"justifying" Animal Abuse?!?!?!?! Now I've Heard It All!!!!!

[VetTechJess]

this just happened not five minutes ago...

my neighbors grandchild was visiting and was just leaving with her three year old son who was throwing a temper tantrum...

she (the grandchild) has a little mutt dog thats a small to midsized dog that was abused by her previous owner. The dogs name is "Shelly".

the three year old, who I will call "jr", had with him a plastic sword.

Anyways shelly runs up next to jr and jr then takes the plastic sword and smacks the dog across the back!!!! with his mother in full view!!!

that strikes a raw nerve with me. I have very few extremely raw nerves and outright animal abuse like that when nothing is done about it just about tops the cake. Understandably.

I am on my front porch and yell at the child, "YOU DON'T HIT ANIMALS, JR!"

and get this: his mother yells at me for yelling at her child telling me that its her child to discipline!! I tell her what he did and her excuse?!?!?! "HE HITS HER ALL THE TIME!"

her son doesnt even get his but whipped for it!!! (Im sorry but theres no amount of time outs or other new age funky woo woo **** that would replace a good old fashioned butt whipping in a case like this, simply because animals dont have a voice for themselves and its our duty as humans to act as guardians for the completely innocent animals since we have dominion over them. the child is not innocent in this case because he knows better than to hit animals, he just hits animals anyways because he knows he will probably not get disciplined for it by his poor parent of a mother...)

I would like to see how that excuse holds up in a Kentucky court of Law!!!!!

I tell her thats absolutely no excuse!!!!! she then gets mad at me!!!!!

My neighbor(her grandmother) is a good neighbor and has been since we moved there. I remember a few weeks ago jr hit a dog, (I forget whether it was shelly or my neighbors daughters dog lucy) and my neighbors daughter was right there and smacked the boy for it. (as well she should have)

As a vet technician student, I can only fear that since shelly was abused by her previous owner, that this child jr hitting her when hes mad throwing a temper tantrum and not getting his way about something will only bring back traumatic memories for that poor little dog.

my biggest fear is that it will be only a matter of time before shelly the dog has enough of that childs abuse and attacks him severely. (shelly already doesnt like men and well, jr is a boy) and the gods forbid if that does happen, it will not be shellys fault, as her reaction would be i think the correct term for it "fear based aggression".

I NEED YOUR COMMENTS ON THIS!!! I DONT THINK THIS WOMAN SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO HAVE ANIMALS AT ALL!!!

[Angela]

Jess! Where have you been? I've missed you!

I agree that people like that shouldn't be allowed to own animals (or bear young, for that matter.) In fact, there are laws against animal abuse -- maybe you could report this to the ASPCA and ask them to remove the animal to a safer place? I don't know about Kentucky, but if someone beat a dog in West Hollywood they would treated harshly by the townsfolk -- animals are considered to be full citizens there.

I understand that kids who abuse animals grow up to abuse human animals -- that child could use an intervention.

[Amandaaa]

that makes me want to cry.

animals dont have a voice for themselves and its our duty as humans to act as guardians for the completely innocent animals since we have dominion over them.

^i completely agree...






i don't understand how some people can try to justify hurting a living, lovable creature like that.
the child probably just sees the dog as a toy-- so he doesn't think he's doing anything wrong.
children don't always see animals as individuals with feelings and stuff like that.


but, i agree with Angela... maybe you can report it to the ASPCA or the Humane Society or something..?

[VetTechJess]

Originally Posted by Angela

Jess! Where have you been? I've missed you!

I agree that people like that shouldn't be allowed to own animals (or bear young, for that matter.) In fact, there are laws against animal abuse -- maybe you could report this to the ASPCA and ask them to remove the animal to a safer place? I don't know about Kentucky, but if someone beat a dog in West Hollywood they would treated harshly by the townsfolk -- animals are considered to be full citizens there.

I understand that kids who abuse animals grow up to abuse human animals -- that child could use an intervention.

thanks...I've been busy. I signed up to be a pet tattooist with tattoo a pet. trying to get business around here but with ppl like that around, I havent had any luck...so Im starting to try to target the kennel clubs and the like (ppl who we know spend alot of money on their animals and would see value in the service I would provide.. ....Ive also updated my site some...(it could prolly still use alot of work [my site] but im working on a template that will hopefully fix that....)


Also, what type of intervention could that child need?!?!

[VetTechJess]

Originally Posted by Amandaaa

that makes me want to cry.



^i completely agree...






i don't understand how some people can try to justify hurting a living, lovable creature like that.
the child probably just sees the dog as a toy-- so he doesn't think he's doing anything wrong.
children don't always see animals as individuals with feelings and stuff like that.


but, i agree with Angela... maybe you can report it to the ASPCA or the Humane Society or something..?

Yea Ive thought about that. right as of now, she cannot have dogs in her apartment so the dog shelly is staying at my neighbors house. Hopefully, besides from the natural hirearchy of the animals already living there, it will be a reprieve, if only temporary...

my biggest fear (and I know this will happen eventually if his mother continues to do nothing about it) is that every animal has its breaking point. One of these days that little dog is going to say "enough is enough" and attack the boy. Probably severely.

I can just consider him lucky his family isnt into buying pit bulls or something like that...

just you watch that dog is gonna attack the boy when he hits her or does something to her hes not supposed to one too many times.....and I will be there in defense of the animal, not the boy or his mother and her lack of parenting disciplining skills.....just you watch...

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Tattooing a pet seems kind of unnecessary and abusive to me...unless I am not understanding what you are talking about...

I agree that children should not abuse animals, but I don't think hitting them will teach them that.

[VetTechJess]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

Tattooing a pet seems kind of unnecessary and abusive to me...unless I am not understanding what you are talking about...

I agree that children should not abuse animals, but I don't think hitting them will teach them that.

oh tattooing pets doesnt hurt the animal. theres more information on the site than I could provide in a single post without the post taking several pages. Tatoo-A-Pet|Pet Protection Registration and Recovery!

they manufacture a marker specifically for animals and the animals anatomy and physiology in mind...


if smacking a child wont teach them not to, what will? Time outs dont work for this kid trust me Ive seen his mother try to enforce time outs--they dont work for him at all and he continues to be a hell child.

what pain would you rather them have: a smack on the butt or a dogs teeth and bite marks etc.?? thing about animals is they have hardcore justice. their teeth do the talking, sometimes with dire consequences....

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

I will check out that link about the tattoo thing. I've just never heard of it, hence the disclaimer. I have two tattoos myself and they weren't exaclty like a sweet breeze on my skin, but I do seem to recall the vet saying once that animals skin is not really like ours. Anyway, I will check out the link. Learn something new everyday, indeed.

One thing I will never agree to is that hitting stops people from hitting. It may work in the short term to curb a behavior, but I believe that it has dire and far reaching concequences. I definitely do not agree that the method of time out for everything works either, but every child I know who has had consistent, infraction-appropriate concequences for their actions along with loving guidance and enough attention has been an angel. I think that's what works and is obviously not what this mom is practicing.

Sorry to derail the thread, but talk of whacking kids gets me rilled up. I will bow out now, unless you want to continue this discussion any further.

[VetTechJess]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

I will check out that link about the tattoo thing. I've just never heard of it, hence the disclaimer. I have two tattoos myself and they weren't exaclty like a sweet breeze on my skin, but I do seem to recall the vet saying once that animals skin is not really like ours. Anyway, I will check out the link. Learn something new everyday, indeed.

One thing I will never agree to is that hitting stops people from hitting. It may work in the short term to curb a behavior, but I believe that it has dire and far reaching concequences. I definitely do not agree that the method of time out for everything works either, but every child I know who has had consistent, infraction-appropriate concequences for their actions along with loving guidance and enough attention has been an angel. I think that's what works and is obviously not what this mom is practicing.

Sorry to derail the thread, but talk of whacking kids gets me rilled up. I will bow out now, unless you want to continue this discussion any further.

on a side note, what about spanking a child gets you riled up? (did you know someone who was abused or spanked excessively as a child?)

that being said, what alternatives would you suggest to spanking a child (ones that have been known to work, time outs dont work)

oh and about the aggression of dogs towards children, read the article (in the dog articles section of my website) that has to do with aggression towards children and the animals reasons for it...

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

I was spanked as a child. I was not abused in the sense that my parents did not spank out of anger or willy nilly. I was mainly a compliant child, so I didn't get spanked much. I also know plenty of people who were abused or whose parents idea of spanking bordered on abuse. Of course all my knowledge on the subject is anecdotal, having observed my peers as well as having worked with children for over 10 years in a group setting along with being "second mother" to a ton of kids. I do believe published research backs me up, however, I do not have resources at hand on this. Will look some up if you like.

I have found tons of things work with children and leave no need to resort to spanking. How do you think people deal with children in situations where spanking is not allowed? Daycares, etc. I can tell you that the time out does work when it is applied properly as do many other methods of correction. That is, it should not be used for every single thing a child does that a parent doesn't like. Let the concequences fit the "crime". Show your child love, respect and engagement. Make sure they know the rules and the concequences for misbehavior. Most importantly, be consistent. Use natural concequences. Be an example. Start early and your work will be done for you as the years go by.

I would wager that this mother says "time out" all the time without really enforcing it so that it has become meaningless. Also, from your description it doesn't sound like she has shown her child through her actions or in words how to behave.

I know so many children who have not been spanked once in their life who are absolute joys - well mannered, kind, compassionate, intelligent, understanding of right and wrong - to believe it's the only way.

[JimOfferman]

Not to defend this kid's behavior, but I'd be careful not to cry abuse too easily. Could very well be that you are absolutely right in this case and it does trouble me that his guardian casually says that the kid hits the dog all the time - that definitely is a bit off. Still, I would like to offer a slightly different perspective. This gets a little ranty, so be warned:

I didn't have plastic swords when I was little (mum wouldn't allow it), but I most definitely caused quite a few bruises on our dog Robbie when I was little, just as he scratched me up pretty badly a few times. Why? Because we were, essentially, two boys growing up and boys tend to play rough. Boys get in fights and boys some times smack each other in the face for no apparent reason.

Like it or not, agression is part of a boy's journey to manhood. I don't really think that agression needs to be actively encouraged in boys, but I also think that it is very important to let boys be boys and to let them learn, through 'play' fighting, that acts of agression are not without consequences.

My mother must have told me a hundred times not to push Robbie too far, but I didn't really understand what "too far" was until I had to carry his teeth marks on my arm for a week at least. Ouch! That was a painful lesson indeed and I can still hear the "I told you so" that mum gave me afterwards ringing in my ear. But I also learned that day how to recognize the "don't push me any further" glint in someone's eye, which kept me out of a lot of fights later on in life. Another thing I learned from that experience is that animals can and will defend themselves. So all in all, it was a pretty educational experience...

And, just for the record, I absolutely adored Robbie like a little brother and would have died to protect him.

Maybe this kid is like me when I was little, maybe not - I really can't say as I wasn't there to see it. Just wanted to point out that it could also be boys being boys.

[Angela]

You brute! NotesMaeve, you can have him.

[JimOfferman]

*runs fast as his legs can carry him*

[carenkh]

Originally Posted by Amandaaa

i don't understand how some people can try to justify hurting a living, lovable creature like that.
the child probably just sees the dog as a toy-- so he doesn't think he's doing anything wrong.
children don't always see animals as individuals with feelings and stuff like that.

i don't understand how some people can try to justify hurting a living, lovable creature like that.
the adults probably just see the child as something to be controlled -- so they don't think they're doing anything wrong.
Adults don't always see children as individuals with feelings and stuff like that.

[carenkh]

Try going to the child, gently kneeling down to his level and saying "You're really angry! It hurts the dog when you hit him. If you want to hit something with the sword, let's see what we can find that won't be hurt." And this may need to be repeated many times.

If you want a child to be less violent, using violence (yelling and hitting) won't achieve that goal in the long term.

Non-Violent Communication