Why date someone you don't fancy?

[JimOfferman]

So my date last night was a bit of a disaster (understatement). At first I blaimed the failure mostly on my lack of affirmative action. It's not that I didn't want to do something, but my body just refused to co-operate. Turns out my body is smarter than me and was just trying to say: "this one ain't gonna fly bud!". That's one lesson learned, right there - always listen to your own body! Anyway, I could not stand being in relationship-limboland any longer, so I made quite clear verbally how I felt and what I wanted. Sadly, the answer to that was no. Bummer. Heart crash. Not a good night... better luck next time, I guess.

One thing she said puzzles me a bit. She told me that when we went on dates, I was always expecting something to happen (which was true), but she didn't want that (or at least not anymore).

Why then would she still go on dates with me? When you know that someone is enamored with you and is looking to find a relationship, but you are not open to letting that happen, what good can come out of it? You're just setting everybody up to get hurt. Beats me why you'd want to do that...

[Angela]

Jim, I dyslexically read your thread title as: "Why don't you date someone fancy?" which made me laugh.

I was a little mixed up by your post, too. The first part sounded like your body was saying, "this one ain't gonna fly", which I thought meant: you couldn't get aroused by her, and that was your body's way of saying no way jose to your heart & mind. But then you said you were "always expecting something to happen." Is it possible that your messages to this woman were mixed, in more than one way? That would make sense, then, that you would attract a woman who was also not quite clear about what she wanted.

I think often people fool themselves into thinking that something is better than nothing, when it comes to dating. Also, I think women will keep going out with a guy even if it doesn't feel quite right, with the idea that he'll grow on her. That actually happened to some extent with me and Danger Man -- it took a few dates for me to really be sexually attracted to him. Which is odd, because he's classically handsome -- a successful model, as a matter of fact. You never know about pheromones. I don't think that happens quite as often with men -- they seem to usually either find a woman hot or not, right away.

What is that old saying, a man falls in love with a woman he's attracted to, and a woman grows attracted to the man she falls in love with?

[NotesMaeve]

Angela, ditto on the "taking awhile to find a guy hot" thing. When I first saw a picture of Slamhot that was current, I remember thinking, "Wow. He looks like an actor from a Lifetime movie about wife-beating." Not ugly, but every time I'd look at that picture, I'd just see him in my mind hovering over Delta Burke yelling at her that no one would ever love her. (In fairness, he SO would do that to Delta.)

Jim, I think a lot of people don't know their own feelings. I don't always even know how I feel. It takes time to sort it out.

[Zukin]

Given the chance, I think anyone would yell at Delta Burke, except maybe The Ladies Man.

I see this as a huge business opportunity. With all the unhappy relationships out there, people would probably be willing to pay thousands of dollars a piece if they could get matched with someone and have a 90% or more chance of that relationship lasting and being fulfilling (or being quick and dirty, if that's what both people want). And the research to do that already exists:
Measurement of partner compatibility: further validation and refinement of the CQ test - Sexual and Relationship Therapy

eharmony and other matchmaking services do that to some degree, but there's still a lot of room for growth.

Of course, some people see the dating process and search for a mate as part of the fun.

[JimOfferman]

Thanks Angela and NotesMaeve for sharing your perspectives on this!

I understand the "he might grow on me" bit, but once you found that was not going to happen anymore, you'd stop right?

All signals were very clear during the first couple of dates, but then we ran into that thing about her past. When we then later picked up dating again, my signals were probably less clear. I was absolutely certain about what I wanted, but I was unsure if I was going to get it (seeing as I failed first time around). That uncertainty, of course, was reflected in my actions.

But yesterday was pretty extreme, in that I all but froze up. Beforehand, I'd decided that I'd better act in a way that made my intentions very clear. But when push came to show, I couldn't move a muscle. My best explanation for it is that my body somehow already knew that love was flowing only in one direction

[NotesMaeve]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

Thanks Angela and NotesMaeve for sharing your perspectives on this!

I understand the "he might grow on me" bit, but once you found that was not going to happen anymore, you'd stop right?

All signals were very clear during the first couple of dates, but then we ran into that thing about her past. When we then later picked up dating again, my signals were probably less clear. I was absolutely certain about what I wanted, but I was unsure if I was going to get it (seeing as I failed first time around). That uncertainty, of course, was reflected in my actions.

But yesterday was pretty extreme, in that I all but froze up. Beforehand, I'd decided that I'd better act in a way that made my intentions very clear. But when push came to show, I couldn't move a muscle. My best explanation for it is that my body somehow already knew that love was flowing only in one direction

See? There's a reason I'm too hungover to do anything than order pizza and surf the 'net. NotesMaeve: Now with Perspective!

Well, once we're talking bedroom level, I've told guys in the past that I just don't think we should hang out that way.

Jim, I'm so off the market right now, but you're a hottie. You're really funny, insightful, cool, and if I were a single woman in the Netherlands, yeah, I'd so go for it.

This chick? Not the one. A really beautiful, smart, fun woman is going to blow this last little lady out of the water, and she's going to see all the bomb qualities I see in you. I just think you needed to hear that.

I think part of what makes a soul mate a soul mate is the things that you see in the other person and that they see in you that aren't easily seen by others or that aren't even capable of being vocalized. And when you know that's in front of you, what sane person wants anything else?

[cdn2wheeler]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

One thing she said puzzles me a bit. She told me that when we went on dates, I was always expecting something to happen (which was true), but she didn't want that (or at least not anymore).

Why then would she still go on dates with me? When you know that someone is enamored with you and is looking to find a relationship, but you are not open to letting that happen, what good can come out of it? You're just setting everybody up to get hurt. Beats me why you'd want to do that...

Two reasons:

1. You're an ego boost for her. You wanted something she had the power to provide or deny. She denied it, boosting her own power and subtracting some from you.
2. She gets to go out on your dime, have a free meal, movie (or whatever) and she's already made it clear that you and she aren't going any further. She's using you, my friend (spoken from someone who's been used more often than I care to admit).

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

I made quite clear verbally how I felt and what I wanted

My musical friend, unless you're already in a deep, trusting and meaningful relationship with a woman, never under any circumstances whatsoever, share feelings like that. There's a world of difference between what they say and what they mean when women say, "I want someone who's not afraid of sharing their feelings with me." It causes a fundamental unbalancing of the relationship dynamic, and the result is exactly what you've experienced: a huge power shift away from you and towards her.

Quite simply, she's playing power games with you. Have none of it. Drop her like a hot potato at a maggot festival.

[NotesMaeve]

Originally Posted by cdn2wheeler

Two reasons:

1. You're an ego boost for her. You wanted something she had the power to provide or deny. She denied it, boosting her own power and subtracting some from you.
2. She gets to go out on your dime, have a free meal, movie (or whatever) and she's already made it clear that you and she aren't going any further. She's using you, my friend (spoken from someone who's been used more often than I care to admit).

Agreed 100%.

My musical friend, unless you're already in a deep, trusting and meaningful relationship with a woman, never under any circumstances whatsoever, share feelings like that. There's a world of difference between what they say and what they mean when women say, "I want someone who's not afraid of sharing their feelings with me." It causes a fundamental unbalancing of the relationship dynamic, and the result is exactly what you've experienced: a huge power shift away from you and towards her.

Disagreed 100%. Guys who are emotionally honest are hot.

I am totally in love with a guy who put his guts out there when the only deep thing he'd had with me is something I can't discuss in mixed company. If people were totally honest about feelings and intentions, wouldn't dating be easier? Why shouldn't things be like that?

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by NotesMaeve

See? There's a reason I'm too hungover to do anything than order pizza and surf the 'net. NotesMaeve: Now with Perspective!

LOL!

Jim, I'm so off the market right now, but you're a hottie. You're really funny, insightful, cool, and if I were a single woman in the Netherlands, yeah, I'd so go for it.

Ahw, jeesh, thanks! *blush*
You just totally made my morning there
I like you too dear, in a friendly kind of way

This chick? Not the one.

Have to agree there. Although she was very beautiful and funny. I was gonna say smart also, but that was before she skipped out on the chance to be with me.

Anyway, she is in the past now... on to a brighter future!

I think part of what makes a soul mate a soul mate is the things that you see in the other person and that they see in you that aren't easily seen by others or that aren't even capable of being vocalized. And when you know that's in front of you, what sane person wants anything else?

That's exactly what I felt on the first couple of dates. In fact, back then, I was all but certain that we would end up together, from the smooth ways things were going. But I guess we were meant to only go so far on this.

Originally Posted by cdn2wheeler

Two reasons:

Yeah, those are two very understandable reasons. Both are incongruent with how I am, but I can see why people would use those as motivations to keep going on dates.

My musical friend, unless you're already in a deep, trusting and meaningful relationship with a woman, never under any circumstances whatsoever, share feelings like that. There's a world of difference between what they say and what they mean when women say, "I want someone who's not afraid of sharing their feelings with me." It causes a fundamental unbalancing of the relationship dynamic, and the result is exactly what you've experienced: a huge power shift away from you and towards her.

It actually felt more like me using my power over our relationship to force a decision out of her. I could have continued dating with her, hoping that a more oppertune moment for romance would present itself on the next or the one after or the one after that. But that wasn't what I wanted. I really needed a yes or no answer and I needed it now.

Of course, I would have rather had that she answered yes, but she didn't and that is her loss, not mine.

Plus I like being considered hot for being emotionally honest!

Quite simply, she's playing power games with you. Have none of it. Drop her like a hot potato at a maggot festival.

Yeah, the game really is over on this one.

Jim.

[cdn2wheeler]

Originally Posted by NotesMaeve

I am totally in love with a guy who put his guts out there when the only deep thing he'd had with me is something I can't discuss in mixed company. If people were totally honest about feelings and intentions, wouldn't dating be easier? Why shouldn't things be like that?

NotesMaeve, you're in a committed relationship with your guy, so there's already a relationship dynamic that's been established. But before it's established is not a good time for a guy to open up his heart, because doing so fundamentally messes up the power dynamic in a prospective relationship to his major disadvantage. Like it or not - and I've been there, so I speak from experience - as soon as a fellow does this, his value in her eyes drops immediately and irreversibly. I'm not sure why that is, frankly, but I've seen it happen over and over and over again.

[andrew]

Yep, spot on. It drops because the fun is all gone. There's no mystery left. Girls don't like black and white, they like 100 shades of grey, and sort which ones are more black than white. But once they know which are which, they're done with them and move on. Once you master a puzzle, it rarely fascinates you anymore, and spilling your guts is akin to handing over the answer to the puzzle. It's just not fun. There's also a ton of evolutionary reason why this is as well, but we don't need to go there.

[Rose of Cairo]

I have to disagree strongly here!

cdn2wheeler, you have no idea why she behaves the way she behaves, why do you immediately think of some dark power games and her using him?? Obviously you've had bad experiences with women in the past, but that's not a reason for projecting this on every woman and every relationship! That's your reality. There are PLENTY of reasons why she could behave like this, why do you automatically assume that such a worst case is true?

I personally cannot imagine at all that someone would go out with someone else to get a free meal (!?! ). Especially in the Netherlands. You don't even know if Jim invited her. That the man invites the woman is not automatically the case here in Europe you know. This explanation just seems totally ridiculous in my eyes.

I don't know why she did it, I'm not in her head and I know too little about the situation. Maybe you're right, it was about power and free meals. But maybe she just wasn't clear about her feelings and needed more time before something could happen?

Or maybe she didn't want a relationship with Jim, but she wanted them to be friends because he's such a great guy and she likes him a lot? Or she was attracted to him and gave him some signs subconsciously, but for some personal reason doesn't want a relationship now? It's hard to stop seeing someone just because you know it doesn't make sense when you're attracted to him, or when you really like him so much and it's just too bad he wants more than you! Maybe she hoped that Jim would get used to the idea that they are just friends and stop wanting more after a while.

Something else: are you sure it was romantic dating for her? Maybe in her eyes it was "going out with a friend".

Jim, is that the same girl as the one you promised to be just friends with?

edit: I burnt my pizza over this post...

[JimOfferman]

Rose,

Sorry you burnt your pizza over your post - extra special thanks for taking the time to write it though.

Yes, this was the same girl. I don't really think it was about power and free meals either. She just doesn't seem to be the type for that. My gut feeling says that it boils down to a timing problem. That is, maybe if I could have been patient for another half year or longer, then maybe there would be a chance that things would work out.

I'm not that patient anymore. I never date more than one girl at the time (just not that kind of guy) and I can't afford to keep myself of the market for such a long time for the off chance that something might happen in the future.

The weird thing is that I am 100% over it already.

Jim.

ps: I went to a folk ball today (a friend had been pestering me until I finally caved in). Had a blast and you wouldn't believe how much attention I received from all the wonderful women who were there. Danced a couple of waltzes with one stellar lady and she just stared me right in the eyes the whole time - that was totally awesome! Plus I made a new friend to go sailing with. So it turned out to be a pretty good weekend afer all

[NotesMaeve]

Atta boy, Jim! Get back in the saddle! Get any numbers?

[JimOfferman]

Of course I did! There's no point in knowing hot people if you have no way of reaching them

[Angela]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

Had a blast and you wouldn't believe how much attention I received from all the wonderful women who were there. Danced a couple of waltzes with one stellar lady and she just stared me right in the eyes the whole time - that was totally awesome!

Sounds like she was giving you the Silent Technique!!

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by Angela

Sounds like she was giving you the Silent Technique!!

I thought that too!