Why “Nice Guys” are often such Losers

[Cron]

My friend who found this article summed it up pretty well when she wrote

"If I wanted a puppy dog I would go out and adopt one."

Why “Nice Guys” are often such LOSERS
Heartless Bitches International - Why "Nice Guys" are often such LOSERS

[JimOfferman]

I really wish they would stop equating "nice" with "insecure". Articles like this one (which makes a bunch of pretty valid points) would be a lot more helpful if they'd stop using that stupid misnomer!

[Brutha]

I really wish they would stop equating "nice" with "insecure".

The article doesn't use "nice" but the term "Nice Guy". That is a label for someone who behaves a certain way and quite different from "a guy with nice behavior".

[Honeywith4bees]

I found myself turned off from wanting to glean anything useful from that article (and there were many valid points), simply from the way it seemed to make an unfair generalization that if you are a Nice Guy, you are insecure, clingy, spineless, etc etc etc. Personally, I appreciate things that are written from a more compassionate perspective, or humouress, but not that kind of "hard hearted ♥♥♥♥♥" crassness. Thats just me.

[lizthefair]

Originally Posted by Honeywith4bees

I found myself turned off from wanting to glean anything useful from that article (and there were many valid points), simply from the way it seemed to make an unfair generalization that if you are a Nice Guy, you are insecure, clingy, spineless, etc etc etc. Personally, I appreciate things that are written from a more compassionate perspective, or humouress, but not that kind of "hard hearted ♥♥♥♥♥" crassness. Thats just me.

While I can't speak for this particular article, a lot of the animosity you've noticed in the "Nice Guy" back lash is targeted at the attitude held by some men that as long as you aren't an abusive ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, that women "owe it to you" to go out with you to "give you a chance."

In other words, unless a woman can come up with a specific reason (that you agree with) to not go out with you, she has no choice but to do what you want her to do.

Since that attitude assumes that women don't get decide for themselves who they will date, it is just another form of oppression--albeit often an inadvertent one.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by Brutha

The article doesn't use "nice" but the term "Nice Guy". That is a label for someone who behaves a certain way and quite different from "a guy with nice behavior".

My point exactly! The article targets the former with an inappropriate label and, at best, manages to offend the latter. How useless...

[cdn2wheeler]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

My point exactly! The article targets the former with an inappropriate label and, at best, manages to offend the latter. How useless...

You're right, Jim, but you also have to consider the source. "Heartless b!tches" is probably not a place where one would go for enlightened, reasoned articles about real people and real interactions. Simply put, it seems that contributing writers to sites of that nature are engaged in a type of literary masturbation; that is, writing stuff simply because it makes them feel better. Hey, if that's their thing, then have at it. But don't mistake it for anything remotely close to real life.

[Angela]

I agree with Jim that using labels like this causes problems! Not only because they're offensive and off-putting, but also because they don't describe the same phenomenon to different people.

When I hear a guy use the phrase "Nice Guy", I hear him usually meaning: good-hearted, well-meaning, wants to be in a LTMBR, doesn't get into bar fights or smack women. But when I hear a woman use the same phrase, I know she's usually talking about something else -- something that the woman who wrote this article describes -- that passive aggressive, manipulative, insecure fellow who tries to corner her into a relationship. Two entirely different animals! (Sometimes a woman will say "he's such a nice guy!" with a sparkle in her eye and that usually means she's talking about the guy's definition of a Nice Guy.)

It's hard to have a productive conversation when you're using labels with entirely different definition and intention behind them, especially when they are SO emotionally charged and judgmental-sounding. I think better to just drop 'em out of our vocabulary.

[cylon]

When a guy hears from another guy that he's a "nice guy" he'll take it as a compliment.

When a guy hears from a girl that he's a "nice guy", he'll recoil in horror.

Same thing, two different reactions.

I read the OP article several months ago, as part of my dive into cynicsm (necessary for awhile).

All I can say is the manipulative guy that Angela mentioned isn't a nice guy, but a phony. No one likes a phony, no matter how "nice" they are.

[SmellyOrc]

LTMBR? Long-Time Mutual Beneficial Relationship or something?

[Angela]

"Loving, Long Term Mutually Beneficial Relationship" or -- I just get tired of typing that whole stinkin' thing out, sorry.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by cdn2wheeler

Simply put, it seems that contributing writers to sites of that nature are engaged in a type of literary masturbation; that is, writing stuff simply because it makes them feel better.

Spot on! I don't really mind when people do that (I do it all the time with my music), but it can become a bit of a problem when other people start to rely on such non-advise.

Originally Posted by Angela

It's hard to have a productive conversation when you're using labels with entirely different definition and intention behind them, especially when they are SO emotionally charged and judgmental-sounding. I think better to just drop 'em out of our vocabulary.

Agreed! Defy the labels! Clear and productive communication conquers all!

Now if only I could also convince my fellow country to introduce separate words for girlfriend and friend-who-happens-to-be-a-girl in my language... not having that distinction is highly inconvenient!

[cylon]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

Spot on! I don't really mind when people do that (I do it all the time with my music), but it can become a bit of a problem when other people start to rely on such non-advise.

Are you talking about songwriting? If so what is the general theme of the stuff you write? I ask because as a songwriter I am struggling a little with my lyrical content... used to write very negative things, not sure where to take it now. The music I write is not "happy" sounding.

But anyhow, it's the same with the men's message boards, they go on and on ranting against women. I did my fair share, until I started realizing "wait, I'm focusing on ranting against women... maybe this is not helping my cause of wanting a woman to not rant about".

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by cylon

Are you talking about songwriting? If so what is the general theme of the stuff you write? I ask because as a songwriter I am struggling a little with my lyrical content... used to write very negative things, not sure where to take it now. The music I write is not "happy" sounding.

Well, nowhere does it say that your music has to sound "happy". Writing a dark song can be very satisfying and is also an excellent way to vent that kind of emotion - works for me all the time.

As for themes... I mostly write about love, friendship and personal development. A lot of my own personal development was started by writing songs on the subject. I wrote a song called "Speak Up" to teach myself to be more open about my feelings (I used to be very closed off) and then I wrote another song called "This Is Me" to overcome my lack of self esteem. Ain't songwriting grand?

And the best part: anything goes, really!

But anyhow, it's the same with the men's message boards, they go on and on ranting against women. I did my fair share, until I started realizing "wait, I'm focusing on ranting against women... maybe this is not helping my cause of wanting a woman to not rant about".

That's some smart reasoning right there!

[cylon]

Cool, I find most of my songs are about personal development as well. For a long time I was caught up in that whole "love gone wrong" thing which is probably of what 90% songs out there are about. Now it seems the lyrics are more positive, yet they are over a fairly melancholy song structure, so I guess that's a nice contrast. Sort of like both halves in the same song.

This is a common thing though, don't know if you're into the intention manifestation (loa) aspect of this site, but part of me is afraid to write things that are negative because they may show up in my life. But at the same time I don't want to limit what comes out of me.

[Angela]

Don't you think that writing about the negative stuff goes a long way towards off-loading it?

Unless it becomes a huge hit record and the audience always screams for it as an encore. That might be a drag, huh?

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by cylon

Cool, I find most of my songs are about personal development as well. For a long time I was caught up in that whole "love gone wrong" thing which is probably of what 90% songs out there are about. Now it seems the lyrics are more positive, yet they are over a fairly melancholy song structure, so I guess that's a nice contrast. Sort of like both halves in the same song.

I've had plenty of "love gone wrong" in my life, so my love songs are intentionally more of the "love gone right" kind. There is also light at the end of even the darkest of my songs. My positive personality always shines through in the end.

This is a common thing though, don't know if you're into the intention manifestation (loa) aspect of this site, but part of me is afraid to write things that are negative because they may show up in my life. But at the same time I don't want to limit what comes out of me.

I don't think that Stephen King is worried about any of his horror stories showing up in his own life, so why should you? You are just telling stories, not necessarily putting out the intentions of the characters from your stories (and if you write in the first person, the "I" is really just another character).

Btw. I'm in a state of suspended disbelief on LoA right now. On the one hand, I have trouble accepting that getting what you want/need could be so easy, but on the other hand I see intentions manifest all the time. Pretty weird, but in a cool way.

ps: PM me some lyrics or songs of yours if you like - always fun to swap ideas from one songwriter to another! (There's one of mine in the "A little gift" thread)

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Angela

Don't you think that writing about the negative stuff goes a long way towards off-loading it?

That's the paradox I can't wrap my mind around. It seems the natural thing to do. But then my mind gets overactive "cylon, you're writing negative things and even acknowledging the negative will CREATE more of it" so I censor myself. And as I look back at some of my older songs, I can see how I was reinforcing the negative mindsets that I used to have. But I'm not the same person anymore.

The funny thing is when I write instrumentals, this isn't even an issue.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by cylon

The funny thing is when I write instrumentals, this isn't even an issue.

My favorite love songs are all instrumentals.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Angela

My favorite love songs are all instrumentals.

Good, glad to know there's an audience for them.

[cdn2wheeler]

Not a fan of love songs myself - all that "baring soul" stuff is a little too saccharine for my tastes - but like Angela most of my favourite tunes are instrumentals.

[Brien]

Originally Posted by lizthefair

While I can't speak for this particular article, a lot of the animosity you've noticed in the "Nice Guy" back lash is targeted at the attitude held by some men that as long as you aren't an abusive ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, that women "owe it to you" to go out with you to "give you a chance."

In other words, unless a woman can come up with a specific reason (that you agree with) to not go out with you, she has no choice but to do what you want her to do.

Since that attitude assumes that women don't get decide for themselves who they will date, it is just another form of oppression--albeit often an inadvertent one.

This is probably the most concise criticism I've ever heard of the "nice guy" position (that I agree with). Well put!