I'm in a Relationship with a Murderer!

[Angela]

I just came across this article and wonder if any of y'all have had similar dating issues:

Vegans dating Vegetarians relationship tension

[Zukin]

Wow, that thread title sure got my attention!

I can't imagine what would happen if a breatharian dated a food-eater.

[cdn2wheeler]

I dated a vegetarian for a short time but it didn't last. I couldn't get over the sense of pleasure she had when she ripped a carrot from it's earthly home and shredded it with her molars. It was horrible..! And the things she did with broccoli... agh..! Mutilating those beautiful little vegetables with a razor-sharp knife! It was just too much for my delicate sensibilities to bear.

[Angela]

I know what you mean, cdn2wheeler. Especially when they're BABY carrots.

[NotesMaeve]

Ooooh, my friend is omni and dated a vegan for seven years. I'm veggie and date an omni. Luckily, he's witty, brilliant, and handsome, so he can exploit a few little animals. ;-)

[cdn2wheeler]

Originally Posted by Angela

I know what you mean, cdn2wheeler. Especially when they're BABY carrots.

I know. The horror, the horror..!

[Rose of Cairo]

OH YEAH...

My bf eats no dairy, but he loves meat. A meal without meat isn't a meal for him. I used to cook for both of us, with meat for him, vegan for me. First I thought this wouldn't be a problem for me, but soon I realized that I was feeling very bad doing this. I want to live congruently. So recently I told him I won't cook or buy meat any more. He's free to eat what he wants, but I don't want to have anything to do with it. He got VERY angry...

[Angela]

Wow, Rose -- a vegan and a carnivore -- that's a big dichotomy (at least I think it is, without having looked that word up ).

Are you living together? Eating together is such a big part of my relationship, it's hard to imagine having split values like this and making it work. How do you deal with it?

[Rose of Cairo]

Yes we're living together. How we deal with it? Well... like I said.

for me it is murder indeed. I find it disgusting to open the fridge and see a leg lying in there first thing in the morning. In my morals it's absolutely wrong. I want to live congruently with my values so I won't touch any meat any more, even to buy or cook it. But I don't feel ethically in a position where I could judge him. I've been eating meat for many years too. It's his life, his decision. I can decide in my own life, nothing more. So I respect his decision, he's free to do what he wants. Btw, I do things that are wrong in my own belief system too. When I look at my clothes for example, they're vegan, but probably they are made somewhere in Asia by a child paid 3 cts an hour. When I have more money, I'll buy some fair traded organic clothes. Now it's not possible yet. But being a vegan is easy and I can do it now.

For him it's really a big problem, as he wants me to cook meat for him. As I said, he's angry. It's not about having different values, it's that he wants his gf to cook for him and he wants to eat meat. I tried to explain why I feel the way I feel, but he's not interested in knowing that. He would never kill an animal himself, but as long as others do this without him knowing any details, he wants to eat what he's used to eat and he doesn't want to know what happens in those meat factories. And I don't want to support it in any way.

I have no clue how we will resolve this conflict

[cdn2wheeler]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

First I thought this wouldn't be a problem for me, but soon I realized that I was feeling very bad doing this. I want to live congruently. So recently I told him I won't cook or buy meat any more. He's free to eat what he wants, but I don't want to have anything to do with it. He got VERY angry...

It's probably less about the fact that you won't cook or eat meat than that it was OK for a while and then you changed your mind about it. At least, that's how I'd probably perceive it.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by cdn2wheeler

It's probably less about the fact that you won't cook or eat meat than that it was OK for a while and then you changed your mind about it. At least, that's how I'd probably perceive it.

Ha! That sounds familiar -- remember the guy whose girlfriend suddenly pulled the curtain down on their sex life? It's a challenge to renegotiate in a relationship, isn't it! Rose, I have a feeling you'll resolve things skillfully. You're good at getting to the meat of the matter!

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by cdn2wheeler

It's probably less about the fact that you won't cook or eat meat than that it was OK for a while and then you changed your mind about it. At least, that's how I'd probably perceive it.

I didn't say "cook or eat", I said "cook or buy". the "eat" thing already was before I met him.

I don't understand your point. Can you explain to me why I would suddenly change my mind about cooking meat or not after a while, if it's not about cooking meat??

I didn't say I won't cook for him at all any more. I said I won't cook any meat for him any more. I can cook something vegan for him and he's absolutely free to cook some self-bought meat himself and eat it additionally to what I cook. He doesn't want, but that's not my problem.

you don't seem to take this seriously, but cooking or not cooking meat is a very important thing for me. Maybe for you that's different, but I really don't feel good doing so. That's not an excuse for something else, it's important to me. If I was fed up with cooking, I would tell him I'm fed up with cooking you know. I wouldn't need false ethical reasons.

(if your gf tells you something like that, wouldn't you take her reasons seriously either? would you assume that's an excuse for something else, although she explains like I did? amazing...)

Angela, basically there are three possibilities:
1. he learns to cook meat additionally to my vegan stuff
2. he eats something else and I don't cook for him any more
3. he leaves me

the decision is his now. I'll not change my mind.

[ReallyGoodIdeas]

Fair enough Rose, I'm with you on it. I went through a stage (about a year) when I refused to buy or cook any meat. I didn't have any pressure, being a single mother whose daughter was more extreme on this than I was at the time.

I've recently married the love of my life though, who thought vegetables were optional extras. His eating habits are pretty different to mine and there's been some negotiation. My husband cooks meat, I don't. We get on fine with this. If I'm cooking, its a vegie meal, he's surprised himself with finding vegie meals interesting. I've started eating meat again, in v small quantities. That's how we've managed. But I wasn't wedded to the vegan lifestyle completely, so negotiation could work here. I don't mind eating meat, so we as a family have moved to a minimal meat diet (still no dairy though).

Good luck Rose! You need to do what you feel comfortable with, and anyone who tries to pressure you to do otherwise is not worthy of you!

much love, Hazel

[Angela]

Hey, Rose, in addition to the three options you outlined, it looks like it would mean a lot to you if he would respect your values-based decision, which clearly is very important to you -- your buttons got pushed a little, didn't they? (I don't think cdn2wheeler was making light of what you're going through, by the way; I think he was just offering up a different perspective.)

Maybe I'm just projecting, but if my man got angry because I was standing up for my values, that would probably hurt. I think respecting one another's values, whether you can live with them or not, is one of the most important things in a relationship.

I think that's why I started this thread -- it's hard to imagine how difficult it must be to deal with such a difference in values in a relationship when it comes to this issue.

[Rose of Cairo]

Aaaaaaah, now I got it! I'm sorry!

I thought cdn2wheeler meant that my decision was less about not cooking meat and more about just changing my mind. That pushed my buttons, yes, because I had explained how much cooking meat or not means to me and then he comes and says "it's not really about the meat, it's just that you don't want to cook anymore".

But now I see that he probably meant that my bf being angry is less about not cooking meat and more about me changing my mind after a while. Is it what you meant cdn2wheeler? I didn't get it. Please read my previous post in that light. I'm so sorry for being such an impulsive person...!

Yes you're right Angela, it would mean a lot to me if he could just aknowledge my values and following decisions. But he doesn't accept my values as equally worthy and he condemns my decisions (not only this one) and my whole lifestyle too. Everything I do is not orderly in his opinion.

My opinion is that it's not a problem to be different, to have different values and different lifestyles. What makes it really difficult is that he thinks his values are more worthy than mine. But I'm sure we could find a solution for everything. As I said, I could cook vegan and he cooks meat, no problem.

Just like ReallyGoodIdeas, she's found an agreement with her husband too. In their case it's working even with different values. That's great for you, Hazel. I'm glad for you And thanks for your kind words

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

I have no clue how we will resolve this conflict

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

basically there are three possibilities:
1. he learns to cook meat additionally to my vegan stuff
2. he eats something else and I don't cook for him any more
3. he leaves me

the decision is his now. I'll not change my mind.

Originally Posted by Angela

it's hard to imagine how difficult it must be to deal with such a difference in values in a relationship when it comes to this issue.

Rose, see your bf as yourself. That's the reality of it anyway. Actually everything is you when you come down to it. You're not going to resolve this without adding some consciousness to the experience.

You (rose) eat vegan foods.
You (boyfriend) eat meat.

If you can see yourself as 'the other' the problem disappears. If you can't make that stretch, you will fight, and you will both get angry.

Consciousness knows nothing of right and wrong. It knows experiences, that's all. You can keep your feeling of righteousness if you want, or you can choose to surrender your judgments and see what happens. (and that doesn't mean you'll have to cook meals with meat, but then again, you might.)

[cdn2wheeler]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

But now I see that he probably meant that my bf being angry is less about not cooking meat and more about me changing my mind after a while. Is it what you meant cdn2wheeler? I didn't get it. Please read my previous post in that light. I'm so sorry for being such an impulsive person...!

Yes, Rose, that's exactly what I meant. I suppose I just didn't explain it properly (I was really, really tired when I wrote it); my fault, not yours. No harm done.

[Rose of Cairo]

cdn2wheeler: and I was really, really tired when I read it... it's not your fault, I was concentrating on my decision so I automatically thought you were talking about my decision. Well ok now everything's fine

Dharma, are you saying I'm too judgemental towards him? Why? it's ok for me that he eats meat. I just want him to respect my decision.

We don't fight, and I'm not angry, btw.

[carenkh]

Possibly way OT, but this reminded me of a recent post on a new favorite blog, Confessions of a Pioneer Woman. This is part of a multi-post entry about meeting her husband - hot stuff!

[Jenny]

Originally Posted by carenkh

Possibly way OT, but this reminded me of a recent post on a new favorite blog, Confessions of a Pioneer Woman. This is part of a multi-post entry about meeting her husband - hot stuff!

Hot!! Nice link. Thanks!

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

Dharma, are you saying I'm too judgemental towards him? Why? it's ok for me that he eats meat. I just want him to respect my decision..

I'm saying see him as you and look at the interplay you're having with yourself. The judgements are on yourself and veganism. I said to consider letting go of those judgements because you're using them as a reason to support the "story of Rose", rather than go deeper into what you're trying to show yourself with your boyfriend. Judgements are: I'm bad for preparing meals with meat, I'm not congruent (that's bad), and veganism is good.

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

First I thought this wouldn't be a problem for me, but soon I realized that I was feeling very bad doing this. I want to live congruently. So recently I told him I won't cook or buy meat any more. He's free to eat what he wants, but I don't want to have anything to do with it. He got VERY angry...

Before I said all-is-one and I think you know that. Can you see your boyfriend as a reflection of yourself? A mirror which you can see yourself in? Using him as a reflection we can go a little deeper into this scenario.

There's a part of you that likes veganism (Rose) and there's another part of you (boyfriend) that likes meat. There's no problem with the two lifestyle choices as you have said, you just won't cook for him or he needs to leave you.

Well if there's no problem, why is he getting angry?

Here's where we go into reflection and see him as a mirror of you. It also pays to be a bit symbolic with things as we go.

He's angry because you won't cook for him anymore because you feel you're not congruent with your belief in veganism. Close enough?

I'm angry because I won't cook for me because I feel I'm not congruent with my belief in veganism.

What is cooking and food anyway? It's how we nourish ourselves. Veganism is a belief system. A belief that there is a righter way to nourish myself. Its a play of right and wrong, which as I said before, consciousness knows nothing of. Polarity does not exist.

So, I'm angry [at myself] and I won't nourish myself because of my constant battle with right and wrong in my life.

Through my interaction with my boyfriend, I'm telling me, I would rather stop nourishing myself than give up my game of right and wrong.

Do that anywhere else in life, Rose? (Are you getting it's not really about vegan and meat?)

You're telling yourself you want to give up your game of polarity. I think you want to keep cooking for your boyfriend, but the damn right/wrong puts you in the wrong for doing it. (and that manifests as anger cuz you're now stuck in a corner.) So you either heed your righteousness or out with the boyfriend?

I'm not angry or anything as i type this, my words might seem a little sharp. This is an important choice you can make, regardless if you cook for your BF or not. You will be much more free if you let go of the polarized positions you carry around with you. You will have much more space and room to move and create.

[Angela]

Dharma, you're funny! Rose is probably doing some kind of mirroring (I say that because she's in a relationship and that's what tends to happen in relationships) but by you to tell her exactly how she's mirroring her boyfriend, you are creating a funhouse hall of crazy mirrors! The thing is, you can look in a mirror and ask yourself questions, and others can ask you what it is you see and hopefully help you to see yourself in a new light -- but as soon as you start TELLING someone what they see in the mirror, then it's just YOU doing some mirroring of your own.

TELLING someone what they are doing, seeing, thinking, and believing -- informing them, without checking it out with them -- can feel very oppressive, and doesn't exactly create a space of freedom for the person.

Or maybe it's just me mirroring! Rose, what do you think?

[Dharma]

Not sure how to respond here. I could tell you I have years of experience doing reflection and it is not just something I read in a book. I might have framed pieces of paper on my wall and little letters after my name saying I know something. I may have sat at the feet of the master for years, but none of that carries any weight.

Are you saying I cannot pick out the reflection because I'm not her? And how dare I know her better than she does by her own reflection?

I could use different language, I could make it all light and love, I could not sound so damn sure of myself, but that's not how it was coming out of me. I know the issue has nothing to do with vegan/non-vegan. That's a cover for something deeper.

Do I have fear when I write one of these in the forum? Damn straight. And look at the reflection I got in the from of your post. That would tell me that yes, I do still wrap fear around my expression. I gotta work on receiving what I say, and how I express it, and be ok with it. Also it appears I'm running the same game on my awareness. It's not right to have so much awareness and actually express it. I might upset people (me).

Originally Posted by Angela

TELLING someone what they are doing, seeing, thinking, and believing -- informing them, without checking it out with them -- can feel very oppressive, and doesn't exactly create a space of freedom for the person.

Or maybe it's just me mirroring! Rose, what do you think?

We'll see what Rose says.

For me (and maybe Angela ):
I'm telling me that bringing awareness to what I am doing , seeing, thinking, and believing -- informing me of me, without checking it out with me first -- can feel very oppressive, and doesn't exactly create a space of freedom for me.

So I'm telling myself I'm uncomfortable using my awareness on certain aspects of myself and I should check in with myself (so I can filter it out, unground myself, distract, leave, etc.) so I don't see things about me that I will react to and feel uncomfortable with.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Dharma

Are you saying I cannot pick out the reflection because I'm not her? And how dare I know her better than she does by her own reflection?

Dharma, I'm saying that whatever reflection you pick out in another person is simply a reflection of a reflection.

I get the impression from Rose that she is living in accordance with her standards, and she's a little sad that her boyfriend reacts with anger to that, but ultimately leaves whatever decision he makes about his satisfaction and fulfillment with him, where it belongs. Sounds pretty straightforward to me. Am I understanding you right, Rose?

And you, Dharma, seem to have decided that Rose is "not congruent with her veganism", is insisting on being right and making bf wrong. You tell her that her righteousness is getting in the way of her relationship. I don't see that here, but you do.

Whatever is so for Rose, you and I are reflecting upon her reflections (which she might not even be reflecting!) My point is that you and I, Dharma, will see what we see in our mirror, but what we are told we see in the mirror is not what we see in the mirror.

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by Angela

My point is that you and I, Dharma, will see what we see in our mirror, but what we are told we see in the mirror is not what we see in the mirror.

Then.... no one can ever support anyone else on their path because anything they say is about themselves and not useful to the person they are speaking with??

When I am with my teachers and classmates, I DEPEND on them to have more awareness about me than I do about certain things. If they did not, I would never get out of certain patterns of denial, because patterns are designed not to be gotten out of. That's the nature of denial.

If we stay at the level of "that's a reflection of a reflection of a reflection... etc.", we'll never get to anything useful, because you can always push it off on the other person as being their reflection. That's a defense mechanism to get the spotlight off of you. Reflection ceases to be a tool of consciousness.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Dharma

Then.... no one can ever support anyone else on their path because anything they say is about themselves and not useful to the person they are speaking with??

When I am with my teachers and classmates, I DEPEND on them to have more awareness about me than I do about certain things. If they did not, I would never get out of certain patterns of denial, because patterns are designed not to be gotten out of. That's the nature of denial.

If we stay at the level of "that's a reflection of a reflection of a reflection... etc.", we'll never get to anything useful, because you can always push it off on the other person as being their reflection. That's a defense mechanism to get the spotlight off of you. Reflection ceases to be a tool of consciousness.

Dharma, you sure make an awful lot of presumptions! And that's what I'm objecting to. Like: "that's a defense mechanism to get the spotlight off of you." (not something I'm likely to do!). You are perfectly on target in pointing out directions for people to look at themselves, but telling them what they (we) are thinking, doing, or believing is presumptuous. You can tell people they're in denial all you want, but do you think that will help people see themselves more clearly? I don't think so.

[The David]

I just have to ask: At what age does a carrot cease to be worth protecting?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by The David

I just have to ask: At what age does a carrot cease to be worth protecting?

When it becomes a carotene-ager.

[NotesMaeve]

Originally Posted by The David

I just have to ask: At what age does a carrot cease to be worth protecting?

Why do you assume the only reason for vegetarianism/veganism is simply not eating the thing itself?

[Rose of Cairo]

Uuuuugh I'm feeling a bit uncomfortable now, as if every word of mine will be analyzed and counter-analyzed ten times now

ok, first of all I agree with Dharma that there is more than vegan/non-vegan here. I already was thinking of some SR-mirroring-interpretations, but I didn't talk about that here because I thought this would be totally off-topic. This thread basically was about having different values about veganism or not in a relationship so I just related my case.

However, I don't agree with your interpretation, Dharma. Or let's say I'm just baffled and don't know how this relates to my life.

You see the situation as "I'm angry because I won't cook for me because I feel I'm not congruent with my belief in veganism", I don't agree. I won't cook meat because I AM congruent with my "belief" (I don't like the word belief applied to veganism, but ok) in veganism.

Ok, then you translate this to "I'm angry [at myself] and I won't nourish myself because of my constant battle with right and wrong in my life." I don't agree either. First, I cannot see any "constant battle with right and wrong in my life". I'm very happy with my decisions. Second, that I won't cook any meat doesn't mean that I won't nourish myself [him] any more. If I cook some vegan stuff, I'll still nourish us.

The point here is more that he's angry because it's a clear loss of comfort for him. He wants his gf to cook, and he wants to eat meat as he's used to. Now he must either learn cooking, or eat some bread with ham instead of a nice warm meal, or leave his gf (which means looking for another appt and move..) That's all things that suck for him. So I would translate to "I'm angry at myself because I have to give up a lot of comfort because I live congruently with my values".

That I have to give up a lot of comfort to live congruently with my values might be true. I'm not aware of being angry about it, but maybe that's the mirroring?

You're telling yourself you want to give up your game of polarity. I think you want to keep cooking for your boyfriend, but the damn right/wrong puts you in the wrong for doing it. (and that manifests as anger cuz you're now stuck in a corner.) So you either heed your righteousness or out with the boyfriend?

I don't agree at all! I don't feel stuck in a corner at all. Keeping cooking is not that important, and I don't think "I want to do it but it's wrong" at all. I think "Gee! I'm happy I don't do it anymore!" And I don't want to give up my "game of polarity" either, whatever you mean with game. It's not a game. Yes, there are a few things that I find wrong. Maybe consciousness doesn't know polarity, but we as human beings have some ethical values. If someone kills your neighbour to eat him, wouldn't you find that kind of "wrong" a little bit? I'm not someone going through life saying "this is right, this is wrong, this is right.." but on this one topic I don't see why I should stop finding it wrong for myself.

Btw, doing something wrong and being a bad person is not the same at all for me. You seemed to confuse both in your post, or maybe for you it's the same but for me it's not. If someone does something I find wrong, I don't think they're a bad person. I'm not "bad" for cooking meat. It's just wrong applied to me (notice, to me, not to others).

Now I don't know what I wanted to write anymore...

Oh yeah my mirroring interpretation... Well my bf condemns a lot of my recent decisions. As I met him, I was studying computer science. I broke up my studies for values reasons too, I wanted to do something meaningful with my heart to help others. He wasn't happy at all. Now he's not interested in what I do at all, as little as he's interested in my reasons for not cooking meat. I do a two-year schooling to become an animal healer, and additionally I dance a lot and learn about LoA and such things. He condemns this very much. He's angry too because instead of at least looking for some job I'm financially broke and volunteer at the animal shelter. And instead of sleeping with him at night I recently have such a chaotic biphasic sleep schedule. And instead of having proper meals with him I started grazing all day long. And.. and.. the list is long of things he doesn't like about my life. All this is not straight enough. I'm not the nice, reasonable part-time housewife he wants to have. And now, worst of all, I don't want to cook his holy meat any more! Well that's the limit!!!

So in my eyes my bf is the conservative, fearful part of myself that tells me "girl, study, look for a job, earn money, be normal! your values and passions are not as important as having a comfortable life, being financially safe, pleasing others and doing what you're expected to do."

That's how I see it...