Why Don’t Men Like Smart, Strong, Successful Women?

[Cron]

Very insightful article

What never occurs to some women is that:

They’re being evaluated on far more than their most “impressive” traits.

These traits sometimes come with a significant downside that is painful to acknowledge.

Take me, for example. I’m a reasonably bright guy. I make a fair living. I can write a decent joke. These are my good traits. But right behind my good traits are a series of bad traits. Anyone reading this blog can see that:

The flip side of being bright is being opinionated.

The flip side of being analytical is being difficult.

The flip side of being funny is being sarcastic.

The flip side of having moral clarity is being arrogant.

The flip side of being entrepreneurial is being a workaholic.

The flip side of being charismatic is being self-centered.

Again, not EVERY person who is bright is opinionated, and not EVERY person who is funny is sarcastic. But there’s enough anecdotal evidence to suggest a strong correlation. And I’m just talking about MYSELF here. And if my good qualities come with bad qualities, have you considered that yours might as well?

So when I hear a woman talk about how “direct” she is, the first thing I think is: “She’s tactless.” I wrote about this in an article for Match.com entitled “Are You Honest… Or Overboard?” Self-proclaimed “direct” people often tell their dates what they think about them even if the date didn’t ask. They often try to change partners who have no desire to be changed. When the partner pulls away because he doesn’t want to be with someone so critical, the “direct” person concludes that he couldn’t appreciate her “honesty”.

Read the rest at:
Why Don’t Men Like Smart, Strong, Successful Women?

[Mark Lapierre]

Heh. I started reading that thinking "Wait a sec, I do like smart, strong, successful women!" ...Glad I didn't let that stop me. It's good to see the woman's version of the old "why nice guys come last" type of article.

There was a bit of what he said that I didn't like, but that's ok because he's talking about men and women in general, which always means there are people like me who don't fit the norm. As pointed out in another thread. I'm perfectly happy to be chased. Having to work for a woman's affection does nothing to make me feel strong and good and noble (as one commenter said it does).

Thankfully most of the smart, strong, successful women I've met have not been difficult, despite being direct. Unfortunately most of the single ones live on the other side of the world.

[uberinquisitive]

I had an epiphany reading that article.

I always considered myself a "great catch" of a woman. But I've always had very difficult relationships. Now I see why - I'm extremely difficult.

Ugh, I need a massive attitude change. I'm always looking for a guy to treat me like a princess 24/7 - and when he doesn't, I confront him. It has never really occurred to me before, just how critical and nitpicking I am. In fact, I always describe myself as a supportive and loving person. And I am - but only if they deserve it. Which actually doesn't seem like the real definition of supportive or loving.

I'm relentless in my confrontations. Being with me is difficult and soul crushing to the guy - he can never make me happy, unless he slays dragons every minute of everyday. And even then, each dragon has to be bigger.

I've always felt entitled. I always think to myself, "I only deserve the best." And, initially, the guy agrees with me. So he gives me his best. But he has off days. Sometimes he doesn't know what I want. Other times, he has other stuff to think about. And that's when I freak out!

Thing is, having these "standards" has always worked great in other areas of my life. So, without examining them, I just applied them to relationships. What a mistake.

Thanks for the article. Now I'm almost excited to get a new boyfriend so I stop being so difficult.

[cdn2wheeler]

Originally Posted by uberinquisitive

I'm relentless in my confrontations. Being with me is difficult and soul crushing to the guy - he can never make me happy, unless he slays dragons every minute of everyday. And even then, each dragon has to be bigger.

I've always felt entitled. I always think to myself, "I only deserve the best." And, initially, the guy agrees with me. So he gives me his best. But he has off days. Sometimes he doesn't know what I want. Other times, he has other stuff to think about. And that's when I freak out!

Uh... D_____... is that you? My second wife?

[Grandiouse]

It also takes a really strong man to match up to an equally strong woman. I know that the qualities that I like about my girlfriend is that she is ambitious, independent, and supportive as well. I respect her courage and security about herself. I think a lot of times men will find this intimidating because they want someone who will cling on to them, or follow their lead.

[openeyes]

Originally Posted by uberinquisitive

Being with me is difficult and soul crushing to the guy - he can never make me happy, unless he slays dragons every minute of everyday. And even then, each dragon has to be bigger.

At this point I could never be with someone that needed me to make him/her happy. They've got to make themselves happy, then we can simply enjoy each other as a bonus. I used to be really into making other people happy, while at the same time feeling that I needed someone else to make me happy, but by my late teens I found that couldn't reliably work for me. Now I focus on my world and just invite interesting guests into it for mutual enjoyment/inspiration

[Angela]

uberinquisitive, it takes a ton of courage to look so boldly at yourself, and then to be so brutally honest with us about what you've seen. I think that is a huge step you have taken on the path to generating a relationship, and a life, that you love. I find it very inspiring. Congratulations, and lots of good wishes!

[uberinquisitive]

I think that a lot of people act like children, and expect their romantic partner to be the parent.

In every other area of my life, I'm mature and reasonable. But in romantic relationship, I regress into a 2-year-old child. I throw tantrums, act bratty, and in general become a handful. And I expect my partner to be unconditionally patient and loving...like a parent.

Maybe a lot of smart, strong, successful women grew up with critical, absent, or unsupportive parents. They were deprived of emotional safety. I've spent my life trying to be noticed: I had more ambition, more flash, more "strength" than many other women. I wanted to prove to society that I was worth something, even if my parents didn't think so.

Unfortunately, that feeling of deprivation really comes out in relationships. It's like my heart has all these holes, and no matter how much love is poured in, it all leaks out. Bottomless pit.

I really want to grow up now. Right now, I feel like no one will love me unless I'm really beautiful, really successful, etc.. So, I pursue these things, not to complement who I am...but to compensate for who I think I'm not.

I would envy these girls, who weren't nearly as pretty or successful as me, but they would have boyfriends who adored them. I always wondered why. Now I know.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by uberinquisitive

I think that a lot of people act like children, and expect their romantic partner to be the parent.

You got it.

[Angela]

Like everybody else, something happened to you when you were a kid and you made it mean something -- you made up your mind about yourself. That decision runs all the decisions you make in your life now, without you even realizing it. From your post, your decision sounds something like, "I am worthless", and now you unconsciously work hard to prove that you're not worthless, and to avoid having anyone find out you are worthless. Of course it's not true; you are essential, irreplaceable and brilliant, but nothing anyone can tell you about how valuable you are will ring true against the power of "I am worthless."

Except that now that you can see that these apparently childish reactions really are coming from a child's decision, it begins to take the power away from it and give you back freedom to choose something that works better, doesn't it? Are you feeling now that you're taking off a scratchy old garment that doesn't fit anymore? The beauty of letting the old pain go is that you make room in your life to accept the love and abundance that the world has to offer you.

Now you can have everything you want!

[uberinquisitive]

Angela, I am feeling the strangest sensation.

I feel pain, fear, panic. Not the depressive, devastating kind. But it's this energy that's going through my body.

I feel a lot of confusion. I expected to feel relief and joy, now that I've "figured it out." Instead, I feel ambivalent and...weak? I don't know what to do next. Do I even do anything?

What if, your entire life, you believed in being a strong woman (i.e. more like a man in accomplishments, maybe even emotions)?

How do you let go of 28 years of habit? How do you rise above your past?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by uberinquisitive

How do you let go of 28 years of habit? How do you rise above your past?

You're already doing it, uberinquisitive; you're looking it square in the face and seeing it for what it is: a ghost! Your habitual way of being, and the past, have only the meaning and power you give them, they are not absolutes, and perhaps you're sensing now the exhorbitant SPACE you have created in your life by watching that meaning and power ebb away.

Now that you find yourself surrounded by all this space in which to create, it's no wonder you find yourself exhiliarated, frightened, energized, overwhelmed... all the things an artist might feel when confronting her big, blank canvas. You can have anything you want.... but that's a big question, isn't it... What do I want?

Would you like to do some work (questions and answers) with me regarding all of this? If so, let's start another thread or do some private communication, so we don't derail this thread any further. If you don't want to do that, I strongly recommend you use this new creative space and time to focus on and narrow down what would be present if you were living your ideal life. I have some book recommendations for you, if you like, ones that have helped me.

I'm so excited for you!

[Jennihul]

All the men I have dated/married love strong, independant, successful and intelligent women.

Those listed traits CAN exist separate from dysfunction.

Jennifer

[Michael Chui]

By the way, see recent book out of Harvard Business entitled "Alpha Male Syndrome".

Dysfunction is an understatement.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

"Alpha Male Syndrome"

Must be really awkward if you have just been diagnosed with that...
Imagine a guy coming home saying to his wife: "Dear, sit down for a moment"

(dramatic pause)

"I have alpha male syndrome"

(apologies if the above wasn't funny at all... I feel a bit funny in my head at the mo... )

[Angela]

Jim, I think you've got SMS -- Smitten Male Syndrome! There's going to be no talking to you for awhile, I think .

[cdn2wheeler]

Haven't read "Alpha Male Syndrome" but it sounds very much like Snakes in Suits. I'd be curious to learn parallels between the two books.

One thing about "Alpha Male Syndrome" is, though, a bit off-putting. There are legions of powerful women in politics and upper-level management that work in exactly the same way, so I think making it a gender-based issue is unfair. See Margaret Thatcher as an example. Or Golda Meier. Condoleeza Rice. Carly Fiorina. Gloria Arroyo... etc

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by Angela

Jim, I think you've got SMS -- Smitten Male Syndrome! There's going to be no talking to you for awhile, I think .

Ahw, crap! That is not contagious, now is it? If it is, I might have to call in sick...

[cdn2wheeler]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

Ahw, crap! That is not contagious, now is it? If it is, I might have to call in sick...

Yea, actually I think it is.

Getting a case here too...

[Angela]

oh, boy, an outbreak of SMS! Next thing you know we're going to have spontaneous poetry breaking out, and guys getting in touch with their feminine sides!

Here for both of you SMSers is a book recommendation: Amazon.com: Cook Your Way Into Her Pants!: Books: Ted Taylor.

[cdn2wheeler]

Originally Posted by Angela

Next thing you know we're going to have spontaneous poetry breaking out, and guys getting in touch with their feminine sides!

Promise me - please promise me - that if at some point I mention that "The Wind Beneath My Wings" by Bette Midler is the pinnacle of romantic music, or I keep changing my mind about stuff, consistently 'forget' to use my turn signals or *shudder* develop an affinity for having more than 3 pair of shoes...


...just farking shoot me.

[Angela]

No way, cdn! I will only encourage you to submit to the schmaltz! I love watching guys be all schmoopy. Soon you will be musing about cute pet names, being moved by embarrasing popular music, and overusing the "sch" sound, too!

[JimOfferman]

I've always felt that The Rose was better than The Wind Beneath My Wings.

And I don't need a book to cook my way into someone's heart... what I do need is some cocao, sugar, some vanilla custard and milk to make the creamiest hot chocolate this side of the planet. It's my unbeatable secret weapon - muahahah!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

And I don't need a book to cook my way into someone's heart... what I do need is some cocao, sugar, some vanilla custard and milk to make the creamiest hot chocolate this side of the planet. It's my unbeatable secret weapon - muahahah!

Look OUT, Miss Dancing Princess!

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by cdn2wheeler

One thing about "Alpha Male Syndrome" is, though, a bit off-putting.

That's a specific section addressed in the book.

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

And I don't need a book to cook my way into someone's heart... what I do need is some cocao, sugar, some vanilla custard and milk to make the creamiest hot chocolate this side of the planet. It's my unbeatable secret weapon - muahahah!

Mind sending me the recipe so I can have this side of the world?

[cdn2wheeler]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

That's a specific section addressed in the book.

Can you elaborate? I haven't read the book...

[da1prophet]

I really dislike anything that purports to generalize about how men (or women) think/act/are or what they "want" pro forma. Personally, I'm *only* attracted to smart, strong women. I was married to one for ten years. I fell for her and stayed married to her for so long due to her depth and intelligence. I'm dating one now. If you have to generalize, there may be certain types of issues that arise in a relationship with what I'll call for the sake of brevity an "intelligent woman" but there's probably a corresponding typology to issues that arise in a relationship with a less intelligent/accomplished woman.

One thing I *do* think I can generalize about is that most of the readers of this forum are of above average intelligence. And intelligence does present problems --both on a personal and interpersonal level. For example, there's a tendency to overanalyze everything in a way a less intelligent person probably wouldn't. When you get two intelligent people together these tendencies will be magnified and could cause problems.

I'll have some more thoughts on this later...

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by cdn2wheeler

Can you elaborate? I haven't read the book...

The dysfunctional qualities that make up the Alpha Male Syndrome are capable of being present in Alpha Females, but the skewage of males possessing is so heavily weighted, and the skewage of males whose personalities were harmful affects, that the title was acceptable.

That said, the descriptions outlined in the book are equally applicable across genders.

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by da1prophet

One thing I *do* think I can generalize about is that most of the readers of this forum are of above average intelligence. And intelligence does present problems --both on a personal and interpersonal level. For example, there's a tendency to overanalyze everything in a way a less intelligent person probably wouldn't. When you get two intelligent people together these tendencies will be magnified and could cause problems.

I don't think overanalysis is an aspect of intelligence (if overanalysis is defined as analysing beyond the point where it's of any use), but rather of introversion and an inability to accept uncertainty. And you don't have to be intelligent to be introverted or unable to accept uncertainty.