Schizophrenia link with spirituality

[CLOCKWORKSC]

I recently went through a traumatic period in my life, where everything i did seemed pointless and meaningless, where i couldnt see the point in life.
for everything that i belived in spiritually was taking me down the wrong path.

The doctor stated i have schizophrenia as i am delusional with what life is.
i tried to explain to him that the life we live is pointless as tyhis isnt the real life that when we die we pass over top the real world.

i am on these tablets and weekly sessions with some shrink

am i really mental , i have tried to explain to them ( docs ) that im not really suffering Depression, just a confusion in reality.

Do i lie to them about how i feel spirituallity is , so i dont get thrown away in hospital or tell tehm the truth about how i see life.


daniel

[rawxstasy]

Can you get a second opinion? Usually schizophrenia hear voices talking to them.

I wonder if he thinks you are delusional because you said this isn't real life. Usually schizophrenics are really set in what they believe and are convinced that what they see and hear is real. They are not open to any other suggestions about reality.

[irfan]

The best way to challenge a medical diagnosis is to find another doctor who disagrees with the first one. As with all medical diagnosis, if you have the resources for a second opinion, you may get a better result with the second doctor.

I can't in good conscience recommend that you explicitly lie to a doctor. However, you may choose to prefer not to discuss your spiritual evolution with them in great depth: they usually don't have the time for it and aren't particularly interested. I think a lot of people get better value out of a well chosen psychologist or spiritual advisor.

Still, I do believe some people with serious mental illnesses benefit from medication. Also, that some mental illnesses result in lack of insight into your condition. That's why I think finding another doctor might be worthwhile.

Unfortunately, I think your financial resources will have a big impact on the quality of diagnosis and treatment. If you are going through public health services, it's often easiest for them to diagnose and prescribe as quickly as possible. If you are paying them by the hour out of your own pocket, they generally take more trouble and are prepared to listen and explore other possibilities.

If you get several doctors all confirming the first doctor's diagnosis, you might really want to weigh the possible benefits of treatment against the risks of defying the medical and psychiatric system. It takes abnormal strength to defy the weight of medical opinion.

[Merrick1]

Esalen: An Interview with Dick Price

[elucidate]

Doctors these days are too ready to just diagnose someone without really delving into their history or connect with them and try and understand where they are coming from...plus, you should be aware that they all have a deal going with pharmaceutical companies to see who can prescribe the most anti-depressants/ anti-psychotics, and whoever 'wins' gets an all expenses paid vacation to the Bahamas, or somewhere equally fantastic, with their entire family for a month, once a year...so it's a good idea to get a second and third opinion if necessary.

It sounds more like you are having some sort of existential crisis. I went through something similar when I was 21. I didn't go to any doctors though because I don't trust mainstream doctors.

Do you feel like you are mental? Maybe you just need someone to listen, like a counselor?

Maybe this is just a time in your life where you are experiencing some sort of spiritual 'emergence' and it feels so alienating or far away from what most people are going through?

Introspection on your own part might yield better insights than just taking some strangers word for it, or worse, taking pills that might make you sick when you weren't really sick to begin with.

As irfin stated though, if you really do need them, meds can really save a persons life, and they have. It all depends on your individual brain chemistry though...it's a bit of a game of russian roulette really.

Some people will really benefit, and others will become suicidal from the pills and might do something drastic that might not have happened if they hadn't taken them. You can't really know until you try them for yourself.

[irfan]

By the way, you are unlikely to be confined in a hospital against your will for long periods of time, unless you have a very rich family and they want you locked away and will pay for it. Hospitals in most developed countries are too overworked even to meet the needs of patients in crisis, let along provide free long-term housing. You'll only get locked up if you are assessed as at serious, acute risk to yourself or others.

You said you talk to a "shrink". Does that mean psychologist or psychiatrist? There's a big difference. Psychologists tend, on average, to have much less power and to be much nicer people. If you are seeing a psychiatrist, then maybe ask to be referred to a psychologist for counselling.

Meds for schizophrenia should absolutely be a last resort. I know cases that go both ways: I have a cousin who couldn't live without them. On the other hand, I had a very good friend who was going through a really bad patch, very paranoid, although not really hallucinating (not much, anyway): he was prescribed the full double barrel dose of every brain drug they could throw at him. He chucked them all away and is now perfectly fine, without any further interventions.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by irfan

Meds for schizophrenia should absolutely be a last resort. I know cases that go both ways: I have a cousin who couldn't live without them. On the other hand, I had a very good friend who was going through a really bad patch, very paranoid, although not really hallucinating (not much, anyway): he was prescribed the full double barrel dose of every brain drug they could throw at him. He chucked them all away and is now perfectly fine, without any further interventions.

Allen Ginsburg swears that LSD cured him of schizophrenia, and it was originally developed for that purpose I think? It can bring to the surface any latent schizophrenia in a person...though really, I think we are all schizo to some degree.

Most people just block out a lot of the voices they hear or tune them out with music and t.v and distractions, but it's often parts of themselves trying to communicate with themselves, I think anyway, I could be wrong. Inner dialogue if you will.

Then there is the brain deteriorated schizophrenia, which is different alltogether.

[irfan]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Allen Ginsburg swears that LSD cured him of schizophrenia, and it was originally developed for that purpose I think? It can bring to the surface any latent schizophrenia in a person...though really, I think we are all schizo to some degree

Elucidate, I think acid is probably good for almost everyone except schizophrenics. Even weed seems to have a bad effect. But like you say, it's often hard to say what is schizophrenia and what isn't.

I don't think just hearing voices is enough to get you labelled as schizophrenic. It's also feeling utterly overwhelmed or controlled or disturbed or freaked out by them. If you get on with your voices it's ok. But a lot of people really don't and sometimes it screws them up bad.

[irfan]

I've talked to healers and shamans in Indonesia, they are quite common here. Quite often they deal with people who would be described as mentally ill anywhere else, but here they are considered possessed by a spirit. Even so, I remember one healer was talking about one of his patients and he said "He's not possesed. He's just crazy. He should go and see a doctor."

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by irfan

Elucidate, I think acid is probably good for almost everyone except schizophrenics. Even weed seems to have a bad effect. But like you say, it's often hard to say what is schizophrenia and what isn't.

I hear you, and logically that would make sense to most people. I don't think I would take LSD if I had schizophrenia. I was just saying that for Allen Ginsberg, it apparently cured him of all symptoms, and that it was originally created for this purpose, if I remember correctly?

Both weed and acid can bring out schizophrenia in people who already had a predisposition to it...so it's not something that usually is known at the time, until they take it, and then they start to find out it was in them to start with.

I'm not sure how it works though? The human brain is a wonder in itself, so for one person acid could be a god send to stop the overwhelming voices and catatonia, and for another it's a trip to hell.

I don't think just hearing voices is enough to get you labelled as schizophrenic. It's also feeling utterly overwhelmed or controlled or disturbed or freaked out by them. If you get on with your voices it's ok. But a lot of people really don't and sometimes it screws them up bad.

The people I witnessed when I did volunteer work in the Mental Health field, were so consumed by what was going on in their heads, they couldn't move or shower themselves. Sometimes all they could do was sit in their chair all day, day after day and smoke cigarettes until someone (us) would come and get them to shower and clean their ashtrays. They were pretty large ashtrays I can tell you, and ALWAYS filled to the brim.

[irfan]

Originally Posted by elucidate

The people I witnessed when I did volunteer work in the Mental Health field, were so consumed by what was going on in their heads, they couldn't move or shower themselves. Sometimes all they could do was sit in their chair all day, day after day and smoke cigarettes until someone (us) would come and get them to shower and clean their ashtrays. They were pretty large ashtrays I can tell you, and ALWAYS filled to the brim.

Yeah, for some reason, there's a link between smoking and schizophrenia. Some people say that it's just because they have a lot of time to kill, but other people say there's something in the nicotine that seems to make them feel better. There was a guy who ran a forum called crazymeds.org or something like that, a self-help group. He recommended a pipe or nicotine patches.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by irfan

I've talked to healers and shamans in Indonesia, they are quite common here. Quite often they deal with people who would be described as mentally ill anywhere else, but here they are considered possessed by a spirit. Even so, I remember one healer was talking about one of his patients and he said "He's not possesed. He's just crazy. He should go and see a doctor."

This is where it gets dangerous I think.

On one hand, it has always been documented that the shamanic state is so similar to the state a person is in when they are suffering from schizophrenia, that some systems have totally redefined the condition as being instead a necessary step towards becoming more spiritually developed...which in one way could actually help the sufferer deal with what they are going through, if they think it's something for their ultimate benefit, rather than label themselves as crazy and internalize that, and get labelled from society around them every day.

On the other hand, telling someone who is seriously ill that they are posessed, and performing bizarre rituals on them instead of getting them real professional help with possibly medication that will help them deal with it, is tant amount to ritual abuse in my book.

It's sort of like how real exorcists 20 years ago would deem a hysterical woman as possessed and beat the devil out of her, when it turned out she had schizophrenia and would have benefitted more from hospitalized care and rest.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by irfan

Yeah, for some reason, there's a link between smoking and schizophrenia. Some people say that it's just because they have a lot of time to kill, but other people say there's something in the nicotine that seems to make them feel better. There was a guy who ran a forum called crazymeds.org or something like that, a self-help group. He recommended a pipe or nicotine patches.

Actually it has to do with the chemical effect the nicotine has when combined with the meds themselves.

I learnt this from a worker in the field, and read about it as well. Nicotine and anti-psychotics create an extremely pleasurable state for the person on meds, which is why they chain smoke.

They do also have a lot of time to kill though. When you are catatonic, there's not much to do.

[msmanifest]

Originally Posted by CLOCKWORKSC

i tried to explain to him that the life we live is pointless as tyhis isnt the real life that when we die we pass over top the real world.




daniel

I know how you feel because I have felt that way too. This is one of the defensive mechanism of the our psychology. When there is too much pain or suffering , we start believing this way. At least this is how it started for me. Lucky for me I had a busy job and an elderly mother to look after. I knew I was going through depression. My mother suggested I visit a psychiatrist. But I knew they will simply give me drugs to make me feel like a zombie.
I did take anti-depressants for a week. I will be feeling drowsy through out the day. I used to take endless cups of tea to stay focussed on my work.
And the next day it will start all over again.
I still feel this way sometimes.The feeling that life is really a play and I will be leaving for my own place soon which my real home. The feeling that I really do not belong here............This is not my real home.
And now I feel I need to work on my root chakra to be more grounded.
Are you recovering from any personal tragedy?
This will explain a lot of what is happening to you and how you are feeling.
In fact I was leaning towards Budhism and I had started living a dead live because I thought If I want something and either don't get it or lose it I feel pain. So best thing is not to wish for anything.
But I know a life without any dreams and desires is a lifeless one.
And that is how I got into LOA.

[desertrat]

Your post seams rational , I agree with the others , get another doctor. I do see a point to life . desert rat

[alphamind]

IMO it was unnecessary to go and spill your guts about reality like that at a doctor. Doctors will only lock you up when they hear that s**t, I'd stay away from them regarding these matters.

I've always been thinking about the nature of schizophrenia. Is there really any 'disorder' in existence? People label people with a psychological disorder who are different or perceive reality differently from the masses. Why not label cats and dogs as schizophrenic while we're at it.

All is energy and each individual receives the information subjectively. If you're feeling weird, that's just the way you personally receive information from what is and how you consequently perceive your reality. If you don't like it or it's confusing you your better off working on aspects of your being you need to change, which there are many tools for. Being prescribed on drugs and having a doctor thinking he's sane and that you're in need for help isn't a good idea. Try not to fall for that.

[desertrat]

Doctors like to put labels on people , then they can say we have a drug to cure that. They get "kick backs " from the drug co. So why not label ever one with a problem and sell lots of drugs ? There are a very few people with very real problems , and drugs do help them . Most people can deal with life with out drugs or the crap some doctors put out . desert rat

[irfan]

Originally Posted by alphamind

I've always been thinking about the nature of schizophrenia. Is there really any 'disorder' in existence? People label people with a psychological disorder who are different or perceive reality differently from the masses. Why not label cats and dogs as schizophrenic while we're at it.

I used to say things like that, once upon a time. Until my cousin developed serious, difficult-to-treat, chronic schizophrenia. Make no mistake, it's a real disease. And it's NOT just about "perceiving things differently". It's about not being able to cope with perceiving things differently. It's about feeling totally crushed and unable to trust your thoughts and beliefs and perceptions.

If you hear voices and they give you good advice, you are very lucky and gifted. If they tell you that God wants you to poop in the coffee machine, you've probably got a problem.

[hehe ... I had to edit this because this bulletin board doesn't like the more expressive word I used for "poop". It's the brown stuff in your intestines, for those who don't get it.]

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by elucidate

This is where it gets dangerous I think.

On one hand, it has always been documented that the shamanic state is so similar to the state a person is in when they are suffering from schizophrenia, that some systems have totally redefined the condition as being instead a necessary step towards becoming more spiritually developed...which in one way could actually help the sufferer deal with what they are going through, if they think it's something for their ultimate benefit, rather than label themselves as crazy and internalize that, and get labelled from society around them every day.

On the other hand, telling someone who is seriously ill that they are posessed, and performing bizarre rituals on them instead of getting them real professional help with possibly medication that will help them deal with it, is tant amount to ritual abuse in my book.

It's sort of like how real exorcists 20 years ago would deem a hysterical woman as possessed and beat the devil out of her, when it turned out she had schizophrenia and would have benefitted more from hospitalized care and rest.

I agree that this is dangerous territory. New Age "woowooism" would have us believe that there is no such thing as mental illness and that all people who suffer from delusions are simply experiencing an alternate reality which they should be allowed to experience in whatever way is functional and safe for them and those around them.

That's crap.

Mostly.

The problem is that much of the New Age mysticism is based on real indigineous traditions that are literally tens of thousands of years old. Say what you will, but those traditions hold immense wisdom - most of which we've either forgotten or simply thrown away in the name of "science" and "rationality."

New Agers have latched on to bits and pieces of these traditions and have molded them into something at once both unrecognizable and potentially dangerous.

In my tradition, people often "walk in two worlds." We recognize that there are indeed many realities and that one may experience multiple realities simultaneously.

This can be confusing for someone who wasn't raised with the tools to navigate these realities and sometimes, people cannot distinguish between one reality and another.

This inability to make the distinction is what the wasicu call "schizophrenia."

There are several ways to treat this confusion. One way - the way my teachers use(d) - is to provide the individual with the tools necessary to make distinctions and to help guide them through the various realities they are experiencing.

The wasicu way is simply to make the person NOT experience multiple realities and usually the only way they know to do that is with chemicals that dull the senses and attemps to block the experience of more than one reality at a time.

Either way can be effective. And either way can lead to greater confusion and distress by the patient.

Clockworksc: I think you should let your doctors know how you feel and not try to keep it from them. If they cannot accept your position, then I agree, you should do as others have suggested and seek other advice.

At the end of the day, only you can determine if a doctor or any method of treatment is truly helping you.

[ButterflyWoman]

I suggest you do a Google search on the term "spiritual emergency" and "spiritual emergence". This is a condition actually known to psychology/psychiatry, but often overlooked because psychiatrists, being medical doctors, always look for a medical cause, and most psychologists are not even aware of what "spiritual emergency" is, even though it's listed in the DSM-IV.

Once you're familiar with these terms and symptoms and signs and such, see if you can get a second opinion.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Mato Kinze

I agree that this is dangerous territory. New Age "woowooism" would have us believe that there is no such thing as mental illness and that all people who suffer from delusions are simply experiencing an alternate reality which they should be allowed to experience in whatever way is functional and safe for them and those around them.

That's crap.

Mostly.

The problem is that much of the New Age mysticism is based on real indigineous traditions that are literally tens of thousands of years old. Say what you will, but those traditions hold immense wisdom - most of which we've either forgotten or simply thrown away in the name of "science" and "rationality."

New Agers have latched on to bits and pieces of these traditions and have molded them into something at once both unrecognizable and potentially dangerous.

Yes, and another factor is that many of these so called shamans 'earnt' their credentials from someone who may not have even been a real shaman, at a weekend "become a shaman" workshop which they forked out a small fortune for, with very little background knowledge or understanding on their belt, so there are loads of people out there calling themselves shamans that may be very convincing to someone who is troubled and vulnerable and not sure what is the solution to their issues so they put their faith in these people, usually for a hefty fee and it can do them more damage than they originally started with.

[Andras]

I think your doctor is a quack, get a second opinion. I strongly encourage you to fight on on and keep hope. I wish you the strength and hope. If you like your shrink keep it but stress the fact that you are normal and sometimes talking it out might do you good. Having said that; I think talking about other worlds might alarm them as you being perceived as suicidal and that is dangerous, keep this thought to yourself. I do not think suicide is the answer but it is none of my business. However, I am strongly urging you to NEVER talk about this to your therapist if you value your freedom and wish to avoid being institutionalized.

Originally Posted by CLOCKWORKSC

I recently went through a traumatic period in my life, where everything i did seemed pointless and meaningless, where i couldnt see the point in life.
for everything that i belived in spiritually was taking me down the wrong path.

The doctor stated i have schizophrenia as i am delusional with what life is.
i tried to explain to him that the life we live is pointless as tyhis isnt the real life that when we die we pass over top the real world.

i am on these tablets and weekly sessions with some shrink

am i really mental , i have tried to explain to them ( docs ) that im not really suffering Depression, just a confusion in reality.

Do i lie to them about how i feel spirituallity is , so i dont get thrown away in hospital or tell tehm the truth about how i see life.


daniel

[TuningIn]

the term "schizophrenia" means, "split-mind".

Sounds to me you're mind is split. Split between what though? Insanity and rationality? Are you really crazy? .... Or, is your mind trying to hold two opposing opinions together at once, like two positive ends of a magnent that if you let go of, they will repel one another?......

I know what you are dealing with. The problem is this, and ONLY this.... You know what you know, and you know that "they" (Doctors, parents, friends, anybody really who would rather deny the reality of what life is and how "fake" this matrix is that we are trapped in) know somewhere in the back of their mind the truth, but they simply refuse to see it..... Your mind is split between what you see with your eyes, and their words which attempt to tell you that what you see is not the reality... But how should they know? Are they you? Do they get it? And furthermore, who gives them this right to sit on the throne of judgment and declare what is and/or what isn't.

In essence, be still and know that he is God.

People are always afraid of what they cannot understand. Don't be afraid, because you understand.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by TuningIn

the term "schizophrenia" means, "split-mind".

Sounds to me you're mind is split. Split between what though? Insanity and rationality? Are you really crazy? .... Or, is your mind trying to hold two opposing opinions together at once, like two positive ends of a magnent that if you let go of, they will repel one another?......

I know what you are dealing with. The problem is this, and ONLY this.... You know what you know, and you know that "they" (Doctors, parents, friends, anybody really who would rather deny the reality of what life is and how "fake" this matrix is that we are trapped in) know somewhere in the back of their mind the truth, but they simply refuse to see it..... Your mind is split between what you see with your eyes, and their words which attempt to tell you that what you see is not the reality... But how should they know? Are they you? Do they get it? And furthermore, who gives them this right to sit on the throne of judgment and declare what is and/or what isn't.

In essence, be still and know that he is God.

People are always afraid of what they cannot understand. Don't be afraid, because you understand.

All this I would agree with, AND there's the subject of how sane the person diagnosing you really is. Just because they have a degree doesn't mean they are necessarily sane.

I don't think it's any coincidence that there is a saying for psychiatrists that goes, "Most pyschiatrists are crazier than their patients."

It's the perfect cover really, projecting all your own craziness onto some vulnerable person who thinks there is something wrong with them when really they may just be seeing things the way they really are!

I think schizophrenic people are really just a bit more sensitive than your average person and perceive things that as the person above stated, are really there, but that most people are so busy distracting themselves from with all the crap we are bombarded with, that they prefer to just write them off as crazy instead of trying to understand them.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by CLOCKWORKSC

I recently went through a traumatic period in my life, where everything i did seemed pointless and meaningless, where i couldnt see the point in life.
for everything that i belived in spiritually was taking me down the wrong path.

The doctor stated i have schizophrenia as i am delusional with what life is.
i tried to explain to him that the life we live is pointless as tyhis isnt the real life that when we die we pass over top the real world.

i am on these tablets and weekly sessions with some shrink

am i really mental , i have tried to explain to them ( docs ) that im not really suffering Depression, just a confusion in reality.

Do i lie to them about how i feel spirituallity is , so i dont get thrown away in hospital or tell tehm the truth about how i see life.


daniel

You're not going to be committed unless you pose a danger to yourself or others. Spirituality is rife with confusion and most often unable to be communicated properly no matter how badly you want someone else to understand. If you're genuinely falling to pieces and feel like there is a possibility of injuring yourself or others, continue to seek help but take others opinions with a grain of salt. Life is indeed meaningless. That doesn't mean in any shape or form that it can't be enjoyed. Life is simply at play with itself. You're not living life, life is living you! Sit back and enjoy the ride.

[Harmonium]

"Life is indeed meaningless."

You sure? I think it probably serves a purpose or two.

[localrobert]

I have been diagnosed with it. Yet when I experienced my deal I did see things and hear things but I really thought they where kinda cool and would like to get them back. The thing that tended to get to me where the "delusions". So I got on a few meds (not alot) and things are chill.


I would be interested in a place like the A.R.E. Center but my hunch is that they are not founded on the principals layed down by Edgar Cayce.

[lycan]

Originally Posted by elucidate

As irfin stated though, if you really do need them, meds can really save a persons life, and they have.

No publicly known med has ever demonstrated the ability to save a person's life. All they do is change its (life's) quality. If you believe otherwise, you are delusional.

[lycan]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Actually it has to do with the chemical effect the nicotine has when combined with the meds themselves.

I learnt this from a worker in the field, and read about it as well. Nicotine and anti-psychotics create an extremely pleasurable state for the person on meds, which is why they chain smoke.

They do also have a lot of time to kill though. When you are catatonic, there's not much to do.

This may also explain why they are catatonic and don't shower. They are too high on their meds to care. They care enough to make the effort to smoke. This kind of behavior is typical of drug addicts.

[shoshoni]

Society has advanced in leaps and bounds during the last 50 years. There have been great medical advances, but the human mind still remains a mystery. In this area, science is still in it's infancy. Many misdiagnoses have and still do occur when it comes to illnesses of the brain.

My cousin was diagnosed with schizophrenia when he was a teenager. At the age of 17, his parents had him committed to an institution. In his twenties, he died in the institution of an aneurysm. It is my belief that he was misdiagnosed with schizophrenia when he really had a genetic malformation in the brain that caused these symptoms.

I base this assumption on medical history of other people in my family. My grandfather also died of a brain aneurysm (later in life). Most of his adult life, he suffered from extreme headaches. When he had these headaches, he would bleed from one of his ears. He had seen many experts and no one could help him. This was before the time of MRIs and the like.

My mother has had seizures since I was born. For many years they labeled them as epilepsy. But for many years, the doctors were baffled, because unlike most epileptics, her brain did not show any abnormal activity during her seizures. Then in the early 80"s her neurologist was looking at her brain ex ray and comparing it to older ex-rays. What he thought was just a scratch on the ex-ray, appeared in the same spot on the older ex-rays as well. At that time there were only 3 MRIs in the country. The neurologist sent her to the nearest MRI location to have a brain scan. It revealed an extra blood vessel that ran through her brain. It was a major blood vessel, but very thin walled. The collapse of the blood vessel is the cause of her seizures. Because of it's location, it is inoperable. But she has been warned that she will probably die of a brain aneurysm. As she gets older, the vessel will loose elasticity and eventually leak.

I believe that all three of these problems were caused from the same brain malformation. Of course I have no proof.