I'm so sad....do you think it's absolutely my fault??

[Brutha]

(In person she's warmer....in fact the day before she called me just to say that she missed me and how happy she was that we were speaking.)

My point was that she was defensive because of your communication.

An excercise:
What is the difference between the following sentences: (the forum translates the text similies into animated ones but that doesn't change their meaning)
"it's been quite a while since I saw you here "
"it's been quite a while since I saw you here.....!!"
"it's been quite a while since I saw you here "
"it's been quite a while since I saw you here"
"it's been QUITE A WHILE since I saw you here"

They all have the same content, but they transmitt different energy.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by emeraldbaby

Zvipat, it wasn't completely your fault

emeraldbaby, being at fault (blame and shame) and being responsible (being the cause of your life) are not the same thing at all.

The gf has her own life to be responsible for, and maybe she's taking responsibility and maybe she's not. That doesn't matter for our good friend, Zvipat, though.

His questions, complaints, problems, frustrations in this relationship are ALL HIS. 100%. And he has 100% power to deal with them effectively and create a relationship he loves, regardless of other people's, including the gf's, actions.

Whether he stays in this relationship or leaves it, I think it's important to know that his complaints about her or attempts to get her to change have nothing to do with her, and everything to do with him.

And I think this thread is really resonating for people because most of can see how we try to weasel out of being 100% responsible for our lives by trying to blame or change others. There is no power in that! And I think most of us here, especially zvipat right now, are really interested in having the power to create a relationship that is loving, mutually beneficial, and brimming with growth. That's why I 'preach' taking 100% responsibility -- because that's how you get there.

[zpivat]

Originally Posted by emeraldbaby

Hi Brutha,

I do hear you. and I do believe in taking responsibility.

However, I just feel zvipat was still looking for acknowledgement...he stressed the same point (about his gf's constant irritability) for a couple of posts, and I wanted to acknowledge that so he can move on.

It seems that some people have grown from a lot of experience, from years of PD, from awareness training etc etc, and it just seems to me as if these people cannot remember what it was like to REALLY NOT KNOW WHAT TO DO...to really take the 1st step. At least that's what this thread made me feel...more judgemental and less encouraging than others.

I was once a miserable little ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ before I took responsibility for myself. I've treated some people badly for reasons unconnected to them. Because of my history, I tend to also think that the gf contributed to the problem. Sure Zvipat can do better at communicating, but he can't be the sole cause of her negative relationship with so many ppl (parents, ex's)? Surely she's responsible for that.

My point still is - Zvipat, it wasn't completely your fault, to feel anger, doubt, frustration etc. However, you did attract this gf into your life, there is a reason for that, and I hope you can explore and grow from it

Thanks for the kind words emeraldbaby. Yes this incident is more of an exception I think.....otherwise we are doing pretty well and we get along overall. We're not one of those couples that fight a lot (yesterday was my first time actually).
When we don't chat we do speak on the phone....sometimes up to 4 to 5 hours (if we're not too busy of course) just sharing some stories about our lives and having fun with each other .

[Boreas]

For me, the best mentality to have in life is one where we are willing to blame ourselves and give ourselves responsibility for everything in our lives...it is a much more powerful position to be in, as opposed to obsessing over what the other person did.

[zpivat]

Originally Posted by Brutha

My point was that she was defensive because of your communication.

An excercise:
What is the difference between the following sentences: (the forum translates the text similies into animated ones but that doesn't change their meaning)
"it's been quite a while since I saw you here "
"it's been quite a while since I saw you here.....!!"
"it's been quite a while since I saw you here "
"it's been quite a while since I saw you here"
"it's been QUITE A WHILE since I saw you here"

They all have the same content, but they transmitt different energy.

Brutha, trust me on this one... I know her very well, and that very sentence for sure didn't have any impact at all, and it's not the trigger of her irritation..... by the way when I typed that to her, it was understood as "it's been quite a while since I saw you here " and she knows this as well (I just know that she does), and she does it to me (i.e: types that kind of sentence too if we haven't talked for a while) too because we miss each other a lot......

[NotesMaeve]

See, I don't think you know her well. Understanding quells anger. Being misunderstood is angering. People who are combative are often misunderstood, and rather than talking to her about this, you seem to be assuming her emotions.

If she's exactly as you say and a hair trigger person, why take offense at her nature?

[Brutha]

Originally Posted by zpivat

Brutha, trust me on this one... I know her very well, and that very sentence for sure didn't have any impact at all, and it's not the trigger of her irritation..... by the way when I typed that to her, it was understood as "it's been quite a while since I saw you here " and she knows this as well (I just know that she does), and she does it to me (i.e: types that kind of sentence too if we haven't talked for a while) too because we miss each other a lot......

Again it is not about the content of the sentence.
Can you see the difference between the five sentences?
If she understands it that way, why didn't she said something like I miss you too?

Sure you can blame the technology for not transmitting her "true feelings" but "well yeah" doesn't sound very emotional.

[zpivat]

Originally Posted by NotesMaeve

If she's exactly as you say and a hair trigger person, why take offense at her nature?

That's an excellent point NotesMaeve; I guess I never looked at it that way. Wellll why take offence...hmm I guess to teach her a little "lesson" may be?? So far I've let it go, as you remember, and if I always let it go, I worried it might get worse (who knows...) so I just wanted to let her know that her easy irritation bugs me too.
When my parents were younger, for example....my dad used to be really short tempered towards my mum (he even used to hit her sometimes ) but my mum's strong and if she felt that it wasn't right, she fought back and made her feelings known. After years, my dad has become a much calmer person and these days is not much of a short tempered person anymore....well sometimes but in no way close to when he was young.....

By the way, I think that my dad might've been the reason why I'm so anal about keeping peace....when I was little it was so scary to see him getting angry to my mum or other persons, and as a result, I've promised myself that I would never quarrel or act rude to people, and that's why I can't stand fights, rudeness, irritations, bla bla....

[zpivat]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Again it is not about the content of the sentence.
Can you see the difference between the five sentences?
If she understands it that way, why didn't she said something like I miss you too?

That's a good logic, I agree with you....
Well the day before we just talked and admitted to how much we missed each other, and I guess may be she just didn't want to overdo it......
I'm like that too....it's not always that I respond to her emotional gestures, but we understand that we both feel the same way .

[emeraldbaby]

Hi Angela

Obviously I'm not at your level. From my vantage point (learning to be fully responsible), I just wanted to show some support...because it takes time to learn to be fully responsible...and in the mean time it could still hurt, since ppl in relationships are usually attached to a person or a particular outcome. e.g. say I'm a loving, caring person and my dad's an alcoholic...I'd want him to recover. I can't force my dad to change, and his life is ultimately his responsibility...but I'd still hurt...even though I know I'm responsible for my emotions.

That's not an excuse to not be fully responsible; however, PD is a learning process and I don't consider acknowledging bewilderment/frustration/pain etc (hence, don't blame urself to much) the same as weaseling out of something (no chance of that with this forum anyway ). It's much easier to move forward with all the good advice when a person isn't dwelling on his or her own shortcomings/failures.

[NotesMaeve]

Originally Posted by zpivat

That's an excellent point NotesMaeve; I guess I never looked at it that way. Wellll why take offence...hmm I guess to teach her a little "lesson" may be??

By the way, I think that my dad might've been the reason why I'm so anal about keeping peace....when I was little it was so scary to see him getting angry to my mum or other persons, and as a result, I've promised myself that I would never quarrel or act rude to people, and that's why I can't stand fights, rudeness, irritations, bla bla....

These two statements don't match up. You start something with her, blame her for all of it, and then say, "But I don't like to argue!" So you're doing exactly what your dad did - "teaching her a lesson," belittling her, making her feel like the biggest ♥♥♥♥♥ on the planet, but you'd NEVER act rude. You've talked about her like she's lower than ♥♥♥♥♥, emotionally out of control, and stupid. It's very hard for me to feel a lot of pity for you. Maybe she was kind of bitchy, but is it so impossible to think just maybe you were kind of a prick?

[zpivat]

Originally Posted by NotesMaeve

These two statements don't match up. You start something with her, blame her for all of it, and then say, "But I don't like to argue!" So you're doing exactly what your dad did - "teaching her a lesson," belittling her, making her feel like the biggest ♥♥♥♥♥ on the planet, but you'd NEVER act rude. You've talked about her like she's lower than ♥♥♥♥♥, emotionally out of control, and stupid. It's very hard for me to feel a lot of pity for you. Maybe she was kind of bitchy, but is it so impossible to think just maybe you were kind of a prick?

I don't think that I was THAT rude?! after the chat I called her too and we spoke nicely.......what I meant by "lesson" is telling her how I felt....not necessarily acting coarsely towards her (which I didn't).

Somehow I feel that some of you may have overanalysed the situation.....there's a reason why above the chat I wrote that little blurb, because I wanted to help you zone in to the situation. Writing on the net can be difficult to explain, and I just tried to explain the context clearly.
I asked a question. The answer didn't fully appear. I asked again for the second time, because of which she told me that I made her crazy.....simple as that!! It doesn't get any further than that......
Now, why I took offence at her "oh god you make me crazy", that's because that's not the reaction that I normally receive from people. I myself would never ever say that just caz someone asked me the same question twice.
Then I just told her that I didn't get it, and she came with her "whatever", which I interpreted as "I don't care about your explanation".

Just try to imagine simply this: you asked something to someone, for some reason you misunderstood it, then you asked for clarification, and it turned out they got pissed off, and when you try to explain, they act like they don't care....I mean, seriously, that's ALL that happened, and I know best because I experienced it. You won't be offended if it happened to you??
if I didn't paste my chat I'm pretty sure you would've seen it in a different angle......
That chat transcript (which I regret pasting) might've defeated the purpose of this thread and cause unnecessary speculations and biases of what's behind the scene......

Now I understand why psychics usually don't want to hear too much details about their clients' stories, because they cause too much "clutters" and biases.....

[Erki]

me: right.....

I think this is where you blew it. If I were you, I would have answered with a smilie and asked something like "and what is that lot? ". A lot more positive than a "right....." dontcha think?

After that, I really think that you over-explained it all and this peeved her off.

[Angela]

That's pretty classic for a child of an abusive parent. You learn that you can't really be straight with your feelings because it costs too much. You can't "reason" with an abusive person -- so you learn to bob and weave, advance and retreat, to blame others and yourself, to remove yourself, and to try to pretend everything's ok. You spend your childhood "perfecting" all your strategies, then you wake up as an adult and wonder why you feel so defensive in your relationships.

emeraldbaby, I agree with you -- acknowledging your feelings is not the same as weaseling out of responsibility. In fact, I think that in order to take 100% responsibility for your life, you MUST acknowledge your feelings, including the painful ones. And again, when I say "take responsibility", I'm NOT saying "blame yourself". You are so right, blaming yourself (or anyone else, either!) is not an effective way to move forward. What I was trying to point out was that by saying that the gf is also responsible, z would be giving away his (or her, sorry to presume your gender, zvipat) power to create a life and relationship (s)he loves. Blaming yourself is certainly not the same as taking responsibility for your life, and I don't recommend it. It's actually more weaseling out of taking responsibility for your life! "Weaseling" is: all the various strategies and techniques we have for avoiding taking responsibility in our lives. We've got a million of 'em!

I also don't think taking 100% responsibility is something you "learn" to do. Rather, it's something you practice. or not. It doesn't take time to do this; you can do it right now. Or not. It's really just a choice in each moment. Sometimes we get caught up in our old habitual ways of being that we have practiced so much! -- and it takes more presence to be aware of whether you're taking responsibility or not. One instance: in your posts, emeraldbaby, I notice that you seem to take care to assume personal responsibility -- you don't seem to get "activated" but rather you consider and respond, even when you feel strongly.

(and by the way, we are on the same level. we're both humans, we're both on this planet at the same time, we're both creating a life we love with a commitment to make a positive difference in this world. )

[Chado2423]

Question: What have you been doing lateley?
Answer: Alot

Yet it seems to me that this answer didn't suffice you, it probably also hurt her feelings when you asked again, as if you were trying to critique her every move. You ask again, and she says "I told you." She probably didn't feel like detailing everything that has been happening in her life at that particular moment. But if you guys talked friendly afterward, then that's good.

[zpivat]

Originally Posted by Chado2423

Question: What have you been doing lateley?
Answer: Alot

Yet it seems to me that this answer didn't suffice you, it probably also hurt her feelings when you asked again, as if you were trying to critique her every move. You ask again, and she says "I told you." She probably didn't feel like detailing everything that has been happening in her life at that particular moment. But if you guys talked friendly afterward, then that's good.

She told everything right away but I only got the message partially....

[Brutha]

Just try to imagine simply this: you asked something to someone, for some reason you misunderstood it, then you asked for clarification, and it turned out they got pissed off, and when you try to explain, they act like they don't care....I mean, seriously, that's ALL that happened, and I know best because I experienced it. You won't be offended if it happened to you??

No. I wouldn't feel attacked.
In addition you think that their was a certain type of emotion behind the sentence "you drive me crazy" that wasn't there.

I asked a question. The answer didn't fully appear.

The only thing that was a question in your starting post was: " I'm so sad....do you think it's absolutely my fault??"
The answer is yes, you are responsible for your outcome. I don't use the concept of blame and don't think in terms of "Who is to blame for the situation?". Angela also said that she findes the concept of blame irrevelant to this situation.

I mean, seriously, that's ALL that happened, and I know best because I experienced it.

Wrong. You sat at your computer and she sat at her computer. You had no chance to experience her reaction to your words in other ways than we (the text you posted).
In addition you have her account of having to defend herself for behaving that way, which isn't that much .

anyway, I sympathize with you. I hope you don't become one of those people who learn to curtail their action and speech just to avoid a negative reaction from their partner.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by zpivat

Wrong. It's not correct to say that I've been using some "strategy" to manipulate her or anything, simply because I have done nothing. Absolutely nothing. However, though, yesterday I got tired of it, and it was the very first time that I decided to pursue it, simply because I could no longer stand her short temper!
I mean, seriously, she even constantly fights with her mum and dad. Doesn't that tell you something??

I on the other hand don't fight and in fact never fight with anyone else; have lots of friends, and get along very well with everyone. It's only with her that I'm having this kind of issue.

Everybody has a strategy while communicating with other people. Most of the time it's subconscious. I didn't say you tried to manipulate her consciously and intentionally. But my opinion is that what you did in this chat is emotional blackmailing. I'll try to explain. Just a few examples...

me: Hi there!!!!!! ^^
it's been quite a while since I saw you here.....!!
me: I missed our chats
what've you been up to today??

general impression: you need her, you want energy/love/attention from her and you want to know a lot about her (control). But:

she: yup
she: well yeah
she: a lot

she doesn't give you what you want (why is not relevant at all), she doesn't answer in a way you like. And now we go:

me: right..... // you get cold
are you busy? //pressure attempt: why don't you talk more with me?
she: now no
just tired //she feels the pressure and gets defensive
me: what did you do? //pressure: you don't tell me enough, give me more info
(...)
me: but it's annoying and it upsets me when you say things like "oh god you make me crazy"
you get irritated really easily by small stuff....I don't understand why, and this is not the first time either....
//traduction: you're wrong, you say the wrong things, you behave wrong, and because of you I feel bad. (you should feel guilty and be nicer to me please)
(...)
me: Please be a little more considerate......
you could've said it more nicely....and as you can see, I did not get that message
//traduction:I am totally innocent and you should be nicer to me. you're not ok the way you behave.
(...)
me: I apologise if I offended you in any way....
but I just felt a little hurt too by what you said....
that's all
but please nevermind it okay??
I want to make peace now....let's not fight or get angry over this....
//traduction: I'm such a nice guy, you cannot be angry with me...
//I'm so reasonable, if you're not nice to me you're wrong
she: you're not the reason for me being okay or not
me: but you seem to get hurt by what I said.....
she: maybe
me: oh come on sweetheart!! =) =)
//traduction: I don't accept that I am not that important to you

Maybe you think I totally misinterpret everything. But look, it doesn't matter what you consciously intended to say. Fact is, when you don't get what you want, you put a lot of emotional pressure on her, tell her she's not ok the way she is, try to make her feel guilty, and present yourself as a reasonable victim. But everything very gently and softly and avoiding direct conflict. I'm sorry, but that IS emotional blackmailing.

I'm sure this is a reason why she got angry and is still angry. Nobody likes it to get put under pressure like this. It's not surprising she reacts defensive, and this has nothing to do with how she fights with someone else.

My opinion is that you didn't do it only this one time - I think it's a general pattern in your communication. Maybe it was the first time you were arguing, but you don't need to argue to do that, it can be done in a very subtle way while talking about nice things. You don't even have to talk to do that.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it's still my opinion. Especially after having seen how you react in this thread. Read this whole thread carefully, you will see that the way you reacted in the chat is about the same way you reacted in this thread. We told you a few things you didn't like, so you told us we're wrong, we miss the point, we don't understand you, we don't read carefully, and you tried to convince us that she's wrong. You told us a lot of bad things about her to show us how wrong she is. It's her, it's the internet, it's other things that irritated her... but not you, no, you're a victim and totally innocent. And now you're trying to convince us that in fact everything is ok, you like her, you're doing pretty well together... so we would stop arguing. Just like you told her in the chat "everything's ok now, yeah?! yeah?! peace??" So you say it's only with her you're having this kind of issues, but this is just not true. It's the same with us now. It's a general pattern.

Look, we're trying to help you. What you want to hear is "it's not your fault at all, she's wrong, poor you" But this wouldn't help you at all. I'm sorry if what I say sounds harsh. I'm not saying you're evil. You just need help. And lots of people do this every day, so it's a common thing, don't worry... Most emotionally manipulative people don't know they do that. They don't do it intentionally. They see themselves as the victim in the communication. It's a subconscious pattern they learnt as a child. Probably in their family they learnt that this is the only way to get the love and attention they needed. After what you told about your family, I'm not surprised at all. We all need love and attention, and you learnt some communication strategies in your childhood that were necessary in your childhood, but not appropriate any more now.

Yes, maybe I'm totally wrong. You could just think a little bit about it without rejecting immediately this possibility, if you want to.