Lost in my life...

[MartinT]

Greetings.

At first, I apologize if this post is in the wrong place – it involves some parts that should be in “Character & Contribution” and some that fit here, but since the bigger part revolves about the social issues, I hope this isn’t very off-the-topic. Also, I am sorry for the length of the post – English is not my mother tongue and I am used to writing long texts, but I will do my best to keep it clear and structured.

Hmm, not sure how to begin… OK, some small details about me. I am 23 years old, male, white, European. I am currently finishing my BA in Political Science. I make my living by working as a freelance journalist, freelance programmer and taking various other occasional projects. Since I am a full-time student, I am more than happy with the current job/financial situation – it allows me to earn some money to finance my studies and doesn’t take much time. However, there are some things that I am not happy about at all – and I hope somebody will be able to offer a word of advice…

To begin with, I have always been quite a bright person (no boasting – hate it – but it’s a simplified expression of what people are usually saying about me). My IQ (if it means anything…) varies between 130 and 140, I can fluently speak four languages and have the basics of three more, I know a lot of things about everything (for example, I can list all the main Greek gods and goddesses or, in contrast, tell the difference between fiscal and monetary policies, or the Soviet KV and German Panther tanks, or MySQL and MSSQL), I am pretty much universal at doing anything (for example, I am currently studying political science, working in the public relations sector, posting articles in the IT magazine and making some extra money by programming websites). I have read about 500-600 books, seen almost every good film and show that has come out in the last 10 years, been to more than 12 countries, can play several instruments… However, in this picture, there is a black blank space that sometimes overshadows everything else for me. Well, some of you have probably already guessed it. The beautiful daughters of Venus, as some poets say. Or, in short, the girls and relationships with them. As in a lot of other topics here… Sorry.

Usually, in this part, the guys start to complain about their looks… I will not. I am quite a handsome guy (in a subjective view, of course), 1.92 meters (6 feet, 4 inches, if the conversion tool is right) tall, thin. So, almost no problems in this part – I am even quite happy with my appearance myself. However, it is not the appearance that matters here – it’s my character. I have always been an introverted person (this may have come from my inclination to science), a shy one, a loner, the one who speaks rarely, who prefers to write an additional term paper instead of making a 30-minute long presentation. Same happened with my relationships with girls. I have never really loved a girl (occasional crushes don’t count, I guess). I have never kissed one. I have never even held one by the hand for more than several seconds. And, obviously, I have never slept with one. I can’t say I was unpopular in school – some girls tried hard to start a relationship with me. But, due to my inexperience and introversion, I either unwarily pushed them away or didn’t even notice their attempts.

So, such was a situation when I came to university. Here, for many reasons, the problems, as I see them, grew even bigger. I didn’t go to clubs (nobody to go with – all former friends went to other cities), I didn’t party, I obviously didn’t try to date girls, so I dove into the area I knew best – studying. Now I am in the 4th course and nothing has fundamentally changed since school. I have good career opportunities, I am planning to continue my studies and get a MA degree in another country… But my personal life is absolutely bleak. I am still a lonely and shy guy, and, on top of that, I am starting to feel that soon I will really become a professional, intelligent, but cold-blooded… machine. I desperately try to change this situation – by accepting every invitation to a party (to be honest, they are quite rare), by chatting more to my colleagues, both at work and university, even by dating with some occasional girls met in the internet. We meet, we talk about this and that (mostly about work, studies etc… I don’t even know what else to talk about!), we say goodbye… and we never meet again. Sometimes I even think about talking to random girls in public places, libraries or buses – but then either my shy part gets the upper hand or the logical part of my brain shut the initiative down by telling me something like “Come on! What are going to do? If she is intelligent enough, she will make fun of you, and if she is not… what are you going to do next? Would you really want her to be your wife?”… So, I am in the closed circle – if I don’t talk to girls, I can’t get any relationship, but if I don’t have any experience, how can I make myself to talk to them in the first place? Therefore, I struggle every day with the same thought – years keep passing by and I am losing what the youth has to offer: love, fun, lightness… and a lot of other great things. If I continue down this path, in the next 20 years I will probably achieve a successful career (I am thinking about the intelligence or some other government job), be a respectable and important person… And after reaching that, one day, I will just probably blow my brains out, just out of desperation. This is not the life and not the future I would like to have.

So, coming back to the topic and shoving away the bad thoughts, I would like to ask the honorable forum members for ANY ideas on what I should do to: 1) get rid of shyness/bad effects of introversion or to reduce it significantly not to hinder my social life anymore; 2) finally get out of that shyness/no girls circle I described above. These are the big goals and I understand it may take a lot of time to change myself, but I am willing to do ANYTHING to achieve them. Should I start going to the pubs alone? Take a hypnosis therapy? Go to the psychotherapist? Continue down the current path and hope for the best? Keep struggling with dating through the internet? EFT? Anything else? I understand that the main part in all this is played by my character and it is the thing I must change first – but I have absolutely no ideas how to do it… I have been reading Steve’s articles for the last few days and found a lot of incredible thoughts there – but some words of advice from the other persons would be absolutely great.

Thank you very much for reading all of this. If you have an idea, a comment or anything else – please share, I will be eternally grateful.

Martin

[Jim11]

keep doing what you're doing to get to know some new people, and more if possible. Do some activities where you think you may meet people of interest.
Volunteering, book club, sports, pub, cafe, whatever. Just get yourself out there. Do not let ideas such as "I can't go to this pub because a friend of mine might see me there by myself and think I'm pathetic". Just go.

Start talking to strangers. Doesn't have to be women. Just get used to being conversational instead of glancing at people and then quickly shifting your attention to the floor.

Don't be too picky and/or quick to judge. If you meet some people you will meet other people through them, etc.

And most importantly... if you see someone that interests you don't let them slip away. Try and get used to asking people to do things. Male acquaintances, women... whoever. Don't expect things to fall in your lap.

Good luck, Martin. You sound exactly like me a few years ago... right down to the 1.92 m in height. I think what opened me up to new people was simply a shift in attitude, some effort, and some time.

[searcher]

Hi Martin

You've already a good start by taking some deliberate action. It is good advice from Jim11, and there is a lot of good info on this site.

However I will recommend that you first read Frogs into Princes by Bandler/Grinder.
The book is the original introduction to NLP, and NLP is a great tool for understanding how your brain works, and to use this knowledge to change yourself (and fast) - especially (in my opinion) to 'theoretically minded' persons.

Let me know if you want to know more about this :-)

[Aurora]

Hi Martin!

Here comes a cpl of thoughts that popped up for me when I was reading your thread.

Originally Posted by MartinT

I didn’t go to clubs (nobody to go with – all former friends went to other cities), I didn’t party, I obviously didn’t try to date girls, so I dove into the area I knew best – studying.

Go yourself. Really! I know its hard as hell but what's the loss? You will acutaly be more likely to meet morepeople going on your own (male and female) as well as, well - sitting home will not meeting people easier. Its a hard way to go and you will prob. feel kinda funny the first times but think of it as a challenge and - you will train yourself in social skills and independence. Fast.

Originally Posted by MartinT

Sometimes I even think about talking to random girls in public places, libraries or buses – but then either my shy part gets the upper hand or the logical part of my brain shut the initiative down by telling me something like “Come on! What are going to do? If she is intelligent enough, she will make fun of you, and if she is not… what are you going to do next? Would you really want her to be your wife?”

ok, first of all - don't think so much. just making smalltalk with people every day, all the time, will boost your confidence in meeting people and general self-esteem (cuz you clearly have an problem with that one)

second of all - Where on earth comes the "marrying" part in? Its a fact that you actually aren't gonna marry most of the people you meet in your life, but it does not make the encounters in any way less important or instructive.

Acutally - What are you gonna loose? Seriously? You're miserable as it is, so changing must make it better. Or? If they make fun of you, fine, that's not the end of the world. But it just may be the end of your world if you keep on feeling bad about yourself.

If you're out to get laid, read "the Game" by Neil Strauss, or check out some of David DeAngelos books on picking women up. They may be a bit extreme, but some of the tips in there to overcome shyness and just meeting more people are acutally great.

Finally. Be introverted, but be proud of it. Work on your shyness if it bothers you. You're a thinker and a smart person, why would you accept to listen to your bullcrap about yourself? Know what I mean?

I hope you get some inspiration or help from what I wrote. If not, well, atleast I spoke my mind

[Ilya]

I know what you are talking about. I was an introvert like you, but I wasn't as smart as you, and I didn't know I'm good looking.

You may want to see this article by david de angelo. I'm not sure about his books, but the article is good - it's called Why very intelligent men fail with women.
Seems applicable. I'm linking to a copy, can't find the original.

I've had the same problem with internal dialog - "what am I going to do next, after the first step". It was important to know all the routine. Well, I had to actually do the first steps to find out what's next. And amazingly, the next steps turned out to be quite easy.

You are smart. You probably are a good listener. Me too. I used to sit in the corner of some social occasion and listen, know about the people. Then, when appropriate I would say some well placed comments. It would switch the attention to me and make girls curious about me.
In fact, all you need is to start initial conversation with the girl, then you can on one hand tell her all about what you know - more on the traveling to 12 countries rather than MySQL, mind you. On the other hand you can listen to what she tells you. But I see you've been doing something like that and it didn't lead you anywhere.

Try to agree that you will meet again. And then call her and invite for another date. Different countries have different courting rituals. If you stick to them, everything progresses smoothly. If you stall, or mess up the steps it just ends. That's why American books on Pick Up may not work as advertised in Europe.

Do you have a friend who is good at dating? You can follow him for a while. Approach it as a scientific project - notice how he progresses from initial conversation to the next steps. Or ask him - how many dates before he attempts a first kiss, or before he invites the girl home. This can get you started.

Also, learn the etiquette. There are simple things there that were invented to make courting easier. Like walking girls back to the house, giving them a hand when stepping from a bus (and then leaving her hand in yours ). Dance! Dance is great for putting your hands where you want them to be and not being slapped.

So, practice your steps, don't plan to end up in bed on a first date. Make it a goal for later . And trust your gut. There comes a moment when a girl looks you in the eyes and you feel that it might be a good moment for a kiss, but your smart mind starts to over analyze. Don't blow it.

I hope this gives you some ideas to get started.

[MartinT]

Hello again.

Thank you very much for all the answers and ideas! I hoped to get some responses, but something like this… wow, it really proves there are some wonderful people here.

Now, some comments:

Jim11:

keep doing what you're doing to get to know some new people, and more if possible. Do some activities where you think you may meet people of interest.

Yes, I have been doing this for some time now. Starting from some “safer” places first though – library, cafes, small pubs etc. I perfectly understand that facing my fears and going straight to the club is the best solution, but I have been trying to take a step-by-step approach - some “training” in other public places should help a lot in any club situation. But the main idea remains the same – socializing, socializing, then socializing more… I hope I can gradually force myself to get out of that “safety shell” of mine.

Start talking to strangers. Doesn't have to be women. Just get used to being conversational instead of glancing at people and then quickly shifting your attention to the floor.

The weird thing is that I can maintain quite a good conversation IF it is started by another person (it’s like I am slightly shocked for the first few seconds and then I just relax and let the conversation flow). Taking that first step is the hardest thing.

Good luck, Martin. You sound exactly like me a few years ago... right down to the 1.92 m in height. I think what opened me up to new people was simply a shift in attitude, some effort, and some time.

Thanks a lot. I really hope that after several years I open this topic, read my post, smile and say to myself that last sentence of yours :-)

Searcher:
Thanks for the recommendation, I will try to get my hands on this book. I know a few things about NLP, but haven’t studied it more closely till now. If it helps to change some stupid, action-blocking attitudes that are in my head, it would probably be a bigger part of the entire task – it’s a real pain to know that your mind sometimes is your biggest enemy.

Let me know if you want to know more about this :-)

Definitely!

Aurora:
At first, thanks a lot for such an inspirational post! It really got my determination up – and I’ll do my best to keep it that way.

Go yourself. Really! I know its hard as hell but what's the loss? You will acutaly be more likely to meet morepeople going on your own (male and female) as well as, well - sitting home will not meeting people easier.

Well, it gives me a little shiver just to imagine myself sitting lonely at the club’s bar and drinking some sort of beverage, but your arguments are convincing. Ok, my goal for November – to do this. Alone or not. Sometime in the next 27 days, I will either do this (and post my impressions here, if the thread isn’t hopelessly sunken to some XX page) or I will be a pathetic loser who can’t force himself to do such a simple thing. *takes a notebook with listed goals*

If you're out to get laid, read "the Game" by Neil Strauss, or check out some of David DeAngelos books on picking women up.

No, getting laid is not my goal – the primary thing I would like for now is just a simple relationship with a girl. Even if it just means getting the 2nd date.

I hope you get some inspiration or help from what I wrote.

Not some – a lot. Thanks again!

Ilya:

You may want to see this article by david de angelo. I'm not sure about his books, but the article is good - it's called Why very intelligent men fail with women.

Well, it wouldn’t be exaggerating to say that this article gave me a good shake. I read it, stood up, made some rounds around my room, sorting everything in my head, then came back and read it two more times – everything was SO spot-on… Thanks a lot!

You probably are a good listener. Me too. I used to sit in the corner of some social occasion and listen, know about the people. Then, when appropriate I would say some well placed comments. It would switch the attention to me and make girls curious about me.

Exactly like me :-) I probably know like 10 times more about most of the people I meet than they know about me… But it also gives some sort of “mystery” aura that helps a bit in conversations – can’t deny that.

In fact, all you need is to start initial conversation with the girl, then you can on one hand tell her all about what you know - more on the traveling to 12 countries rather than MySQL, mind you. On the other hand you can listen to what she tells you. But I see you've been doing something like that and it didn't lead you anywhere.

Regarding the MySQL – hehe, even *I* know that much

Well, there may have been a lot of possible problems with my dates – starting from the wrong choice of topics (as perfectly noted by D.DeAngelo – I usually choose the study/work/travel topics, which are not that attractive for girls) and finishing with me, thinking like “ah, she wasn’t interested in me at all. No, really. Why should she? No, no, it’s not a good idea to call her again. Let’s wait for tomorrow.”. The situation is gradually improving with each date (at least from my subjective view), so it may lead somewhere one day… But I must radically change my thinking first, that’s a fact.

Do you have a friend who is good at dating?

Hmm, not sure. But it’s a really good idea, thanks.

Also, learn the etiquette. There are simple things there that were invented to make courting easier.

Oh, believe me, I know the theory :-) Implementing these things in practice is the biggest problem… But, as also noted in that article, it's social/dating SKILLS - and they can only be learned by practice, not by theory and not by thinking. I must somehow get that into my head.

Again, thank you all. Your ideas really helped me to orient my “learning path” towards the right direction!

Warmest wishes,
Martin

[lifequest]

Quick tip: I've never meet a girl that doesn't like to dance. Plus, being a girl, I know that fact is true...

Maybe you could try to take a dance class like salsa or swing or whatever you think you'd like. In a class, when you're learning to dance, you're kinda busy learning so you have less time to wonder if you're looking/acting stupid. Plus, everybody else is also learning and making mistakes, so you won't look like a fool more than anyone else. You also get to make small talk with the person you're dancing with. Also, you learn to place you're hands at the appropriate places, so you know you'll never offend a lady again (well, unless she wants to, but that a different story... ). And to be honest, for my part, I really don't care if the guy I dance with isn't that good, as long as he's making me twist and turn and I'm having a good time (and him also), that's all that counts!

If dance is really not your thing, try to find a group of interest to join (like toastmasters, the red-cross or anything really) where you can meet people and do something you like. For example, a couples years back, I was also involved in providing first aid at events through a organisation like the red-cross. It gave me the opportunity to meet a lot of people.

[uberinquisitive]

My advice: get on an online dating site. By the way, there is a definite science to putting together the right picture and profile - learn them. If you do it right, you should have a good chance asking a girl out (online). And go out on as many dates as possible.

[Ilya]

Something has caught my eye in your post:

Originally Posted by MartinT

No, getting laid is not my goal – the primary thing I would like for now is just a simple relationship with a girl. Even if it just means getting the 2nd date.

and this:

and finishing with me, thinking like “ah, she wasn’t interested in me at all. No, really. Why should she? No, no, it’s not a good idea to call her again. Let’s wait for tomorrow.”.

So, you are able to get a first date and something breaks down before the second one. And I'm afraid to say, the main problem here is you not calling back. If a girl went on a date with you once, she is clearly interested in you. Believe me, when they are not, they have a million ways to avoid the date.
So the girl is interested, you take her on a date, you have reasonably good time and... nothing. Despite your fears, the main problem is that you are being impolite. You must call even if just to thank her for her time. Otherwise you are being rude.

So not calling is really not an option. And since you must call, why not suggest another date at the same time. To make it a little be easier, try to set it up on the first date. Promise to give her some book, or an item, that is connected to the conversation. This will give you a legitimate pretext to set up a date. If she agrees to a second date - you have a relationship. Really. No one goes on two dates with a person they don't like. On the other hand if she starts to make lame excuses, then, it might be that you did something wrong on the first date. But make this conclusion if she avoids a second date for, say 3 times. One time, she can be busy, and try to work out the time that's acceptable to both of you. 2 times - strange, but stuff happens. 3 -times, she is avoiding you. Say goodbye, tell her she can call you when she feels like meeting (just in case) and move your attention to another girl.

Oh, believe me, I know the theory :-) Implementing these things in practice is the biggest problem… But, as also noted in that article, it's social/dating SKILLS - and they can only be learned by practice, not by theory and not by thinking. I must somehow get that into my head.

Well, true, but that's the part of the article, that should not be taken literally. You do both. Preparation does help. But it is useless without action.
For me, in the early days of dating, the main problem was that I didn't know the whole process. And I cut short the dates and intentionally scared the girls as soon as I entered uncharted waters. You know, it was the classic case of fearing the success. First date, and I'm already worried how am I going to propose to go to my place and what is going to happen afterwards. So I started reading a lot. I have to admit that I'm probably the only person in the world who learned to have sex from books. It is stupid, I know, but by the time I finally had a chance to use this knowledge, I've known my way around pretty and my first intimate partner never believed that it was my first time. So, sometimes it helps to be ready to go all the way and be ready to what can happen there.

Also, you seem to have a great asset in your social life. Humor. It helps a lot. You have a problem and you still can make jokes about it and not be too serious about it. That is a very good attitude to have in your situation. Keep it up.

[thesnowyeti]

Originally Posted by MartinT

I can list all the main Greek gods and goddesses or, in contrast, tell the difference between fiscal and monetary policies, or the Soviet KV and German Panther tanks, or MySQL and MSSQL), I am pretty much universal at doing anything

i understand the reason for all of this, and i can tell you're not a pretentious person, but just remember: girls appreciate humility and kindness more than any amount of accomplishments. don't let your achievements define you, let the part of your character that drove you to achieve them define you. if you could do all of those things, then you can do this. good luck, you sound like an amazing person with a lot of potential i believe you can do it.