience of an angel and I will have to refrain from thinking I'm too stupid...

This principle can apply to anything you want to communicate in my opinion. And when we are talking about emotional affairs and psychology, relationships, most people don't even know the why and workings of what they communicate to be able to explain them to someone who is so extremely different that they just don't understand, and why should they have to? You don't want to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't understand you even on a fundamental level.

I think that the communication I experienced with the person I mentioned, and perhaps the communication Terumoto experiences with the second girl (as I have understood it), it goes deeper than reading body language or voice tone over the phone. I think people with more similar minds, desires and psychological/emotional make-up etc. understand one another better simply by nature, like two people who understand poetry and love to write and share poetry, or, correspondingly, two people who understand computer programming and calculus.

You have also presupposed that the person you are communicating with actually wants to listen to you or understand.

[Terumoto]

I got reminded of this story so I looked it up...

There was once a turtle who lived in a lake with a group of fish. One day the turtle went for a walk on dry land. He was away from the lake for a few weeks. When he returned he met some of the fish. The fish asked him, "Mister turtle, hello! How are you? We have not seen you for a few weeks. Where have you been? The turtle said, "I was up on the land, I have been spending some time on dry land." The fish were a little puzzled and they said, "Up on dry land? What are you talking about? What is this dry land? Is it wet?" The turtle said "No, it is not," "Is it cool and refreshing?" "No it is not", "Does it have waves and ripples?" "No, it does not have waves and ripples." "Can you swim in it?" "No you can't" So the fish said, "it is not wet, it is not cool there are no waves, you cant swim in it. So this dry land of yours must be completely non-existent, just an imaginary thing, nothing real at all." The turtle said that "Well may be so" and he left the fish and went for another walk on dry land.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by Bitsy

I.e. I guarantee you that if you decide you want to communicate something to me about computer programming (or calculus, or...), in my language, English, you can talk about 0's and 1's until you're blue in the face, but I am never going to understand what you are trying to communicate

Well, I managed to explain computer programming (which is my day job) to my grandmother who can hardly grasp the concept of what a computer is. So I am actually confident that I can explain it to you quite clearly if I need to.

You have also presupposed that the person you are communicating with actually wants to listen to you or understand.

I didn't actually suppose that. If I need to communicate with someone who doesn't want to hear a word I say, I'm still fully responsible for getting the message across. If someone doesn't understand me, I'll need to find the words to make her understand (specially if she is my girlfriend).

Of course, my responsibility ends when the other person decides to back out of the conversation entirely. If you choose to never visit this forum again, I obviously have no hope of ever getting any point across to you after that, since you'll have cut me out of the one channel of communication that we both share.

[joanmhe]

Hi Terumoto,
I sympathize with you. You are no longer in love with your girlfriend, (though you still care about her deeply, so you are both better off now that you have ended the relationship. I wish you luck with the second girl. However, comparing your love of girl 1 to that of a mother for a child - you are way off on that one, speaking as a mother.
I also think that the communication that you find with the second girl is based on an emotional connection that you have made. That connection is wonderful, but not a guarantee of happiness in a relationship. When we were getting along I could communicate on a deep level with my ex-husband, but that didn't mean he wasn't a totally impossible person to live with. It took me a few years in marriage counseling to realize that he could not really see me as a separate person.
Again, good luck,
Joan

[m18pak]

Terumoto, the more I read your posts, the more I feel an strong sense of affinity for you. I feel like we are quite similar in some ways, and as such I will give you advice based on my own experience in life.

Terumoto, I think the root problem is quite simply that you two reside in different worlds. You two are different.

You are not normal, and unfortunately for the both of you your gf is, judging from your description, a nice, normal girl with a good heart.

You are highly intelligent: I can tell. I can feel it. You see things that others don't see. You know things that others are oblivious to.

You are also conscious, and by conscious I mean aware of the transience of self-image and the infinite possibility of life. Your mind is free. Like it or not, you have taken the red pill, and now reside in a world where there are no rules or borders or controls.

I know that all this simply sounds like vain arrogance, like hubris at its worst, but it's not. I felt that way for a long time, until I realised that I wouldn't be sorry for what I was anymore. I wouldn't feel guilty anymore for what I could be. And I would no longer doubt the sanity of my thoughts, because just because I am a minority of one doesn't mean I'm mad.

People are not all equal, nor can they be; to think of all people as the same is but fanciful wishing.

I am guessing that you must feel alone, because the only good thing about mediocrity is that you are in plenty of company. You said that you have never felt like anyone truly understood you, and I know exactly what you mean. I know what it's like to feel as though all of your relationships with people, past and present, were nothing more than acts in a play, times when you put on your mask and recited the lines given you so that the play would go on like it was supposed to, because the ending that you saw for the play, you knew was not possible.

I know what it's like to only have one-sided interactions, and nothing else. I know what it's like to be scared of the ideas that you have and to hold them back and hide them to yourself, never telling anyone, because even you don't understand how it could be possible to think such things.

You are like me, so I'm guessing that the same malady that I call my own plagues you also. I don't know how much you are like me though, and so all of the conditions I have described may be present in your life to a lesser extent, but I'm betting that the face of the monster remains the same.

I feel like me and my girlfriend are just very different people.

You are. It is undoubtedly true.

I don't think so. I think that communication and responsibility are the heart of this issue.

Terumoto, you have been utterly absent, withholding, dishonest, and lacking in integrity regarding Girl #1, and you rationalize that by telling yourself it's because she doesn't understand you. Well, it's impossible for her to understand you, because you haven't been straight with her. It's not her; it's you.

She is right, and wrong. You have most certainly not been at all "utterly absent, withholding, dishonest, and lacking in integrity", but it is you, or rather, what you are.

You and your girlfriend are metals forged of a different ore.

I got reminded of this story so I looked it up...

There was once a turtle who lived in a lake with a group of fish. One day the turtle went for a walk on dry land. He was away from the lake for a few weeks. When he returned he met some of the fish. The fish asked him, "Mister turtle, hello! How are you? We have not seen you for a few weeks. Where have you been? The turtle said, "I was up on the land, I have been spending some time on dry land." The fish were a little puzzled and they said, "Up on dry land? What are you talking about? What is this dry land? Is it wet?" The turtle said "No, it is not," "Is it cool and refreshing?" "No it is not", "Does it have waves and ripples?" "No, it does not have waves and ripples." "Can you swim in it?" "No you can't" So the fish said, "it is not wet, it is not cool there are no waves, you cant swim in it. So this dry land of yours must be completely non-existent, just an imaginary thing, nothing real at all." The turtle said that "Well maybe so" and he left the fish and went for another walk on dry land.

This story is more appropriate than you know.

Your *girlfriend* deserves to be loved and appreciated by someone who puts her in first place. Someone who is really present for her. Someone who does not arbitrarily, arrogantly, and condescendingly decide that he knows what's best for her. Someone who does not describe her as such:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terumoto
she doesn't understand me
she doesn't really get what I'm trying to say
She is a good girlfriend
honest, loving, caring and helpful
She does a lot for me

hostile, even obnoxious
short temper
drama queen
I just have to deal with it
I don't feel a "connection" with her,
it feels shallow.

I understand how this might seem to be the case to those who don't understand, but you must realise that there is a difference between judging and evaluating.

Some people, when they perceive an other greater than themselves, naturally fall into feelings of anger and inferiority.

The truth can be hard to bear, and what I have realised is that most people don't actually want to hear the truth about themselves, and that just because I myself am anxious to learn of my own shortcomings so that I may improve upon them does not mean that others are the same.

Anyway, my point is there is something about this girl that captivates me. I love that without words or anything, there's this thing that we both understand. Most important of all to me is her eyes. According to almost everyone who meets me, I am a mysterious person. Even my girlfriend, who knows more about me than anyone else does, says that I am a mystery to her and she can never tell what I'm really thinking. Girl 2, on the other hand, she has eyes that completely and utterly pierce straight through me. When she looks at me, it's as if she just "knows," and that's that. Likewise, I can tell her mood by just looking at her.

Even if I'm talking to her over an instant messenger, that kind of thing is still there. I try to convey something that can't be conveyed through words, with words, and she sees the words and gets the original thing I was trying to convey. With my girlfriend, I try to convey something that can't be conveyed with words, and she just sees the words and tries to figure out a new meaning. That's what I mean by the lack of understanding. My girlfriend always asks me to be more open about my feelings, she wants me to explain so she can understand, but I really can't. I wish I could, but it's as if words are too inadequate to convey what I need to.

I am curious: how are you so certain that girl 2 "gets" you?

My feelings for girl 2 are not infatuation, they've been constant for almost all of the time I've known her.

If your feelings for her have been constant the whole time you've known her, why have they only become a problem now?

I'm not that shallow. It's self destructive for me, I miss her so much all the time. I think you're underestimating my feelings for her, it's not just attraction to her looks or personality. She has faults, everyone does, but I love them and to me they're part of her perfection. This is a girl who I grew up with and deeply care about. I'm just looking for something, anything, that can make the fact that we can't be together more bearable. If we become closer it will be hard on me as well as her, but we can't help it.

I'm not so sure that you miss her. I'm worried about the possibility that you may actually be missing the feeling of a deep connection with another person.

I decided to be honest, and admit to myself that I am in love with girl 2, because I really am totally in love with her.

How do you know this? What sort of evidence do you have to back such a bold claim?

I'll be honest with you. If you get involved with girl 2, I don't think it will work out. She is a friend to you. She is your dearest friend. You don't love her, you love how you feel a connection with her. You love how you can just talk with her and it feels right. You love how you feel like you can tell and be the truth of who you really are to her.

I've really been trying to stop feeling this way about girl 2, for the reasons you mentioned. The only way I can find faults in her is to get to know her better, that was my original logic, but it seems like the more I get to know her the more I end up loving her. Maybe I'll soon find something.

Of course, the closer you get to her, the more you'll like her. You have very deep rapport with her. You two click. You have so much comfort with her that you feel like you can talk aloud in front of her.

I don't know, man. I don't think that you see the truth of what your relationship with girl 2 really is. Because to be honest, I think that you like her simply because she listens to you talk.

Unfortunately, Terumoto, it is an undeniable fact that people like us are inwardly focussed to the point where we could be adequately described as being narcissistic. Because what we have to say to ourselves might actually just be more interesting than anything anyone else has to say to us. I sometimes think that if I really wanted to have an intellectually stimulating conversation my best bet would be to talk to myself. Actually I lie: I think that all the time.

[m18pak]

Terumoto, you should realise that for you and me nothing will be ever as interesting or meaningful as what we feel and think. To all practical purposes we should think of ourselves as being extremely narcissistic.

I think I have felt what you now feel for girl 2. With both times, I ended up being disappointed when I realised that I had mistaken glitter for gold. With both times, it was with someone who was highly intelligent and was willing to tolerate my bizarreness in order to try and make sense of what I was trying to tell them. And both times, I felt a sort of gratitude for them that bordered on neediness.

Those two listened to me. They nodded their heads and said that I was right. They agreed. And I loved them for it. Why? Because I was just so hungry for any sort of meaningful connection, any sort of appreciation for who I really was. I was desperate for any affirmation of what I believed, because I knew that what I believed was so fantastic as to border on being self-delusion.

This is what you feel: that nobody understands you, and so nobody can care about you, because they don't really know you, and so you are all alone and unloved. So when you find someone who is willing to try and understand you, you begin to idealize them, because that is just so rare for you.

Me and you, Terumoto, are very self-absorbed. Seriously. Our idea of the perfect partner would probably be someone who would be willing to listen to us talk for hours on end while nodding every once in a while to encourage us to go on. A woman who was happy to be a character in the story of our lives.

This can be a good thing, or it can be a bad thing. Ayn Rand calls it the virtue of selfishness, but I don't think she really understood what she was talking about. It is not true selfishness: it's not that we don't care about people, but that we have trouble remembering that other people are actually real.

Girl 1 loves you. She really does. She needs you. What she feels for you is true love, so you shouldn't be put off by the fact that she depends on you for her happiness. That's just how women are.

Then I changed, drastically, and I no longer knew who I was. So she was loving "me," I didn't even know what that was, so I thought, how could she? I didn't want to just tell her though, "you don't know what you love." Then I saw that me loving her was the same, I don't know what "her" is, so I'm basically loving something I imagined up. I was loving the image in my head created by my experiences with her.

You need to realise something, and it's very important. Relationships are always just in your head. You will always be loving an image. You will always be loving the person that you think your partner is. Always.

Dude, it's not possible to "love someone as they really are", because it's impossible to know someone as they really are. You can't read minds. You will never know for sure what someone else is thinking. Not even if you're married for forty years. You can't know for certain what you wife is thinking on your wedding day, and you still won't know at the end of your life together, when you are on your deathbed and she sits by your side, holding your hand.

Of course you gf can't know exactly who you are. How can she? Think about it. It's not possible. Girl 2 won't either. No-one ever will.

You are always completely alone, whether you realise it or not.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THIS: Your girlfriend loves you, but you can’t accept her love because you feel like it is a gift given in error, a love misplaced, an affection meant for someone else. Like you are not the person that she thinks you are and so her love has no meaning or value or purpose.

In other words, you feel like an imposter around her, like in some strange and indescribable way every minute that you spend with her is, in fact, a lie.

This is what narcissism is. You feel this way because she is not acknowledging your....purpose. (I'm not sure if that's the right word for it, but hopefully you get what I mean.) She listens to the words you say, but she doesn't hear them, and you find that nigh intolerable. You need someone to acknowledge YOU, and she's not doing that. You is not seeing you as you are, and you need someone to see you as you are.

Honestly, I don't know what you should do. All I know is that you need to be with someone who is like you, who has the same sort of awareness of life that you do, and who understands that reality is infinite. I mean, a part of me wants to tell you to go to her, look her in the eyes, and tell her all that you know to try and make her see what you see, but that would just be naively sentimental and completely unrealistic, wouldn't it?

You need someone who's taken the red pill as well.

But people won't change unless they really want to.

Would she be willing to change for you?

Would you even want her to try? Or does the idea seem slightly unwholesome somehow?

I don't know, man. You and me are in the same boat, I feel. Maybe what you and your girlfriend had is as good as it gets for guys like us.

I just... I don't feel that you should expect the perfect relationship, you know? I don't think you should expect her to understand you perfectly, because it's pretty much impossible to do that for people like us because we're so inwardly focussed.

You have to ask yourself if the fact that she doesn't understand you is really all that you're making it out to be, because it seems that she is willing to try her hardest to try and understand you, and maybe that's enough, right?

PS. Just out of curiosity, is this the same girl that cheated on you?

[Terumoto]

Originally Posted by m18pak

Terumoto, the more I read your posts, the more I feel an strong sense of affinity for you. I feel like we are quite similar in some ways, and as such I will give you advice based on my own experience in life.

Terumoto, I think the root problem is quite simply that you two reside in different worlds. You two are different.

You are not normal, and unfortunately for the both of you your gf is, judging from your description, a nice, normal girl with a good heart.

You are highly intelligent: I can tell. I can feel it. You see things that others don't see. You know things that others are oblivious to.

You are also conscious, and by conscious I mean aware of the transience of self-image and the infinite possibility of life. Your mind is free. Like it or not, you have taken the red pill, and now reside in a world where there are no rules or borders or controls.

I know that all this simply sounds like vain arrogance, like hubris at its worst, but it's not. I felt that way for a long time, until I realised that I wouldn't be sorry for what I was anymore. I wouldn't feel guilty anymore for what I could be. And I would no longer doubt the sanity of my thoughts, because just because I am a minority of one doesn't mean I'm mad.

People are not all equal, nor can they be; to think of all people as the same is but fanciful wishing.

I am guessing that you must feel alone, because the only good thing about mediocrity is that you are in plenty of company. You said that you have never felt like anyone truly understood you, and I know exactly what you mean. I know what it's like to feel as though all of your relationships with people, past and present, were nothing more than acts in a play, times when you put on your mask and recited the lines given you so that the play would go on like it was supposed to, because the ending that you saw for the play, you knew was not possible.

I know what it's like to only have one-sided interactions, and nothing else. I know what it's like to be scared of the ideas that you have and to hold them back and hide them to yourself, never telling anyone, because even you don't understand how it could be possible to think such things.

You are like me, so I'm guessing that the same malady that I call my own plagues you also. I don't know how much you are like me though, and so all of the conditions I have described may be present in your life to a lesser extent, but I'm betting that the face of the monster remains the same.

I agree, this resonates with me. Particularly the part about putting on a mask and acting, which is exactly what I felt I needed to do with my girlfriend. Despite my self being an illusion and a cause for problems, I needed to use it because it was what she loved.

I am curious: how are you so certain that girl 2 "gets" you?

If your feelings for her have been constant the whole time you've known her, why have they only become a problem now?

I'm not so sure that you miss her. I'm worried about the possibility that you may actually be missing the feeling of a deep connection with another person.

I don't know, man. I don't think that you see the truth of what your relationship with girl 2 really is. Because to be honest, I think that you like her simply because she listens to you talk.

How do you know this? What sort of evidence do you have to back such a bold claim?

I don't think it's because she listens to me talk, I've never spoken to her about what you and I might consider stimulating subject matter for a conversation. I'll tell you the amazing thing about her. Her eyes are like blades that cut through the mask; she sees the mask, but she sees through it. It doesn't just work one-way either, I can also see through her mask. When we were younger I think we both felt exposed, even slightly intimidated by each other, but I kept finding myself wanting to be in her company and she felt the same way.

I miss being with somebody who sees the truth. I would feel more fulfilled sitting across the room from girl 2 than I would having a deep conversation with girl 1. I don't even need to say anything to her. I don't need her to say anything to me.

I'll be honest with you. If you get involved with girl 2, I don't think it will work out. She is a friend to you. She is your dearest friend. You don't love her, you love how you feel a connection with her. You love how you can just talk with her and it feels right. You love how you feel like you can tell and be the truth of who you really are to her.

On the contrary, I think she is one of the few people who can understand and feel my love. I don't love masks, I love existences/true selves/true natures. My girlfriend felt unloved because she needed me to love her self, her personality. When she wasn't feeling my love for that, she tried to improve herself. Obviously, it didn't work and I'm sure you know why. Girl 2 doesn't care for masks, she feels my love for what is beyond her mask. Don't ask me how I know, I can just accurately tell.

I think I have felt what you now feel for girl 2. With both times, I ended up being disappointed when I realised that I had mistaken glitter for gold. With both times, it was with someone who was highly intelligent and was willing to tolerate my bizarreness in order to try and make sense of what I was trying to tell them. And both times, I felt a sort of gratitude for them that bordered on neediness.

Those two listened to me. They nodded their heads and said that I was right. They agreed. And I loved them for it. Why? Because I was just so hungry for any sort of meaningful connection, any sort of appreciation for who I really was. I was desperate for any affirmation of what I believed, because I knew that what I believed was so fantastic as to border on being self-delusion.

This is what you feel: that nobody understands you, and so nobody can care about you, because they don't really know you, and so you are all alone and unloved. So when you find someone who is willing to try and understand you, you begin to idealize them, because that is just so rare for you.

Me and you, Terumoto, are very self-absorbed. Seriously. Our idea of the perfect partner would probably be someone who would be willing to listen to us talk for hours on end while nodding every once in a while to encourage us to go on. A woman who was happy to be a character in the story of our lives.

Hmm... I think it's different to what you are describing. Three times in my life I have come across people whose love and understanding I have felt. I am not a cluster of scattered philosophical ideas, nor am I my views on life, the universe and existence. Those, I would consider part of my mask, although it's those parts that expose the fragility and uselessness of the mask. Maybe they can be symbolized by cracks in the mask, or something like that.

While I love discussing those things, they aren't what is beyond my mask. The first person of the three is my closest friend. He is in a similar state of mind to you and me, so he can see past the crap, and I feel genuine love and understanding from him. The second person was a Buddhist monk who had some business at my university once. When I spoke to him, I felt that he really understood my suffering, saw me for what I really was, and genuinely loved and wanted to help me in any way possible. The third is girl 2.

Girl 1 loves you. She really does. She needs you. What she feels for you is true love, so you shouldn't be put off by the fact that she depends on you for her happiness. That's just how women are.

Dude, it's not possible to "love someone as they really are", because it's impossible to know someone as they really are. You can't read minds. You will never know for sure what someone else is thinking. Not even if you're married for forty years. You can't know for certain what you wife is thinking on your wedding day, and you still won't know at the end of your life together, when you are on your deathbed and she sits by your side, holding your hand.

Of course you gf can't know exactly who you are. How can she? Think about it. It's not possible. Girl 2 won't either. No-one ever will.

You are always completely alone, whether you realise it or not.

I don't think girl 1 really loves me. I know what she loves about me, and it isn't me. I felt like it would have been better if she loved somebody who identified themselves with themselves, rather than someone who thought their self was something different to what they really were. In regard to most people's idea of love, her love was true, but in reality, it didn't feel like it was.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THIS: Your girlfriend loves you, but you can’t accept her love because you feel like it is a gift given in error, a love misplaced, an affection meant for someone else. Like you are not the person that she thinks you are and so her love has no meaning or value or purpose.

In other words, you feel like an imposter around her, like in some strange and indescribable way every minute that you spend with her is, in fact, a lie.

That's exactly right.

[Terumoto]

(post was longer than the character limit so I had to split it in two)

Honestly, I don't know what you should do. All I know is that you need to be with someone who is like you, who has the same sort of awareness of life that you do, and who understands that reality is infinite. I mean, a part of me wants to tell you to go to her, look her in the eyes, and tell her all that you know to try and make her see what you see, but that would just be naively sentimental and completely unrealistic, wouldn't it?

You need someone who's taken the red pill as well.

But people won't change unless they really want to.

Would she be willing to change for you?

Would you even want her to try? Or does the idea seem slightly unwholesome somehow?

I don't know, man. You and me are in the same boat, I feel. Maybe what you and your girlfriend had is as good as it gets for guys like us.

I just... I don't feel that you should expect the perfect relationship, you know? I don't think you should expect her to understand you perfectly, because it's pretty much impossible to do that for people like us because we're so inwardly focussed.

You have to ask yourself if the fact that she doesn't understand you is really all that you're making it out to be, because it seems that she is willing to try her hardest to try and understand you, and maybe that's enough, right?

PS. Just out of curiosity, is this the same girl that cheated on you?

That's the thing, she hasn't taken the red pill and as far as I can tell, she doesn't want to. Her attempts at trying to understand feel forced, I want her to do it for herself, not for me. I feel like a girlfriend should be a partner in this search for meaning and truth. I don't want to have to pull her along by the arm when she doesn't really want to be exploring such things. I feel like girl 2 would make a good girlfriend, because she is as curious and inquisitive as I am and we have an intuitive bond which will help us stop each other from becoming lost. I think that's the only thing I want in a girlfriend. There have been times where I was feeling down or depressed because I was exploring a particular hell, and then I found it hard to return to a positive state of mind. Just talking to girl 2 about absolutely nothing pulled me out of it, because she reminded me of what I was by being what she was. It's hard to explain. Also, she happens to be physically attractive, kind hearted and compassionate, which is definitely a bonus.

And yeah, it's the same girl that cheated on me.

[m18pak]

Well, if girl 2 is really all that you're cracking her up to be, then you should go for it and never look back.

I hope everything works out for the best for you.

I don't know, dude. Maybe you're just more emotionally healthy than me or something. I'm starting to feel that if I ever met someone who "really understood my suffering, saw me for what I really was, and genuinely loved and wanted to help me in any way possible", then I would run for the hills screaming.

PS. I know this is kind of a personal question, but if your girlfriend loved you so much then why did she cheat on you?

[Terumoto]

lol, why would you run for the hills screaming?

To your question... I suppose she just made a mistake. She was drunk as well lol. Don't get the wrong idea, she is a good person with good morals who just happened to be taken advantage of.

[Michael Chui]

Terumoto, you've obviously made a decision. Have you done anything about it yet?

And a piece of general advice: stop working to find people's virtues and let them show them to you.